From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #289 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 29 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 289 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Vuelo 605 ["mike pritchard" ] USE njc [colin ] Re: JMDL CD Trees Info Help.... [Lance Michel ] Re: Joni and Bob/njc just thanks ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: done with politics and moore - njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] good for all ["Marianne Rizzo" ] anti american, njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] RE: anti american, njc ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Joni guitar and rapping ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: done with politics and moore - njc [Lori Fye ] Re: More on Moore - njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: More on Moore - njc [dsk ] Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc [dsk ] The Beginning of Survival ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! ["amelio747" ] Re: More on Moore - njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: anti american, njc ["anon anon" ] Re: anti american, njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Vuelo 605 NJC really [Emiliano ] RE: anti american, njc ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: anti american, njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: fact on film? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] safer world? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: anti american, njc [Ken ] Re: anti american, njc ["anon anon" ] Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: safer world? njc [vince ] Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! [frasere@intergate.ca] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:55:51 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Vuelo 605 Vuelo 605 There is a letter in today's El Pais about the ending, after more than 40 years, of a radio show called Vuelo 605 (Flight 605). The presenter, Angel Alvarez (accents omitted) is now 85 and has presented the show since the 1960s. The reader pays tribute to the show and its presenter for introducing him to many types of music over the years. I quote, in a free translation: "I first heard Angel Alvarez's Vuelo 605 in the spring of 1964. I was 15. It changed many things in my life, among others, to appreciate all types of music, starting with folk music and ending up with jazz. I discovered Dylan, Simon and Garfunkel, Johnny Cash. Joni Mitchell... Billie Holliday and Miles Davis. It dragged me from the grey life of Madrid to Nashville, San Francisco, Detroit, New Orleans and Liverpool where the world's best music came from. And there were many thousands more like me." Maybe Emiliano can add something about this show, which I confess I have never heard. mike in barcelona NP Lloyd Cole - The Collection ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:59:53 +0100 From: colin Subject: USE njc there is a lot of hoo ha here and in other Euro countries right now that belong to the EU(now 25 countries), concerning a referendum on the EU Constitution. Many fear this is going to mean a United States of Europe. My own feeling is that would be a good thing. Thye world needs a balance of power which it does not have right now. A United States of Europe would hold the USA in check. I admit to not understanding the nationlistic feeling expressed by many. I was an amry brat, lived all over for the first 17 years of my life. Don't feel anywhere is home, don't feel anywhere is superior to anywhere else and don't feel threatened by the idea of a USE. My idenity is not bound up with my nation.Menaing, I would still be me regardless of where i lived, the currency I used or language I spoke. It probably won't happen for a long time, but I think eventually the USE will be and then we may see a different, more peaceful world where one super state will not be able to lord it over the rest of us. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:07:25 +0000 From: Lance Michel Subject: Re: JMDL CD Trees Info Help.... Howdy Folks, Hope all are doing well and having a wonderful Summer...I was wondering; does anyone know of a link to the info for the various CD Trees this list has run....I need to pass along my info to a friend who I have dubbed these for, and I cannot find my ol' info files...Thanks in advance.... Again, hope all are well... Ta... Peas...Sir Lance Nabalom I. Vitari: - -There are as many shades to reality as there are windows unto the soul- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:47:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob/njc just thanks >Seen any tired horses in the sun out there in California lately Kate? Wink.< Hi laura, as a matter of fact I have seen some of those lately but today its in the clouds... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:58:04 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc Lori writes: << light up a smoke >> Bad advice, Lori -- if you're talking about tobacco products, anyway. - --Smurf, the reformed cigarette smoker on a mission from God "Life is full of misery, loneliness, and suffering -- and it's all over much too soon." - --Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:36:16 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: good for all A "good for all" public service announcement: Let your computers sleep. I heard a news report on NPR last week about the importance of letting your computers sleep when not in use. Apparently, computers use a good amount of energy, unless they are sleeping. Some people leave their computers on all day. . . and this is supposedly fine if you program it to sleep when not in use. Most computers now have the sleep function but not everybody has taken the time to set their computer to it. They said something like in a large corporation such as General Electric ( I think it was) by putting all their computers on sleep mode they were able to save about 7 million per year. . . . that the emissions from the energy used from running all of our computers is equivalent to the emissions of several million cars. . . This, I never knew. All this time I thought computers were really a good move in the right direction as far as energy conservation was concerned. . and they probably are, as long as you choose the sleep function. Pass this on and we can save energy around the world. . the government isn't leading. . .so the people must lead. If you find more information about this, pass it along to us. ~ a "good for all" announcement. (more encouragements such as these are most welcomed.) stardust golden Marianne _________________________________________________________________ From will you? to I do, MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting Married. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:15:33 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: anti american, njc >I have seen more to lead me to believe that Michael Moore is anti-american, >anti-capitalism and blatantly dishonest than I have to support his claims. You can call me "anti american" if our present administration encapsulates what "American" means. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:28:13 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: anti american, njc > You can call me "anti american" if our present administration encapsulates > what "American" means. > > Marianne You can call me Al... Victor Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:07:43 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: Joni guitar and rapping Hey Anita, I'm late on responses, but love your stories here! I was watching the Shadows and Light DVD recently for the first time and the guitar Joni played in that looked a lot like your Blonde to me. Do we know if it could have been the same one? Thanks for sharing these and take care, love db >>> Anita Gabrielle Tedder 6/28/2004 7:55:00 AM >>> Someone off list suggested I share a couple of recent Joni related events to befall me recently - so I will. At the end of February, I had the good fortune to see rising English singer/songwriter Amy Wadge play a local venue. I thought she was a really gutsy tune smith(was described in local promo stuff as the new Joni Mitchell, but she's nothing like Joni but different and good nonetheless). I was somewhat the worse for wear for beer that night and, whilst purchasing her cd, muttered in an unfortunately slurred voice that 'If I were years younger I'd follow your tour like I did Joni Mitchell in '83.' Amy said how much she loved Joni - which was rather daft on her behalf because I came fully into contact with my Jonivangelist and began to blurt out endless tales of Joni Fest (if you haven't been - go. It'll change your life) and our purchase of the blonde guitar. Owning Joni's guitar elevated me instantly to celebrity status and I promised that I'd bring it along for Amy to play sometime. From there, Amy and I kept in touch and we seem to get along quite well. A couple of weeks ago, Amy played on a Bob Harris Presents night (he of the old UK show 'Old Grey Whistle Test') at Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine's venue The Stables. Amy topped the bill and, at the end of the night, we sat in the foyer playing Coyote and Hejira. Her bass player and producer, one Dave Bronze, says that Hejira is his all time favourite album and both Amy and Dave posed for photos with the guitar. Anyway, to top it all, Amy had secured the support slot (from over 250 artists) that very day for the UK tour with Jeff Beck and is currently playing all over the UK with said top guitarist. Last week the tour reached the Albert Hall in London and was sold out for both nights. What's really nice was that Amy got Steph and I a couple of complimentary tickets and even dedicated a tune to us! Anyway, it's nice to know that more big Joni devotees are currently out on tour and if they're coming your way go and see them! This only goes to show the old adage 'Have Joni guitar - will travel and get freebies!' My other news is that I have been doing quite a bit of session work recently and, as some know, been working with a rapper. I am frankly astonished at a lot of his writing and performing and thought that I must get him some Joni lyrics to peruse. He is blown away by Joni. 'Man, that Hejira is DEEP' were his exact words. Yup - quite right! Love Anita xx This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:22:08 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc I wrote: << light up a smoke >> Smurf replied: > Bad advice, Lori -- if you're talking about tobacco products, anyway. I wasn't. >; ~ Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:07:33 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc Lori wrote: << light up a smoke >> I answered: << Bad advice, Lori -- if you're talking about tobacco products, anyway. >> Lori replied: << I wasn't. >; ~ >> My answer to that: Good advice, Lori! XO, - --Smurfadelic "Life is full of misery, lonliness, and suffering -- and it's all over much too soon." - --Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:01:48 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: More on Moore - njc Another conservative take on Farenheit 9/11...I find Mr. Hewitt's comparison between Moore and David Duke interesting. I suspect the great majority of us who post political views to this group will NOT be amused. Best Regards, bp >From http://hughhewitt.com/ Michael Medved advised me this morning that I could not possibly grasp how lousy a film is Fahrenheit 9/11 unless I had seen it. So I went today, and Michael was right. The movie gives propagandists a bad name. At least it could have been well-made anti-American tripe. Instead it is a crudely made and insufferably dull march through the fever swamps of the unhinged left. It is pulling in big bucks, which is a testament to the disposable income of the swamp residents, but put me down as one in favor of even broader distribution and bigger box offices for the picture. It is an anchor around John Kerry's neck as ordinary Americans not filled with self-loathing will despise Moore for his transparent lies and not trust a political party that does not reject them. I am more certain than I was last week that attending the premier and the standing ovation that followed it was a mistake for Tom Daschle. The folks in South Dakota should hear repeatedly of Daschle's sympathy for Moore's project and point-of-view. The John Kerry-Michael Moore Democrats do in fact represent a low point for that party, and unless and until the Kerrys and Daschles denounce the fraud for what he is, they are stuck with him Some on the left are proclaiming Moore to be their Limbaugh. He's not. Moore is the Democrats' David Duke, but they are putting their arm around him. I will not reprise the now well-known deceptions abundant in the movie. The best romp through that territory is Christopher Hitchens'. But I will note the one undeniable benefit of the movie's success. It provides a handy reference to the intelligence of the person who sees it. If you encounter anyone speaking in tones even remotely approaching respect for the movie, you have proof positive that the speaker is a fool, not to be trusted on any point, for he or she has given testimony as to their ignorance of basic facts and of an inability to detect even elephant-sized inconsistencies in argument and story line. Michael Moore is the latest in a long line of entrepreneurs who have proven P.T. Barnum to have been on the money when it came to the number of suckers abroad in our land. Sure he's a Jabba-sized oaf, but give him his due. He knew how to play the left's paranoia like a fiddle, and he did. UPDATE: Moore defenders demand examples of Moore's deceptions. Easiest part of the Michael Moore paranoid fantasy to explode: That President Bush arranged for the bin Laden family to flee the U.S. after 9/11. See this story from The Hill. Richard Clarke --hero to Moore's movie in other parts-- let the bin Ladens go. It never got to Bush. Moore didn't have time to put that in the movie. UPDATE: A helpful thread at FreeRepublic collects Michael Moore-realted editorial cartoons. UPDATE: Roger L. Simon relates a telling anecdote about Michael Moore and Hezbollah's endorsement of his film. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:20:57 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: More on Moore - njc > UPDATE: A helpful thread at FreeRepublic collects Michael Moore-realted > editorial cartoons. Part of my previous post...but the link didn't come through. Here it is for your viewing pleasure. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1162011/posts These cartoons are quite good, but it's a POV Thang, obviously! Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:19:51 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: More on Moore - njc Norman Pennington wrote: > > Another conservative take on Farenheit 9/11...I find Mr. Hewitt's comparison > between Moore and David Duke interesting. I suspect the great majority of > us who post political views to this group will NOT be amused. Not amused, but not concerned either. This guy hasn't seen the movie even though he says he did. It's not specific enough. This is nothing but a rant full of insults and sneers and generalizations, which is typically the way conservatives "argue" these days. I am loving the way conservatives are in such a tizzy about this movie. > >From http://hughhewitt.com/ > > >I will not reprise the now well-known deceptions abundant in the movie. I wonder why? Because he hasn't seen the movie himself? Why think for yourself when you can just regurgitate other people's garbage? And some people think Moore fans all think alike??! Go figure. > UPDATE: Moore defenders demand examples of Moore's deceptions. Easiest > part of the Michael Moore paranoid fantasy to explode: That President Bush > arranged for the bin Laden family to flee the U.S. after 9/11. See this > story from The Hill. Richard Clarke --hero to Moore's movie in other > parts-- let the bin Ladens go. It never got to Bush. Moore didn't have time > to put that in the movie. Not much gets to Bush, apparently. He's still responsible for what his administration does. The St. Petersburg Times published a very interesting story on June 9, 2004 about a flight out of Tampa on September 13, 2001. What makes it most interesting to me is that the Bush administration denied it ever happened and it's only come out into the open because of the 9/11 commission's investigation. If everything was on the up and up, why deny that flight took place? If the Bushies weren't so secretive, people like Michael Moore wouldn't be wondering so much about what their true motives are. Debra Shea in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:47:05 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc Brian Gross wrote: > > Firearms distributed in this manner are not "gifts" but are in fact payment in > lieu of interest on the investment made. A bank customer purchasing one of > these firearms must meet the same Federal, State and Local requirements as The > Sports Authority or Dick's Sporting Goods customer must meet prior to receiving > the weapon. That includes Federal and possibly State background checks at a > minimum. > Again, these weapons ARE NOT GIFTS. 1099-INT are distributed at year-end for > the full retail value of the firearm and the bank must also be licensed as a > Federal Firearms Dealer. Thanks for the details, Brian. I didn't know all that. Banks used to give away toasters and $25 certificates, and the value of those things also had to be included on one's tax returns. Discussion about details might distract some people from the bigger picture, but I still find it odd that a bank would use guns to entice people to open accounts. (If people could get a gun from the bank WITHOUT opening an account there, well, that's strange, too.) The message given is that guns are good. Plenty of people agree with that idea and plenty of people (myself included) do not. We could talk details all day and still not agree on that basic idea. So, in this case, I think an agree to disagree conclusion makes the most sense. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:56:34 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: The Beginning of Survival amelio747 (Stephen T) said, >what does everyone think of the track-listing for "The Beginning Of Survival (please tell me there is an abbreviation for that!)???> Now Jim: Could we agree to abbreviate it "BS"? For example, people who enjoy the new compilation would post something like this: "Joni says the industry is a cesspool but it isn't true. The proof that the industry has integrity is right here in BS." Or... "You guys were wrong about BS. I've been playing it for days. I highly recommend her BS collection. For new people who want to find out what Joni's all about, introduce them to her BS." Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY, US It doesn't seem to "scan" well... :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:03:18 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! >Passion Play (now with a bonus subtitle!). Ooh I'm sold! ;) > TBOS...it has not been warmly received for the most part, Stephen. First & > foremost because it's a product without an audience. Joni fans already have this > stuff, and non-Joni fans won't care. It's like the proverbial tree in the > forest - does it make a noise if no one is listening? Good point Bob, but could it really sell more badly than TLOG? Ouch! Yeah I am kinda' disappointed with all the regurgitation too but I still give her credit for not cashing in so early on. I really do think this is all a platform for her art and opinion though, I mean how many other people waited 28 years for a best of album!! NP: Blood Roses - Tori * * * * * * Stephen - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:16 AM Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! > **Not been on the list for a while coz I wasn't feeling too good. Hopefully > I've not been totally forgotten ;) > > Not at all, Stephen...matter of fact I made mention of you last month, > thanking you for your > contribution to the covers project (the Madeline Milla stuff) and wondering > where you had gotten to. (Go look up the digest if you think I'm pulling your > lariat or if you just want to see it). Anyway, sorry you were sick and damn > glad to see you back! > > > **but what does everyone think of > the track-listing for "The Beginning Of Survival (please tell me there is an > abbreviation for that!)??? > > TBOS...it has not been warmly received for the most part, Stephen. First & > foremost because it's a product without an audience. Joni fans already have this > stuff, and non-Joni fans won't care. It's like the proverbial tree in the > forest - does it make a noise if no one is listening? > > Which is not to say that it's all bad; who could argue with great songs like > "Magdalene Laundries, Slouching, Beat Of Black Wings & Passion Play (now with > a bonus subtitle!). Then you've got the songs that aren't bad songs but suffer > from the dated production and superfluous studio gimmickry (Impossible > Dreamer, Dog Eat Dog,) but unfortunately the bulk of it is a recap (recrap) of > Joni's worstest stuff ever: Reoccurring Dream, No Apologies, The Windfall, Fiction, > and so on. For the life of me I can't figure out why this thing exists, > especially when all the Geffen stuff just got re-released last year. At least > Dancing Clown got left out. > > The Beginning of Survival? What a pretentious title. The Beginning of > Retirement, perhaps. Or maybe "Yard Sale". Or maybe "I Guess Dylan Really IS Better" > LOL > > For someone who didn't want to paint a starry night again, man, she's been on > quite a nostalgia binge of late. But then again I guess that recycling is > consistent with her social and political content in regards to this collection. > > The track list, > > "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" > "The Beat of Black Wings" > "The Reoccuring Dream" > "Impossible Dreamer" > "The Windfall (Everything for Nothing)" > "No Apologies" > "Dog Eat Dog" > "Passion Play (The Story of Jesus and Zachius ... The Little Tax Collector)" > "The Three Great Stimulants" > "Cool Water" > "Lakota" > "Sex Kills" > "Fiction" > "Tax Free" > "The Magdalene Laundries" > "Ethiopia" > > Bob, swearing not to write about TBOS anymore...again. > > NP: Andy Partridge "Strawberry Fields Forever" (Dave Gregory actually) > > PS: I'm not sure why the new subtitle for Passion Play - maybe because not > enough people knew the Bible story? And I hope they get Zaccheus' name right on > the official product. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:30:49 EDT From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2004 Hi Everyone! Hope you are all enjoying the summer so far. Of course, if you are not signed up for Jonifest 2004, I don't know how you could possibly *completely* enjoy the summer! ;-) Just to let you all know, I am releasing the rooms that are not taken so far for Jonifest back to Full Moon today to sell if they can. I think it is only fair considering the circumstances. If you are still planning on coming and have not gotten your money in, please let Donna or myself know RIGHT AWAY so I can hold a bed for you. It's SUCH a great weekend. Don't you deserve a little Joni time with your JMDL buds? Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:33:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: speaking of dylan & F9/11 http://movies2.nytimes.com/rnr/movies/rnr_read.html?fid=.f5d2e71 &showtimes=1&trailer=1&sort=helpful While I and my fellow Canadians go to the polls tomorrow to elect a new federal government (with the frightening prospect of right-wing Conservative party forming a minority government), I was impressed with the number of my fellow citizens who packed a Super-Size-Me theatre in the Vancouver suburb of Coquitlam. And, as I'm sure is happening in theatres throughout the United States, the audience cried openly at the grief of Lila Lipscomb and the innocent Iraqi citizens whose lives have been shattered beyond repair. And, at the closing credits, we broke into enthusiastic applause. While the singer/songwriter of the 60's was writing their protest song on an American campus, it will be the film students of this generation who chart the political discourse of the second half of this decade. Michael Moore, whatever your leaning, just may be their Bob Dylan. This movie was astonishing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: More on Moore - njc I'd be interested in reading a conservative take on Moore's movie in which the writer wasn't quite so overcome with distaste for Moore and 'the Left'. If anyone comes across one, send it my way, pretty please. I'm not suprised he thought the Hitchens article was top notch as his attempt at dismantling Moore's movie was marred by his own Moore-loathing and distaste for the Left. It weakens the message, in my opinion, much in the same way Moore often weakens his own message when his arguments are accompanied by pot shots and ridicule (though he does make me laugh). From Buck's post:> UPDATE: Moore defenders demand examples of Moore's deceptions. Easiest> part of the Michael Moore paranoid fantasy to explode: That President Bush> arranged for the bin Laden family to flee the U.S. after 9/11. See this > story from The Hill. Richard Clarke --hero to Moore's movie in other > parts-- let the bin Ladens go. It never got to Bush. Moore didn't have time > to put that in the movie. I wouldn't say this is deception on Moore's part. The Hill interviewed Clarke on May 25. I don't know if a few weeks is enough time to update a film - I guess it could be in our digital world these days. At any rate Clarke's original testimony to the commission was less than clear on this matter. I could have sworn I remembered him saying he didn't authorize the flights, so I looked up the transcript. He said he did not approve the request, but passed it to the FBI. They approved it and then it was run through the Interagency Crisis Management Group decision process. Clarke said he couldnt remember where the request originated, but it was either the State Department or White House Chief of Staff office. He also said he didnt think any of the Saudis were interviewed in this country and that the flight embargo was still in effect when the flight left, two items I think that have since been clarified in the Commission report, so I hear. dsk wrote: Norman Pennington wrote: > > Another conservative take on Farenheit 9/11...I find Mr. Hewitt's comparison > between Moore and David Duke interesting. I suspect the great majority of > us who post political views to this group will NOT be amused. Not amused, but not concerned either. This guy hasn't seen the movie even though he says he did. It's not specific enough. This is nothing but a rant full of insults and sneers and generalizations, which is typically the way conservatives "argue" these days. I am loving the way conservatives are in such a tizzy about this movie. > >From http://hughhewitt.com/ > > >I will not reprise the now well-known deceptions abundant in the movie. I wonder why? Because he hasn't seen the movie himself? Why think for yourself when you can just regurgitate other people's garbage? And some people think Moore fans all think alike??! Go figure. > UPDATE: Moore defenders demand examples of Moore's deceptions. Easiest > part of the Michael Moore paranoid fantasy to explode: That President Bush > arranged for the bin Laden family to flee the U.S. after 9/11. See this > story from The Hill. Richard Clarke --hero to Moore's movie in other > parts-- let the bin Ladens go. It never got to Bush. Moore didn't have time > to put that in the movie. Not much gets to Bush, apparently. He's still responsible for what his administration does. The St. Petersburg Times published a very interesting story on June 9, 2004 about a flight out of Tampa on September 13, 2001. What makes it most interesting to me is that the Bush administration denied it ever happened and it's only come out into the open because of the 9/11 commission's investigation. If everything was on the up and up, why deny that flight took place? If the Bushies weren't so secretive, people like Michael Moore wouldn't be wondering so much about what their true motives are. Debra Shea in NYC dsk wrote:Norman Pennington wrote: > > Another conservative take on Farenheit 9/11...I find Mr. Hewitt's comparison > between Moore and David Duke interesting. I suspect the great majority of > us who post political views to this group will NOT be amused. Not amused, but not concerned either. This guy hasn't seen the movie even though he says he did. It's not specific enough. This is nothing but a rant full of insults and sneers and generalizations, which is typically the way conservatives "argue" these days. I am loving the way conservatives are in such a tizzy about this movie. > >From http://hughhewitt.com/ > > >I will not reprise the now well-known deceptions abundant in the movie. I wonder why? Because he hasn't seen the movie himself? Why think for yourself when you can just regurgitate other people's garbage? And some people think Moore fans all think alike??! Go figure. > UPDATE: Moore defenders demand examples of Moore's deceptions. Easiest > part of the Michael Moore paranoid fantasy to explode: That President Bush > arranged for the bin Laden family to flee the U.S. after 9/11. See this > story from The Hill. Richard Clarke --hero to Moore's movie in other > parts-- let the bin Ladens go. It never got to Bush. Moore didn't have time > to put that in the movie. Not much gets to Bush, apparently. He's still responsible for what his administration does. The St. Petersburg Times published a very interesting story on June 9, 2004 about a flight out of Tampa on September 13, 2001. What makes it most interesting to me is that the Bush administration denied it ever happened and it's only come out into the open because of the 9/11 commission's investigation. If everything was on the up and up, why deny that flight took place? If the Bushies weren't so secretive, people like Michael Moore wouldn't be wondering so much about what their true motives are. Debra Shea in NYC Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:05:01 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: anti american, njc First of all,what on earth does "anti American" mean?second,What is wrong with being anti capitalist? >From: "Marianne Rizzo" >Reply-To: "Marianne Rizzo" >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: anti american, njc >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:15:33 -0400 > >>I have seen more to lead me to believe that Michael Moore is >>anti-american, anti-capitalism and blatantly dishonest than I have to >>support his claims. > > >You can call me "anti american" if our present administration encapsulates >what "American" means. > >Marianne > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  FREE >download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:47:27 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: anti american, njc anon anon asked (and I assume this wasn't a rhetorical question): > First of all,what on earth does "anti American" mean?second,What is wrong > with being anti capitalist? > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-americanism, briefly quoted here: Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is strong disapproval for the government, culture, history, and/or people of the United States of America. In extreme forms it may be accompanied by undertones of chauvinism, nationalism, or jingoism. It has also been cited as a cause of modern terrorism leveled against the United States and American citizens. While the term implies an ideological tendency and racism (cf. anti-semitism), critics denounce the term as attempt by Americans to defame and downplay legitimate criticism, particularly in regards to US foreign policy. In the context of Wes' post...I'm assuming he refers to M. Moore's strong disapproval for our government and foreign policy, although Moore DOES take the culture to the woodshed repeatedly and most often hyperbolicly. From a conservative's POV, the more extreme voices on the Left (Moore's included) are guilty of indulging in anti-Americanism. This tendancy of the Left to disparage America is particularly galling to those of us who believe (strongly, even) the US is perhaps the most idealistic and benevolent culture in history. There's nothing wrong with being anti-capitalist, unless one asks "what are the alternatives to capitalism?" If the answers/alternatives are socialism, communism, or any other system that stifles individual initiative, responsibility, and opportunity, then I submit there's a LOT wrong with being anti-capitalist. Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:09:15 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: Vuelo 605 NJC really Hi, Mike! Yes, I've heard this very good program occasionally. It was very classy: great music, relaxed intros (you know what I mean, instead of those that seems to put the more words in less possible time...). I didn't heard it often 'cause it was mainly broadcasted at 8:00 PM (before dinner time here) or even later, and I not hear much radio at these hours of the day. Angel Alvarez was, professionally, a pilot plane. I guess it allowed him to adquire a point of view and an access to interesting music very very much broader than it was possible for any spaniard in the years prior to 1975 (when FF died etc). I do not remember his program from these years, but from the ones when he already was considered as a true standard. Well, that's just my recollection of this: I do not remember hearing our SIQUOMB in his program, but always very good music, never the songs that were "in the last wave or in vogue", a voice truly enjoyable... 85 years! Wow! Some months ago, in my car, he sounded still very fine!!! (that's just another of the marvelous things good music will do for you, dear people) Love & Peace! and... Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano, very briefly delurking NP: Bill Keith & Jim Collier, "Beating Around The Bush" (watch out for the horrid snakes!) mike says: > Vuelo 605 > There is a letter in today's El Pais about the ending, after more than 40 > years, of a radio show called Vuelo 605 (Flight 605). The presenter, Angel > Alvarez (accents omitted) is now 85 and has presented the show since the > 1960s. The reader pays tribute to the show and its presenter for introducing > him to many types of music over the years. I quote, in a free translation: "I > first heard Angel Alvarez's Vuelo 605 in the spring of 1964. I was 15. It > changed many things in my life, among others, to appreciate all types of > music, starting with folk music and ending up with jazz. I discovered Dylan, > Simon and Garfunkel, Johnny Cash. Joni Mitchell... Billie Holliday and Miles > Davis. It dragged me from the grey life of Madrid to Nashville, San Francisco, > Detroit, New Orleans and Liverpool where the world's best music came from. And > there were many thousands more like me." > Maybe Emiliano can add something about this show, which I confess I have never > heard. > mike in barcelona > NP Lloyd Cole - The Collection ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:08:21 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: anti american, njc One person's anti- Americanism is another's patriotism, Norm. What's anti-American is a McCartheyesque condemnation of dissent. Nothing personal, of course. Having seen F 9/11 this weekend, I'd say it's remarkably free of previous Moore hyperbole. I'm an American and patriot, & I'm heartened to see that our Supreme Court (with 7 Republican apontees and 2 Democratic appointees) thinks more highly of our civil liberties than the Bush administration. Charges of "anti-Americanism" against those of us left of center is itself anti-American, I would assert, since presumably we live in a nation with a Constitution and a Bill of Rights that protects political speech. Cheers, Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Norman Pennington Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:47 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: anti american, njc anon anon asked (and I assume this wasn't a rhetorical question): > First of all,what on earth does "anti American" mean?second,What is wrong > with being anti capitalist? > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-americanism, briefly quoted here: Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is strong disapproval for the government, culture, history, and/or people of the United States of America. In extreme forms it may be accompanied by undertones of chauvinism, nationalism, or jingoism. It has also been cited as a cause of modern terrorism leveled against the United States and American citizens. While the term implies an ideological tendency and racism (cf. anti-semitism), critics denounce the term as attempt by Americans to defame and downplay legitimate criticism, particularly in regards to US foreign policy. In the context of Wes' post...I'm assuming he refers to M. Moore's strong disapproval for our government and foreign policy, although Moore DOES take the culture to the woodshed repeatedly and most often hyperbolicly. From a conservative's POV, the more extreme voices on the Left (Moore's included) are guilty of indulging in anti-Americanism. This tendancy of the Left to disparage America is particularly galling to those of us who believe (strongly, even) the US is perhaps the most idealistic and benevolent culture in history. There's nothing wrong with being anti-capitalist, unless one asks "what are the alternatives to capitalism?" If the answers/alternatives are socialism, communism, or any other system that stifles individual initiative, responsibility, and opportunity, then I submit there's a LOT wrong with being anti-capitalist. Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:38:57 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: anti american, njc **This tendancy of the Left to disparage America Buck, don't you think that this mindset is the result of Bush's "either you're for us or you're for the terrorists" comments? I mean, he has led a lot of people to believe that he stands for God, America and all that and anyone who disagrees is "disparaging America". I'm a member of 'the Left' I suppose, and I love the values that our country stands for which is WHY I'm so opposed to what this administration is doing. I feel like I have to apologize sometimes for being a part of how our country is viewed in the world today, while at the same time I'm proud to sing our National Anthem at a Greenville Braves game. OF COURSE I'm not for the Saudi terrorists, but I'm certainly not for the terrorist mentality of our own culture either. I know I harp about Ani, but here's a recent lyric: "i love my country by which i mean i am indebted joyfully to all the people throughout its history who have fought the government to make right where so many cunning sons and daughters our foremothers and forefathers came singing through slaughter came through hell and high water so that we could stand here and behold breathlessly the sight how a raging river of tears cut a grand canyon of light" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:02:35 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: fact on film? njc >I think it depends on one's definition of "lie" or one's perception of "fact." < this sounds like something Clinton would say! :~} granted there are many grey areas in life but are we really living in that confused a culture where we can't discern lies from truth & fact from fiction? It's a rhetorical question I guess... At any rate anyone who has not seen this film yet has no idea of its impact... reading words on a page from me or anyone else will not get you even close to what you will get from experiencing the film... to quote a much beloved jmdl phrase it is like dancing about architecture... you may hate moore but unless your heart has stopped beating I cannot imagine anyone not being moved by this film... much of it has nothing to do with partisan politics... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:14:20 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: safer world? njc > Maybe because of Bush's strong stance on terrorism we haven't had a repeat of 9/11. And who can disagree that the world is safer with Saddam Hussein out of power?< >Terror attacks increased in 2003 April report incorrect, State Dept. admits Monday, June 14, 2004 Posted: 11:12 AM EDT (1512 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- The State Department acknowledged Thursday it was wrong in reporting terrorism declined worldwide last year, a finding used to boost one of President Bush's chief foreign policy claims -- success in countering terror.< http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/10/powell.terror.report.ap/index.html [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:23:39 -0400 From: Ken Subject: Re: anti american, njc anon anon wrote: > First of all,what on earth does "anti American" mean?second,What is > wrong with being anti capitalist? > Well it's umm.. anti American. Saw a program on the history of the board game Monopoly. The precursor of the game (The Landlord's Game) was written as an anti capitalist lesson on how you lose everything to the rich when you try and compete in a capitalist system - Labeling capitalism akin too a pyramid scheme. The irony of course is that Parker Brothers bought the patent rights to this and any other earlier versions of the game making them selves the monopolistic owners of the game They made millions upon millions of dollars and then sued anyone who made anything close to Monopoly. More here: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa121997.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:26:37 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Re: anti american, njc >From: "Norman Pennington" >Reply-To: "Norman Pennington" >To: >Subject: Re: anti american, njc >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:47:27 -0600 > >anon anon asked (and I assume this wasn't a rhetorical question): > > > > First of all,what on earth does "anti American" mean?second,What is >wrong > > with being anti capitalist? > > >See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-americanism, briefly quoted here: > >Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is strong disapproval for the >government, culture, history, and/or people of the United States of >America. > >In extreme forms it may be accompanied by undertones of chauvinism, >nationalism, or jingoism. It has also been cited as a cause of modern >terrorism leveled against the United States and American citizens. While >the >term implies an ideological tendency and racism (cf. anti-semitism), >critics >denounce the term as attempt by Americans to defame and downplay legitimate >criticism, particularly in regards to US foreign policy. > Yes,I agree with the critics... >In the context of Wes' post...I'm assuming he refers to M. Moore's strong >disapproval for our government and foreign policy, although Moore DOES take >the culture to the woodshed repeatedly and most often hyperbolicly. From a >conservative's POV, the more extreme voices on the Left (Moore's included) >are guilty of indulging in anti-Americanism. This tendancy of the Left to >disparage America is particularly galling to those of us who believe >(strongly, even) the US is perhaps the most idealistic and benevolent >culture in history. > This I completly disagree with...It is extremly important to strongly critisize this dispicable Bush administration.IMO,as long as we want to remain free,we should respect and promote people's ability to speak out.otherwise we may as well live in a dictatorship.Yes,I feel lucky in some ways to live in the U.S.-but ultimatly I'm a citizen of the Universe,no more. >There's nothing wrong with being anti-capitalist, unless one asks "what are >the alternatives to capitalism?" If the answers/alternatives are >socialism, >communism, or any other system that stifles individual initiative, >responsibility, and opportunity, then I submit there's a LOT wrong with >being anti-capitalist. Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary. > > > >Best Regards, > >bp _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups  now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:58:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! **Good point Bob, but could it really sell more badly than TLOG? Ouch! I think it will sell FAR worse than Tlog - I bought Tlog, but I have no intention of buying a collection of recordings I already have - why on earth would I? And I bet I'm not the only JMDL'er that owns Tlog but will not bother with TBOS. After all, Tlog was old songs, but at least it featured new recordings of them; at least there was an attempt (ill-advised & misguided and bloated as it was) at some creativity . TBOS offers *nothing* new except for mini-reproductions of some paintings. That will be a draw for some I suppose, but it's like buying a pack of baseball cards for the bubble gum. (although now that I think about it that's probably a stupid analogy as they don't put bubble gum in baseball card packs anymore, but they did when I was a kid and it was great because my friend Ray & I would buy stacks of baseball cards and I got all the gum because he had braces. And no, his Dad (Murray) didn't drive a Cadillac, he drove a White Buick.) Bob NPIMH: Ray's Dad's Buuuuuiiiick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:17:26 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! Golly. You hit the nail right on the head, Bob. And I love the baseball card analogy. I feel exactly what you're saying. 'Cept I could never stomach what they were sellin' as "gum." That crap always cracked like stale brittle upon the biting and fell apart in the most peculiar way once ya chawed it for awile. Yuck. You can have mine, too, dude. Lots of my friends call me "Ray, too, ya know? - -Julius > TBOS offers *nothing* new except for > mini-reproductions of some paintings. That will be a draw for some I > suppose, but it's like > buying a pack of baseball cards for the bubble gum. (although now that I > think > about it that's probably a stupid analogy as they don't put bubble gum in > baseball card packs anymore, but they did when I was a kid and it was great > because my friend Ray &I would buy stacks of baseball cards and I got all > the gum > because he had braces. And no, his Dad (Murray) didn't drive a Cadillac, he > drove a White Buick.) > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:27:24 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: safer world? njc >And who can disagree that the world is safer with Saddam Hussein >out of power? > anyone who lives in the real world and not fantasy spin land? Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:34:18 -0700 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > I think it will sell FAR worse than Tlog - I bought Tlog, but I have no > intention of buying a collection of recordings I already have - why on earth > would I? And I bet I'm not the only JMDL'er that owns Tlog but will not bother with TBOS. After all, Tlog was old songs, but at least it featured new recordings of them..... I wholeheartedly agree, Bob! I am one who happens to like Travelogue, tho it doesn't get frequent rotation in my player. I even have the Geffen 4 disc set- the sound is far superior to the original, but it gets even less play. As you, I see NO reason whatsoever to purchase the new release. Who this is being marketed to, is beyond my comprehension. I have a 19 year old niece,and over the last couple of years whenever a "gift" occasion arises I have been turning her on to Joni. To date she has received and LOVES Blue, Court and Spark, For the Roses and Miles of Aisles. There is SO much more that she would be interested in- can't even imagine her liking the upcoming release. Best, Stephen in Vancouver- coming out of lurkdom PS. Welcome back Mark E. happy to see you posting again. NP: Ron Sexsmith- Retriever ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #289 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)