From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #395 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 30 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 395 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL ["Ron" ] re: (NJC) speaking of JMDL recommendations ["c Karma" ] writing on Joni in high school ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Our Joan - A wise woman ahead of her times, again [Warrenkeith91354@a] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [colin ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [colin ] Re: writing on Joni in high school [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: NJC now Black Eyed Peas [Em ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [Randy Remote ] Re: Our Joan - A wise woman ahead of her times, again [mags h ] BBC America (njc) ["Les Irvin" ] Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess [Catherine McKay <] Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["hell" ] Re: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess [Em ] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [mags h <] Re: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess [SCJoniGuy@aol] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [Brian Gr] Re: writing on Joni in high school [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: writing on Joni in high school NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [SCJoniGu] Sting influences NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: writing on Joni in high school NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] mis-heard Joni lyrics LOTC [Em ] Re: The Masses NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL ["Kate Bennett"] This Just In (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [Catherin] RE: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess ["hell" ] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [Catherin] RE: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC ["hell" <] RE: NJC now Black Eyed Peas ["hell" ] '79 Joni show on STG [David Sadowski ] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC [Susan Gu] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:33:42 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL hi > So ... what have some of your personal Plum Pickies from the JMDL been? hmmmm - lets see leaving aside the obvious listers (stryngs, jack neilson, giselle hawkins, victor johnson, kate bennet, sherelle, david lahm, anita gt) (well - how could i not mention them?????????) i have grown to absolutely love patty larkin mary gauthier pentangle judee sill then there are those i knew from joni who i have been inspired to explore further la express jaco pastorius/weather report & of course i have learnt to understand and appreciate music so much on this list... then - there are the expectations for the future >>>>cindy wrote >>>>>and one more plug - raya o. coal (thanks marian!) - http://www.rayaocoal.com/, incase you didn't go look when marian told you to. go see right now! & what fun trying to order the cd from the german web page jumping backwards & forwards to google translater to figure out what they want.!!!! based on the samples, i think that raya might just be the pick of the plums so far. if you havent checked her out, i strongly recomend you do so.......... ron np - russ barenburg - cowboy calypso ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:23:28 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: This Just In (NJC) > Big news coming from out west. PLEASE STAND BY! I'm standing by, Paz, ya big tease!! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:33:45 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: (NJC) speaking of JMDL recommendations MADELEINE PEYROUX!!!! What rock have I been hiding under since 1996 (her first release) to not have heard her before a live radio broadcast this past Monday on WFUV? She has a new album out (produced, coincidentally by Larry Klein) and is touring. Visit her website: www.madeleinepeyroux.com for dates in your area and definitely check her out if you haven't heard. The ovation at the end of her show was deafening and tumultuous and most deserved. I am blown away. CC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:35:49 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > I'll make my question very simple: if science cannot explain neither "life" > nor the "world order" (as opposed to chaos) then what other explanation have > you got besides a supreme being? You are saying that, due to lack of an adequate answer to the creation and existence of the universe, it must be a supreme being. This is a faulty conclusion, since, with our limited minds, we cannot be sure we are ruling out-or even considering-every possiblility, let along evaluating them conclusively. It does not follow that we must provide an answer just because we want one. It may be beyond us (or not), but providing an answer without all the information is essentially giving up and choosing blindly. From a rational point of view, anyway. "God is a concept by which we measure our pain"-John Lennon "Yoko is a concept by which we measure our pain"-National Lampoon "Concepts are a concept by which we measure concepts"-RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:49:21 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: writing on Joni in high school Hi all: Dr. Laura's email about high school writers jolted my memory about me and Joni in high school. My best friend (Olana Kiruluk -- where are you?) gave me "Song to a Seagull" our freshman year. We idolized her sister Donna (she was a big SENIOR!) and her taste in music (she had been to Woodstock) and she originally gave Olana this album, who then gave it to me. Anyway, the rest is (my) history......a fan is born! I have three really strong memories of this time, two of which involve "high school writers": 1. In 10th grade we had to write an in-class essay. Mrs. Carney gave us about 20 statements/topics to choose from. Guess who chose: "We are stardust, we are golden, and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden?" LOL....I wish I could find that essay now, to see what sophomoric jive and/or sweet drivel I wrote. It would be precious, in any case, from a newly-sprouted Joni fan, wouldn't you think? I would imagine I was quite passionate trying to make my case. 2. As chairman of the sophomore class dance, I insisted that the name be "Night in the City". Many of my classmates were saying: "HUH? Who is Joni Mitchell?" but I persisted (a true Jonievangelist even at the tender age of 15!). The dance was a great success, and much better than the big floppy MESS that was our freshman class dance -- the "Purple Haze" we tried to create with dry ice and purple spotlights just made a big wet mess on the floor and we had to end it early. Oh well, at least the band didn't sound like typewriters. 3. In 12th-grade English, we had to do a big project for a major part of our grade, and cool Mr. O'Connor gave us a long list of topics to choose from. I'm reading down the list, wondering whatever am I going to pick, not enthused at ALL by any of the topics, and then: EUREKA!!!! BINGO!!!! AN INTELLECTUAL ORGASM OF COSMIC PROPORTION!!! The sun breaks through the clouds and a choir of heavenly angels sings: "The Impressionism of Joni Mitchell" (NPIMH: Alleluia Chorus). I did a lot of research for that report and enjoyed every minute of it. For the final oral presentation, I remember dragging in my albums (STAS, Clouds, LOTC) and the French art books and having A WONDERFUL TIME (a la Emiliano!). (Aside: Jerry and Muller -- has anyone ever written a Ph.D. dissertation on Joni?). Once again, I don't have a copy of the paper and sure wish I did. Pardon these self-indulgent memories here -- but where else could I share them? Vive la Joan! Love to all, Patti P.S. Should I have tagged this NJC? Do the NJCs only like real hard Joni news? If so, I apologize and will do better in the future. _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:58:45 EDT From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: Re: Our Joan - A wise woman ahead of her times, again Brian writes: <> Hi Brian, I'm no scientist...and I'm not trying to take away from Joni's genius but I don't believe the stardust idea originated with her. If you have further evidence that in fact it did originate with Joni...please let me know. Later... Jonily Yours, Warren Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:23:38 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Randy Remote wrote: > > >You are saying that, due to lack of an adequate answer to the >creation and existence of the universe, it must be a supreme being. >This is a faulty conclusion, since, with our limited minds, we cannot >be sure we are ruling out-or even considering-every possiblility, let >along evaluating them conclusively. >It does not follow that we must provide an answer just because we >want one. It may be beyond us (or not), but providing an answer >without all the information is essentially giving up and choosing >blindly. From a rational point of view, anyway. > > > whetehr ti is rational or not, that is more or less how I think. Supposing there is a Supreme Being just brings more questions. However, I think that believing there is a power greater than ourselves, whcih is good, doesn't harm. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:36:08 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: >Colin, Steven, > >I've read your posts, I agree with everything you said about religion. However >what you're describing is the use, distortion, etc of religion by people in >order to either make their life more coherent or to manipulate others. >I'll make my question very simple: if science cannot explain neither "life" >nor the "world order" (as opposed to chaos) then what other explanation have >you got besides a supreme being? > >Laurent > > > I don't understand the above. Are you saying that you think religion is the only alternative to science? Or that the only way to believe in a SB is thru religion? Neither is true imo. As I ahev stated many times, I have no religion. That does NOT, NOT, NOT, mean i am an athiest, or do not believe in a sprititaul dimension. I do very much so. However, just because science cannot explain certain things, doesn't mean there HAS to be a SB. I don't know what it means. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. i don't think ti matters. it is beyond us at this time. We cannot know the answer. is there? Isn't there? No one has that answer. My own spiritual life was once built on hope, then on 'there is nothing and when you are dead you are dead', and now on knwoing that physical death is survived by us all. I don't know why, don't know the reason, nor do i know if it is all 'conducted' by some SB. However, I live by the rules of love, rather than fear, as best i can. it makes sense. treating others as you would want to be treated, lving morally and ethically(don;t get into the difference cos i am not sure!), just makes sense. Being loving rather than fearful makes sense;. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:42:59 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: writing on Joni in high school **P.S. Should I have tagged this NJC? Do the NJCs only like real hard Joni news? If so, I apologize and will do better in the future. You were fine in leaving the NJC off, Patti - if you're ever in doubt, put it on, but your post had Joni content, so it doesn't need to be marked NJC. Maybe you can start a new section on the JMDL for "Joni Term Papers"! (If you're like me & Smurf you'll soon discover there's a ton more than you ever thought possible, right Smurf?) As far as I know there's not a Joni PhD dissertation out there, but there probably has been. There IS an item in the articles section discussing the technical aspects of Joni's early compositions. It's about 25-odd pages, and most of it's over my head but I found it very interesting. Bob NP: Joni, "Judgement of the Moon & Stars" (T-log version) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:55:13 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc I don't understand the above. Are you saying that you think religion is the only alternative to science? Or that the only way to believe in a SB is thru religion? .... However, I live by the rules of love, rather than fear, as best i can. it makes sense. treating others as you would want to be treated, lving morally and ethically(don;t get into the difference cos i am not sure!), just makes sense. Being loving rather than fearful makes sense;. Colin I think the post I just emailed you answers the 1st question. Have you ever thought about where your conscience comes from, that makes you being loving, moral, etc? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:51:01 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: NJC now Black Eyed Peas Whoever wrote that lyric ahs their heart in the right place. It made me think tho of something i have a lot over the last few years. i thi nk it is wrong when people refer to us having lost previously held good qualities, implyin that the 'good ol days' were better. no they were not. Not for children. Not for women. Not for gay people. Not for people of colour. Not for white men. Not for anyone. we still have the same flaws and we can now damge on a greater scale and quickly. But we have evolved. We have changed our laws to protect children and women. In some cases to protect people of colour. In some cases to protect people of diverse sexuality. To pretect the disabled. To protect animals. The media only reports the bad stuff. If the news reported all the loving acts in the world, all the good luck, we would ahve a very different opnion of our world. we re what we think and we experience life as we think. if we are fed negative and take it i , we will ahev negative experience. that is not to say ignore the pain and horor of our world but to realise and accpet all the love there is out there, all the Good stuff. It is there and it happens every second of every minute of every day. We just don't see it cos we are manipulated into only seeing ad feeling the fear by those who think it benefits them to haev us fearful.(fools not relaising that they too are living in faer which is what drives them and their manipulation). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:45:18 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: religion, beliefs, science, njc Randy wrote: > You are saying that, due to lack of an adequate answer to the > creation and existence of the universe, it must be a supreme being. > This is a faulty conclusion, since, with our limited minds, we cannot > be sure we are ruling out-or even considering-every possiblility, let > along evaluating them conclusively. > It does not follow that we must provide an answer just because we > want one. It may be beyond us (or not), but providing an answer > without all the information is essentially giving up and choosing > blindly. From a rational point of view, anyway. > Jerry wrote: But that doesn't scientifically raise the logical conclusion of a > Supreme Being, either I understand your points and this is rational thinking indeed. However, first I don't think neither science nor our limited minds can explain G_d. More important, look around you at the beauty of nature, something all mankind reacts to in the same way (except a couple of nihilists maybe). See how it all fits in nicely in a trillion trillion combinations that make it work: from the essential rain, the ecosystem, bees and pollen, seeds and DNA, butterflies and zebras to the most obscure ways. For instance there's a species of orchid with a 13 inch-long neck. In order to reproduce itself it needs an animal who can reach down over 13 inches with its tongue to reach the pollen. What do you know, such a creature exists (forgot its name) with a tongue of the exact length. Think of all these seemingly insignificant but deeply inter-related little things that build the world as it is. Think of man's creative capacity and achievements, think of Love, think of Joni catching new tunings from seaguls. We're not talking chaos here You think I'm using reverse logic and reaching a conclusion without enough info. Isn't there some kind of "negative" way to prove something in math or science? One has never seen black holes but math proves they exist. To put it bluntly, assuming life could have begun by itself on earth somehow, wouldn't it be more logical to think that this place would look more like a shit hole? I am simply too overwhelmed by all this coherence and beauty to imagine that it could result from chance or from anything else but a "planned" system. So my logical conclusion is: If not by a Supreme Being, then who or what else? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:30:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC now Black Eyed Peas Colin thank you for that bit of beauty. sincerely, Em - --- colin wrote: > Whoever wrote that lyric ahs their heart in the right place. > > > It made me think tho of something i have a lot over the last few > years. > i thi nk it is wrong when people refer to us having lost previously > held > good qualities, implyin that the 'good ol days' were better. no they > were not. Not for children. Not for women. Not for gay people. Not > for > people of colour. Not for white men. Not for anyone. > > we still have the same flaws and we can now damge on a greater scale > and > quickly. But we have evolved. We have changed our laws to protect > children and women. In some cases to protect people of colour. In > some > cases to protect people of diverse sexuality. To pretect the > disabled. > To protect animals. > > The media only reports the bad stuff. If the news reported all the > loving acts in the world, all the good luck, we would ahve a very > different opnion of our world. > > we re what we think and we experience life as we think. if we are fed > > negative and take it i , we will ahev negative experience. that is > not > to say ignore the pain and horor of our world but to realise and > accpet > all the love there is out there, all the Good stuff. It is there and > it > happens every second of every minute of every day. We just don't see > it > cos we are manipulated into only seeing ad feeling the fear by those > who > think it benefits them to haev us fearful.(fools not relaising that > they > too are living in faer which is what drives them and their > manipulation). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:42:11 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Laurent Olszer wrote: > To put it bluntly, assuming life could have begun by itself on earth > somehow, wouldn't it be more logical to think that this place would look > more like a shit hole? It probably did for millions of years, contracting eventually into San Jose. > I am simply too overwhelmed by all this coherence and beauty to imagine that > it could result from chance or from anything else but a "planned" system. I think Einstein stated as much at one point. There must be some intellegence built into the atoms and the geese, to tell them what to do. Life is a mystery and a force. Going from that to a man in the sky is a leap.... > So my logical conclusion is: If not by a Supreme Being, then who or what > else? You got me there. Logically, you would have to eliminate every other possibility, which we are not equipped to do with any real certainty. For that matter, the same goes for Athiests who want to prove there is no God. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: Re: Our Joan - A wise woman ahead of her times, again Warrenkeith91354@aol.com wrote: I'm not trying to take away from Joni's genius but I don't believe the stardust idea originated with her. If you have further evidence that in fact it did originate with Joni...please let me know. Later... Warren, I agree with you....and besides, it's all just theoretical supposition anyway, isn't it... see you at the edge of the world.. ;-) Mags. np: Sunny Sunday let us just be side by side, helping, respecting and understanding each other, in common effort to serve humankind. ~Dalai Lama~ Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:09:05 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Our Joan - A wise woman ahead of her times, again **I'm not trying to take away from Joni's genius but I don't believe the stardust idea originated with her. And whoever's collecting Hoagy Carmichael's royalties for "Stardust" would certainly agree. It's been recorded more times than all of Joni's songs put together (which is over 1600 as of yesterday). Bob, 2 days away from yet another volume of the ditties NP: Joni, "Paprika Plains" ah, 'tis a beautiful thing... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:22:04 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Religion, Beliefs, Science, njc > I think Einstein stated as much at one point. There must be some > intellegence built into the atoms and the geese, to tell them what to > do. Life is a mystery and a force. >Going from that to a man in the sky is a leap.... Yeah I think I recall Einstein saying something like this, (although I really didn't when I posted). Funny you mention "force" and "man in the sky". My sister, who's being attending the Kabalah Center years before Madonna joined, supports the theory that Spielberg is versed in it too. According to her, Star Wars' key concepts are directly inspired from Kabalah. Just some Tinseltown trivia exclusive for JMDL. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:36:03 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: BBC America (njc) Is there anyone in Joniland that gets the BBC America channel on their TV and would be willing and able to tape something for me this weekend? Please respond off list if so... and thanks. Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:01:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess Artists I've discovered through the jmdl: - - Patty Griffin, - - Patty Larkin, - - Jonatha Brooke, - - Ani DiFranco, - - XTC (Hi Muller) - - Cheryl Wheeler (Hey, Ashara!) - - Dar Williams (I credit Colin for this. Although others have mentioned her, it was Colin that I listened to.) - - June Tabor - - Nick Drake - - Gillian Welch - - Be Good Tanyas - - Nickel Creek - - Eva Cassidy Artists I've discovered indirectly through the jmdl because, when I went to look for info on one of the ones mentioned above, I was led to these others: - - Lucy Kaplansky - - October Project - - Grey Eye Glances Artists I've discovered through the jmdl, have met in person and am in love with each and every one of them and they are SO deserving of being noticed by the world: ************* STRYNGS!!!!! *************** I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it, because I can't lie to save my own life. Artists I didn't care for much at the time but have since grown to like: - - Led Zeppelin - never cared for the singing, but have new appreciation for the music and lyrics and can therefore tolerate the singing now - - Ani DiFranco - I didn't care for her voice, still don't much, but anyone that can write lyrics like hers deserves to be listened to and now I realize the voice is part of who she is and wouldn't change it for the world. And her percussive guitar-playing is very cool too. Artists I knew about but paid more attention to since joining the jmdl and have since grown to like a whole lot: - - Patti Smith (Hi Garrett) (what is up with all these women named Patty or Patti?) - - Richard Thompson (where has he been all my life? I always loved Fairport, but it was Sandy's voice that I listened to) - - Tom Waits Artists I loved a long time ago but had more or less forgotten about over time, or got sidetracked by the business of growing up, having a family, etc. until landing at the jmdl: - - John Martyn - - Richie Havens - - Fairport Convention - - Steeleye Span Artists I just never could into, but would really like to, because so many people on this list love them, but what's the point? it either happens or it doesn't: - - Bob Dylan - - CSN (with or without Y, who doesn't do much for me either. ) - - James Taylor and you know... ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:07:55 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC CV writes: << engaging live, great stage presence, but not *enough* to make me buy her cd. >> Why buy hamburger, as they say, when you've got steak at home? I have to say that there are performers who sing and play songs, and then there are the very rare artists who *are* the music they create. Giselle (sp?) is in the latter category. And if that statement weren't 100% true, I wouldn't bring it up. About Tift Merrit, Cindy sez: << funny - she's far more "glamourous" now than 2 years ago >> Honey, who isn't! - --Smurf "Baby, if I'm the bottom, the US of A is the top!" - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:13:27 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Laurent writes: << science can only explain very limited things (e.g. evolution) as opposed to the "big" question. >> As in, "Hey, Betty ... is that Jimmy's ring you're wearing?" - --Smurf "I am at the dark end of Main Street, USA." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:07:42 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: religion, beliefs, science, njc Randy wrote: > > You are saying that, due to lack of an adequate answer to the > > creation and existence of the universe, it must be a supreme being. > > This is a faulty conclusion, since, with our limited minds, we cannot > > be sure we are ruling out-or even considering-every possiblility, let > > along evaluating them conclusively. > > It does not follow that we must provide an answer just because we > > want one. It may be beyond us (or not), but providing an answer > > without all the information is essentially giving up and choosing > > blindly. From a rational point of view, anyway. I probably shouldn't get into this debate, because I'll get carried away! But I completely agree with Randy here. A couple of hundred years ago we thought the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around us. Only a few decades ago, we thought atoms were the smallest things in the universe, and now that has been disproved. Science is advancing at an exponential rate, and who knows what we'll discover in the next hundred years? Of course you could argue that these "discoveries" are false, and that we see what we want to see - but you could go round in circles with that argument! Then Laurent wrote: > For instance there's > a species of orchid with a 13 inch-long neck. In order to > reproduce itself > it needs an animal who can reach down over 13 inches with its tongue to > reach the pollen. What do you know, such a creature exists (forgot its > name) with a tongue of the exact length. > Think of all these seemingly insignificant but deeply inter-related little > things that build the world as it is. IMO, you're talking about natural selection here. The plant would not have evolved or survived if there were not an animal capable of helping it reproduce. There are many many species on earth that have a symbiotic relationship (symbiosis being a relationship between two species to their mutual advantage), and some have evolved to a point where they are completely dependent on that relationship - the plant you describe is just one example. Humans also have a symbiotic relationship with certain bacteria - we need them to help break down food, and they cannot survive outside our nice warm, moist digestive systems. > I am simply too overwhelmed by all this coherence and beauty to > imagine that > it could result from chance or from anything else but a "planned" system. > So my logical conclusion is: If not by a Supreme Being, then who or what > else? Good question - and maybe it's just that we haven't discovered the "what else" yet? I'm not criticising you, or mocking anyone's faith (I totally respect that), but to me the idea of "God" as the answer to the so-called "unanswerable" questions is IMHO (stress that - MY opinion!) an easy solution to explain the on-going question of life, the universe and everything, ie. we can't explain it, so let's just call it God! As far as beauty and nature goes, there are certain things that trigger emotions in order to help us survive in the world. Puppies, kittens and babies are "cute" for a reason - they engage feelings of protection and a desire to care for them. I would recommend any of the Robert Winston TV series on human nature, etc. (particularly the series "Human Instinct") - they're fascinating viewing and he explains a lot of these theories (and of course, that's all they are!) much better than I could. Perhaps the reason we see the Earth as "beautiful" etc. is an evolutionary conditioned response, that triggers a desire to look after our environment? Which could be seen as another symbiotic relationship, not between two living organisms, but rather between us, as a living organism, and the environment we inhabit. It's to our benefit to look after the planet, and it's in the "planet's" interests to have us look after it. Music and painting also trigger feelings of happiness, which makes us more comfortable in our environment, which in turn, helps us live more peacefully with those around us - benefitting society as a whole. I could debate this for hours - and I'd much rather be doing it in person, with all of you, with a cold beer in my hand! - but it's something I've always been fascinated with. In short, I think we're a long, LONG way from having all the answers - and maybe we never will? Hell - who studied ecology and evolution a zillion years ago, but has forgotten far more than she remembers! ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:26:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > Artists I just never could into, but would really like > to, because so many people on this list love them, but > what's the point? it either happens or it doesn't: > - Bob Dylan :) Hi Catherine, but how could anyone not dig someone who wrote as a chorus: "say hello to Valerie Say hello to Vivian send them all my salary on the waters of oblivion" I mean where else wil you find such lyrical kink. KINK! Nothing but KINK! what a perverted little chorus, no?? I am constantly amazed and RE-amazed. Who could come UP w/ this??? Em ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:27:03 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC now great artists Vince writes: << All true artists have shocked us in some way. >> I agree with just about everything you said, Vince, but to me, Eminem sometimes "shocks" or "has shocked" in the sort of way Joni was talking about when she said something like, "What am I supposed to do? Grab my crotch? Get hair extensions?" - --Smurf, who's still a bit shocked by the long hairdos on those fabulous mop-tops "I am a gay American. That means consumerism to the nth." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:30:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: NP just cuz NJC Nina Simone "SINNERMAN".. OMG............ slay me and pull my heart out happily... :P Em ps:power!!!! ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:31:19 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC Les Irvin wrote: Damien Patrick Holland, 25 years old, Chaka Khan's son, has been arrested for murder. The shooting of a man (17 years old) not yet recognized with a gun took place last friday in a apartment of South Los Angeles (California). The man died at the hospital after he was transported to. and they say guns dont kill people. bollocks. let us just be side by side, helping, respecting and understanding each other, in common effort to serve humankind. ~Dalai Lama~ vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:42:48 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess **- XTC (Hi Muller) Hey back atcha, Catherine...thanks for that list, and glad I could turn you on to some tunes. Most of my really really favorites artists are ones that I was already aware of before plugging in here (Elvis, XTC, John Hiatt, Stan Ridgway, Rickie Lee, Waits and a long list of others, or new ones I've discovered outside of the JMDL (Ani, Death Cab For Cutie, another long list). But I too have benefited from the wealth of musical opinion here...Laura Love (thanks Cindy), Nick Drake (thanks Paul Castle), Ed Harcourt (thanks Paz), Jonatha Brooke (thanks Marsha Doyle), and Laura Nyro too; though I had heard her (and really liked Nested) I was encouraged to pick up more of her stuff (Beads of Sweat & NY Tendaberry specifically) that put her in the realm of genius. And a special thanks to Bill Pearson for an exceptional CD by Rob Jackson called "Wire, Wood & Magnets" - an amazingly hypnotically beautiful record of guitar instrumentals that I listen to when I want to just space out. Most of all, I'm grateful for the "Extras" that I've gotten from almost all of my favorite artists; live shows, demos, etc. What a true blessing, not to mention being inspired by a couple of you to go whole-hog into the world of Joni covers! So I'm glad that I've been able to shill for some of my favorites and happy for all the advice I've been given too! Speaking of Death Cab, I'm going to their "Move-On" show in Asheville NC a week from today, and this weekend I'll be in Cleveland to see BRUCE, REM, and John Fogerty. Bob NP: Joni, "You're My Thrill" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC Les Irvin wrote: > Damien Patrick Holland, 25 years old, Chaka Khan's son, has been arrested > for murder. The shooting of a man (17 years old) not yet recognized with a > gun took place last friday in a apartment of South Los Angeles (California). > The man died at the hospital after he was transported to. mags wrote: > and they say guns dont kill people. bollocks. Now me: Could have just as easily been killed by a (take your choice): Hockey stick Baseball bat Thrown baseball Iron pipe Kitchen knife Frying pan Automobile Piece of furniture Brick A blow to the windpipe The trigger *didn't* pull itself. The shooter *did* And *he* should be punished for that act. No matter what means he used. npimh: The Bill of Rights (yes, all 10 of them, or would you rather pick and choose as it suits on any particular day?) ===== Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got till it's gone --Roberta Joan Anderson, who never lies _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:48:55 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: writing on Joni in high school The *other* Bob M writes: << Maybe you can start a new section on the JMDL for "Joni Term Papers"! (If you're like me & Smurf you'll soon discover there's a ton more than you ever thought possible, right Smurf?) >> Ya darn tootin'! And now that you mention it, we do have an Australian exam question with Joni content in the Joni in Fiction section of the JMDL. Go to "Miscellaneous," if you're interested. I think it's there. - --Smurf, who will get a new computer soon and FUCKING DOMINATE Joni in FIction "Hooray for stars, stripes and sequins." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:50:26 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc **Puppies, kittens and babies are "cute" for a reason - they engage feelings of protection and a desire to care for them. Don't forget those cute lil' Smurfys, Jimmys and Mullers too! Bob NP: Joni, "Woodstock" (MOA) PS: GREAT post Hell, and I too wish I was talking all this over with you & everyone, cold beer in hand. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:54:02 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: writing on Joni in high school NJC **--Smurf, who will get a new computer soon and FUCKING DOMINATE Joni in FIction As yer buddy would say...Bring it on! And is "Joni in Flction" a new project? Bob Joni, "Dry Cleaner" "I want to be FUCKING DOMINATED, BITCH" - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:55:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC **Could have just as easily been killed by a (take your choice): Yeah, but it never is, is it? It's always a damn gun. Bob NP: Joni, "A Melody In Your Name" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:00:33 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Sting influences NJC Subject: Sting's tribute to Joan Hi everyone, Just caught Sting's concert - he is, of course, a fabulous performer and artist. Came home and went straight to ITunes store to purchase a few songs. He has a new album (exclusive to Apple) with a number of "talking" tracks. On one of them (How my Style Came to Me) he says that his style of singing was influenced by a number of female jazz singers - Lena Horne, Ella, Flora Purim and then later...Joni Mitchell. But of course! Sue Now that you mention it, I can definitely hear the influence of "female vocalists" in Sting's singing. And nice to hear someone mention Flora Purim....she fabulous. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:03:46 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: writing on Joni in high school NJC << "I want to be FUCKING DOMINATED, BITCH" - --Gov. Jim McGreevey >> "But 'cha are, Blanch, ya are." - --Bette Davis "I am running out of gay American lines." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: mis-heard Joni lyrics LOTC Estrella = "a stray up" woulda put money, I swear... ::shrug:: :/ em ===== - ---------- "But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues You can tell by the way she smiles" Bob D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:04:02 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: The Masses NJC <> This struck me so funny, I actually DID guffaw quite heartily, although I was not rolling on the floor laughing my ass off, as many emailers are wont to do. But thanks for the laugh! I relate. I work to maintain my status as the guy who's never been to Wal-Mart. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:16:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL >Which reminds me that the late Israel Kamakawiwo'ole was mentioned here after his "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"/"What a Wonderful World" (I think that's it) was used in a TV program (maybe "Six Feet Under).< It's the most beautiful rendition I've ever heard... the show was ER when one of the doctor's (Anthony Edwards character I think) went to die on Hawaii... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:31:46 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: This Just In (NJC) >Big news coming from out west. PLEASE STAND BY!< We had a 6.0 earthquake yesterday, you mean there's more? Kate clueless out west... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:32:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC --- mags h wrote: > Les Irvin wrote: > Damien Patrick Holland, 25 years old, Chaka Khan's > son, has been arrested > for murder. The shooting of a man (17 years old) not > yet recognized with a > gun took place last friday in a apartment of South > Los Angeles (California). > The man died at the hospital after he was > transported to. > > > > and they say guns dont kill people. bollocks. > Preach it, sister! I say, kill 'em with kindness. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:37:34 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Artists I've discovered through the jmdl - njc i guess Bon wrote: > And a special thanks to Bill Pearson for an exceptional > CD by Rob > Jackson called "Wire, Wood & Magnets" - an amazingly > hypnotically beautiful record > of guitar instrumentals that I listen to when I want to just space out. I have to thank Bill for this one as well - it's an amazing album, and as Bob says, is great when you want to space out! Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:39:23 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: This Just In (NJC) Paz wrote: > Big news coming from out west. PLEASE STAND BY! I agree with Lori - you're a big tease! And does it concern me? I mean, how far west are you talking ;o)? Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:46:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC --- Brian Gross wrote: > Could have just as easily been killed by a (take > your choice): > Hockey stick Purpose for being - playing a game > Baseball bat Purpose for being - playing a game > Thrown baseball See baseball bat > Iron pipe Purpose for being - plumbing, etc. > Kitchen knife Purpose for being - preparing food to eat > Frying pan See kitchen knife > Automobile Purpose for being - conveying people and goods from one place to another > Piece of furniture Purpose for being - giving us comfortable places to sit, lie, sleep, eat, etc. > Brick Purpose for being - constructing buildings, walls, roads > A blow to the windpipe An act of violence > The trigger *didn't* pull itself. The trigger is on a gun. Purpose for being? Wounding and killing. Nothing else. > The shooter *did* > And *he* should be punished for that act. > No matter what means he used. Very true. He killed someone and he has to pay. But guns and hot heads don't mix. For that matter, guns don't mix with anything much that I can think of. > npimh: The Bill of Rights (yes, all 10 of them, or > would you rather pick and > choose as it suits on any particular day?) > As a Canadian, this doesn't mean much to me, although I do like the one about freedom of speech, if that's one of them. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:35:01 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC Brian wrote: > Now me: > Could have just as easily been killed by a (take your choice): > Hockey stick > Baseball bat > Thrown baseball > Iron pipe > Kitchen knife > Frying pan > Automobile > Piece of furniture > Brick > A blow to the windpipe > > The trigger *didn't* pull itself. > The shooter *did* > And *he* should be punished for that act. > No matter what means he used. True, the person with the gun should be punished, but the fact remains that (according to the report I read on www.courttv.com) they were fighting over the gun when it "accidentally" went off. I don't think a baseball, or a brick can "accidentally" go off and kill someone in quite the same way.... Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:58:38 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: NJC now Black Eyed Peas Vince wrote: > one of my favorite people ever, the heavenly hell wrote: Thanks, Vince - I'm blushing! > And your nephew shows great taste!!!!!! Of course - he has ME as his aunt, to steer him in the right musical direction! I can't see him being a big Joni fan mind you, but I've managed to introduce him to some good music, and I still have my (younger) niece to work on with Joni! > To preserve your reputation, > please do not tell everyone whose band D12 is, or who raps the lead on > My Band, and do like the plain or peanut M&Ms better? :-) Peanut, of course! And no, I won't tell.... > As for the lyrics for Where is the Love - since that song has been > mentioned again, I repost the lyrics to share with all who don't know > the song or remember from my last December posting of it what the lyrics > of that Black Eyed Pea's song are - and if it is your first time, keep > on reading... Thanks for posting those again - they're still as relevant as they ever were. I particularly like these lines: > but if you only have love for your own ways > then you only leave space to discriminate > and to discriminate only generates hate > and when you hate, then you're bound to get irate (yeah) > madness is what you demonstrate Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:46:16 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: '79 Joni show on STG Joni bit torrent on Sharing the Groove: http://www.sharingthegroove.org/msgboard/showthread.php?t=84535 Joni Mitchell San Francisco Civic Auditorium September 7 and 8, 1979 This is from the "Shadows and Light" tour with the great group of backing musicians: Pat Metheny Lyle Mays Jaco Pastorious Michael Brecker Don Alias 3 Discs, two complete shows. (audience recording) Disc 1: (September 7th) 01) Big Yellow Taxi 02) Just Like This Train 03) In France They Kiss on Main Street 04) Coyote 05) Edith and the Kingpin 06) Free Man in Paris 07) Goodbye Porkpie Hat 08) Jaco's Solo 09) Amelia 10) Pat's Solo 11) Hejira 12) Don's Solo 13) Dreamland 14) Black Crow Disc 2: 01) Furry Sings the Blues 02) God Must be A Boogie Man 03) Raised on Robbery 04) Shadows and Light 05) The Last Time I Saw Richard 06) Woodstock (September 8th) 07) Just Like This Train 08) Edith and the Kingpin 09) Free Man in Paris 10) Goodbye Porkpie Hat 11) Jaco's Solo 12) Dry Cleaner From Des Moines Disc 3: 01) Amelia 02) Pat's Solo 03) Hejira 04) Don's Solo 05) Dreamland 06) Black Crow 07) Furry Sings the Blues 08) God Must be A Boogie Man 09) Raised on Robbery 10) Shadows and Light 11) The Last Time I Saw Richard 12) Woodstock More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=873 http://www.jonimitchell.com/SF79.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:50:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) now NJC WOW! Can we see the stats on how many pieces of furniture killed young people last year? - think that would stop people from buying lamps and sleeper sofas. Get those things OFF the market! Really its the ease of the trigger and the swift results that are so devastating. And so far as the bill of rights goes - at the time of that little writing there was this thing called a war - something about a revolution and people and times were supposedly less civilized. Far as I am concerned - this is one we could lose ... or we can all lose soo much more. And guns in homes overwhelmingly kill children or other friends and family members than ever protect ones domain. BTW if I missed it here - charges were dropped against Chaka's son. Peace, Susan NPIMH - Lawyers guns and money - the shit has hit the fan! Brian Gross wrote: Now me: Could have just as easily been killed by a (take your choice): Hockey stick Baseball bat Thrown baseball Iron pipe Kitchen knife Frying pan Automobile Piece of furniture Brick A blow to the windpipe The trigger *didn't* pull itself. The shooter *did* And *he* should be punished for that act. No matter what means he used. npimh: The Bill of Rights (yes, all 10 of them, or would you rather pick and choose as it suits on any particular day?) ===== Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got till it's gone - --Roberta Joan Anderson, who never lies _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #395 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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