From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #394 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, September 29 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 394 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC was Plum Pickies, now Slim Shady (please throw up, please throw up) [] Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL [Smurfycopy@aol] Over the Rainbow - NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Over the Rainbow - NJC [Em ] RE: NJC was something, now a tired old rant ["hell" ] C&N, B. Wilson, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Over the Rainbow - NJC [Jerry Notaro ] religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc/Jing's .02 start moaning... [Em ] Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL [Jenny Goodspee] Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] This Just In (NJC) [Michaelpaz@aol.com] Re: NJC now great artists [vince ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [Em ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [Em ] Re: NJC now Black Eyed Peas [vince ] Re: NJC now great artists [Em ] Stage and Screen Star Susan Egan in Concert - Nov. 7th at Joe's Pub! [Je] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc [Em ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:12:29 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC was Plum Pickies, now Slim Shady (please throw up, please throw up) Vince writes: << There is homophobia out there, and a lot of violence. Saying Eminem is a problem is a neat way to miss the whole reality with a belief in media-hyped bullshit. >> True. I agree 100%. And I never said he was a problem, VInce, nor did I advocate banning his music. What I said was that I didn't want to listen to music that's about stabbing one's mother or hurting gays. I don't care if it's sung by Joni herself and a choir of heavenly angels, that's not the musical subject matter that apppeals to me. It's also very frustrating for me because I think Eminem is capable of real greatness. And I also believe, like Esther, Eminem has been shocking us all at various times in his career simply to generate publicity, sell CDs, etc. Nothing "wrong" with that, but it's probably not the path of a true artist. - --Smurf "One Rolling Stone magazine, please. And please put it in a plain brown wrapper." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:16:14 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL The Divine Ms. G writes: << I found Eva Cassidy here as well. And again I would mention her version of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow," as one that rivals Judy's. >> Which reminds me that the late Israel Kamakawiwo'ole was mentioned here after his "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"/"What a Wonderful World" (I think that's it) was used in a TV program (maybe "Six Feet Under). He is someone else whom I first heard about here but whose records I still haven't checked out. - --Smurf "I am just a tap-dancin', goose-steppin' fella." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:51:37 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Over the Rainbow - NJC > The Divine Ms. G writes: > > << I found Eva Cassidy here as well. And again I would mention her version > of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow," as one that rivals Judy's. >> > > Which reminds me that the late Israel Kamakawiwo'ole was mentioned here after > his "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"/"What a Wonderful World" (I think that's it) > was used in a TV program (maybe "Six Feet Under). He is someone else whom I > first heard about here but whose records I still haven't checked out. > Both of these versions are knockouts. I use Eva's Over the Rainbow as my "reference" recording when listening to audio equipment. It is as near perfect a recording as you can get. Jerry np: Tim Buckley - Wayfaring Stranger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:56:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Over the Rainbow - NJC Jerry, will you sit me down and feed me music one day? please? :) Em - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > Both of these versions are knockouts. I use Eva's Over the Rainbow as > my > "reference" recording when listening to audio equipment. It is as > near > perfect a recording as you can get. > > Jerry > > np: Tim Buckley - Wayfaring Stranger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:01:05 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: NJC was something, now a tired old rant Vince wrote: (Em, who is not Marshall Mathers: the Black Eyed Peas albums are a tad bit mixed, not even in quality, some songs are great and there are a handful I am not too excited about but the best song of all is track 13 on Elephunk, "Where is the love." Check out the lyrics - I posted them here last December - and you will be moved by what the kids are saying these days. And the more I listen to the albums, the more I am liking as a whole despite the few off tracks. And check them out on any tv show they appear on - they are great fun!) I have to say, although the Black Eyed Peas are not the sort of band I would normally like, I have liked every song I've heard so far - and they're very popular here, so you hear a lot! And when my budget allows, I may even buy an album! I would also echo Vince's sentiments concerning "Where Is The Love". My 12-year-old nephew loves this song, so I heard it possibly a million times last Xmas ;o) - but it's got a great message (which my nephew also appreciated). And Vince, you'll be glad to hear his current "favourite" song is D12 - My Band.... Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:21:01 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: C&N, B. Wilson, njc WED Brian Wilson on Leno Brian Wilson on Ellen Degeneres Show (?) THURS Crosby & Nash on Late Late Show (CBS) form. Kilbourn I wish someone could tape that please? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:13:51 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Over the Rainbow - NJC > Jerry, will you sit me down and feed me music one day? please? > :) > Em I'm a Media Librarian. I do it all day long! Jerry :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:19:41 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: religion, beliefs, science, njc Steven wrote: Can you find the proof of your convictions? Brian wrote: "Origins," It explores and explains why the Big Bang banged; why life developed on Earth and how the planet itself developed over eons; and what the central ingredients of all living things, including ourselves, really are. Now me: From an early age, blind belief wasn't enough for me. I had to find proof and I did. I spoke with a scientist recently. He specializes in biology and believes in G_d not because of his upbringing, but rather because as a scientist there can be no other explanation: He came up with the same arguments that convinced me 30 years ago: 1) Science has no clue how life began. (put carbon, stardust, water, etc in a shaker and nobody can create life) 2) Assuming that simple organisms would appear somehow (still no explanation for that) he added that the genetic code between simple organisms and evolved (well sort of) ones is so different that evolution cannot explain how we descend from bacteria or amibias. 3) From a statistical standpoint, the probability that from "stardust" we would evolve to the world as we know it, with the ecosystems, etc, is so small as to be considered 0. (I had read that if you wrote on paper the actual number of this probability, the number of zeros would go to the moon and back!) 4) Finally, on the scale of the universe, life and man appeared extremely late, meaning it evolved very fast, too fast. So yeah one can argue about evolution between reptiles and birds, apes and men, but the key questions are completely unanswered. The discussion remains open if I missed something. Laurent Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:37:25 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Chaka Khan's son arrested for murder (Joni mention) Interesting. Since I got to go to the Joni's Jazz rehearsal Chaka's family hung in the audience. I got to meet her 2 "gran-babies" and the rest of her family and entourage. Was she married to one of the famous Motown songwriters? > Damien Patrick Holland, 25 years old, Chaka Khan's son, has been arrested > for murder. The shooting of a man (17 years old) not yet recognized with a > gun took place last friday in a apartment of South Los Angeles (California). > The man died at the hospital after he was transported to. It was "Celebrity > Justice" TV program that revealed the word of the arrest. > Chaka Khan, his mother has been divorced since several years from Damien > Patrick Holland. > > Chaka Khan began her solo career in the late 1970s with the hit, "I'm Every > Woman," a tune written especially for her by the legendary songwriting team > of Nick Ashford and Valerie Simpson. Since then, Chaka has recorded nine > albums and been honored with five Grammy Awards. Her solo hits include "What > Cha Gonna Do For Me?" "Clouds," "Papillion," "I Feel For You," and "Through > the Fire." Working with the best of the best in the music world has been a > rewarding experience for Chaka over the years. > > It all started when Stevie Wonder wrote "Tell Me Something Good." Since > then, she has worked with some of the biggest and most outstanding music > talents in the business - her dear friend Joni Mitchell, world-class > producer Quincy Jones and R&B icon Gladys Knight, for example. > > http://noted.blogs.com/westcoastmusic/2004/09/damien_patrick_.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:31:27 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL <> thanks, smurph. i've been owing an email about this very topic, so i appreciate the nudge. someone (was it you, les ross?) was going on and on recently here about Keane. i found myself in target, in "rampant consumer" - -mode, and saw the cd for cheap and grabbed it up. what a great purchase. Keane won't change the world. but they sure make me happy. http://www.keanemusic.com/ thanks to whoever you were.... and one more plug - raya o. coal (thanks marian!) - http://www.rayaocoal.com/, in case you didn't go look when marian told you to. go see right now! hugs all around - cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:31:52 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Jeff Buckley For the tenth anniversary of one of the 909s most influential recording, Sony has released a Legacy Edition of Jeff Buckley9s Grace. In addition to 2 masterfully remastered cd9s, there is a DVD which includes The Making of Grace. Discussing his influences he was asked what he listened to while growing up: 3Acoustic Dylan, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, and Joni Mitchell, LOTS of Joni!2 Jerry np: Mindy Smith - Raggedy Ann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc/Jing's .02 start moaning... I realized one day after thinking about god and science, that god has to be infinity itself. The infinity, the going on and on and on, and that there IS no end, ever..even if you run up against a steel wall in space, then IT goes on....there is no end. So to me *infinity* is god. Infinity is like death and taxes. No getting around it. You can definitly believe in it. Cuz its there, and if IT isn't there, then something else is there. If not positive, then you can be sucked into negative. There's always "more". If its not a positive more, then its a negative more. But there is no end. And that seems beyond science, and therefore godlike. But, then, I'm no intellectual. hehehhhhh, can ya tell? Jingy/em - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > Steven wrote: Can you find the proof of > your convictions? > > Brian wrote: "Origins," It explores and explains why the Big Bang > banged; why > life developed on Earth > and how the planet itself developed over eons; and what the central > ingredients > of all living things, including ourselves, really are. > > Now me: > > From an early age, blind belief wasn't enough for me. I had to find > proof and > I did. I spoke with a scientist recently. He specializes in biology > and > believes in G_d not because of his upbringing, but rather because as > a > scientist there can be no other explanation: > He came up with the same arguments that convinced me 30 years ago: > 1) Science has no clue how life began. (put carbon, stardust, > water, etc in > a shaker and nobody can create life) > 2) Assuming that simple organisms would appear somehow (still no > explanation > for that) he added that the genetic code between simple organisms and > evolved > (well sort of) ones is so different that evolution cannot explain how > we > descend from bacteria or amibias. > 3) From a statistical standpoint, the probability that from > "stardust" we > would evolve to the world as we know it, with the ecosystems, etc, is > so small > as to be considered 0. (I had read that if you wrote on paper the > actual > number of this probability, the number of zeros would go to the moon > and > back!) > 4) Finally, on the scale of the universe, life and man appeared > extremely > late, meaning it evolved very fast, too fast. > > So yeah one can argue about evolution between reptiles and birds, > apes and > men, but the key questions are completely unanswered. > The discussion remains open if I missed something. > > Laurent > > > Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:06:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC Jerry Notaro wrote: np: Mindy Smith - Raggedy Ann What do you think of Mindy Smith Jerry? I've been tempted to buy her CD based on the one single I've been hearing. vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:18:42 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc While I may rant about Christianity (shame on them!) which I believe had me really f*cked up for a while, I do believe in All That Is- my word for G*d. We are not only stardust- we are Godstuff. This can't be chance. My whole being tells me that! In my exploration for the truth, one teacher told me: "There are more ways to God than sands on the beach, and if anyone tells you there is only one way- run like hell!" That alone sent me exploring. He also said without doubt you cannot have faith, Colin, so thank you for your post. I've always believed that religion was created to controll the masses. Period. How can one blindly follow a book which was (at the very least) edited by men, has gone through (God knows) how many translations, revisions and what-not? If it indeed is the word of God how dare you mess with it! That alone should raise suspicion. LOL! (okay, I'm done ranting...) Now back to metaphysics... Last night while I was surfing cable I ran across some scientist questioning our method of carbon dating, and that his theory or equation has lead him to believe that the rocks in the Grand Canyon are only thousands of years old. (He was a Christian scientist.) How can all these scientists come up with all these different theories, equations, or studies that yield vastly differing results? Unless they are looking for what they already BELIEVE are the answers? Back to this belief thing again. What you believe is what you get. It sounds so simplistic but that's what it boils down to, imho. I have seen it in my own life many, many times. Look how 'positive thinking' and 'visualization' have creeped into pop culture lately. It's been around for years, but finally, more and more docs and health pros (and others) are recognizing it's value and potential. Despite my distaste for religion, we all have our own path, whatever it may be. Maybe we do have all the answers within us. Instead of looking outside, do we look in? Steve >>> "Laurent Olszer" 09/29/04 08:19AM >>> Steven wrote: Can you find the proof of your convictions? Brian wrote: "Origins," It explores and explains why the Big Bang banged; why life developed on Earth and how the planet itself developed over eons; and what the central ingredients of all living things, including ourselves, really are. Now me: From an early age, blind belief wasn't enough for me. I had to find proof and I did. I spoke with a scientist recently. He specializes in biology and believes in G_d not because of his upbringing, but rather because as a scientist there can be no other explanation: He came up with the same arguments that convinced me 30 years ago: 1) Science has no clue how life began. (put carbon, stardust, water, etc in a shaker and nobody can create life) 2) Assuming that simple organisms would appear somehow (still no explanation for that) he added that the genetic code between simple organisms and evolved (well sort of) ones is so different that evolution cannot explain how we descend from bacteria or amibias. 3) From a statistical standpoint, the probability that from "stardust" we would evolve to the world as we know it, with the ecosystems, etc, is so small as to be considered 0. (I had read that if you wrote on paper the actual number of this probability, the number of zeros would go to the moon and back!) 4) Finally, on the scale of the universe, life and man appeared extremely late, meaning it evolved very fast, too fast. So yeah one can argue about evolution between reptiles and birds, apes and men, but the key questions are completely unanswered. The discussion remains open if I missed something. Laurent Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: NJC was: Shum Ticky - now: Plum Pickies from the JMDL The JMDL (Bob Muller in particular) sent me to collecting Ben Folds and Badly Drawn Boy albums. And on several occasions a particular artist will have been discussed on JMDL and soon after I'll hear something on the radio that I love and I'll be thinking 'Who is this?! This great!' and sure enough it's the person JMDL was just discussing. That always makes me smile. Jenny Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: Jumpin' Jing writes: << I think the production and arrangements of Shum Ticky are partly what make it so delicious. Its like eating some certain mixture of take out Chinese when you REALLY have the munchies and its soo gooooood and you just have to snarf it up and it gets all over your face and shirt.... (SNIP SNIP SNIP) I just can't get over how delicious the "sounds" are on that album - its just all over the place and it tickles my brain. Which is really cool for me, because I was starting to feel like my brain was too numb to tickle any more.>> This is probably one of the best record reviews I've ever read, Jinger. I really want to hear Laura Love. (Plus she's also got that double-L Superman thing happening, so she sounds like she might have been a character who the Man of Steel, as Lois Lane, Lana Lang, Lorna Luft, Lex Luthor and many others have.) I have been on this list for years and have let too many recommended artist slip away. (Poverty will do that.) But you and Muller and Azeem and Ron and Ka te and Ashara and everyone keep talking about more people than I can ever afford to plop down money for, but I am always intrigued because I know I would love at least most of what another JMDLer likes. Anyway, I had a thought ... is anyone interested in a thread about great music you discovered through this list over the years? I'd like to save some of those posts for the day when I become a consumer again. So ... what have some of your personal Plum Pickies from the JMDL been? From what I can remember, recommendations have included such diverse artists as Blossum Dearie, Blind Boys of Alabama, and Eminem. But I've forgotten way more than I remember, so tell me your Plum Pickies! - --Smurf, never too numb to tickle "I'll have the American pie, please." - --Gov. Jim McGreevey New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC Good to know. We have two great radio stations in the area that play alot of new singer/songwriter and acoustic-oriented music - and though their playlists hardly ever overlap, both stations had 'Come to Jesus' on heavy rotation. Haven't heard Tift Merrit though... Jenny Jerry Notaro wrote: Jerry Notaro wrote: np: Mindy Smith - Raggedy Ann What do you think of Mindy Smith Jerry? I've been tempted to buy her CD based on the one single I've been hearing. Im not much of a radio listener anymore. I didnt know she had a single out or that anyone was playing it. But I think she is terrific. And also am very much liking Tift Merritt. I recommend both of them. Jerry vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:34:34 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC I like Mindy Smith's CD a lot. She won me over when I saw her open for Nickel Creek here at Georgia Southern. That Raggedy Ann song is great. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Jenny Goodspeed Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:07 AM To: Jerry Notaro; Joni List Subject: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC Jerry Notaro wrote: np: Mindy Smith - Raggedy Ann What do you think of Mindy Smith Jerry? I've been tempted to buy her CD based on the one single I've been hearing. vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:37:03 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC > Good to know. > > We have two great radio stations in the area that play alot of new > singer/songwriter and acoustic-oriented music - You are very lucky. and though their playlists > hardly ever overlap, both stations had 'Come to Jesus' on heavy rotation. Great song. I think one of the more controversial songs she has written. > > Haven't heard Tift Merrit though... You will! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:47:34 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC <> tift was here at city stages, a weekend sidewalk music festival, two years ago... engaging live, great stage presence, but not *enough* to make me buy her cd. (bought garrison starr's disc that day, though. her, i liked!) tift was recently through town again and i heard her play 2 songs live on the radio. seems to be that she had improved significantly as a guitar player in the time since i'd seen her.... definitely worth looking into again, i'd think. it's all about lyrics with me, and tift didn't make me hear her, you know, but i'll try again, jerry, on your recommendation. her new disc seems to be advertised and reviewed in all the acoustic guitar magazines right now, so she's definitely got *someone* with bucks in her corner. funny - she's far more "glamourous" now than 2 years ago, too. the star-maker machine must require big hair! http://www.tiftmerritt.com/ - but her site's "under construction" right now. boo! cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:49:52 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: speaking of JMDL recommendations NJC > <> > > tift was here at city stages, a weekend sidewalk music festival, > two years ago... engaging live, great stage presence, but not > *enough* to make me buy her cd. (bought garrison starr's disc > that day, though. her, i liked!) tift was recently through town > again and i heard her play 2 songs live on the radio. seems to > be that she had improved significantly as a guitar player in the > time since i'd seen her.... definitely worth looking into again, > i'd think. it's all about lyrics with me, and tift didn't make > me hear her, you know, but i'll try again, jerry, on your > recommendation. > her new disc seems to be advertised and reviewed in all the > acoustic guitar magazines right now, so she's definitely got > *someone* with bucks in her corner. funny - she's far more > "glamourous" now than 2 years ago, too. the star-maker machine > must require big hair! > > http://www.tiftmerritt.com/ - but her site's "under construction" > right now. boo! > > cindy I heard about her through Folkwax ezine. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:44:34 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Steven Polifka wrote: > This can't be >chance. > a good friend of mine, a 60plus year old scientist who is not a religionist, says it cannot be accident. she says random acts tend to result in choas not in order. The world is ordered. >My whole being tells me that! > In my exploration for the truth, one teacher told me: "There are more >ways to God than sands on the beach, and if anyone tells you there is >only one way- run like hell!" > Good advice! your sand analogy brings to mind another couple: we are like the grains of sand on the beach and God id the beach OR we are raindrops and God is the ocean. >masses. >Period. How can one blindly follow a book > because it makes life easy, gives one certainty, and blocks out doubt, ie fear. the fact it is a big lie to yourself is neither here nor there to those that need to have certainty. Then there is the ego side to it-the need to feel superior. But to be more charitable I would ahev thought self wroth and upbringing have much to do with it. Only a perosn lacking in self accpetnace, self love, self worth, esteen whatever you wnat to call it-or a person who cannot let go of the need for vengeance-could possibly bewlieve in such a God. > > Last night while I was surfing cable I ran across some scientist >questioning our method of carbon dating, and that his theory or >equation >has lead him to believe that the rocks in the Grand Canyon are only >thousands of years old. (He was a Christian scientist.) > As Jehovah's Witnesses we were taught the same thing. If the facts don't back up the belief, change the facts. >Unless they are looking for what they already BELIEVE are the answers? > you got it! > Back to this belief thing again. What you believe is what you get. It >sounds so simplistic but that's what it boils down to, imho. I have seen >it in my own life many, many times. > simplistic yet so many of us miss it entirely. Our lives are what we make it. I do NOT extend that to menaing we ask to be sick, or absued, or murdered or whatever but we can choose how we react to these things. However, we can only make choices from our knowledge so our choices are limited by what we know. Education changed my life. education si continual if your mind is open. More choices become available with growth. Thinking is everything and we are fucked if we don';t know that and fucked if we limit our thinking thru lack of knowledge. > Look how 'positive thinking' and 'visualization' have creeped into >pop culture lately. It's been around for years, but finally, more and >more docs and health pros (and others) are recognizing it's value and >potential. > Well i am no good at visualization but do keep my thoughts positive. This last two eyars have been very difficult physically but I am the happiest I have ever been. I am now having to use 2 walking sticks(nice natural unpolished wood ones) to get around. However, I am still going to dog shows and showing my dog. I leave the sticks outside the ring and just bear it for the short time I have to be in there. I still do everything I wnat. i pop some painkillers and wlak the dags. I still travel and am off to the Brussels(belgium) dog show in december. i drove to sweden back in June. My dogs still their weekly baths and get groomed and fed and played with. I still knit. Still go out daily. In fact I semento do more than ever. I refuse to let this get me down or stop me living. the first 40 years of my life were hell due to the emtional hell I lived in. that is gone. This physical problem is so much easier to cope with. It is not likely to go away. It seems, at least the latest from the Dr and Hospital, is that I have a problem with my central nervous system and my body is going weird. It could be much worse. Life is to be lived and I do, one day at atime. the thing that amazes me, I sued to run from pain, the sort I sued to be in, till i couldn't runa nymore and had to deal and foudn the right person to help. Now, i haev heavy pain killers i am supposed to take 8 of per day. I can't recall the last time I took them! Yes, me! No pill popping! Well, i am not daft and I do take the 5 pills a day for my heart but the pain killers I leave till i can't handle it or I need to for the dogs' sake. > Maybe we do have all the answers within us. Instead of >looking outside, do we look in? > yes, i think so. Heaven and Hell are both within and so is God so it seems appropriate to look there! > >Steve > > > > > > >>>>"Laurent Olszer" 09/29/04 08:19AM >>> >>>> >>>> >Steven wrote: Can you find the proof of >your convictions? > >Brian wrote: "Origins," It explores and explains why the Big Bang >banged; why >life developed on Earth >and how the planet itself developed over eons; and what the central >ingredients >of all living things, including ourselves, really are. > >Now me: > >>From an early age, blind belief wasn't enough for me. I had to find >proof and >I did. I spoke with a scientist recently. He specializes in biology >and >believes in G_d not because of his upbringing, but rather because as a >scientist there can be no other explanation: >He came up with the same arguments that convinced me 30 years ago: >1) Science has no clue how life began. (put carbon, stardust, water, >etc in >a shaker and nobody can create life) >2) Assuming that simple organisms would appear somehow (still no >explanation >for that) he added that the genetic code between simple organisms and >evolved >(well sort of) ones is so different that evolution cannot explain how >we >descend from bacteria or amibias. >3) From a statistical standpoint, the probability that from "stardust" >we >would evolve to the world as we know it, with the ecosystems, etc, is >so small >as to be considered 0. (I had read that if you wrote on paper the >actual >number of this probability, the number of zeros would go to the moon >and >back!) >4) Finally, on the scale of the universe, life and man appeared >extremely >late, meaning it evolved very fast, too fast. > >So yeah one can argue about evolution between reptiles and birds, apes >and >men, but the key questions are completely unanswered. >The discussion remains open if I missed something. > >Laurent > > >Laurent > > > - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:00:40 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc > I've always believed that religion was created to controll the > masses. No argument from me about that. > Last night while I was surfing cable I ran across some scientist > questioning our method of carbon dating, and that his theory or > equation > has lead him to believe that the rocks in the Grand Canyon are only > thousands of years old. (He was a Christian scientist.) > How can all these scientists come up with all these different > theories, equations, or studies that yield vastly differing results? > Unless they are looking for what they already BELIEVE are the answers Sure I see your point. The biologist I spoke to was not a religious man by any means. He didn't have a crazy theory like the one you're referring to. My initial question to him was: is religion incompatible with science? I was glad to finally hear the same argument from a non-religious person that they're not incompatible because science can only explain very limited things (e.g. evolution) as opposed to the "big" question. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:12:06 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc Colin, Steven, I've read your posts, I agree with everything you said about religion. However what you're describing is the use, distortion, etc of religion by people in order to either make their life more coherent or to manipulate others. I'll make my question very simple: if science cannot explain neither "life" nor the "world order" (as opposed to chaos) then what other explanation have you got besides a supreme being? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:14:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > I'll make my question very simple: if science cannot explain neither > "life" > nor the "world order" (as opposed to chaos) then what other > explanation have > you got besides a supreme being? Hi Laurent, obviously I'm neither Colin nor Steven, so sorry for jumping in - but I think a plausible answer to that is that science is simply not far along yet. or? :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:32:44 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: religion, beliefs, science, njc > Hi Laurent, obviously I'm neither Colin nor Steven, so sorry for > jumping in - No way, it's a private debate but I think a plausible answer to that is that science is > simply not far along yet. > or? > :) > Em If you recall my earlier post of today, the science of statistics which is quite evolved says that the probability of all this happening is 0. LAurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:28:34 EDT From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: This Just In (NJC) Big news coming from out west. PLEASE STAND BY! Best Paz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:29:37 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC now great artists Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: >And I also believe, like Esther, Eminem >has been shocking us all at various times in his career simply to generate >publicity, sell CDs, etc. Nothing "wrong" with that, but it's probably not the >path of a true artist. > First of all, the number one reason for rock and roll is to piss off your parents. All true artists have shocked us in some way. It may be less earth shaking for some than others - Joni shocked us with HOSL and Mingus - and her friend Jimi Hendrix shocked us by smashing and burning his guitar and making love to it - but a true artist in any medium will always discomfort us, because they take us someplace we have never been before. Generating publicity, sell albums, however, how shocking. Not all artists strive for that - some are content with not going that route full out. But is it not a matter of degree and personal perspective? Joni has chosen to reject the star making machinery behind the popular song but as recently as 2000 she was touring and doing talk shows to promote sales and I learned of her latest release via ads in Rolling Stone. The Beatles, true artists, never missed a trick in publicity and merchandising and shocking (we forget how shocking they were in the day and also how they set standards in selling merchandise never seen before or since and raise your hands if you had a Beatles lunch pail). I wish they would issue the Beatles album cover of them covered in meat and blood - oh, that shocked, that created publicity, that sold albums. Leonard Bernstein was a true artist and never missed a trick in doing what it took to sell his music. We can all think of so many examples. There is the Amadeus question - how can so much talent be in someone that seems so venial to some while other much nicer people do not have those gifts. The gift of talent can be so unfairly promiscuous. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > If you recall my earlier post of today, the science of statistics > which is > quite evolved says that the probability of all this happening is 0. ah ok, I need to go back and try to wrap my brain around that. Interesting convo, guys, I'm probably done, but will listen with interest to the rest that might be said. :) Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc - --- Laurent Olszer wrote: > If you recall my earlier post of today, the science of statistics > which is > quite evolved says that the probability of all this happening is 0. I wish I could ask a statistician if it is not the case that given infinity, the probability is that *everything* will eventually happen. And that there is nothing that *won't* happen. Em ps sorry I know I said I was backing away... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:36:28 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: NJC now Black Eyed Peas one of my favorite people ever, the heavenly hell wrote: >I have to say, although the Black Eyed Peas are not the sort of band I would >normally like, I have liked every song I've heard so far - and they're very >popular here, so you hear a lot! And when my budget allows, I may even buy >an album! > >I would also echo Vince's sentiments concerning "Where Is The Love". My >12-year-old nephew loves this song, so I heard it possibly a million times >last Xmas ;o) - but it's got a great message (which my nephew also >appreciated). And Vince, you'll be glad to hear his current "favourite" >song is D12 - My Band.... > They are rather likable, aren't they? And your nephew shows great taste!!!!!! To preserve your reputation, please do not tell everyone whose band D12 is, or who raps the lead on My Band, and do like the plain or peanut M&Ms better? :-) As for the lyrics for Where is the Love - since that song has been mentioned again, I repost the lyrics to share with all who don't know the song or remember from my last December posting of it what the lyrics of that Black Eyed Pea's song are - and if it is your first time, keep on reading... Vince what's wrong with the world, mama? people livin' like they ain't got no mamas I think the whole world's addicted to the drama only attracted to the things that'll bring the trama overseas yeah, we tryin' to stop terrorism but we still got terrorists here livin' in the U.S.A, the big C.I.A the bloods & the crips, and the KKK but if you only have love for your own ways then you only leave space to discriminate and to discriminate only generates hate and when you hate, then you're bound to get irate (yeah) madness is what you demonstrate and that's exactly how anger works and operates man ya gotta have love, this'll set us straight take control of your mind and meditate let your soul gravitate, to the love ya'll people killin', people dyin' children hurt and ya hear them cryin' can you practice what you preach, and would you turn the other cheek father, father, father, help us send some guidance from above 'cause people got me, got me questionin: where is the love? (love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (where is the love, the love, the love) it just ain't the same old ways have changed new days are strange, is world insane? if love and peace is so strong why are there pieces of love that don't belong nations droppin' bombs chemical gasses fillin' lungs of little ones with ongoin sufferin', as the youth die young so ask yourself, is the lovin' really gone so I can ask myself, really, what is going wrong with this world that we livin' in (livin' in) people keep on givin in (givin in) makin' wrong decisions, only visions of them dividends (yeah) not respectin' eachother, deny thy brother a war is goin' on but the reason's undercover the truth is kept secret, and swept under the rug if you never know truth, then you never know love where's the love ya'll? c'mon (i don't know) where's the truth ya'll? c'mon (i don't know) and where's the love ya'll? people killin', people dyin' children hurt and ya hear them cryin' can you practice what you preach, and would you turn the other cheek father, father, father, help us send some guidance from above 'cause people got me, got me questionin: where is the love? (love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (where is the love, the love, the love) I feel the weight of the world on my shoulder (shoulder) as I'm getting older, ya'll people gets colder (colder) most of us only care about money makin' (money makin') selfishness got us followin the wrong direction (wrong direction) wrong information always shown by the media (media) negative images is the main criteria (criteria) infecting the young minds faster than bacteria (bacteria) kids wanna act like what they see in the cinema (cinema) whatever happened to the values of humanity? whatever happened to the fairness and equality instead of spreading love we spreadin' animosity lack of understandin' leading us away from unity that's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin under (under) that's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin down (down) It's no wonder why sometimes I'm feelin under (under) gotta keep my faith alive till love is found (found) people killin', people dyin' children hurt and ya hear them cryin' can you practice what you preach, and would you turn the other cheek father, father, father, help us send some guidance from above 'cause people got me, got me questionin: where is the love? (love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (the love) where is the love? (where is the love, the love, the love) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC now great artists - --- vince wrote: > The gift of talent can be so unfairly promiscuous. what was that thing Bob Dylan said? "A poet is a naked man" ?? and everyone KNOWS not to stand in line in front of a naked man, right? :P Em ps I know I may have misquoted..might be a "poet is a naked person".... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:35:15 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Stage and Screen Star Susan Egan in Concert - Nov. 7th at Joe's Pub! > *** Susan Egan - Front & Center in Concert > *** Sunday, November 7th 2004 > *** 7:00PM at Joe's Pub > > Buy Tickets Now: > https://www.telecharge.com/go.aspx?MD=102&PID=1880&AID=VEN000080300 > > Susan Egan's voice has been called, "the perfect Broadway instrument: a > balanced combination of technique and moxie." Her critically acclaimed > solo cabaret encompasses music from her many Broadway shows and > recordings, displaying a mix of standards (Gershwin, Porter, Rodgers and > Hammerstein), modern staples (Sondheim, Jerry Herman, Kander and Ebb, Alan > Menken) and exciting new material from New York's most esteemed upcoming > writers (Heisler/Goldrich, Georgia Stitt, Jason Robert Brown). > > And now with her latest CD, Coffee House, Susan blends classic rock material > from writers such as Joni Mitchell as well! Combined with personal stories > and her engaging musical philosophies, Susan's concert has been acclaimed as > "an all night conversation with your best friend." > > Musical Direction by Christopher McGovern. > > Buy Tickets Now: > https://www.telecharge.com/go.aspx?MD=102&PID=1880&AID=VEN000080300 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:45:23 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc > I wish I could ask a statistician if it is not the case that given > infinity, the probability is that *everything* will eventually happen. > And that there is nothing that *won't* happen. > Em You're absolutely right, given the nature of electrons, etc, there is indeed a probability that for instance if you drop a rock now it will rise in the air and not fall. How many times have you seen this in your life? Anybody seen that? Now picture all the events that had to take place to create nature, animals, etc and think of the probability for this happening by "chance", uh! Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:49:22 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc >> I wish I could ask a statistician if it is not the case that given >> infinity, the probability is that *everything* will eventually happen. >> And that there is nothing that *won't* happen. >> Em > > You're absolutely right, given the nature of electrons, etc, there is indeed > a probability that for instance if you drop a rock now it will rise in the > air and not fall. > How many times have you seen this in your life? Anybody seen that? But that is a very miniscule verification procedure. Any one of us have only been around for a speck of time. I've never seen your Social Security number, but I still believe it exists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:31:48 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc > But that is a very miniscule verification procedure. Any one of us have only > been around for a speck of time. I've never seen your Social Security > number, but I still believe it exists. Regarding Steven's post, I specify this could happen on earth and not in no-gravity space. Jerry, sure this is a minuscule sample. Hey I'm not writing a scientific paper here. Since you're a librarian, perhaps you can document things like that happening? Anyway what's the point of this diversion? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:26:44 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc >> But that is a very miniscule verification procedure. Any one of us have > only >> been around for a speck of time. I've never seen your Social Security >> number, but I still believe it exists. > > Regarding Steven's post, I specify this could happen on earth and not in > no-gravity space. > Jerry, sure this is a minuscule sample. Hey I'm not writing a scientific > paper here. > Since you're a librarian, perhaps you can document things like that > happening? > > Anyway what's the point of this diversion? > > Laurent > I like discussing such things with Joni people. They always have intelligent things to talk about (even if I don't necessarily agree). I think religion really comes down to faith, not logic or science, anyway. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:45:07 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc I think religion > really comes down to faith, not logic or science, anyway. > > Jerry > Perhaps, but my personal triggering factor of faith was that science couldn't supply any explanation about the origin of life. And a scientific probability of how nature could exist in a harmonious (symbiotic is the word?) way is 0. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:39:13 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc > I think religion >> really comes down to faith, not logic or science, anyway. >> >> Jerry >> > Perhaps, but my personal triggering factor of faith was that science > couldn't supply any explanation about the origin of life. And a scientific > probability of how nature could exist in a harmonious (symbiotic is the > word?) way is 0. > > Laurent > But that doesn't scientifically raise the logical conclusion of a Supreme Being, either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: religion, beliefs, science, njc I feel us entering the realm of extremely turbulent indigo. Where you can't see the horizon and nothing is as it should be. Where the northern thinkers co-mingle with and morph into the southern hip-shakers. Where what goes around comes around, and where occiasionally we repeat ourselves, and from time to time, paint with a VERY wide brush! :P lurv, Em - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > I think religion > >> really comes down to faith, not logic or science, anyway. > >> > >> Jerry > >> > > Perhaps, but my personal triggering factor of faith was that > science > > couldn't supply any explanation about the origin of life. And a > scientific > > probability of how nature could exist in a harmonious (symbiotic is > the > > word?) way is 0. > > > > Laurent > > > But that doesn't scientifically raise the logical conclusion of a > Supreme > Being, either. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #394 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)