From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #271 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, June 17 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 271 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the beginning of survival ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Beginning of Survival ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Beginning of Survival [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni Mitchell VS Angry Mexican DJ's [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Beginning of Survival -- njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] came for conversation, now on defense - njc [ReckersL@ebrd.com] Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. NJC [Em ] Why won't Joni release an older live recording? (and offer) [KindTaper@ao] Re: Beginning of Survival [Lori Fye ] Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. [Lori Fye ] That damn MG... njc and long ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: came for conversation, now on defense - njc [Lori Fye ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [dsk ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought ["Kate ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought NJC now! ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now [Em ] Re: Even more Survival stuff [Randy Remote ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought [Randy] Re: Dylan's "Masters of War" NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say ["Azeem" <] All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! [Lori F] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:50:28 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Re: the beginning of survival I'm not sure what happens to recordings and where company control and ownership of recordings begins and ends, but it has occurred to me that perhaps Joni was confronted with a situation where a compilation was going to be produced whether she liked it or not - to maximise/grind out the last possible cent from her oeuvre. Noting that she is co-producer leads me think that given that the compilation was going to happen anyway, she'd as well get on board to guide it in some meaningful way and to try to give something to her loyal base of interest (the most probable suckers/purchasers) other than songs they most likely already owned. Lets face it, some of the tracks cited as presented in the package are not her most popular/easy to get so it's still a contrarian act and not one to win many/any admirers. So that kinda fits her profile. I'd imagine the 'suits' would have gone for something more accessible - and may yet. So, much as I agree that these re-packagings of her work are at best frustrating for the vast majority of her fans, I can't really buy into her being the instigator of the plan. The moral issues raised here will not be alien to her thinking nor, I believe, has she become desensitised to the stench of hypocrisy. But what do I know, I love Reoccurring Dream. Smoochies Les (Unco - London) Our Discontent is Their Delight They Offer Relief at the Purchase Price ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:22:18 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Mmm, I'm on digest so I'm behind a bit with this. I think it's fair to say that this new compilation (gads) is meeting with less than unequivocal approbation among the 'admiring classes aspirant' hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that observation in itself rather old? It seems to me that Joni is becoming victim to that syndrome wherein you really have to be unimpeachable and rigourously consistent to have the right to express critical or concerned views in the public arena. There's something of the tall-poppy trauma being visited upon her. Just a thought. It's hard for any of us (and actually I'm really only speaking for myself here) to balance up her vituperative assaults on the music biz, then stand aside in silence/indifference as she appears to get into bed with Geffin (shudder/bleeuch) to re-present certain themed works, polish up the process and give it a sanctity based on genuinely held concerns for societal decay. Though in saying that there comes to mind an expression wherein to get something good to happen sometimes you gotta sup with the devil or something. But my presiding impression about this exercise is that it is damage control as I intimated in my other post. (it's that determined 'benefit-of-the-doubt' moment, Les - however Kate Bennet's post quoting Mike Rogonga is enough to curdle milk..the quote, that is..). I think a better call would have been not to be associated with it at all if the record company were determined to do this thing - though it would have galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's banal but even the absence of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! How much better it would have been if she perhaps revisited these (not always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, acoustic performances of them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of Lakota comes to mind as an example of one of her songs which really shows up the damage over-production does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten across her message and delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved market. I think it has been written about here in a number of ways over the last few years but Joni is being presented in such a way as to alienate her supporters and admirers. After all, we only get to hear the sound-bite stuff that is super critical and chastening. That's the stuff the media pick up and (where they are interested in Joni at all) really run with it to sell, sell, sell. It's too obviously self serving of the media forms for it to be sinister. Though there's nothing quite like discrediting someone as a personality to neuter the potency of their utterances - I mean that doesn't happen much these days (!!) It's long past the time the woman got into print and presented either one or a sequence of auto-biographies. I don't think anyone would dispute that she's got a story to tell of an interesting time in our history, a singular way of expressing and engaging with her audience and an audience prepared to listen/read. I'm suspicious that all we get to hear is the railing and berating. There's got to be more than that. But then again, perhaps not. Maybe she is just a wingeing git. And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new release. The concensus appears to be that it's unworthy of her and disappointing. And that's because she presents or is presented endlessly as being superior and hard-done-by and determined to elicit our endorsment of that view. But I think that view of her is distorted and for the reasons I've just stated but she's doing nothing about it except associating with this cash-in. But then again, what do I know, I love Dog Eat Dog. Sigh~* Les (Unco - London) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:19:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival - --- "Ross, Les" wrote: > > I think it's fair to say that this new compilation > (gads) is meeting with > less than unequivocal approbation among the > 'admiring classes aspirant' > hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago > socio-political issues were so > 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to > an audience. Am I > picking up a general weariness or intolerance for > this now or is that > observation in itself rather old? I like grouchy Joni and grouchy-Joni songs (being a grouch myself - now I don't have to write my own anthems). I don't have any problem with the choices as such - I do have a problem with their releasing yet another recycled CD, hard on the heels of the Geffen package, and containing many of the same songs. If they really are trying to sell to a new audience, it might have made sense NOT to put so much of the same material on this new one - unless they realized the Geffen box was too big and expensive for any "new" audience and it wasn't selling, although you'd think they woulda/shoulda known that before they even released it. > I think a better call would have been not to be > associated with it at all if > the record company were determined to do this thing > - though it would have > galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's > banal but even the absence > of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! It seems to me that the Cowboy Junkies' recording company released a "Greatest Hits" compilation - and they told their fans they didn't approve of it, but had no choice, and told them NOT to buy it. Maybe Joni could have done this, if she was against the idea, OR maybe she can't for fear of law suits. (In fact, I can't find wherever it was that the CJs said this - it might have been on their website but if so, I can't find it now, and find their website difficult to navigate; or it may have been taken off at their lawyers' suggestion - but you won't find any Greatest Hits CDs listed on their website either.) > How much better it would have been if she perhaps > revisited these (not > always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, > acoustic performances of > them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of > Lakota comes to mind as an > example of one of her songs which really shows up > the damage over-production > does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten > across her message and > delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved > market. This kind of thing is what so many of us would like to see/hear. The previously unreleased stuff, or even the old stuff in a different production. Not another Travelogue though. No orchestra this time. Maybe "Dog eat dog unplugged", jazz "Song to a seagull" or "Acid Blue". ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:33:12 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention -- NJC Quoting Sonic Youth, Victor writes: << recently Thurston and I have been reading this one bio in particular about them called A Long Strange Trip by this guy Dennis McNally, who's a really good writer >> And Dennis is also the brother of our own dear Maggie, who used to be on this list until she ran off to Europe with her husband in order to get away from me. - --Smurf, who loves the image of these two SY guys reading a book together "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:27:38 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell VS Angry Mexican DJ's Mr Muller writes: << Who says you can't dance to Joni? >> I didn't know anyone said that, Bob. Last I knew, people on the list were saying that they couldn't do the horizontal hula to Joni's music. - --Smurf "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:47:42 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival -- njc Les Ross writes: << Maybe she is just a wingeing git. >> This is my favorite JMDL sentence in months! XO, - --Smurf "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:59:22 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: came for conversation, now on defense - njc I (or you) could say that this whole discussion is none of my business, but not for the first time I suddenly feel compelled to say something. The reply (below) by Lama to Wes's message is something that moves me to strong feelings, a mix of pain and embarrassment and real admiration. The way I see the preceding exchangesis like this: Lama questioned, not in a rude or offensive way, the motives of a new person who was asking to trade recordings. I don't see that as particularly offensive. As Randy Remote wrote: we are protective of Joni, maybe overprotective sometimes. (And after all, bootleg traders exist, and we do get used by them at times...) We're all wired differently. Some may indeed be more suspicious, or more outspoken. That's not an offense. Lama's message was not a personal attack, just a questioning approach, wanting to see more evidence before trusting. The reply he got from Wes was much closer to a personal attack, criticising him for the way he's wired, so to speak. That hurt me much more than Lama's questions ever could. Don't get me wrong. I also enjoyed your subsequent post about what you like about Joni very much, Wes, and I hope indeed you'll stick around and send us many more enjoyable posts (more than I ever manage). But why could you not have simply replied: "I gather you have some suspicions, Lama, and I don't like them, so here's what I have to say" rather than start analysing and attacking Lama? We are trying to get to know (and like) you, but as a newcomer, can you also have a bit of humility and try to get to know Lama before you attack him? If I had been Lama, I would have been very hurt, and would not have been able to react so humbly, generously and graciously as Lama has (yet again) done. I hope it is appreciated, not just by me. Lots of love to you all, Lieve. Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:36:53 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: came for conversation, now on defense - njc Wes said, >Joni has the voice of an angel. A lady once said to me "She could sing the phone book," and that just about sums it up. When I'm driving and listening to Circle Game or Song to a Seagull or A Case of You and I start crying my eyes out at what I am hearing, I know that God is touching my soul through this woman's voice. > Ah, now this was written by a fan! My apologies. I over-think and over-write. I guess the nearest match to your interests that I can offer, Wes, is something that SCJoniGuy popularized last summer. In 1965, before she got married, Joni Anderson appeared on "Let's Sing Out". There's also an appearance from 1966 on the same program. The angelic voice you prize was already in full flower but she hadn't done much soaring as a songwriter or collaborator yet. I can't make DVDs but I'll dub that and/or the 4 VHS tapes (nearly 8 hours) of JMDL videos amassed to date. If anyone wants the "TNT All-Star Tribute" (another 2 hours in stereo), I'll dub that onto VHS too. Please write to me off-list if you want my mailing address. If you prefer to trade with someone more pleasant I'd understand and you certainly won't go wanting either way. KindTaper@aol.com wrote, in part: > I presume your suspicion is because you think I am a bootlegger or ebay seller and > I joined your list specifically for the purpose of finding rare Joni videos > and selling them. Well, you're wrong, and since you assume that I have > inappropriate intentions, I'm going to assume that you have a very difficult time > trusting people in your personal relationships. I feel sorry for you. All the best, Jim PS, Yeah, you're right, of course. Do you want the '65 show? ______________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:36:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. NJC I would even stick around just for non-Joni content at this point. Not a day goes by that this list doesn't amuse me or freak me out or otherwise touch me. (or inform me or teach me) So I'd stay just "for conversation". Helluva group. Em - --- BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > If Joni continues to release collections similar to the upcoming one, > will > people begin to leave the Joni Mitchell Discussion List in disgust? > > > Yes, probably. A number of the hard-core fans are already turned off > by the > orchestral albums, reissues and now more reissues. I'm not exactly > disgusted, > but my "relationship with Joni" (so to speak) is definitely being > tested. > Bryan > ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:03:00 +0100 From: Garret Subject: bad endings to nice days NJC Just venting some anger here, feel free to ignore. Until last night, this was shaping up to be a mostly nice week. I overcame some ridiculous block i was experiencing and managed to get some good work done. i have been making plans for a friend to visit London to see Patti Smith with me next month. although it has been really hot there has been a nice breeze all week. i went to a lovely barbeque with friends on monday. i went to a wonderful concert on tuesday called Latin Voices - featuring the immense talents of Yusa, Lila Downs, and (!!) Susana Baca. how they fit so much talent into one room, onto one stage remains a mystery:-) this was a wonderful event and i feel gifted to have had the chance to see/hear/feel this, but, alas, i found the crowd to be rude and disrespectful. people may often disparage youth (they have their reasons), but sometimes i think (some) middle aged people have long forgotten any sense of decency or manners and do things that young people would never do, do and say things they probably tell their own children not to do or say. the mass exodus during the music of Susana Baca, along with the continuous critique i could hear during the whole show, reinforces in me this conviction that developed during my five years as a part time bar man (many bitter "please have manners" moments during that time, but it put me through uni!). But still, i make a fool of meself at times too. i had a wondrous concert experience. and then wendesday. nice weather. finished a good book. got a lot of work done. had a nice lunch. went to an impressive reading of Brecht's The Mother directed by mark ravenhill in the afternoon, and a play, of sorts, called Guantanemo (sp??) that touched me deeply in the evening. all with the great company of my partner. this day was made perfect by some great conversation afterwards in a pub. and then Dermot's phone and wallet were stolen from his bag as we sat drinking vodka or beer. *and i saw nothing* the only disturbance that i recall was a pleasant guy trying to get money for charity out of us. bad endings to nice days. spoils memories. grrr sorry for venting GARRET np- Susana Baca, toro mata - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:30:03 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: Why won't Joni release an older live recording? (and offer) What I'd like to know is, with the amount of great bootlegs that are out there, why doesn't Joni go back into her archives and officially release some of those great shows? How many on this list would not buy that Club 47 show from '68 if it got released? Or who wouldn't want a pristine DVD of the pink dress concert? Of course, I'm sure we'd all love to hear something that hadn't seen the light of day before. Any ideas as to why she's never released any of the old shows? Thanks, Wes p.s. Normally Joni from the 90's is not for me, but that Gene Autry Museum show from 1995 is the greatest thing ever! Anyone want a copy? Send me an e-mail with your address! I'll take as many as I can. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:32:00 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Excellent posts, Les Ross! I'm still reading, but I want to comment on a couple of things. > And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she > seems to be these days. Very good point. "Seems" is the operative word here. > As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new > release. "and promptly," yes. Without having even seen the package, the writings, the art. Pretty hasty, I think. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:36:49 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. I wrote: > If Joni continues to release collections similar to the upcoming one, will > people begin to leave the Joni Mitchell Discussion List in disgust? Bryan replied: > Yes, probably. A number of the hard-core fans are already turned off by the > orchestral albums, reissues and now more reissues. I'm not exactly disgusted, > but my "relationship with Joni" (so to speak) is definitely being tested. Ah ... so my question really wasn't from so far in left field! Last night, Bob responded to my concern: > From what I can tell, the biggest mass departures from the JMDL comes when > the talk is all politics, which causes tempers to flare and folks to storm > off. And now Joni has decided, for whatever reasons, to co-produce an album of her songs that are mainly about ... POLITICS! What an amusing irony. Lori, who has been trying quite hard lately to refrain from posting about political things ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:44:06 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: Gene Autry setlist - vljc This is the show I offered in my last post. It's just Joni solo, and she tells the best stories and the crowd is in her hands. It was surely a magical event. The whole show is amazing, but some highlights of this show are the Cherokee Louise, and the story and buildup preceeding it. The Hejira and Song For Sharon also greatly move me. If you're curious, write me and I'll send it to you and you can see for yourself. Gene Autry Museum, Wells Fargo Theater, LA, CA 1/26/95 Refuge of the Roads Sex Kills Moon at the Window Night Ride Home Love's Cries Yvette in English Cherokee Louise Sunny Sunday Hejira Just Like This Train Face Lift Song For Sharon Take care, Wes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: Gene Autry setlist - vljc Jump at this offer, folks. An incredible show. Jerry Quoting KindTaper@aol.com: > This is the show I offered in my last post. It's just Joni solo, and she > > tells the best stories and the crowd is in her hands. It was surely a > magical > event. The whole show is amazing, but some highlights of this show are > the > Cherokee Louise, and the story and buildup preceeding it. The Hejira and > Song For > Sharon also greatly move me. If you're curious, write me and I'll send > it to you > and you can see for yourself. > > Gene Autry Museum, Wells Fargo Theater, LA, CA 1/26/95 > > Refuge of the Roads > Sex Kills > Moon at the Window > Night Ride Home > Love's Cries > Yvette in English > Cherokee Louise > Sunny Sunday > Hejira > Just Like This Train > Face Lift > Song For Sharon > > Take care, > Wes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:32:42 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo EM wrote: thanks Lori, (for everything). Wow that verse you quoted did kick ass a bit. whew.... Em :) Hi EM, Joni's words Lori quoted seem prophetic of what many today are singing about the turbulence we are in right now with the war going on, etc. The whole song (The Sire of Sorrow - Job's Sad Song) pretty much encapsulates my sorrow toward the machine that has traded the fiddle for the drum in so many aspects of life today. Love, Laura NP: Lesson in Survival - - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Em inquired: > > > So what's up with this "Turbulent Indigo"? - I've heard it referred > to > > as genius, or some such glowing thing. Is it among her best? > > Of the 1990s, yes (imo). I generally hail "Night Ride Home" as > better than TI, > but I've probably played TI more. It won two Grammy Awards in 1996: > Best Pop > Album and Best Recording Package. > > This first verse of the last song has been stuck in my head for > YEARS: > > "Let me speak let me spit out my bitterness > Born of grief and nights without sleep and festering flesh > Do you have eyes? > Can you see like mankind sees? > Why have you soured and curdled me? > Oh you tireless watcher! What have I done to you? > That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:51:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now Hi Wes Kindtaper, thank you for your wonderful post about how you discovered Joni's music (Blue is still top of my list) with her debut album nudging it closely these days... Welcome to the land of Joni pod people... lol just kidding! Kate www.katebennett.com PS, I think it is refreshing to again be arguing about joni releases rather than the state of the world... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:57:25 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: That damn MG... njc and long Wow les... that was an incredibly wonderful recollection of meeting mg... & thank you for posting that letter of hers... what an amazing soul... Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:42:48 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: came for conversation, now on defense - njc The lovely Lieve wrote: > Some may indeed be more suspicious, or more outspoken. That's not an offense. Being outspoken is not an offense. Being suspicious right off the bat, in my book, is. I don't wish to embarrass anyone or drag this on ad nauseaum, but I feel compelled to re-post the first two paragraphs of Wes's initial post (which can be read in its entirety at the bottom of this page: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v2004.n266). > I joined your group with the hopes of finding others interested in trading > live Joni shows on CD, video or DVD. I hope that kind of activity is not > frowned upon here. If it is, please let me know and I won't make any future > inquiries to this list. > > Joni's music has had a wonderful impact on my life, and I am glad that others > have been equally affected by her brilliance. One of the ways I continue to > enjoy her work is to seek out live performances that have never been > released. I have acquired a small, yet diverse collection, and hope to find > more. That's about as innocuous an introduction and request as anything I've read here. Yet Wes received a reply that seemed to him (and to me) to question his intentions and integrity. Why? Shouldn't we be sincerely welcoming everyone who wishes to join this group, regardless of their personal reasons for doing so? I applaud Jim for his subsequent kind and apologetic response to Wes, but I'm still bothered by the occasions when list members have "welcomed" newcomers with questions that represent us as a mistrustful -- and elitist -- bunch. It's happened too many times before, and Jim hasn't been the only one to do it. Seems to me that it's nearly always "old timers," though. In my opinion, it's the "old timers" -- those of us who have been here for so many years now -- in particular who should be the MOST welcoming of newcomers. Afterall, it's the new folks who ask new questions (and yes, some questions that have been asked a hundred times too, but so what?) and share new perspectives on Joni's work. Or is it just an indication of how mistrustful, as a society in general, we've become? If that's the case, then how sad. Anyway ... I say WELCOME TO EVERYONE!!! from the bottom of my heart. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:23:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention njc now I have heard OF sonic youth but never heard them... for years, decades? Now... can someone describe their music to me? (I know I know... its like dancing about architecture but I'm not ready to buy anything at this point)... I've been listening to & really liking a cd by a folk group called We're About Nine that I was very taken by (live performance no mics) at the 2004 Folk Alliance... they are from the Baltimore area... has anyone heard them? Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:59 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now > PS, I think it is refreshing to again be arguing about joni releases rather > than the state of the world... Oh, how much do you know about living in turbulent indigo? ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now soooooo, did Joni do a painting re: "turbulent indigo? Just hearing those words makes me want to whip out my biggest brushes and all my blues (paints). And have a GO! :) Em - --- Lori Fye wrote: > > PS, I think it is refreshing to again be arguing about joni > releases rather > > than the state of the world... > > Oh, how much do you know about living in turbulent indigo? > > ; ) > > Lori > ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:41:36 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Lori Fye wrote: > > > Sorry, Lori, but I have a really strong reaction to this statement. > > Fair enough, Azeem, and I'm sorry if I offended you. > > I just believe that we (or maybe just I) should take every opportunity to get > people to listen to the absolutely sensible things that Joni has written about > the ills of this world, and not just what she's written about love and personal > loss. Lori, I don't think Joni has ever been about ONLY love and personal loss. Is there any Joni cd that does NOT include some political statement? It may be personal politics, like Harry's House or The Arrangement, where the message is "carefully consider your choices and how you relate to others in the world" (which is what politics is all about; it's not a matter of which political party a person joins, that's just the way one's values are expressed), or it may be exhortations like The Fiddle and the Drum or The Banquet, which to me is all about the downside of capitalism. (The Banquet was in my head a lot during Reagan's funeral week when I was remembering the damaging effects of his "trickle-down" economic plan.) Now it feels like this topic needs serious (get out the lyrics book) investigation, but I'd rather not. It's less efficient but more enjoyable just to have all those albums playing in my head... so what's the political song on Court and Spark? I've just thought of another one... I've always thought of Rainy Night House as political... > I'm not going to get pissy because she has chosen to do *this* with part > of her Geffen catalog. Well, why the hell not?! Us other pissies, like myself, might have to reconsider your Joni-fanclub membership. > Nonetheless -- and I realize I'm in quite the minority here -- I'm just a little > excited about the new release. I may even buy it for myself! > > We're all entitled to our opinions, and again, sorry if I offended or annoyed > you. Oh, goodness, Lori, you're not offending or annoying at all! I think you've lost your mind, but there's nothing offensive about that. (All said with much affection!) One of the pleasures of this list is the drastically different viewpoint people bring to it, and I admire the enthusiasm you and others have for Joni's latest project. I don't understand it, but it's refreshing and heartfelt and that I CAN and DO appreciate. Debra Shea NPIMH: a jukebox of Joni tunes, random play ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:42:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Awww Les I was so seeing your side of the dilemma till you lost all credibility when you said ... "I love Dog Eat Dog." Pfft there it went - LOL! Sorry had to get my "Dog eat Dog is a Dog" comment in there! Ok I am not happy about this project either - I doubt she will increase her fan base - or do herself much good financially from this venture - however I DO see her getting on board to inject whatever oxygen she can into what I see as a comatose project from the get go. I think to gain or expand a fan base - she has to do some new material or do some acoustic versions of her 80's works - with the exceptions of Night Ride Home and Turbulent Indigo - which are in her upper echelon - anything would be an improvement to DED and CMIARS. Maybe there is something redeeming in those two albums. Finally, I don't know why anyone would turn away from Joni - for doing this project - that is and has been a fan and admirer for all this time. Hell I didn't turn away upon the original release of the two mentioned here. In fact when they were released I purchased them and appreciated them at the time - because they were from Joni and it was the excitement and expectation and thanks for having anything new from her. It was as time went on and I noticed I never ever played them, thats when I realized why that was - they arent very good!. So I am saying that even THEY had some worth for a while - as I waited for the master to master her art again. One more thing - I do believe lyrically they do have something to say- but its doubtful with these productions that enough will listen through to hear what's being said. Still predicting Joni will someday - make a comeback and do new material - she will find she can be heard better through words than through her art - at least more widespread ... and financially. And I think she likes that more than she would care to admit! Ok enough for now ... Peace, Susan "Ross, Les" wrote: Mmm, I'm on digest so I'm behind a bit with this. I think it's fair to say that this new compilation (gads) is meeting with less than unequivocal approbation among the 'admiring classes aspirant' hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that observation in itself rather old? It seems to me that Joni is becoming victim to that syndrome wherein you really have to be unimpeachable and rigourously consistent to have the right to express critical or concerned views in the public arena. There's something of the tall-poppy trauma being visited upon her. Just a thought. It's hard for any of us (and actually I'm really only speaking for myself here) to balance up her vituperative assaults on the music biz, then stand aside in silence/indifference as she appears to get into bed with Geffin (shudder/bleeuch) to re-present certain themed works, polish up the process and give it a sanctity based on genuinely held concerns for societal decay. Though in saying that there comes to mind an expression wherein to get something good to happen sometimes you gotta sup with the devil or something. But my presiding impression about this exercise is that it is damage control as I intimated in my other post. (it's that determined 'benefit-of-the-doubt' moment, Les - however Kate Bennet's post quoting Mike Rogonga is enough to curdle milk..the quote, that is..). I think a better call would have been not to be associated with it at all if the record company were determined to do this thing - though it would have galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's banal but even the absence of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! How much better it would have been if she perhaps revisited these (not always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, acoustic performances of them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of Lakota comes to mind as an example of one of her songs which really shows up the damage over-production does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten across her message and delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved market. I think it has been written about here in a number of ways over the last few years but Joni is being presented in such a way as to alienate her supporters and admirers. After all, we only get to hear the sound-bite stuff that is super critical and chastening. That's the stuff the media pick up and (where they are interested in Joni at all) really run with it to sell, sell, sell. It's too obviously self serving of the media forms for it to be sinister. Though there's nothing quite like discrediting someone as a personality to neuter the potency of their utterances - I mean that doesn't happen much these days (!!) It's long past the time the woman got into print and presented either one or a sequence of auto-biographies. I don't think anyone would dispute that she's got a story to tell of an interesting time in our history, a singular way of expressing and engaging with her audience and an audience prepared to listen/read. I'm suspicious that all we get to hear is the railing and berating. There's got to be more than that. But then again, perhaps not. Maybe she is just a wingeing git. And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new release. The concensus appears to be that it's unworthy of her and disappointing. And that's because she presents or is presented endlessly as being superior and hard-done-by and determined to elicit our endorsment of that view. But I think that view of her is distorted and for the reasons I've just stated but she's doing nothing about it except associating with this cash-in. But then again, what do I know, I love Dog Eat Dog. Sigh~* Les (Unco - London) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:56:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought I have to agree with bob- my teen exposure experience tells me they would not be interested in this latest release... my son (early 20's now) who was into bob marley big time, then moved into lots of rap & most recently is into local guy (but world reknown ex surfer) Jack Johnson... my exposure to JJ is that his is mellow music with a cool groove (reggae influence) interspersed with social commentary but not the hit you over the head kind... & if there is any song more relevant today than dylan's 'masters of war' I'd like to know... Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:05:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought NJC now! >Yes, I know that *most* teens are a lot like their parents: middle Americans who mainly go with the status quo and really don't give much of a rat's ass about anything that doesn't DIRECTLY affect them -- and who will swallow whatever crap the media feeds them and go ahead and vote for the incumbent president if they bother to vote at all. < Except for the not voting part the majority of teens I know are really cynical about what the media feeds them... & are definitely NOT status quo... then again my experience is based on the fact that neither am I or most of my friends... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:11:03 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Dylan's "Masters of War" NJC I don't think Kate asked this rhetorically: > & if there is any song more relevant today than dylan's 'masters of war' I'd > like to know... > > Kate > www.katebennett.com Uh, yeah...there is something a lil more relevant, Kate. 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic.' Older than Dylan, not as nasal. And catchier. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:15:29 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now Em, about to whip out her blues, wrote: > soooooo, did Joni do a painting re: "turbulent indigo? Just hearing > those words makes me want to whip out my biggest brushes and all my > blues (paints). And have a GO! I'm not sure Joni did a painting by that name, but she did numerous paintings that were included on the cd sleeve for TI. Here's the cover, which you may have already seen: http://www.jonimitchell.com/paintings.html Happy (brush) stroking! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:15:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. >If Joni continues to release collections similar to the upcoming one, will people begin to leave the Joni Mitchell Discussion List in disgust?< is this jc? My answere is not at all, I came here because of joni but I stay here because of ya'll... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:27:42 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Dylan's "Masters of War" NJC Buck wrote: > Uh, yeah...there is something a lil more relevant, Kate. 'The Battle Hymn > of the Republic.' Older than Dylan, not as nasal. And catchier. "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of a dyke "She is dressed in jeans and leather, she is riding on a bike" Oh wait ... wrong version ... "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored, "He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword "His truth is marching on." BUCK?? Have you gone religious on me?????????? A very worried Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:10:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) njc now - --- Lori Fye wrote: > I'm not sure Joni did a painting by that name, but she did numerous > paintings > that were included on the cd sleeve for TI. Oh yeah! there is alot of turbulent blue-ness there! kewl! > Here's the cover, which you may have already seen: yep I have seen that but didn't know it went w/that album. makes sense. Pretty funny. > http://www.jonimitchell.com/paintings.html > > Happy (brush) stroking! Thanks for that, Lori. Enjoyed looking at those pieces. Damn she's good! errr...Joni, too! ;) Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:15:43 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Even more Survival stuff BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > Well, since Geffen (or Reprise in some cases) holds the production rights to > the recordings, they can release this stuff as many times as they want. Maybe > Joni is just cooperating, hoping for exposure to a new audience. I wish they > would all just move on. > Bryan Master tapes revert to the artist after x years. I think it's ten. Joni may very well own them by now. I think it is extremely unlikely that this project was undertaken without her full cooperation and approval. "Ross, Les" wrote: > Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so > 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I > picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that > observation in itself rather old? I am delighted by music with these kinds of messages, but only when it works for me as a listening experience. These wordy tuneless offerings do not do that for me. "Ross, Les" wrote: > And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she > seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and > promptly over this new release. I think it's a bad move. I am not condemning Joni in any way. Lamenting her own mismanagement of her legacy, yes. As to being judgemental of a release that isn't even out yet, well, we've heard this stuff already. RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:19:49 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought jon-i-van-gel-ist (noun) one who attempts to influence others through the use of the recordings or other works of Joni Mitchell Lori Fye wrote: > So I'll buy a few copies of the new release and make gifts of them. If the > music and lyrics fall upon deaf ears, so be it, but I'm not going to stop > trying. > NPIMH: "We can change the world / Rearrange the world ... " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:10:19 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Dylan's "Masters of War" NJC Lori panicked and wrote: > "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord > "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored, > "He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword > "His truth is marching on." > > BUCK?? Have you gone religious on me?????????? > > A very worried > Lori Not a CHANCE, Sweetie!! I was actually thinking about the line that goes "...as he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free...". But, yeah, it is a hymn, after all is said and done. I'm sure jihadists have a complement. bp NP: That absolutely IRRITATING XM radio commercial with the guy in the red Alfa drving THROUGH his office building while that insipid song from The Black Eyed Peas annoys the Hell out of me. But that's just ME. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:19:53 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re-post: Early Joni Video on CBC site I'm re-posting this link for newcomers or anyone who missed it the first time. From the CBC show Take 30 May 1 1967, 9 minute video clip. http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-580-3213/life_society/hippies/ Doug ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:09:08 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say Lori wrote: <> Rest assured Lori, nothing you said was in any way *offensive* - it was more that it provoked *very* strong disagreement! << I just believe that we (or maybe just I) should take every opportunity to get people to listen to the absolutely sensible things that Joni has written about the ills of this world, and not just what she's written about love and personal loss >> Actually, I don't think much of what Joni says about politics/the ills of the world is *anything* like as profound or meaningful as what she has said about, yes, love and personal loss! Sex Kills or Tax Free or Reoccurring Dream? All old hat. Hejira, Last Time I Saw Richard, Chinese Cafi? NOW we're talking. I'd want to evangelise about the really good stuff, of which there is so damn much. Indeed, I *do* proselytise: I've been known to stand next to people in record shops at the Joni section when they've been eyeing up C&S, or Hejira, or Blue, and push them right over the cliff, doing everything bar walking them to the till and helping them get their wallet out. I would certainly not do that with this new collection, as they might not ever want to buy another Joni album if that's the first collection they hear! *Obviously* this is all "IMHO" but I would nevertheless place a sizeable wager that turning someone onto C&S or Blue would be more likely to create a new Joni fan than pointing them to Survival. The same goes for Travelogue, obviously :-) << I'm not going to get pissy because she has chosen to do *this* with part of her Geffen catalog. >> Good for you for not getting pissy! I would like to approach this project with your equanimity and enthusiasm - but I simply can't. I'm frustrated, regardless of whether it was her idea or Geffen's, although I would support what someone posted earlier about The Cowboy Junkies, whose explicit refusal to endorse a compilation they despised seemed to be the approach that would most retain their integrity. Other acts have done this in the past, including David Bowie and Talk Talk, and I'm sure there are more. As for leaving the list, the thought had never even occurred to me. Azeem in London NP: England v Switzerland - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.698 / Virus Database: 455 - Release Date: 02/06/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:08:49 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! Check out this year's Jonifest raffle give-aways: A collection of JMDLrs stories and writings from 2003-2004 3 copies of pre-release mixes Kay Ashley's upcoming CD (set for autumn release) Lots of unreleased Joni CDs 2 copies of the Dec/Jan 2004 Issue of Mountain Astrologer with an article about Joni in it 2 copies of Woman of Heart and Mind DVD 3 full sets of Jonifest 2003 DVD's Turbulent Indigo poster Joni "tarot card" magnet "Architectural Digest" book featuring Joni's house Several limited edition JMDL cookbooks like the one given to Joni in 1999 And you know ... there may be ... MORE!! Be there or we won't sing "You're So Square," cause baby, we DO care!! www.jonifest.com Lori ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #271 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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