From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #401 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, October 4 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 401 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Science vs Religion, njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Science vs Religion, njc [] Aliens, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Bush's Hometown Newspaper Endorses Kerry NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] For the Roses is better than Blue [KindTaper@aol.com] "Refuge Of the Roads", hour long video [] website NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Science vs Religion, njc ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Aliens, njc ["mike pritchard" ] Today's Library Links: October 4 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #280 (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Science vs Religion, njc ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:38:18 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Science vs Religion, njc Kakki wrote: > To, me science and religion are not incompatible, nor are the various > theories on the origins of creation incompatible with belief in a > Creator. > I have come to think that the creation and the creator are one and the same. Everything is interconnected and yes, I think there is a logic or design to it all. Whatever devised that logic runs through the whole from the smallest detail to the collective immensity of the entire universe. You can split an atom and still have something left. Split what remains and there is still something smaller. Split that and there will be something smaller still and so forth ad infinitum. At the same time you can look up at the night sky and see millions of points of light that signify the existence of celesital bodies at distances that stretch the human imagination beyond its limit and be reasonably sure that there is something beyond those and beyond the beyond, also to an infinite degree. We can never with our limited capacity be able to comprehend the scope or the nature of the whole that we are a part of. To me, religion is a system of metaphor, some crude, some elaborately intricate that attempts to explain what is unexplainable. What we seek to understand is both too inifinitesimally small and too ungraspably immense at the same time to gain any kind of true perspective. It is beyond the scope of our comprehension. Science continues to pursue a logical approach, observing cause and effect, trying to interpret the traces of the past that are left behind, attempting to find explanations for what occurs in the present and to project what might happen in the future. Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching, if you will. Spiritual leaders probe the histories and cultural myths of all the diverse peoples of the planet, looking for enlightenment as well. Perhaps we move a small, nearly immeasurable bit closer to understanding. But, in my opinion, what we seek to know is unknowable. But since we are each a small piece of the whole, we are driven to seek answers and like Grace Slick once wrote, there are things I've never seen that I believe. So we write, we paint, we read, we make music, we pray, we commune with and try to understand one another, trying to bring order, trying to make sense, trying to understand ourselves. Do you ever wonder if anyone else perceives reality in quite the same way as you do? We can't get inside of another person's head. What if I were to suddenly inhabit Kakki's consciousness and discover that what is red to me is green to her? What if we are each of us a universe in and of ourselves with our own individual realities? Or maybe you are all nothing more than elaborate creations that I have chosen to populate my own particular illusion of life with and there is nothing outside of what I perceive as real. I'm not saying that I believe any of this but my thoughts run along such strange lines from time to time. Like Judy Collins wrote, I sometimes feel as if I'm imprisoned in my bones behind the isinglass windows of my eyes and I wonder sometimes if my view is at all like anyone else's and if there is anyway of our truly comprehending one another's thoughts and feelings. I agree with Laurent and Kakki that there is a spark that is necessary to create life and that it requires something more than the right mix of chemicals under the right conditions to ignite. That life essence leaves our bodies at death but it does not cease to exist. Another idea I have played with in my head is that once we leave our physical bodies, we are free to go anywhere and to any time that we want and experience anything that we desire. For instance, I could go back in time and experience a real, live performance by Billie Holiday or witness some great historical event. I suppose that kind of ties in with the idea of collective consciousness which is something else I find intriguing. It's been interesting and fun to read the thoughts expressed on these subjects. I don't pretend to have a definitive answer and mean no disrespect to anyone else's belief. Mark E. in Seattle still experiencing some pain in the right side of his ass - which some of you might see as a kind of poetic justice. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:09:56 -0400 From: Subject: Science vs Religion, njc Laurent, I'm enjoying this thread! For me, science explains the way God works. His brush strokes are described. Science is fairly mute on the universe before the Big Bang. In that moment, word became flesh, eh? If you want the details, you have science. If you don't, you have Genesis. He did not invent sex right away so bacteria were all He had. Once He figured out Act 2, plants and animals sprang up from the Miracle that had always been there, lying dormant. His universe is so fertile, He can dream stuff up as He goes along. If God was a musician, He'd be a jazz improvisor. I have no trouble with the metaphors in the Old Testament. Science is a descriptive metaphor for physical details. It's there if you want it. One man's miracle by chance over epochs is another man's miracle by Creator, when He's good and ready. Lama From: "Laurent Olszer" >First, on the topic that we're all stardust and carbon (Jerry's argument), if the structure of carbon had been 0.01% different from what it is, polymers could not have formed and life would not exist, period. Again, what's the probability that carbon would be exactly what it is? Second, the big bang could happen because energy was transformed mostly into hydrogen. The next molecule down the chain that is very close in structure is iron. Can't really see an iron universe expanding, except the Matrix. So the big bang itself was a close call. Third, my favorite, life on earth. Picture this: big bang is 14 billion years ago. Earth is 4 billion years old. By the time Earth cools down below 1000C (boiling point) and oceans form: 3.8 billion years ago. LIFE: 3-3.5 billion years ago. Now this is the 1st amazing thing: life appeared very fast, almost immediately (300 million years is nothing)!> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:28:33 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Aliens, njc >But since the Earth has been "visited" for a long time, you could show me some alien proof and I'll believe., Dubya, jeb, rummy, cheney, wolfowitz, etc--- all cold evil aliens ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:44:12 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Bush's Hometown Newspaper Endorses Kerry NJC Bush's Hometown Newspaper Endorses Kerry CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - The newspaper in President Bush's adopted hometown of Crawford threw its support on Tuesday behind Bush's Democratic rival, Sen. John Kerry. The weekly Lone Star Iconoclast criticized Bush's handling of the war in Iraq and for turning budget surpluses into record deficits. The editorial also criticized Bush's proposals on Social Security and Medicare. "The publishers of The Iconoclast endorsed Bush four years ago, based on the things he promised, not on this smoke-screened agenda," the newspaper said in its editorial. "Today, we are endorsing his opponent, John Kerry." It urged "Texans not to rate the candidate by his hometown or even his political party, but instead by where he intends to take the country." Bush spends many of his weekends and holidays at his Crawford, Texas, ranch. The Iconoclast's publisher and editor-in-chief, W. Leon Smith, said the newspaper is sent to Bush's ranch each week. "But I don't know if he reads it," Smith said. The Kerry campaign welcomed the endorsement in an email to reporters. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:49:52 -0400 From: Subject: DJRD, 100% JC You probably already noticed that Joni slaps too. Joni does it alone on Overture. It becomes a real dialog on many other songs, especially the ones on MINGUS. If you play just "Overture", then immediately play the intro to "God Must Be A Boogie Man", you'll hear the dialog. Joni & Jaco "bark" at each other, like dogs, with slapping. I think it's very special. I love the collaborations on THOSL, DJRD, HEJIRA, and MINGUS most of all. (I love the ones on BLUE too but the jazz influenced era is in another league to my ears.) To me, this whole era is special although many on the list think HEJIRA stands above the others. All the best, Jim From: michael.cathyb@optusnet.com.au >I was listening to DJRD yesterday in the quite night and I noticed for the first time what Jaco is doing with his bass. Before he plays a note and slides down the neck he is either tapping his string or the pick up, playing what sort of sounds like some kind of percussion.> [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment with a content-type header it could not parse.] [Content-Type: null; name="replyAll"] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 00:05:14 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: For the Roses is better than Blue At least that's my opinion. I love every song on both of them, but to me, "Blue" is overrated by some as her best work. I think that "Blue" was the end of her folkie period, and "For The Roses" was a foreshadow of what was ahead. It doesn't have all of the production of "Court and Spark", which is also wonderful start to finish, yet it's very heartfelt and simple, like many of the songs on Blue. It's the perfect Joni LP. Have a nice week. Wes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 0:11:23 -0400 From: Subject: "Refuge Of the Roads", hour long video You have "Miles of Ailes" and "Shadows and Light" but do you have "Refuge Of The Roads"? The first 2 are available on CD but the 3rd is only on DVD, an hour long video. Like the other titles, ROTR has some thunder-struck moments. I won't catalog them now because I don't want to spoil the shock of finding them for yourself. I bought ROTR on DVD this week and it does not dissapoint. 'Nuff said, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 21:32:43 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: website NJC Marian, thanks for that excellent website! http://www.bushfilter.com/ For those who are voting for kerry but have reservations, I highly recommend this link: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/093004A.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:25:17 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Science vs Religion, njc Kakki said >>I have read some theories that the earth was "planted" to some degree from visitors/colonizers from other planets/galaxies. Some theorize that the four races came from four different extraterrestrial locations. Sounds plausible to me.<< Hi Kakki I haven't heard the 'planting' theory but am inclined to disbelieve it. As for the 'four races' coming from 'four different extraterrestrial locations' I have to say that everything I have read on this matter (and obviously I have not read everything) suggests that there is in fact only one 'race', the human race, and the four 'races' (or five, depending on who you read) are in fact variations of the human race, much as Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, French etc are derived from Latin. Stephen Jay Gould, Ashley Montague and Richard Lewontin would be excellent places to look into this if anyone were interested. 'Four different extraterrestrial locations'? What are the probabilities of that happening? Sounds extremely implausible to me. mike in barcelona np - dogs die in hot cars - please describe yourself ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:37:45 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Aliens, njc Laurent wrote >>I can't show you G_d, only His creation.<< If you cannot show me G_d, why should I believe you when you say you can show me His creation? What is 'His' about His creation? What validity does your statement have? mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 02:17:43 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: October 4 On October 4 the following article was published: 1998: "The Hissing of a Living Legend" - New York Times (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=231 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:34:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #280 (njc) Hi Bill! > What a thrill it was when Kakki approached Van > and offered him a fine cigar... (I forget the > brand, maybe Kakki could remember). A big fat Cohiba ;-) The previous night when I went out for a cigarette there, one of Van's associate's was razzing me about not having a cigar for Van so we obliged him the following night - heehee. > That was an incredible weekend It sure was and I think of it often. But didn't you and some of the gang actually swim in the Bel Air hotel pool and enjoys cocktails with Van and Shana during the day while I was imprisoned at work? ;-) What a time! Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:20:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Science vs Religion, njc Mike wrote: > I haven't heard the 'planting' theory but am inclined to disbelieve it. As for > the 'four races' coming from 'four different extraterrestrial locations' I > have to say that everything I have read on this matter (and obviously I have > not read everything) suggests that there is in fact only one 'race', the human > race, and the four 'races' (or five, depending on who you read) are in fact > variations of the human race, much as Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, French etc > are derived from Latin. Regardless of theories or whether different groups came here from different origins, I also believe that these groups are all part of the human race. How else could we easily breed with each other regardless of variations in physical characteristics? It is just plausible to me that the human race could have addresses other than planet earth. No harm in wondering. Kakki - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #401 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)