From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #287 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, June 28 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 287 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: njc [Lori Fye ] Re: false on film -- njc -- pc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: false on film -- njc -- pc ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc [Brian Gross ] Re: false on film -- njc -- pc [vince ] RE: Joni and Bob ["Les Irvin" ] done with politics and moore - njc [KindTaper@aol.com] Re: false on film -- njc -- pc [Susan Guzzi ] RE: fact on film? njc ["Azeem" ] RE: Joni and Bob now NJC [Em ] Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc [Chris Marshall ] Re: done with politics and moore - njc [Brian Gross ] Re: Joni and Bob [Randy Remote ] RE: Joni and Bob now NJC [Em ] Subject: Joni and Bob, njc in this post ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: Joni and Bob now jc again/interview [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc [Randy Remote ] Re: done with politics and moore - njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Joni and Bob ["hell" ] Re: Joni and Bob [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni and Bob/njc just thanks [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: done with politics and moore - njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] Michael Moore was fact on film? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:22:10 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: njc Mark wrote: > lurk lurk.....toe in the water...is it cold? is it hot? can't > tell!.....lurk lurk...omigod! i > hope i did that njc thing right!....lurk lurk...lurklurk a-HA! So you did *hear* me afterall! I've been sending you telepathic messages recently, saying, "Mark! Come back to the JMDL!! Come back!" Glad to *see* you!! How are you?? Lori, sending another message now: "Mark! Come to Fest!!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:37:31 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: false on film -- njc -- pc Wes writes: << when I see a case of someone using deception to further their own political agenda, I have a problem with it >> Come on. Has there every been anyone on the national political scene who has used deception to further his or her own political agenda more than W himself? - --Smurf "Treat a work of art like a prince. Let it speak to you first." - --Artie Schopenhauer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:46:16 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: false on film -- njc -- pc Smurph, Is this a trick question? :-) Steve >>> 06/28/04 03:37PM >>> Wes writes: << when I see a case of someone using deception to further their own political agenda, I have a problem with it >> Come on. Has there every been anyone on the national political scene who has used deception to further his or her own political agenda more than W himself? - --Smurf "Treat a work of art like a prince. Let it speak to you first." - --Artie Schopenhauer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc - --- dsk wrote: > However, I think that's quibbling about the trees and missing the > forest. No matter what the procedure for getting the gun is, Moore was > showing that some banks in the U.S. give out guns as gifts (a fact, > yes?) and gifts are good (something most people would agree on, yes?) so > the message given by all that is "guns are good" (which is where Moore's > take on it comes in). But to get back to the initial fact, do banks in > other countries give out guns as gifts for opening accounts? Firearms distributed in this manner are not "gifts" but are in fact payment in lieu of interest on the investment made. A bank customer purchasing one of these firearms must meet the same Federal, State and Local requirements as The Sports Authority or Dick's Sporting Goods customer must meet prior to receiving the weapon. That includes Federal and possibly State background checks at a minimum. Again, these weapons ARE NOT GIFTS. 1099-INT are distributed at year-end for the full retail value of the firearm and the bank must also be licensed as a Federal Firearms Dealer. Brian np: npr npimh: Useless Desires, Patty Griffin ===== After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: fact on film? njc Kakki wrote:Sorry to the Moore fans, but not everyone thinks alike, Sorry to Kakki, but not all Michael Moore fans think everyone thinks alike. I do, as always, appreciate the links you posted. Jenny Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:03:45 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: false on film -- njc -- pc Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: >Wes writes: > ><< when I see a case of someone using deception to further their own >political agenda, I have a problem with it >> > > >Come on. Has there every been anyone on the national political scene who has >used deception to further his or her own political agenda more than W himself? > >--Smurf > The answer is: No. He tops Nixon. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:46:03 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob > I'm just trying to get some > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > poetry in popular music? First a quote from Joni from 1994 (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a light bulb went on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything now. Prior to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never went into songs." Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, single-handedly made it OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* is what all the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and consistently better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does have a larger lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by him - as opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was simply waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his songs. Not to say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as 1962. Witness... Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) I remember how I get carried away. I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. Other fellas call me up for a date, but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's so unjust, Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with dust. Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your blood it must refuse to flow, For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, Paths of victory, We shall walk. Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, Vanished from my hand, Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to meet And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say Girl, I still love you I'll always love you Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag When your baby says goodbye Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? Just my humble opinion... Les (not from London) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:49:36 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: done with politics and moore - njc Smurf wrote: <> Bill and Hilary Clinton come to mind. Truth is, it all boils down to who you believe. I don't believe a word of what Michael Moore or the liberal media says. I also don't believe everything I hear from the Bush administration or Fox News, either. I joined this list hoping to find other people to trade Joni shows with, not to try and convince other people of my views on politics. I'm going back to my original plan, and I apologize to the whole group for ever putting my two cents in when it didn't involve Joni. Wes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: false on film -- njc -- pc Wes writes: << when I see a case of someone using deception to further their own political agenda, I have a problem with it >> So then you have a huge problem with the Bush administrations smoke and mirrors act before the United Nations too I take it!??? Which BTW included some very very misleading ... NO - outright fabrications of the role Iraq played in the attacks on 911. Also I would say feigning concerns for oppressed women and defenseless children - and then bombing the shit out of them - is deceptive - noo despicable! I have not seen the film yet - although I intend to ... and yes I bet it does lean to the left a little. But thats ok we could use some balance in the media. The so called liberal press has been bound, gagged and brain-washed. Its not such an even playing field these days - a changing of the guard took place quite swiftly, not to mention being supported by the FCC and Clear Channel. Ahhh feels good to breathe some political air again here LOL! Peace, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:43:10 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: fact on film? njc Kakki writes: << I think he has a keen sense of what some believe or want to believe and he shapes his work so that by innuendo or clever editing their beliefs can be confirmed. >> I'm not sure he's exactly unique in this Kakki, are you? << He is a master propagandist, IMO. >> I had a little chuckle at this statement. What do you think he's supposed to be, an objective newsreader? He's a polemicist, and brilliant one at that. He quite patently does not claim to have no agenda. That's the whole point of what he does. I'm guessing that you haven't seen the film yet; if this is the case, then your opinions on it are worthless, as are Wes's, and as mine would be were I foolish enough to pontificate about a film I hadn't seen. Azeem in London - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.698 / Virus Database: 455 - Release Date: 02/06/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Joni and Bob now NJC Bravissimo, Les! What great points you make. :) Em - --- Les Irvin wrote: > > I'm just trying to get some > > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > > poetry in popular music? > > First a quote from Joni from 1994 > (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): > "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a light > bulb went > on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything now. > Prior > to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never > went into > songs." > > Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, single-handedly > made it > OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* is > what all > the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and > consistently > better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does have a > larger > lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by him > - as > opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was simply > waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his songs. > Not to > say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as > 1962. > > Witness... > > Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) > I remember how I get carried away. > I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. > Other fellas call me up for a date, > but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. > > Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: > If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's so > unjust, > Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with > dust. > Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your > blood it > must refuse to flow, > For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! > > > Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) > He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: > I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. > I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. > Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, > Paths of victory, We shall walk. > > > Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) > Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. > Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. > Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. > Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. > > Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: > Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, Vanished > from my > hand, > Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. > My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to meet > And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. > > > Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) > Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say > Girl, I still love you I'll always love you > Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag > When your baby says goodbye > > Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: > We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, > And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. > Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, > To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? > Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? > > > Just my humble opinion... > Les (not from London) > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:15:00 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc On 28 Jun 2004, at 21:48, Brian Gross wrote: > Firearms distributed in this manner are not "gifts" but are in fact > payment in > lieu of interest on the investment made. A bank customer purchasing > one of > these firearms must meet the same Federal, State and Local > requirements as The > Sports Authority or Dick's Sporting Goods customer must meet prior to > receiving > the weapon. That includes Federal and possibly State background checks > at a > minimum. Still doesn't change the fact that regardless of their status as a gift or an item of value offset against interest, this is barking f***ing mad. It really isn't any different from saying "bank with us, get a gun!": something that appeals to many people's baser instincts, or so it seems to me. I fail to see that as a positive thing, in any light. - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc - --- KindTaper@aol.com wrote: > I joined this list hoping to find other people to trade Joni shows with, not > to try and convince other people of my views on politics. I'm going back to > my > original plan, and I apologize to the whole group for ever putting my two > cents in when it didn't involve Joni. i think you guys just scared off a joni fan. maybe our loss, who knows? remember what les said tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. brian np: cold as it gets - patty griffin ===== After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. --Stan Rogers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:30:36 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc People say believe half of what you see Son, and none of what you hear -Heard It Through The Grapevine Michael Moore has responded to this accusation, and a number of others: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/ excerpt: "When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine"  that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000  and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?")  which I am filling out here for the first time  the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database which includes all federally approved gun dealerslists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922). "Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle " (Followed by a link to outtakes from the scene) Another comment Moore makes concerning his "factual errors": "Well, guess what. Total number of lawsuits to date against me or my film by the NRA? NONE. That's right, zero. And don't forget for a second that if they could have shut this film down on a technicality they would have. But they didn't and they can't  because the film is factually solid and above reproach. In fact, we have not been sued by any individual or group over the statements made in "Bowling for Columbine"" " I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible." KindTaper@aol.com wrote: > I think Michael Moore is deceitful > ...... in his distribution of gathered > information as a way of advancing his political agenda. Oops, thought you were talking about someone else for a minute. I thought Bowling For Columbine was excellent. I haven't seen the new film. Left-turned-right wing columnist Christopher Hitchens attacks it with a vengence here: Unfairenheit 9/11 The lies of Michael Moore. http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ Moore's own answer to various media attacks of Fahrenheit 9/11: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/ All purpose website attacking Bowling For Columbine: http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/index.htm Mix and match. Make up your own reality! RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:43:39 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin Giles wrote: > this is not meant as any kind of insult to Dylan, but I haven't > heard any lyrics of his that I would call poetry in the way that I would Ms. > Mitchell Lots of titles come to mind as extremely poetic. IF DOGS RUN FREE (Words and Music by Bob Dylan, 1970) If dogs run free, then why not we Across the swooping plain? My ears hear a symphony Of two mules, trains and rain. The best is always yet to come, That's what they explain to me. Just do your thing, you'll be king, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, why not me Across the swamp of time? My mind weaves a symphony And tapestry of rhyme. Oh, winds which rush my tale to thee So it may flow and be, To each his own, it's all unknown, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, then what must be, Must be, and that is all. True love can make a blade of grass Stand up straight and tall. In harmony with the cosmic sea, True love needs no company, It can cure the soul, it can make it whole, If dogs run free. Also: My Back Pages http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/mybackpa.html I Want You http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/iwantyou.html It's Alright Ma http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/itsalrma.html Temptation's page flies out the door You follow, find yourself at war Watch waterfalls of pity roar You feel to moan but unlike before You discover That you'd just be One more person crying. > > > Strike one for Joni; > > 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps > In the grey decay > They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass > Carrion and mercy.' > > Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:45:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Joni and Bob now NJC guess I should have said bravissimo Les'es. bravissimo ya'll Lesses. Em - --- Em wrote: > Bravissimo, Les! > What great points you make. > :) > Em > > --- Les Irvin wrote: > > > I'm just trying to get some > > > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > > > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > > > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > > > poetry in popular music? > > > > First a quote from Joni from 1994 > > (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): > > "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a light > > bulb went > > on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything > now. > > Prior > > to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never > > went into > > songs." > > > > Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, single-handedly > > made it > > OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* is > > what all > > the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and > > consistently > > better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does have > a > > larger > > lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by > him > > - as > > opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was simply > > waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his songs. > > > Not to > > say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as > > 1962. > > > > Witness... > > > > Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) > > I remember how I get carried away. > > I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. > > Other fellas call me up for a date, > > but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. > > > > Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: > > If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's > so > > unjust, > > Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with > > dust. > > Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your > > blood it > > must refuse to flow, > > For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) > > He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > > Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: > > I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. > > I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. > > Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, > > Paths of victory, We shall walk. > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) > > Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. > > Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. > > Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. > > Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. > > > > Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: > > Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, > Vanished > > from my > > hand, > > Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. > > My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to > meet > > And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) > > Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say > > Girl, I still love you I'll always love you > > Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag > > When your baby says goodbye > > > > Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: > > We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, > > And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. > > Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, > > To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? > > Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? > > > > > > Just my humble opinion... > > Les (not from London) > > > > > ===== > ------- > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > Tee > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:46:25 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Subject: Joni and Bob, njc in this post Well, here's a red meat topic! In today's debate, I'll be the devil's advocate, arguing for the 2nd greatest singer-songwriter of my generation, Bob Dylan. He's no slouch. When DESIRE was new, he was still messing with lyrics on the ROLLING THUNDER REVUE tour. Many of his alternate lyrics are better than final versions by anyone else (except for that pesky girl from uhh.. the north country.) Consider the alternative 3rd verse of this familiar favorite. Bob Dylan said, > A sax someplace softly played as she was walkin' on by the arcade. She heard the melody rise and fade. The sun was comin' up. She dropped a coin into the cup of a blind man at the gate, and forgot about a simple twist of fate. He woke up; she was gone. He didn't see nothing but the dawn. He got outta bed and put his clothes back on, pushed back the blinds; found a note she'd left behind to which he just could not relate, all about a simple twist of fate. He hears the ticking of the clocks and walks alone through the city blocks, hunts her down by the waterfront docks where the sailors all roll in. Maybe he'll spot her once again. How long must he wait one more time for a simple twist of fate? People tell me it's a crime to know too much for too long a time. She should have caught me in my prime. She would have stayed with me instead'a going off to Spain, and leaving me too many tapes upon that simple twist of fate. > Holy crow, dem's high quality lyrics. It's just a shame he didn't have the wisdom to hire Brian Blade. Sure, one could pick at the edges: the blind man's cup is a cliche, I know. But he doesn't use the blind man to invoke pity. The blind man gives the heroine penance for leaving the author, as she exits through the gate. What does she leave him as a keepsake? "Too many tapes". The most difficult part of her departure is that she's still in his head, like a box full of tapes, haunting him. It's not an accident that he ends with "too many tapes" all about a simple twist of fate. It sticks with the listener and is worthy of reflection after all these years. Off the soapbox, Lama for now... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:51:39 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc People say believe half of what you see Son, and none of what you hear -Heard It Through The Grapevine Michael Moore has responded to this accusation, and a number of others: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/ excerpt: "When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine"  that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000  and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?")  which I am filling out here for the first time  the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database which includes all federally approved gun dealerslists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922). "Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle " (Followed by a link to outtakes from the scene) Another comment Moore makes concerning his "factual errors": "Well, guess what. Total number of lawsuits to date against me or my film by the NRA? NONE. That's right, zero. And don't forget for a second that if they could have shut this film down on a technicality they would have. But they didn't and they can't  because the film is factually solid and above reproach. In fact, we have not been sued by any individual or group over the statements made in "Bowling for Columbine"" " I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible." KindTaper@aol.com wrote: > I think Michael Moore is deceitful > ...... in his distribution of gathered > information as a way of advancing his political agenda. Oops, thought you were talking about someone else for a minute. I thought Bowling For Columbine was excellent. I haven't seen the new film. Left-turned-right wing columnist Christopher Hitchens attacks it with a vengence here: Unfairenheit 9/11 The lies of Michael Moore. http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ Moore's own answer to various media attacks of Fahrenheit 9/11: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/ All purpose website attacking Bowling For Columbine: http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/index.htm Mix and match. Make up your own reality! RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:00:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Joni and Bob now jc again/interview Oh and one more thing; THANKS for passing that interview on. Thats got to be one of the best musician interviews I've ever read. And so perfect for the point of "joni-learning" that I happen to be at right now. Oh and another thing. Joni Mitchell gives MUCH better interviews than Bobby D. No comparison. Bless her. I'm gonna go order TI right NOW. Em - --- Em wrote: > guess I should have said bravissimo Les'es. bravissimo ya'll Lesses. > Em > > --- Em wrote: > > Bravissimo, Les! > > What great points you make. > > :) > > Em > > > > --- Les Irvin wrote: > > > > I'm just trying to get some > > > > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > > > > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > > > > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > > > > poetry in popular music? > > > > > > First a quote from Joni from 1994 > > > (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): > > > "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a > light > > > bulb went > > > on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything > > now. > > > Prior > > > to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never > > > went into > > > songs." > > > > > > Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, > single-handedly > > > made it > > > OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* > is > > > what all > > > the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and > > > consistently > > > better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does > have > > a > > > larger > > > lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by > > him > > > - as > > > opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was > simply > > > waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his > songs. > > > > > Not to > > > say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as > > > 1962. > > > > > > Witness... > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) > > > I remember how I get carried away. > > > I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. > > > Other fellas call me up for a date, > > > but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. > > > > > > Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: > > > If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's > > so > > > unjust, > > > Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled > with > > > dust. > > > Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your > > > blood it > > > must refuse to flow, > > > For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) > > > He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > > > > Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: > > > I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. > > > I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. > > > Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, > > > Paths of victory, We shall walk. > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) > > > Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. > > > Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. > > > Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. > > > Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. > > > > > > Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: > > > Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, > > Vanished > > > from my > > > hand, > > > Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. > > > My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to > > meet > > > And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) > > > Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say > > > Girl, I still love you I'll always love you > > > Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag > > > When your baby says goodbye > > > > > > Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: > > > We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, > > > And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. > > > Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, > > > To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? > > > Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? > > > > > > > > > Just my humble opinion... > > > Les (not from London) > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ------- > > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > > Tee > > > > > ===== > ------- > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > Tee > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:24:15 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin in London wrote: Now this is not meant as any kind of insult to Dylan, but I haven't heard any lyrics of his that I would call poetry in the way that I would Ms. Mitchell. I don't dislike him; he's pithy, often funny, often right on the nail. I just haven't found anything in his lyrics that strikes me in anything like the way Joni's lyrics do. Hi Martin! I couldn't agree with you more! When I was younger, more bitchy, and just learning to play guitar I could relate to and prefered Dylan's lyrics and music over Joni's. But, now I guess I'm more of a romantic and enjoy the greater challenge of Joni's guitar work. In my opinion, both are excellent poets, but they are very different. Joni's poetry strikes me as much more romantic than Dylan's as does her style of music. I hear Dylan whining out "baby let me follow you down" or "Well, I took me a woman late last night" or "Babe, I'd do it all over you" or "when your rooster crows at the break of dawn, look out your window and I'll be gone" or "she aches just like a woman but she breaks just like a little girl," or trying to get mellow singing "lay lady lay, lay across my big brass bed." These are cute and catchy but not my idea of romantic or very deep. Yes, some of his lyrics are romantic, like in Girl from the North Country or Love Minus Zero/No Limit or She Belongs to Me. But overall, I just don't think much of romantic when I think of Dylan's poetry and music. I do however when I think of Joni's, pretty much regardless of the topic. Even many of her lyrics with political overtones strike me as romantic... like The Fiddle and the Drum which is about the relationship between Canada and the USA. In regard to differences in their poetry, I would also say Dylan looks into himself and speaks from there while Joni is a visionary who looks out and speaks from a more mystical place. Overall, Dylan's lyrics and music give me the feeling that he is very much into himself; whereas, Joni's gives me the feeling that she is very much into other people and outside of herself. I find Joni's poetry is much more beautiful than Dylan's... and so is everything about her song and music. I enjoy Dylan's songs, but I am carried away by Joni's. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:25:16 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Michael Moore at the Bank - njc sorry sorry for sending this twice twice (bounced back from kindtaper, so I re-sent) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:26:16 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc **i think you guys just scared off a joni fan. maybe our loss, who knows? I doubt it Brian, and I hope not. Wes certainly has a lot to offer, in his knowledge and love of Jonis' craft and music in general. Hey, this will be the FIRST time I've ever been able to trade on the JMDL for Death Cab for Cutie shows - whoo hoo! Like the rest of us, he's a passionate person. Comes with the turf as a Joni fan. He's also smart enough to know that when you write in a public forum you'd better be ready to back it up. Lord knows I've been taken to task many times, and sometimes I even change my mind (it does help to keep it open whenever possible). He's also smart enough to realize that it's possible to steer clear of the politics if you want. Use that delete key, or go Joni-only if you want to block it out altogether. Maybe I don't agree with some of Wes' POV, but so what? I don't know anyone here who agrees with everything I say, and that's a GOOD thing. And besides, it brought you out of lurkdom too, Bro! Yippee! Bob NP: Stacy Frank, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:15:54 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob Martin wrote: > Of course, not 'getting' him that much means that I'm not familiar with a > lot of his stuff. So let's set 'em up. Joni vs. Bob .. > > Strike one for Joni; > > 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps > In the grey decay > They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass > Carrion and mercy.' Well, Les has already answered this better than I could, but I absolutely agree with his comments. And Bob might be a little "rougher" sometimes in his lyrics than Joni, and more "in your face", but the poetry is definitely there. I won't post the entire song's lyrics (just a verse or two from each), but can recommend these as songs that "hit me" when I first heard them. The entire lyrics are available from http://bobdylan.com/songs/ (and there are a hundred more I could have chosen). Dylan definitely rates as a poet in my book.... It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding Disillusioned words like bullets bark As human gods aim for their mark Made everything from toy guns that spark To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark It's easy to see without looking too far That not much is really sacred. While preachers preach of evil fates Teachers teach that knowledge waits Can lead to hundred-dollar plates Goodness hides behind its gates But even the president of the United States Sometimes must have to stand naked. Every Grain Of Sand I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintry light, In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space, In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face. I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me. I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand. My Back Pages Crimson flames tied through my ears Rollin' high and mighty traps Pounced with fire on flaming roads Using ideas as my maps "We'll meet on edges, soon," said I Proud 'neath heated brow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth "Rip down all hate," I screamed Lies that life is black and white Spoke from my skull. I dreamed Romantic facts of musketeers Foundationed deep, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:33:43 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin wrote: I'm just trying to get some insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about poetry in popular music? Hi Martin! Maybe it is the appeal of the harsh west...??? I wonder what they think in France where they kiss on mainstreet? Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob/njc just thanks to all of you who chimed in on this - tho this is Martin's thread..THANK you all for weighing in on this. You are all so freakin' LOVELY. NP: "Father of Night", reminded by Randy to listen to "New Morning" ooooo, oooooh ooohhhhhhhhh! ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:49:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're both brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up with them. And hey, 3 out of the 4 are still writing! Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "Don't Let Us Bug Ya" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: done with politics and moore - njc I feel I should respond to this as one of the people who responded to Wes' original post on Michael Moore. I don't think you have anything to apologize for Wes. You have every right to put in your two cents. And Brian, it's hard for me to see the lack of tolerance in this situation (though it certainly has been a problem sometimes in the past). I'm saying this only because I take great care, when I do jump into the political discussions, to be respectful even when disagreeing with someone and I think there has to be a distinction between not being tolerant and just engaging in discourse. Jenny Brian Gross wrote: - --- KindTaper@aol.com wrote: > I joined this list hoping to find other people to trade Joni shows with, not > to try and convince other people of my views on politics. I'm going back to > my > original plan, and I apologize to the whole group for ever putting my two > cents in when it didn't involve Joni. i think you guys just scared off a joni fan. maybe our loss, who knows? remember what les said tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. brian np: cold as it gets - patty griffin ===== After twenty-three years you'd think I could find A way to let you know somehow That I want to see your smiling face Forty-five years from now. - --Stan Rogers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're > both > brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up > with them. Hi Bob I feel that others briefly rise to the Joni/Bob level sometimes. Like Leonard Cohen. (which Joni states in that interview Les linkes) LC has. Alot. But for sheer *amount* of great stuff I think its Dylan. Its like he's Steinbeck and everyone else is Norman Mailer. Well no maybe Woody G. was Steinbeck..and Bob D. Is Kerouac and everyone else is just Ginsberg. ::shrug:: am I a fascist and/or just closeminded? How about good ol' John Stewart?? 'Nother great songwriter. Em ps I'm just jamming on this..don't nobody quote me, k? pps no disrespect to Ginsberg..much greatness there... but not the Ti Jean/Dylan gypsy-boy charm ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:56:58 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Michael Moore was fact on film? njc >she said that the message he was giving was more important than the man himself.... < I think this is often the case... humans are well... human with strengths & weaknesses... >And it's little things like bottled water. Every night he asks for 4 bottles of water to be placed strategically around the stage so that he can drink from them throughout the show... So Helen did this dutifully, made sure they were topped up in the interval etc... he 'caught her' topping them up from a fresh bottle and he said something like, 'No, I want new bottles in the 2nd half...' So she had to get 4 new bottles for the 2nd half...< He may very well be a diva but I can think of several safety reasons why he would want only sealed bottled water... to me this asking for this is asking very little compared to what some request... the other stuff about showing up late I agree is very unprofessional... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're > both > brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up > with them. Hi Bob I feel that others briefly rise to the Joni/Bob level sometimes. Like Leonard Cohen. (which Joni states in that interview Les linkes) LC has. Alot. But for sheer *amount* of great stuff I think its Dylan. Its like he's Steinbeck and everyone else is Norman Mailer. Well no maybe Woody G. was Steinbeck..and Bob D. Is Kerouac and everyone else is just Ginsberg. ::shrug:: am I a fascist and/or just closeminded? How about good ol' John Stewart?? 'Nother great songwriter. Em ps I'm just jamming on this..don't nobody quote me, k? pps no disrespect to Ginsberg..much greatness there... but not the Ti Jean/Dylan gypsy-boy charm ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #287 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)