From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #291 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 30 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 291 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #184 [Melissa ] RE: Joni and Bob ["mike pritchard" ] "Happy Birthday Jimmy" [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] RE: "Happy Birthday Jimmy" - NJC ["hell" ] Re: "Happy Birthday Jimmy"njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: anti american, njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: anti american, njc [Em ] Re: anti american, njc ["Norman Pennington" ] TBOS cover [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Fahrenheit 9/11 NJC ["Suzanne MarcAurele" ] Re: Seeking attendees for Jonifest [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: "Happy Birthday Jimmy" ["Steven Polifka" ] RE: "Happy Birthday Jimmy"njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 [Zachary Scot Johnson ] Re: anti american, njc [colin ] Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 [Ken ] RE: anti american, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] Happy Birthday [Jerry Notaro ] Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 njc [Randy Remote ] Re: anti american, njc [dsk ] Re: Joni and Bob ["G'n H" ] RE: anti american, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: anti american ["robin mortlock" ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] "Happy Birthday Jimmy" ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: anti american, njc [dsk ] Re:Seeking attendees for Jonifest ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: anti american, njc [dsk ] me, too njc [Jennifer Faulkner ] njc [Jennifer Faulkner ] Re: anti american, njc [Randy Remote ] guns njc [colin ] letter NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni and Bob ["Martin Giles" ] Re: anti american, njc [Lori Fye ] Re: anti american, njc [Em ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:41:38 +1000 From: Melissa Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #184 On 30/6/04 5:00 Bob wrote: > That will be a draw for some I suppose, but it's like > buying a pack of baseball cards for the bubble gum. > > Here in Australia, we had football cards, and being a 3shiela2 (Oz slang for > girl) I actually preferred the bubble gum... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:21:49 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob >>Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth "Rip down all hate," I screamed<< And me, singing 'hat rack prejudice' all these years... mike, in barcelona and in embarrassment ... NP Mondegreen green grass of home - Tom Jones ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:13:58 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: "Happy Birthday Jimmy" Here's tou you my friend on your special day:~) May it be as full of joy as what you bring to everyone! "HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIMMY" Now bend over.... OXOX Ming ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:55:46 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: "Happy Birthday Jimmy" - NJC Mingus wrote: > Here's tou you my friend on your special day:~) > May it be as full of joy as what you bring to everyone! I second that emotion! To one of my favourite JMDLers, who I haven't a thing from in AGES! HAPPY BIRTHDAY! love and big hugs Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:24:55 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Happy Birthday Jimmy"njc H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y DEPUTY!!!!! miss u Rosie (aka miss crump) xxoo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:34:12 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: anti american, njc Kate quoted part of my post: > >Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is strong disapproval for the > government, culture, history, and/or people of the United States of America. > > >From a conservative's POV, the more extreme voices on the Left (Moore's > included) are guilty of indulging in anti-Americanism. This tendancy of the > Left to disparage America is particularly galling to those of us who believe > (strongly, even) the US is perhaps the most idealistic and benevolent > culture in history.< and then asked: > which definition of anti American or America are you referring to above? Its > such a vague statement... & your comment leads me to think that you have not > seen this movie yet... > Uh, Kate...I think your question is vague, but maybe it's because I just got up. M. Moore expresses strong disapproval of the government, the culture, and the people of the US. I don't THINK he's maligned our HISTORY (yet). Did you go to the page I quoted? MUCH discussion of the subject, including a mention of Moore by name, coincidentally. Here it is again, if you missed it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-americanism Wikipedia is a "free" encyclopedia with a suposedly neutral POV. The encyclopedia entries are jointly edited by a group of people with widely diverging views. The "discussion" pages concerning the editing process for the encyclopedia entries is fascinating. I've never claimed to have seen F911 and I will NOT give my money to that slovenly (mentally and physically) SOB. He and I parted company years ago...after I saw "Roger and Me." The price of admission to that film is all of my money he's gonna get! I was a GM employee (living in Detroit) at the time "Roger and Me" came out and am familiar with the whole Flint scenario. Moore is just SO full of it... Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:40:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: anti american, njc from Buck's post: "There's nothing wrong with being anti-capitalist, unless one asks "what are the alternatives to capitalism?" If the answers/alternatives are socialism, communism, or any other system that stifles individual initiative, responsibility, and opportunity, then I submit there's a LOT wrong with being anti-capitalist. Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary." Hi Buck, and all. this is also just my .02. I think that socialism only stifles the human initiative of people who are "entrepeneurs". I, for one, have not one entrepeneurial bone in my body. Creativity, to my mind, is not the same as entrepeneurism. Yet I get up every day and go to a job, and do that job and function quite well as a "cog". I see capitalism not doing too well now..so many small businesses, who can't afford health insurance. I see this as the fault of capitalism itself. I see the huge businesses like the WalMarts etc...and I see the small businesses who can't afford health ins. - and not a whole lot in between. My family came to this country from Cuba (Spain before that) WAYYYYYYY before the Castro revolution. Like in the 1800's. Cuz things were better here for some reason for factory workers. Now there are days I sit here and wonder if I wouldn't like to go BACK to Cuba and try their socialist lifestyle. Wonder if they'd take me. Cuz I'm not getting rich or even particularly thriving in this capitalist society. And on days when my air conditioner breaks and I can't afford to get it fixed, I think I might as well be down there in Cuba. And I work every day, usually more than the required 8 hours. Learn new technologies for my company. Just not entrepeneurial, ya know?? and I don't even WANT to be entrepeneurial. Its so dicklike. The worker is being phased out. And THAT is anti American. I would favor a system (like say Germany?) where entrepeneurial people can try their "thing" if they're busting at the seams to do so, but where some stuff is socialized. (health care) Not everyone thrives under capitalism, even if they work hard. I feel that to thrive under capitalism, you have to have a bit of a fox or weasel in your brain. Like how can I f_ck that guy over in a subtle way and get just a bit ahead. I think it sucks. (for me) But I feel very American, and realize these "discomforts" are part of a growing process, and that we're not "done" yet. Not finished evolving. "Fall mountain, just don't fall on me". Em ps: and again, this is just my .02 for the purpose of discourse. Not saying I'm right and others are wrong. I seem to just be along for the ride, and to vote for Democrats ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 06:54:53 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: anti american, njc Bob asked: > (My add: **....the more extreme voices on the Left (Moore's included) are guilty of indulging in anti-Americanism.**) This tendancy of the Left to > disparage America... > > Buck, don't you think that this mindset is the result of Bush's "either > you're for us or you're for the terrorists" comments? I mean, he has led a lot of > people to believe that he stands for God, America and all that and anyone who > disagrees is "disparaging America". I'm a member of 'the Left' I suppose, and I > love the values that our country stands for which is WHY I'm so opposed to > what this administration is doing. I feel like I have to apologize sometimes for > being a part of how our country is viewed in the world today, while at the > same time I'm proud to sing our National Anthem at a Greenville Braves game. OF > COURSE I'm not for the Saudi terrorists, but I'm certainly not for the > terrorist mentality of our own culture either. > > I know I harp about Ani, but here's a recent lyric: > > "i love my country > by which i mean > i am indebted joyfully > to all the people throughout its history > who have fought the government to make right > where so many cunning sons and daughters > our foremothers and forefathers > came singing through slaughter > came through hell and high water > so that we could stand here > and behold breathlessly the sight > how a raging river of tears > cut a grand canyon of light" > Great lyric, Bob, no kidding. W's "fur us or agin us" comment wasn't directed at an internal (US) audience, it was aimed at our erstwhile allies in the Middle East, as I remember it...in the context of "if you directly or indirectly support terrorists, we'll come after you." Note I added "the more extreme voices on the Left" to the quoted part of my post, and this phrase is KEY to my anger. I have no issue with dissent. Dissenting POVs and *rational* discussion of differences about issues that affect our very lives is necessary to forge a consensus. Once that consensus is reached, the loyal opposition has a DUTY to refrain from undercutting the effort to win the war. And, consensus WAS reached by overwhelming bipartisan vote in the congress. I simply cannot imagine the level of rhetoric I'm seeing today from the Left occurring during WW II...it's unimaginable. I've said this before, I'll say it again: Vitriol, accusations of the most venal kind (read that as "insults"), innuendo, and distortions are NOT a rational discussion of the differences we have. I feel no need to apologize for what this country is doing. Our (you may say "Bush's") policies are well-stated, our intentions are clear, and our goal (the defeat of radical Islam and the jihadists...ie., win this war) is just. We (the US) didn't start this war, but we will, God willing, FINISH it. And I gotta go now. I'm taking my seven year-old son and my seven year-old grandson to Carlsbad Caverns today and am really looking forward to the trip. Gotta go pack... Best Regards and Be Well, bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:50:10 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: TBOS cover I have just checked out the CDuniverse website and looked up joni mitchell and they have just set TBOS cover on there - I have been checking it for the past few weeks in case it is set up and now it is... What does everybody think? Is the original painting taken from the Gap Ad? Yet another ironic statement.... Much Joni Jamie Zoob ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:52:34 -0400 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Fahrenheit 9/11 NJC Ripped off the title, ripped a helluva lot of bucks into his bank account, ALL IN AN EFFORT TO CAPTURE THE ORIGINAL BREATH THAT AIRED OVER 30 YEARS AGO - haven't seen it, but you know what? Since it isn't a solution and just the same old same old I'd rather spend it on me - since I doubt seriously this new pastor has any intention of taking the vows of poverty the new young duped will - i.e. ambition is ambition and the rest are not heard S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:06:16 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Seeking attendees for Jonifest In a message dated 6/30/2004 12:03:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, PassScribe@aol.com writes: Of course, it's up to Ashara since it's an event that grew out of her backyard gatherings but it could help make the weekend a big success as well as introducng some possible new members to the JMDL site. Actually, I am just helping out this year, so it's not up to me at all. There is a committee to decide things now and do publicity of whatever kind. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:39:37 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: "Happy Birthday Jimmy" Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy! Hope you have a fecking Happy Birthday! (And perhaps a little fecking ON your birthday...) Gotta luv me, Steve >>> 06/30/04 05:13AM >>> Here's tou you my friend on your special day:~) May it be as full of joy as what you bring to everyone! "HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIMMY" Now bend over.... OXOX Ming ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:08:26 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: "Happy Birthday Jimmy"njc jimmy, daddy daddy DADDY!!!!! i love you and i will always be your baby walter. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wally -- in the middle of finals and writing papers about marx and dreams and things, thus keeping the BF at bay for a few weeks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Zachary Scot Johnson Subject: Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 Hi all, I've been lurking awhile, but had to pop up for a response to this. I agree wholeheartedly, Ms. Bennett. I saw this movie when it came out and though I was and am of the same basic belief platform that Mike Moore is, I was in no way prepared for what I was about to see. The movie will break your heart. Throughout it, I kept wondering what Joni and others like Patty Griffin might think about it. I know a lot of celebrities have been voicing their praise for it, but mostly actors thus far have been vocal, with the exception being Madonna, who's encouraging those who come to her concert tour to see it. I am 22 years old and after I saw it, both my friend and I remained in quite a state of shock from the information we'd just received. I don't think we were even able to talk about it for a few days, but our audience applauded at the end, too. Our concern in seeing it is that perhaps Moore is running the risk of preaching to the choir on this one--I don't imagine staunch Bush defenders will be showing up and supporting Mr. Moore's efforts to unveil the overwhelming web of deceit even in the notion that doing so might make them appear open minded. I hope there's at least some marginal vote that will be affected by this issue, that perhaps the intense controversy or word of mouth will get those who perhaps don't have an opinion out to see it. If nothing else, I believe the last election showed us that every vote does indeed matter and I'm glad that this film has been made and hope that it continues to be successful and doesn't lose it's credibility among these rumors of fabrication (which, for one, I don't believe). This movie, though incredibly difficult to watch, is important and I would strongly encourage everyone to see it. Zach Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:33:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: speaking of dylan & F9/11 http://movies2.nytimes.com/rnr/movies/rnr_read.html?fid=.f5d2e71 &showtimes=1&trailer=1&sort=helpful While I and my fellow Canadians go to the polls tomorrow to elect a new federal government (with the frightening prospect of right-wing Conservative party forming a minority government), I was impressed with the number of my fellow citizens who packed a Super-Size-Me theatre in the Vancouver suburb of Coquitlam. And, as I'm sure is happening in theatres throughout the United States, the audience cried openly at the grief of Lila Lipscomb and the innocent Iraqi citizens whose lives have been shattered beyond repair. And, at the closing credits, we broke into enthusiastic applause. While the singer/songwriter of the 60's was writing their protest song on an American campus, it will be the film students of this generation who chart the political discourse of the second half of this decade. Michael Moore, whatever your leaning, just may be their Bob Dylan. This movie was astonishing. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:10:32 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: anti american, njc Norman Pennington wrote: > (the defeat of radical >Islam and the jihadists... > perhaps gwb would do better to defeat the radical xtians in his own country. theya re no different in their aims than the fundy Muslims. but since he is one, that is not likely to be tried. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:07:32 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: anti american, njc Em wrote: >Not everyone thrives under capitalism, > I do not have an alternative way tosuggest but have known for along time that capitalism doesn't work well. Maybe it works better than other systems. However, it seems to me that capitlist systems are also meritocracies and that is basically flawed and unfair. On the surface it sounds good that if you work hard and use your brains you can have it all-become rich, nice house, car, clothes etc. It ignores the fact that people are not born with equal abilities. If you are born(or become) physically or mentally disadvantaged, born with a lower iq, beome ill or are so abused you neevr recover, basically you can kiss goodbye to the good life. It is bollocks to suggest we can all have. we cannot. And those that can have, can only have because of thsoe that can't have. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:21:49 -0400 From: Ken Subject: Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 Moore addressed this very question in an interview last night. Infact using those same words "preaching to the choir" According to him the movie out grossed both White Chicks and Dodge Ball in extremely conservative\Rep. areas. He gave examples but I'm afraid I don't remember them. Zachary Scot Johnson wrote: >Hi all, > Our concern in >seeing it is that perhaps Moore is running the risk of >preaching to the choir on this one--I don't imagine >staunch Bush defenders will be showing up and >supporting Mr. Moore's efforts to unveil the ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:34:07 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: anti american, njc > M. Moore expresses strong disapproval of the government, the culture,and the people of the US. I don't THINK he's maligned our HISTORY (yet).< Sorry if the question was vague but you answered my question well anyway... so thanks. This is my view- I think people throw around the word anti American so freely these days to describe anyone they don't agree with. Like somehow THEIR beliefs are what everyone else who lives in our country should have. How ignorant & arrogant! Our country is so culturally, politically & religiously (etc) diverse & that is what makes it so rich & interesting & challenging. Anyway, I agree that Moore criticizes the government- (always a very important thing to do in my opinion) & yes some parts of our culture (another good thing imo) but only a small portion imo (taking on every aspect of our culture would be impossible for anyone)... He criticizes both political parties btw as well he should. Anyway I find Moore to be a champion of the everyday people as opposed to those who are in power & wealthy. I find him to be more of a question asker than an answer giver. Of course I respect your decision not to see this film but only reading about it will not tell much. Maybe you can sneak in somehow! Just kidding. But I do find it ironic that you have such strong emotional views about the man (& his personal habits even) without having seen much of his work. I will check out the discussion page, thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:21:58 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Happy Birthday Put on that tight halter top with the black mini skirt and fuck me pumps Paz, As an honorary gay man, and Joan Crawford fan, you know they are called 3come fuck me pumps.2 Happy Birthday Jimmy. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:46:12 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: anti american, njc PC Norman Pennington wrote: > > ... And, consensus WAS reached by overwhelming bipartisan vote in > the congress. Yeah, I couldn't believe how easily Congress just rolled over and gave Bush what he wanted. Bunch of cowards just thinking about getting that vote over with because mid-term reelections were going to take place soon (and cagey of the Bushies to push the issue when they did). Of course, Bush said he'd make every effort to use diplomacy first, blah blah blah blah blah. Stupid to believe that. Once a threat is made, it's rare that a person backs down from it (especially not Bush who wants to act like "big tough guy"). Bush planned to go to war and all that talk was just for show. If *I* knew that THEN, why didn't most members of Congress have a clue? Well, there was that "un-Patriotic anti-American" label the vindictive Bushies would have slapped on them (and if you were a Republican congressmember, then NO money for your reelection campaign if you don't go along), but still, there's no good excuse for just rolling over like puppy dogs on such an important issue. > I simply cannot imagine the level of rhetoric I'm seeing > today from the Left occurring during WW II...it's unimaginable. Of course there wasn't this level of disagreement regarding WWII!!! I don't understand why you'd use that example to add to your anger about the left. There would have been LOTS of disagreement then if the U.S. had bombed Mexico or India after Pearl Harbor rather than go after the killers leading the charge. What if the U.S. had bombed the Nazis a little bit, and then spent most of the U.S. resources on bombing (and then rebuilding) Mexico or India because those countries MIGHT sometime in the future do the U.S. harm? And in the meantime the Nazis got even stronger. That is what Bush has done in this current war, and damn right there's lots of disagreement with it. The Bushies' actions do not make any sense to a lot of people. After 12 years of sanctions and flyovers, "fixing Iraq" (and just maybe that could have been done without destroying the country first) could have waited another year or two until al Qaeda was weakened, if not destroyed. There was plenty of rhetoric and disagreement during the Vietnam War. Why not use that as an example of (excessive, in some people's opinion) rhetoric from the left? That was another war based on what MIGHT happen. > ... I feel no need to apologize > for what this country is doing. Our (you may say "Bush's") policies are > well-stated, our intentions are clear, and our goal (the defeat of radical > Islam and the jihadists...ie., win this war) is just. We (the US) didn't > start this war, but we will, God willing, FINISH it. Handled differently, this war (defeating terrorists) would be closer to the end than it is. Bush's actions have created generations of terrorists. Maybe that's what the Bushies wanted. It's hard to believe that they would not understand the consequences of their actions. > And I gotta go now. I'm taking my seven year-old son and my seven year-old > grandson to Carlsbad Caverns today and am really looking forward to the > trip. Gotta go pack... Sounds good. Hope you're leaving the war and everything else behind and having a great time. Debra Shea, in the canyons, and later a cavern, of NYC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:54:51 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: speaking of dylan & F9/11 njc Ken wrote: > According to him the movie out grossed both White Chicks > and Dodge Ball in extremely conservative\Rep. areas. > He gave examples but I'm afraid I don't remember them. Yes, it made $22 million in 3 days. In contrast "The Passion of the Christ" made $187 million in 5 days. The conclusion I draw from this is that approximately 5 times more Americans prefer watching a hippie peace activist from 2000 years ago brutally tortured in graphic detail to watching a modern-day money changer at the temple being exposed for what he is (and one who claims to be a follower of said peacenik). Something to reflect on, before celebrating too much. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:58:52 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: anti american, njc Kate Bennett wrote: > > ... But I do find it ironic that you have such strong > emotional views about the man (& his personal habits even) without having > seen much of his work. Right-wing web sites and tv commentators are letting people know what to think about the film, even though most of the talk I've heard and things I've read have little to do with the film, and almost everything to do with Moore's viewpoint, with jabs at his physical appearance and using statements he's (supposedly) made in interviews in Europe to try to destroy him, and by destroying him, to keep the film from as many people as possible. That is one propaganda style... confuse the issue in order to dismiss it all. The right-wing is very good at that, and also good at making people feel smart for having those "opinions" they've been given. (That's a general observation and not aimed at anyone in particular here.) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:15:54 +0300 From: "G'n H" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Not that we need to compare, but talking about music and composings, I find Joni more interesting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Em" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:25 PM quote: > Bob's lyrics are more "songy" than Joni's. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:31:11 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: anti american, njc >with jabs at his physical appearance< It is no longer okay to criticize someone for the color of their skin but many still think it is okay to criticize someone for the shape or size of their body? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:23:55 +0000 From: "robin mortlock" Subject: RE: anti american You can call me "anti american" if our present administration >encapsulates > > what "American" means. Marianne You can call me Al... > >Victor You can call me communist..... DOWN WITH CAPITALISM - HOoRAH!!! comradely, spideog - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:58:09 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] "Happy Birthday Jimmy" Happy Birthday Jimmy! Hope your day is as wonderful as you are! love db >>> MINGSDANCE@aol.com 6/30/2004 5:13:58 AM >>> Here's tou you my friend on your special day:~) May it be as full of joy as what you bring to everyone! "HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIMMY" Now bend over.... OXOX Ming This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:45:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Faulkner Subject: WES! ^_^ Hey Wes, I couldn't find your email address, but I wanted to let you know that at least on my part, I'm not angry with you for your opinion. It's fun to talk to people with different points of view. That's a good way to learn about things. Otherwise you are preaching to the converted and just mulling over the same issues. When you talk to others you get to think about new things and that's great. So please don't let us scare you away. Good to have you here, Jennifer Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:57:37 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: anti american, njc colin wrote: > > perhaps gwb would do better to defeat the radical xtians in his own > country. theya re no different in their aims than the fundy Muslims. > but since he is one, that is not likely to be tried. If the situation wasn't so dangerous to us all, I'd enjoy pondering how interesting it is that the world is being guided by a pair of enemies so similar in attitude. Both believe they are doing the will of God. Both feel justified in killing innocent civilians in order to achieve their goal. Al Qaeda's goal is clear, but what exactly is Bush's ultimate goal? I've often wondered why fundamentalist Christians back Israel so strongly. As any dogmatic group or person does, they think everyone must believe the way they do or be condemned (to hell or whatever that group decides is just punishment), and yet they are so concerned about Jews and Israel? Never made sense to me. But I read recently that Christian evangelicals believe that Israel must be made whole before Christ can come again, which would be the end of the world and something they look forward to and would like to hasten if they can. Ah ha, well, then the concern about Israel and "fixing" the Middle East makes sense now, it's the fundamentalists' influence even though they keep quiet about their true goal (because they know it's scary to most "unenlightened by Jesus" people). As long as the fundamentalist Christians are influencing this country's policies and have their man Bush in charge, we are all in extreme danger. The fundamentalist Christians are probably happy when other people scratch their heads and wonder what's going on, and come up with oil as an explanation. I see this world struggle as the last gasp of fundamentalism, in all its current forms. It feels like we're all being squeezed on every side in order to force us into some other broader new consciousness (if we don't die in the struggle first, that is). It's the conflict between people who do not want change (and to protect against it even more thoroughly, want to go backward) and the natural forces of change (people learn, people's awareness grows, and who knows where THAT might lead? Very scary to fundamentalists). I don't know what that new consciousness will be, but since it's being fought against so fiercely (even though it's underneath the obvious conflicts), I expect it to be something grand and hope that most of us get to experience it. Gosh, that sounds dire, doesn't it? Well, it's a thought and I think my final one to the list for a while since I'm heading out of NYC soon for vacation. Happy Canada Day tomorrow to our neighbors and Happy Independence Day July 4 to all in the U.S. Stay safe. Watch out for those pretty sparklers. They get HOT! Debra Shea, soon taking a break from NYC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:03:58 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re:Seeking attendees for Jonifest Kenny I think this is a good idea. If you have or know anyone who has connections of this type let's talk about it. Allison E. if you're out there are you still hosting a radio program? If so would you be able to advertise jonifest there? db >>> 6/29/2004 10:59:57 PM >>> With all the talk of a possible low turnout for this year's Jonifest, I thought I'd suggest an idea I mentioned to Ashara last year, but too late to implement: how about seeking attendees from OUTSIDE the JMDL site? I'm pretty sure a "free public-service" announcement on a station like WFUV in New York (where "Blue" placed #7 and "Court & Spark" placed #27 in "The Top 100 albums of the Century" by listeners a few years ago) could shake up a few more folks interested in the drive up to Full Moon. Of course, it's up to Ashara since it's an event that grew out of her backyard gatherings but it could help make the weekend a big success as well as introducng some possible new members to the JMDL site. Just trying to think up ways to help it along.... Kenny B This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:08:33 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: wikipedia.org NJC I've enjoyed looking around the website you recently posted Buck. Thought I'd post one excerpt here that has relevancy to the recent F9/11 discussions. >Patriotism and recent U.S. history Lastly, it is been claimed that patriotic fervor has decreased the ability of Americans to obtain objective information about the world situation. In particular, the journal Political Science Quarterly published research showing that those who obtained their news from outlets that appear to make a concerted effort to be patriotic were more likely to have factual misconceptions about the Iraq war. These misperceptions were: that weapons of mass destruction had been found, that evidence linked Saddam Hussein to Al-Qaeda, and that world public opinion favored the war. Respondents that received their news from public broadcasting, conversely, were far less likely to hold these perceptions.< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:06:39 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: anti american, njc Kate Bennett wrote: > > >with jabs at his physical appearance< > > It is no longer okay to criticize someone for the color of their skin but > many still think it is okay to criticize someone for the shape or size of > their body? Yes, from what I can tell, it's the last type of insult people freely make, at least here in the U.S. Usually it's applied to women (think Rosie O'Donnell, think Rosanne), so it's a sign of conservatives' lack of critical thinking when they use that against Michael Moore. He scares them. And I say GOOD to that. Okay, enough generalizations for today... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:08:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Faulkner Subject: me, too njc Me, too, Colin. I wasn't an army brat. My father was in the air force and got stationed in Okinawa where he met my mum and I was born in the US, but my dad was never around so it was sort of strange. I was raised in America by an Okinawan. I always heard small criticisms about this country growing up, and my American pride is not like that of my peers (especially here in the South it is strong). Jennifer Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Faulkner Subject: njc Y'all can call me anything as long as y'all don't call me late for supper! But seriously, folks, stop calling me surely. ^_^ Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:55:22 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: anti american, njc Norman Pennington wrote: > > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-americanism, briefly quoted here: > > Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is strong disapproval for the > government, culture, history, and/or people of the United States of America. This definition is absurd. The use of "and/or" in this sentence basically means that someone who disapproves of the US government is anti- American. I guess that would include those who disapproved of Clinton, as well as anyone who has challenged the reigning government throughout our history. Pure hogwash. This kind of right wing name calling is a popular attempt to smear those who call attention to the thieves in power. To my way of thinking, someone who uses their powerful (un)elected office to further their idealogical agendas and enrich their billionaire friends is a traitor to our country, and anti-American. Someone who facillitates the wholesale exporting of American jobs offshore, (and Clinton is guilty as hell for pushing NAFTA, too), who robs from the schools and middle class while giving tax breaks to multinational corporations who hide their tax-free assets offshore, is anti- American. Too often, this term "anti-American" is applied to those who are neither anti-American, nor anti-capitalism, but anti-imperialism. RR Imperialism- the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:26:29 +0100 From: colin Subject: guns njc I understand the gun thing is written in your constitution. i also understand that peopel do not like being told what they can and cannot do. However, the frequent shootings, en masse, that you have are directly related to availabilty of guns. Yes, people shoot guns, the guns don't shoot themselves. Could colu8mbine or any other of your en masse shootings, like the sniper thing in washington, have happened with knives? Could a child accidently shoot a knife into itself or it's sibling or friend? Do knives stab people by accident? do they just go off? Imo, suppoorting the free availabilty of guns and arguing that guns don't kill people is dishonest and seems to me to be putting one's desire above the welfare of others. Yes, it is true, that even if guns were not freely asvailable, if the right to carry arms was removed, there would still be guns and the crims would still get them and use them. But it would save a hell of a lot of lives anyway. It seems to me tho that these saved lives are not considered more worhty than a desire. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:42:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: letter NJC I've excerpted some portions of a local letter to the editor here which underlies some of the points being made here about F9/11 (I left out parts which describe the movie which I thought might be a spoiler for those who have not yet seen it but are planning to): "Since seeing Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11,'' I have read many criticisms of it. While I agree with some of the issues raised, the whole debate over the movie misses the most important points. It is not Mr. Moore's voice but the voices of the ordinary Americans he interviews that have continued to haunt me since I left the theater in tears. I find it interesting that the most fervent critics of the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11'' seem more obsessed with attacking Mr. Moore than in taking on the points he makes in his film." http://news.newspress.com/editorial/063004letters.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:34:05 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob Hey Les Thanks for your post. I think you make a good point about Dylan being the first to write in this vein. Of all the songs you quoted, the only one I've heard is Tamborine Man, and I'd never listened to the lyrics before. That's the one that intrigues me most, on first reading! Thanks to everyone who has posted snippets and complete songs. I've got lot's to get my teeth into for sure. Sorry it's been a while since I joined in this thread, even though I started it - I just don't get time to keep up with things, which is the reason I lurk mostly! Martin. > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:46:03 -0600 > From: "Les Irvin" > Subject: RE: Joni and Bob > > > I'm just trying to get some > > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > > poetry in popular music? > > First a quote from Joni from 1994 > (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): > "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a light bulb went > on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything now. Prior > to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never went into > songs." > > Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, single-handedly made it > OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* is what all > the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and consistently > better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does have a larger > lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by him - as > opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was simply > waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his songs. Not to > say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as 1962. > > Witness... > > Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) > I remember how I get carried away. > I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. > Other fellas call me up for a date, > but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. > > Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: > If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's so unjust, > Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with dust. > Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your blood it > must refuse to flow, > For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! > > > Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) > He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: > I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. > I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. > Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, > Paths of victory, We shall walk. > > > Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) > Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. > Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. > Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. > Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. > > Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: > Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, Vanished from my > hand, > Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. > My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to meet > And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. > > > Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) > Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say > Girl, I still love you I'll always love you > Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag > When your baby says goodbye > > Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: > We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, > And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. > Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, > To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? > Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? > > > Just my humble opinion... > Les (not from London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:33:45 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: anti american, njc Em wrote: > I seem to just be along for the ride, and to vote for Democrats So you're not one of the Cuban-American Floridians who votes Republican? ; ) (Thought not.) Speaking of Cuba, Em, what do you think of the latest rule on allowing Americans to travel to visit their relatives in Cuba only once every 3 years? I think it sucks. If Cubans were keeping Americans out, that would be a different story. But here's the reason for this: "The new U.S. rules are designed to keep American dollars from reaching the cash-strapped island, in an effort to hasten the end of Cuban President Fidel Castro's rule. Travel to Cuba was already severely restricted before the new measures."* What's the hurry? Castro is fecking OLD!! He won't live forever. Unfortunately, neither will the grandparents of Americans who are affected by this new rule. America the free, my ass. When you tell Americans they can't go to another country to visit their old grandmas, that ain't freedom. This seems like little more than a ploy by conservatives to "kick a Commie for George." As if this will somehow help them win votes. I hope Cuban-Americans - -- and all Floridians, for that matter -- see it for what it is and shut down the GOP in November and then throw Jeb out too. Lori, who wishes she could vote in Florida *From http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=06858E52-954A-4955-A93BDEE6C4C0541D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:03:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: anti american, njc Lori wrote: > Em wrote: > > > I seem to just be along for the ride, and to vote for Democrats > > So you're not one of the Cuban-American Floridians who votes > Republican? ; ) > > (Thought not.) > > Speaking of Cuba, Em, what do you think of the latest rule on > allowing Americans > to travel to visit their relatives in Cuba only once every 3 years? No I don't vote Republican. I come from a line of workers. Not entrepeneurs. And my paternal grandparents would spin in their graves if they knew that my father now does. (if he still does) Its just harder now, period, to go to Cuba. If Bush *goes away* this election, I hope it once again gets easier like I think it was under Clinton. I hope to go someday. Actually, I hope to go before Castro dies, and the capitalists sweep in and turn the island into the Las Vegas of the Carribean. christ I hate plastic..... Em -------- "I don't care if it rains of freezes 'Long as I got my Plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car. Through my trials and tribulations And my travels through the nations With my Plastic Jesus I'll go far. Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus, Riding on the dashboard of my car I'm afraid He'll have to go. His magnets ruin my radio And if I have a wreck He'll leave a scar. Riding down a thoroughfare With His nose up in the air, A wreck may be ahead, but He don't mind. Trouble coming He don't see, He just keeps His eye on me And any other thing that lies behind. Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus, Riding on the dashboard of my car ... Though the sunshine on His back Make Him peel, chip and crack, A little patching keeps Him up to par. When I'm in a traffic jam He don't care if I say "damn" I can let all my curses roll Plastic Jesus doesn't hear 'Cause he has a plastic ear The man who invented plastic saved my soul. Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus, Riding on the dashboard of my car ... Once His robe was snowy white, Now it isn't quite so bright - Stained by the smoke of my cigar. If I weave around at night, And policemen think I'm tight, They never find my bottle - though they ask. Plastic Jesus shelters me, For His head comes off, you see He's hollow, and I use Him for a flask. Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus, Riding on the dashboard of my car ... Ride with me and have a dram Of the blood of the Lamb - Plastic Jesus is a holy bar. [Plastic Jesus has become quite entrenched in the folk tradition, so there are considerably more folk verses than there were original ones. Following are folk additions and emendations, as well as additions from recording artists who have covered this song.] Well, I don't care if it rains or freezes, Long as I have my plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car I could go a hundred miles an hour Long as I got the Almighty Power Glued up there with my pair of fuzzy dice {Refrain - repeat between every verse} Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car Through all trials and tribulations, We will travel every nation, With my plastic Jesus I'll go far. I don't care if it rains or freezes As long as I've got my Plastic Jesus Glued to the dashboard of my car, You can buy Him phosphorescent Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant, Take Him with you when you're travelling far I don't care if it's dark or scary Long as I have magnetic Mary Ridin' on the dashboard of my car I feel I'm protected amply I've got the whole damn Holy Family Riding on the dashboard of my car You can buy a Sweet Madonna Dressed in rhinestones sitting on a Pedestal of abalone shell Goin' ninety, I'm not wary 'Cause I've got my Virgin Mary Guaranteeing I won't go to Hell I don't care what they say, I'm gonna Keep on prayin' to that pink madonna Melted to the dashboard of my car. I don't care if it bumps or jostles Long as I got the Twelve Apostles Bolted to the dashboard of my car Don't I have a pious mess Such a crowd of holiness Strung across the dashboard of my car No, I don't care if it rains or freezes Long as I have my plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car But I think he'll have to go His magnet ruins my radio And if we have a wreck he'll leave a scar Riding through the thoroughfare With his nose up in the air A wreck may be ahead, but he don't mind Trouble coming, he don't see He just keeps his eyes on me And any other thing that lies behind {as refrain} Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car Though the sun shines on his back Makes him peel, chip, and crack A little patching keeps him up to par When pedestrians try to cross I let them know who's boss I never blow my horn or give them warning I ride all over town Trying to run them down And it's seldom that they live to see the morning {as refrain} Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car His halo fits just right And I use it as a sight And they'll scatter or they'll splatter near and far When I'm in a traffic jam He don't care if I say Damn I can let all sorts of curses roll Plastic Jesus doesn't hear For he has a plastic ear The man who invented plastic saved my soul {as refrain} Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car Once his robe was snowy white Now it isn't quite so bright Stained by the smoke of my cigar God made Christ a Holy Jew God made Him a Christian too Paradoxes populate my car Joseph beams with a feigned elan From the shaggy dash of my furlined van Famous cuckold in the master plan Naughty Mary, smug and smiling Jesus dainty and beguiling Knee-deep in the piling of my van His message clear by night or day My phosphorescent plastic Gay Simpering from the dashboard of my van You can buy Him phosphorescent Glows in the dark, He's Pink and Pleasant, Take Him with you when you're travelling far. You can buy a Sweet Madonna Dressed in rhinestones sitting on a Pedestal of abalone shell. Goin' ninety, I'm not wary' Cause I've got my Virgin Mary, Guaranteeing I won't go to Hell. Rain and Snow are not an issue long as I got my plastic Vishnu Sittin on the dashboard of my car When I'm goin' fornicatin I got my ceramic Satan Sinnin' on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home The women know I'm on the level Thanks to the wild-eyed stoneware devil Ridin' on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home Sneerin' from the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home Leering from the dashboard of my van I don't care if I'm broke or starvin' As long as I've got a fish named Darwin Glued to the trunklid of my car God, I'm feeling so evolved Drivin' with my problems solved Proclaiming what I think of what we are Riding home one foggy night, With my honey cuddled tight, I missed a curve and off the road we veered. My windshield got smashed-up good, And my darling graced the hood. Plastic Jesus, He had disappeared. {As refrain} Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus, No longer chides me with His holy grin. Doctors in the X-ray room Found Him in my darling's womb. Someday, He'll be born again! I don't care if it rains or freezes Long as I got my plastic Jesus Riding on the dashboard of my car He's the dude with the rusty nails, Walks on water, don't need no sails Riding on the dashboard of me car I don't care if the night is scary As long as I got the Virgin Mary Sittin' on the dashboard of my car. She don't slip and she don't slide Cuz her ass is magnetized Sittin' on the dashboard of my car." ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #291 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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