From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #231 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, May 19 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 231 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: North and South :-) NJC..an American thing? ["A. Millington" ] re: diana krall [Garret ] re: Joni speaking [Garret ] re: kerry njc ["Paul Mepschen" ] RE: njc - first concerts? ["Norman Pennington" ] re: kerry njc ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Re: Aging [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: kerry njc ["mackoliver" ] re: kerry njc [Lori Fye ] Re: kerry njc [dsk ] Re: kerry njc [dsk ] Re: kerry njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: kerry njc ["Paul Mepschen" ] Re: kerry/nader njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: kerry/nader njc [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Aging [colin ] Re: kerry njc [dsk ] Re: kerry njc ["anon anon" ] RE: diana krall NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: kerry njc ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10:50 +1000 From: "A. Millington" Subject: Re: North and South :-) NJC..an American thing? FW: North and South :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane F. Treherne-Thomas To: millsac@bigpond.com Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: FW: North and South :-) Subject: North and South :-) Tom Barclay shares a little regional humor... The North has coffee houses, The South has Waffle Houses The North has dating services, The South has family reunions. The North has switchblade knives, The South has Lee Press-on Nails. The North has double last names, The South has double first names. The North has Ted Kennedy, The South has Jesse Helms. The North has Indy car races, The South has stock car races. The North has Cream of Wheat, The South has grits. The North has green salads, The South has collard greens The North has lobsters, The South has crawdads. The North has the rust belt, The South has the Bible Belt.. FOR NORTHERNERS MOVING SOUTH ----------- In the South: If you run your car into a ditch, don't panic. Four men in a four-wheel drive pickup truck with a tow chain will be along shortly. Don't try to help them, just stay out of their way. This is what they live for. Don't be surprised to find movie rentals and bait in the same store ....do not buy food at this store. Remember, "y'all" is singular, "all y'all" is plural, and "all y'all's" is plural possessive. Get used to hearing "You ain't from round c'heer, are ya?" Save all manner of bacon grease. You will be instructed later on how to use it. Don't be worried at not understanding what people are saying. They can't understand you either. The first Southern statement to creep into a transplanted Northerner's vocabulary is the adjective "big'ol," as in "big'ol" truck or "big'ol" boy. Most Northerners begin their Southern-influenced dialect this way. All of them are in denial about it. The proper pronunciation you learned in school is no longer proper. Be advised that "He needed killin" is a valid defense here. If you hear a Southerner exclaim, "Hey, y'all, watch this," you should stay out of the way. These are likely to be the last words he'll ever say. If there is the prediction of the slightest chance of even the smallest accumulation of snow, your presence is required at the local grocery store. It doesn't matter whether you need anything or not. You just have to go there. Do not be surprised to find that 10-year-olds own their own shotguns, they are proficient marksmen, and their mammas taught them how to aim. In the South, we have found that the best way to grow a lush green lawn is to pour gravel on it and call it a driveway. AND REMEMBER: If you do settle in the South and bear children, don't think we will accept them as Southerners. After all, if the cat had kittens in the oven, we wouldn't call 'em biscuits. Have a good day! Send this to four people that ain't related to you, and I reckon your life will turn into a country music song 'fore you know it. Your relatives would get a kick out of it too! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:51:42 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: TV crushes and a prayer NJC and to think that today we understand what was going on and we have so many names (bears, daddies, otters, twinks, blah blah blah) but we were so puzzled and thrilled and scared as young homos. we knew we were looking where we were not supposed to look and still we looked. thanks god we dared to keep on looking. what a long, self-searching, silent process gay childhood is. how very few survive the stifling sunday afternoons, the lonely corners, the terrifying thought that you are the ONLY one. how many confuse the comfort of the closet with love and marry into the mainstream only to discover later in life that it's a hundred times as hard to accept that you never stopped looking although you did your best not to SEE. i pray for all the young homos today -- the ones in grade school, the playground... looking, looking, looking -- may god protect them and let them find the answers we had to fight so hard for. god bless the young of my tribe. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > mackoliver > Enviado el: Miircoles, 19 de Mayo de 2004 03:35 a.m. > Para: joni > Asunto: Re: TV crushes NJC > > > What self respecting homo would not have Don? And those very tight pants > and I didn't even know what was going on yet, but I looked. Oh yes, I > looked. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:04:41 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: TV crushes and a prayer NJC The Wally formerly known as *W* writes: << god bless the young of my tribe. >> Thanks, Wally. And thanks for the magical -- as always -- appearance by the Birthday Fairy on my birthday. That may have been the best BF episode ever, although I can't believe you would subject that sensitive being to Freudian analysis. *W* also says: << what a long, self-searching, silent process gay childhood is. how very few survive the stifling sunday afternoons, the lonely corners, the terrifying thought that you are the ONLY one. >> I have no idea what you're talking about here, dear. *I* was recruited! XO, - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:09:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Neil Young tribute in NYC, June 26 - njc I read this in Jane Siberry's newsletter. - -------------------------------------------------- Saturday, June 26 7:30pm HAL WILLNER'S NEIL YOUNG PROJECT featuring CAT POWER / RON SEXSMITH / IRON AND WINE / JANE SIBERRY / ANTONY / THE BE GOOD TANYAS / JENNI MULDAUR / BONFIRE MADIGAN / JOAN WASSER / JANE SCARPANTONI AND MORE Following up last season's monumental homage to Leonard Cohen - one of Time Out NY's Top Ten Live Performances of the Year - visionary producer HAL WILLNER explores the oeuvre of NEIL YOUNG with a sparkling lineup of guest artists. Presented with major support from the Canadian Consulate General in New York. More info: http://www.briconline.org/celebrate/schedule.asp ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:13:03 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Offer: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 11-20 of JM Covers Hi, dears! I've just received this pack of Joni Covers' discs, with many thanks to Doug, who sent them to me, to Eric for sending all these wonderful stuff all over the world (rolling the ball, rolling the ball, rolling the ball... to me) and, of course, to Bob, who made this: the most impressive collection in Popular Music! I'm awfully busy these days, but, since copying and burning discs is such an automatic matter, I know I'll be able to send these volumes by Friday (Saturday at last) So send me your address + Promise to reoffer them on list and they'll be yours! Yes! Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano Note: I include here the post from Doug and the one for Eric: as you see, Doug kindly added some interesting and new found concert. Thanks!!! - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Doug" Para: "Joni List" Enviado: lunes, 10 de mayo de 2004 23:38 Asunto: Offer: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 11-20 of JM Covers > With thanks to Eric, I have Volume 11 to 20 to pass on to the next lucky > person. > I have added to the package the new mystery Joni recording which I call: > > Joni Mitchell - Germany? 1968 > > 1) Marcie > 2) Nathan La Franeer > 3) Dr. Junk Intro > 4) Dr. Junk The Dentist Man > 5) Roses Blue > 6) Circle Game/Little Green > 7) I Don't Know Where I Stand > 8) Go Tell The Drummer Man > 9) Michael From Mountains > > First to send me an address and promise to *promptly* re-offer gets it. > Doug > > ps If anyone knows any details about this recording, please let us know. > > > > > > Eric's original post: > > In order to enable latecomers to the list or > new traders have a chance of listening to Bob Muller's incredible > compilation of covers of Joni's songs - some 1500 in all - this begins the > launch of the Perpetual Joni Covers Trains. For those not familiar with > trading trains, here is how they work. When the disks come to you, you make > copies of as much of the contents as you want, and then you post back to > this list offering to pass the disks along to the next person. You do not > keep the originals -- you keep the copies you made for yourself. On most > trains, the convention is that you make the copies and send the masters > along within two days. For these trains, you must agree to turn them around > within one week. Sometimes the offer goes unclaimed. Bob and I expect that > to happen from time to time. So, by participating, you agree to just hang > on to the disks and then make another offer a month or so later (or to > respond if somebody posts a grovel looking for them). In theory, if > everybody takes good care of the disks, wrapping them well, not letting them > get scratched, etc. and passes them along, these covers will run on the > tracks for years. Bob copied 50+ disks for me to launch this and I have > copied them so there is a LOT of time sunk into offering these up. Nobody > is going to monitor the progress of these trains so if you participate and > then lose the disks or fail to reoffer them, you will have kept others from > enjoying them. When you post an offer, please include these "rules". One > final note, I know a few folks like to compress these into MP3s. If you > want to, go ahead but please do not send MP3s to the next person - MP3s > permanently delete some of the "data" and sound quality degrades so please > pass the masters along. > > So, anybody who would like to receive volumes 11-20, please send me: > 1. Your mailing address and > 2. Your promise to reoffer, etc. > > If you want to know what is on the disks, please see this link: > > http://www.jmdl.com/covers/byvolume.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:25:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC: other "TV" crushes Smurf wrote: > Muller, I think, wrote: > I used to like "Maude," but who knew I would turn into her in my > mature > years! LMAO!!!!!!! may I date your daughter Miss Arthur? I, on the other hand, turned into a short fat female Tommy Lee Jones with very short white hair. Now is that scary or what??? I used to think when my hair was too long, that I looked like McGarrett on 5-O. And my brother used to think he looked like Mary Tyler Moore when his got too long. I think I was more handsome when I looked like McGarrett. sigh..... tempus fu__it! Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:09:01 +0100 From: Garret Subject: re: diana krall Diana Krall. So, this new album is being talked up by everyone, eh? I would get it, but my partner has this violent reaction against her. it may have smoething to do with the poster for her new record in tube stations which calls her something like " trhe most intelligent singer today". he finds her boring from what i recall, and wouldn't mind if her and Elvis Costello became marine explorers and took theri respective back catalougess with thme. he dislikes Joni more than is natural, has used the term hate (and that is among the more, ehrm, reasonable terms), and *will not sit in the same room if she is playing!!* he's not a fan of patti smith, but has admitted to really enjoying her concerts (i've only subjected him to three in the last ten months). The anti-Joni partner. How common is this? (he was surprised at Dry Cleaner, and quite likes it) we do agree on some music mind you:-) GARRET (sunny London is KILLING me; i hope it's colder when i go to Sweden next week) NP- Sam Shaber, Bare - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:28:54 +0100 From: Garret Subject: re: Joni speaking Joni is quite the story teller. There are some video's that have been tree-d on the list thanks to the devotion of Ashara. I'm sure someone could copy them and get them out to you, although this may be what you are talking about (acutally, i haven't seen most of them myself, i'm always threatening Chris that i'll invade his home at some point for a day of Joni videos). From what i have seen, Joni is a good interview guest. She manages to talk a lot, but remain pretty respectful of the question asked. her live concerts also feature a lot of chat, and there are some great stories and explanations and descriptions in the joni bootleg body. In terms of the way she ties her painting and music together, i've always liked this too; that way Joni discusses music visually. She sees herself, i suppose, as a painter first ("i am a lonely painter") and a singer-songwriter second. It seems to me that she is following her muse, whatever that elusive concept means (makes sense to the artists, no?). Sometimes it leads her to be more productive musically/lyrically and sometimes she is doing photography and sometimes painting. The creative drive is the same, and even though she is less productive on the music front than she was thirty years ago, the drive is probably sitll there. I imagine she is painting a lot at the moment; cats, flowers, landscapes. remeber her 9/11 paintings? I can only hope that the muse will put her in front of the piano at some point soon. GARRET np- Patti Smith, Cash Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Joni speaking Had the opportunity to watch some video last evening of JM. Realized I'd never seen or heard her speaking, like in an interview or whatever. I was really REALLY pleasantly surprised. I love how she pulls ideas out of many facets of life and existence and knowledge, and uses that in her speech when talking about her work. Makes connections. Well, when talking about anything, I suppose. She's good to listen to. Be fun to have a good conversation with this woman. Or even listen to her have a convo w/someone else. And she's funny too. I bet off camera she can be hilarious. So, she's not an ice queen. I was so afraid she would be. Not sure why. But she's not. She's quite warm and vibrant and oh so intelligent and I think, fun. Got my CD of DJRD, sigh, still am finding no joy. Am waiting on HOSL to arrive. Like an idiot ordered STAS twice. So now I have 2 copies. lol. Anyway, just wanted to say how impressed I was with this Joni Mitchell of you all's. And I like how she ties in speaking about her painting to music. Like its all one big art, but with necessary (business driven) partitions. This woman is brilliant indeed. Damn now I want to meet her...lol..not holding my breath.. Em ps damn fine guitarist too, was great watching her play. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:02:43 +0200 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: re: kerry njc lori writes: "you want four more years of the way things are, that's your choice, but I'm dismayed by anyone who wishes for four more years of this on the U.S. -- and by extension, on the world." a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as well. i thought the US was a democracy -- so why is everybody jumping at Nader supporters as if they are some kind of fascists that need to be crushed -- I think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real vote for change, a vote away from the US being dominated by ONE big business party, the Republicrats. p.a.u.l.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:31:50 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: RE: njc - first concerts? I had to sleep on this one. The first live bands I saw were the Beach Boys and Dick Dale and the Deltones back in '62 when they were playing "teen" concerts and high school proms in LA's South Bay. Both these bands still had "garage band" status at that time...big in LA, unknown outside of SoCal. This was in the Dark Ages...I'm not quite sure exactly when the concert industry as we know it today began...if I had to guess I'd say somewhere around 1964-1965, with the British Invasion. I cannot remember my first official big-venue, big-name concert. "I hope it wasn't just the drugs..." bp, wondering where those memories actually went ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:01:49 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: re: kerry njc <> oh, i totally agree, Paul - in theory. but the real brass tacks *fact* of the matter is that there is no way that Nadar or any other green candidate can win the 2004 election. no way in hell. the numbers just aren't there. so by voting FOR nadar, you're, in effect, wasting your vote. you may as well just stay home that day. would i like things to be different? of course i would. and not only because i happen to agree with much of the green platform. but realistically, i don't know what kind of candidate it would take to allow there to be a viable third party, especially in the near future, possibly ever! it'd have to be someone HUGE - already known and proven and trustworthy - and i can't think of one single person, and especially not anyone in the political arena. they'd have to be as well known as michael jordan (but not black), as spotless as the pope (but not as old - but not too young either), as charismatic and attractive as jfk (but less dead and less randy), etc etc etc.... cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:00:30 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Aging Colin wrote: Even tho I am sure we survive physicval death, I still am freaked by 1. getting old(most unfair) Hi Colin, Getting older makes life interesting to me. However, I don't care for the diseases that tend to come with aging. Normal aging doesn't include things like arthritis and Alzheimer disease, but aging increases the probability of getting these diseases. If I was always a particular age, I'd get bored. Aging motivates me. Like I'd better hurry up and buy a piano and learn to play it before my time runs out... "Well, something's lost but something's gained in living every day." I look forward to my hair turning white. I also look forward to my kids growing up and becoming more self sufficient. It would seem unfair to me if kids didn't grow up or if adults never got old enough to retire... like that Robert Browning poem, "grow old along with me, the best is yet to be." Joni is such an awesome example of how getting older can be a very beautiful thing. The progression of her music from the 60's to now has made such an impact on my life. She is such a generous person to have shared so much of herself with us over all these years. I learned at the AA retreat in Chicago that the opposite of depression is expression. Joni to me is the goddess of expression. She's taught me that self expression can be enhanced by aging. I wonder what her next expression will be? I have a feeling the best is yet to come. Love and awe, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:13:02 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: kerry njc A vote for Nader is simply a wasted vote and one might as well just stay at home. If it has any effect whatsoever it is to help the Republican party and that thing in the White House. mack - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Vickery" To: "Paul Mepschen" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: re: kerry njc > < vote for change, a vote away from the US being dominated by ONE > big business party, the Republicrats.>> > > oh, i totally agree, Paul - in theory. > but the real brass tacks *fact* of the matter is that there is no > way that Nadar or any other green candidate can win the 2004 > election. no way in hell. the numbers just aren't there. so by > voting FOR nadar, you're, in effect, wasting your vote. you may > as well just stay home that day. > would i like things to be different? of course i would. and not > only because i happen to agree with much of the green platform. > but realistically, i don't know what kind of candidate it would > take to allow there to be a viable third party, especially in the > near future, possibly ever! it'd have to be someone HUGE - > already known and proven and trustworthy - and i can't think of > one single person, and especially not anyone in the political > arena. they'd have to be as well known as michael jordan (but > not black), as spotless as the pope (but not as old - but not too > young either), as charismatic and attractive as jfk (but less > dead and less randy), etc etc etc.... > > cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:25:02 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: re: kerry njc Paul wrote: >> I think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real >> vote for change, a vote away from the US being dominated by ONE >> big business party, the Republicrats.>> Cindy replied: > oh, i totally agree, Paul - in theory. Hey, I'm pretty much as "Green" as anyone in most respects (although I identify with much of the Libertarian platform too), and if someone like Nader (but *not* Nader himself; I think he's an arrogant ass) could beat Bush, I would considering voting for her or him. As Cindy pointed out so well, though, there is no viable alternative to Bush BUT Kerry. And right now, I'm most interested in getting Bush out of office. No, Kerry and the Democrats (although I'm registered as one) are not necessarily the best or most perfect alternative. But Kerry and the Dems are the MOST VIABLE alternative. At this stage, if I must vote for the lesser of two evils, then that's who I'm voting for. It's completely your right to vote for whomever you wish. But it's simple math: if you vote for someone other than Kerry, you are reducing his chances to win. You may as well write in your best friend's name for all the good it will do. On a related note, several people have mentioned that they would join another party (Green, Libertarian, whatever) if it were more viable. The only way to make those parties more viable is to JOIN them -- but please, if you haven't bothered to do so until now, then wait until after the November election. After the election, work your ass off over the next four years to make another party viable. But don't just talk about it; DO IT. Have membership barbeques or parties, raise money, get out there and work it. Don't just talk about it and then throw your vote in the toilet every election. And for god's sake, don't throw your vote away THIS election. Lori "Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote." - George Jean Nathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:34:52 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: kerry njc Paul Mepschen wrote: > > a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as > well. i thought the US was a democracy -- so why is everybody jumping at Nader > supporters as if they are some kind of fascists that need to be crushed -- I > think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real vote for change, a > vote away from the US being dominated by ONE big business party, the > Republicrats. Well, so you say from The Netherlands. People here see it differently and have said so many times, but you don't seem interested in paying any attention to that. Such rigid extreme left-wing thinking is as unappealing to me as the Bushies' extreme right-wing thinking. Both are black/white and lack subtlety. I disagree completely that Kerry's administration will be a continuation of the Bushies' destructive policies. It's a clichi but true that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, and why would anyone, especially anyone tending toward the left, want to re-elect Bush? Nader will never get elected here. I am completely disgusted with his actions. Nader's not the idealist he presents himself to be and it's a mystery as to why he's being so destructive. According to the left-wing Village Voice, he's playing out a grudge against the Democrats, which really isn't very idealistic, is it? And he's being incredibly stupid. His idea that disaffected conservatives will vote for him is just plain wacky. His biggest financial supporters are conservatives because they're very happy he'll be taking votes away from Kerry. And you want to support that??? You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory all you want, and continue to scold us "non-idealistic" U.S. voters, but it's empty talk and empty action and playing right into the hands of conservatives. I much prefer to give a vote toward making a change to something better. And, YES, a Kerry administration would be better than what's happening now. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:39:35 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: kerry njc Lori Fye wrote: > > ... At this stage, if I > must vote for the lesser of two evils, then that's who I'm voting for. As my favorite funny man Bill Maher recently pointed out, voting for the "lesser evil" isn't such a bad thing to do when the alternative is helping a "greater evil" get re-elected. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:13:15 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: kerry njc Debra, with her usual eloquence, said, in part: > > You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory > all you want, and continue to scold us "non-idealistic" U.S. voters, but > it's empty talk and empty action and playing right into the hands of > conservatives. I much prefer to give a vote toward making a change to > something better. And, YES, a Kerry administration would be better than > what's happening now. > Interesting conundrum, this. Debra is spot-on when it comes to theory vs. practice, particularly when it comes down to Realpolitik in the US. But at what point does one REALLY begin to follow their conscience? When one literally reaches a point where they throw open the window and yell "I'm sick and tired of it and I won't take any more!!"? If there were truly that many people dissatisfied with the current alternatives, the Greens/Libertarians/Legalize Pot/Socialist/Communist (and yeah, I really DO mean the CPUS) parties' membership would soar. But, the fact is the OVERWHELMING majority of us Amuricans are satisfied with the status quo. As a side-note, I had my fling with conscience in 1996...I voted Libertarian in the presidential election. And...I encourage those folks who feel like they SHOULD vote for Ralph to do so. Serves YOUR and MY interests both. We'll both sleep better. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:36:27 +0200 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: Re: kerry njc I know some people feel it's none of my business because I'm dutch, but I feel anything happening in the states concerns us as well -- Debra says: >People here see it differently > and have said so many times, but you don't seem interested in paying any > attention to that. If that was true, then what's the big fuss about anyway? Why scold independents if all Americans 'see it differently' - the truth of the matter is that millions of progressive Americans aren't sure at all that they wanne support Kerry -- and many lean to the left. Debra: > I disagree completely that Kerry's > administration will be a continuation of the Bushies' destructive > policies. Then what would be so different about him? Michael Moore pointed out eloquently in Stupid White Men how Clinton was the best republican president the US had ever had -- god knows he supported Clark this time around, the Democrat closest to Bush, but everybody seems to go crazy these days. Well, Kerry is pretty much to the right of Bill Clinton even -- I don't see him make a difference. Of course, I prefer Kerry over Bush, but I think the US is being held captive by a two parties with similar political platforms, and the US Left by an allegience to the Democrats that has little to do with reality anymore -- weren't Clinton's politics destructiv? Under his leadership there were more cuts in social security than ever before, for one. And during his eight years the poor in the States got poorer and the rich richer. That's destructive. > You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory > all you want, Oh please, I resent this - I can read english, I have access to the net -- I don't need marxist friends feeding me information. Get a grip. Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: "dsk" To: "Paul Mepschen" ; Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:34 PM Subject: Re: kerry njc > Paul Mepschen wrote: > > > > a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as > > well. i thought the US was a democracy -- so why is everybody jumping at Nader > > supporters as if they are some kind of fascists that need to be crushed -- I > > think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real vote for change, a > > vote away from the US being dominated by ONE big business party, the > > Republicrats. > > Well, so you say from The Netherlands. People here see it differently > and have said so many times, but you don't seem interested in paying any > attention to that. Such rigid extreme left-wing thinking is as > unappealing to me as the Bushies' extreme right-wing thinking. Both are > black/white and lack subtlety. I disagree completely that Kerry's > administration will be a continuation of the Bushies' destructive > policies. > > It's a clichi but true that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, and why > would anyone, especially anyone tending toward the left, want to > re-elect Bush? Nader will never get elected here. I am completely > disgusted with his actions. Nader's not the idealist he presents himself > to be and it's a mystery as to why he's being so destructive. According > to the left-wing Village Voice, he's playing out a grudge against the > Democrats, which really isn't very idealistic, is it? And he's being > incredibly stupid. His idea that disaffected conservatives will vote for > him is just plain wacky. His biggest financial supporters are > conservatives because they're very happy he'll be taking votes away from > Kerry. And you want to support that??? > and continue to scold us "non-idealistic" U.S. voters, but > it's empty talk and empty action and playing right into the hands of > conservatives. I much prefer to give a vote toward making a change to > something better. And, YES, a Kerry administration would be better than > what's happening now. > > Debra Shea, > in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:01:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: kerry/nader njc I'm not trying to add fuel for debate, but I do want to add another viewpoint... If Nader is on the ballot in Massachusetts, I will vote for him. I have that luxury. Kerry will take MA with or without my vote. So, 'A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush' doesn't apply across the board in an electoral voting system. If I lived in a swing state the choice of course, would not be so easy. But, I'm tired of hearing the old Nader cost Gore the election song and dance - one of dozens different 'what-if' scenarios. And if Florida is the lesson learned, I think the Democrats would best spend at least an equal amount of energy convincing Democrats to vote for Kerry as they do trying to convince them not to vote for Nader. The democrats in Florida who voted for Bush (far greater a number than those who voted for Nader) are just as responsible for "costing" Gore the election (if you like collecting what-if scenarios). I just want to say that voting for someone who gives voice to the causes and platforms you believe in is never throwing a vote away - regardless of the current state of third parties in the U.S. and the obstacles to establishing them as a signicant voice. Increasing public awareness of issues otherwise ignored is positive and can be a force for change in and of itself. Just ask Howard Dean - the candidate who spoke out against the war. And boy did the other candidates jump on the bandwagon when they saw what a positive response he got. Jenny dsk wrote: Paul Mepschen wrote: > > a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as > well. i thought the US was a democracy -- so why is everybody jumping at Nader > supporters as if they are some kind of fascists that need to be crushed -- I > think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real vote for change, a > vote away from the US being dominated by ONE big business party, the > Republicrats. Well, so you say from The Netherlands. People here see it differently and have said so many times, but you don't seem interested in paying any attention to that. Such rigid extreme left-wing thinking is as unappealing to me as the Bushies' extreme right-wing thinking. Both are black/white and lack subtlety. I disagree completely that Kerry's administration will be a continuation of the Bushies' destructive policies. It's a clichi but true that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, and why would anyone, especially anyone tending toward the left, want to re-elect Bush? Nader will never get elected here. I am completely disgusted with his actions. Nader's not the idealist he presents himself to be and it's a mystery as to why he's being so destructive. According to the left-wing Village Voice, he's playing out a grudge against the Democrats, which really isn't very idealistic, is it? And he's being incredibly stupid. His idea that disaffected conservatives will vote for him is just plain wacky. His biggest financial supporters are conservatives because they're very happy he'll be taking votes away from Kerry. And you want to support that??? You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory all you want, and continue to scold us "non-idealistic" U.S. voters, but it's empty talk and empty action and playing right into the hands of conservatives. I much prefer to give a vote toward making a change to something better. And, YES, a Kerry administration would be better than what's happening now. Debra Shea, in NYC SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:02:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: kerry/nader njc I'm not trying to add fuel for debate, but I do want to add another viewpoint... If Nader is on the ballot in Massachusetts, I will vote for him. I have that luxury. Kerry will take MA with or without my vote. So, 'A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush' doesn't apply across the board in an electoral voting system. If I lived in a swing state the choice of course, would not be so easy. But, I'm tired of hearing the old Nader cost Gore the election song and dance - one of dozens different 'what-if' scenarios. And if Florida is the lesson learned, I think the Democrats would best spend at least an equal amount of energy convincing Democrats to vote for Kerry as they do trying to convince them not to vote for Nader. The democrats in Florida who voted for Bush (far greater a number than those who voted for Nader) are just as responsible for "costing" Gore the election (if you like collecting what-if scenarios). I just want to say that voting for someone who gives voice to the causes and platforms you believe in is never throwing a vote away - regardless of the current state of third parties in the U.S. and the obstacles to establishing them as a signicant voice. Increasing public awareness of issues otherwise ignored is positive and can be a force for change in and of itself. Just ask Howard Dean - the candidate who spoke out against the war. And boy did the other candidates jump on the bandwagon when they saw what a positive response he got. Jenny dsk wrote: Paul Mepschen wrote: > > a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as > well. i thought the US was a democracy -- so why is everybody jumping at Nader > supporters as if they are some kind of fascists that need to be crushed -- I > think a vote for nader or another green candidate IS a real vote for change, a > vote away from the US being dominated by ONE big business party, the > Republicrats. Well, so you say from The Netherlands. People here see it differently and have said so many times, but you don't seem interested in paying any attention to that. Such rigid extreme left-wing thinking is as unappealing to me as the Bushies' extreme right-wing thinking. Both are black/white and lack subtlety. I disagree completely that Kerry's administration will be a continuation of the Bushies' destructive policies. It's a clichi but true that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, and why would anyone, especially anyone tending toward the left, want to re-elect Bush? Nader will never get elected here. I am completely disgusted with his actions. Nader's not the idealist he presents himself to be and it's a mystery as to why he's being so destructive. According to the left-wing Village Voice, he's playing out a grudge against the Democrats, which really isn't very idealistic, is it? And he's being incredibly stupid. His idea that disaffected conservatives will vote for him is just plain wacky. His biggest financial supporters are conservatives because they're very happy he'll be taking votes away from Kerry. And you want to support that??? You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory all you want, and continue to scold us "non-idealistic" U.S. voters, but it's empty talk and empty action and playing right into the hands of conservatives. I much prefer to give a vote toward making a change to something better. And, YES, a Kerry administration would be better than what's happening now. Debra Shea, in NYC SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:40:54 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Aging LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: >Colin wrote: > >Even tho I am sure we survive physicval death, I still am >freaked by 1. getting old(most unfair) > > Hi Colin, > > Getting older makes life interesting to me. However, I don't care for >the diseases that tend to come with aging. Normal aging doesn't include things >like arthritis and Alzheimer disease, but aging increases the probability of >getting these diseases. > > > I said njothing about getting older not having it's benefits-sprritually and emotionally it definately does(if one works at it). however, the physical limitations and infirmities are not something to jump up and down with joy about. I see my firends falling apart, some of them painfully. I am aware of my own body changes, my partner's changes etc denial of the changes age causes doesn't stop those changes. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:27:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: kerry njc Paul Mepschen wrote: > > I know some people feel it's none of my business because I'm dutch, but I > feel anything happening in the states concerns us as well -- It's easier to be idealistic when one doesn't live directly with the results. > Then what would be so different about him? Michael Moore pointed out > eloquently in Stupid White Men how Clinton was the best republican president > the US had ever had -- Why take that one book as the Absolute Truth? It seems like everyone who's read that book believes, without question, what Michael Moore said about the two main parties being exactly the same, and it's just not true. It wasn't true in 2000, and Bush's actions have made it even clearer that it's not true now. > ... Of course, I prefer Kerry over Bush, but I think the US > is being held captive by a two parties with similar political platforms, And did you read the platforms each party presented at their 2000 conventions? Probably not, because if you had you'd see a difference, at least in what the parties were aiming for. > the US Left by an allegience to the Democrats that has little to do with > reality anymore -- weren't Clinton's politics destructiv? Under his > leadership there were more cuts in social security than ever before, for > one. And during his eight years the poor in the States got poorer and the > rich richer. That's destructive. There were many things Clinton did that I disagreed with. I'd still vote for him over helping a Republican get elected. > > You, and your friends feeding you information, can talk Marxist theory > > all you want, > > Oh please, I resent this - I can read english, I have access to the net -- I > don't need marxist friends feeding me information. Get a grip. In one of your early messages, you mentioned your friends in the U.S. giving you information about what's happening here, and their displeasure with the choices made by the majority of U.S. voters. You've not given any evidence that you've gone beyond that thinking. There's no need to worry about my grip, Paul. Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:20:06 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Re: kerry njc Just about ANYONE would be the lesser of 2 evils compared to W.He's about as evil as you can get...so what if Kerry is a 'c-'.Bush is an 'F'.(and that's being charitable) >From: dsk >Reply-To: dsk >To: Lori Fye , joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: kerry njc >Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:39:35 -0400 > >Lori Fye wrote: > > > > ... At this stage, if I > > must vote for the lesser of two evils, then that's who I'm voting for. > >As my favorite funny man Bill Maher recently pointed out, voting for the >"lesser evil" isn't such a bad thing to do when the alternative is >helping a "greater evil" get re-elected. > >Debra Shea _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:02:32 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: diana krall NJC Oh Garret, I am loving the new Diana Krall, so I'm happy you have a partner with whom you can make music, but sad that you cannot relish the experience of this album. Someone said they hear Joni in her voice - I don't hear that, but I do hear the Elvis Costello influence in some of the lines of their songs, and I think that it very cool. Like she's channeling Elvis (Costello, Paz), and since I love EC and his catalogue and really like her voice and piano playing/composition, well, I'm down with that. Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: Garret [mailto:garret@hatstand.org] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:09 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: re: diana krall Diana Krall. So, this new album is being talked up by everyone, eh? I would get it, but my partner has this violent reaction against her. it may have smoething to do with the poster for her new record in tube stations which calls her something like " trhe most intelligent singer today". he finds her boring from what i recall, and wouldn't mind if her and Elvis Costello became marine explorers and took theri respective back catalougess with thme. he dislikes Joni more than is natural, has used the term hate (and that is among the more, ehrm, reasonable terms), and *will not sit in the same room if she is playing!!* he's not a fan of patti smith, but has admitted to really enjoying her concerts (i've only subjected him to three in the last ten months). The anti-Joni partner. How common is this? (he was surprised at Dry Cleaner, and quite likes it) we do agree on some music mind you:-) GARRET (sunny London is KILLING me; i hope it's colder when i go to Sweden next week) NP- Sam Shaber, Bare - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:43:45 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: kerry njc it was written: "a vote for kerry is basically a vote for four more years the way things are as well." to which i reply: total bullshit. There will be three Supreme Court justices positions up next year and does anyone conceivably beleive that Bush and Kerry will nominate the same persons? Rehnquist is stepping down and Bush has long championed Justice Scalia. Chief Justice Scalia. ANyone want to say that Kerry will promote Scalia as Bush will? A constitutional amendment against gays. Bush. Favors. Kerry does not. Make your choice. The actual invasion of Iraq and the conduct once there - anyone want to say that there was no difference between the candidates in 2000 or 2004? The environment. Bush and Kerry the same? I am tired of "I am so superior I am above it all you are all the same" people. What a wonderful disconnect from the real world. Botha. Mandela. All the same. I am chair of my county's Democratic party. I was just at the major state event last Saturday and spoke with Senators Stabenow and Levin, Representative Gephardt, and Governor Granholm, people that I have worked with for years. The policy differences between the 2 parties is huge. It is a chasm. To suggest that we as Democrats are the same as Republicans is not only pure bullshit, it is a total disconnect from reality and the historical record. I have heard the oh so cute line that Clinton was the best republican president ever. So glib, so ha ha funny. So wrong. There were things that Clintgon did that I was very opposed to and I know where he veered right when I wouldn't have but the total package, the total 8 years - please don;t insult me to say that a Bush and Dole presidency would ahve yielded the same things as a Clinton presidency. What the hell has GW bewen rolling back for the last 3 years if not all the gains we made under Clinton. Bush's administration just announced that for an endangered specieis of fish out west, there are going to count farm fish as wild fish so they can stop the environmental-endangered species controls. Tell me you think a Democratic adminsitartion woulld do that. That si one small issue. Take it up larger and larger and larger. Before I went online I was at our local party office with a bunch of people working furiously to get rid of our Republican congressman and Bush. What an insult to these people that you say that they are nothing more than Republicans. The party is far from perfect. The Democratic party should have differing stances in my opinion than where it is. I am working for change from within, where it will happen. Yet night after night I sit down with a lot of folks out here who bring all kinds of feelings and attitudes and opinions on all kinds of issues and we have got to have a place where we can find some commoin ground and make change happen. There is nothing like the reality check of sitting with 5-20 different people every night and talking about issues. Talking about war. Talking about the economy. Talking about justice. This will surprise many but one of the reasons we are doing so well is that I say nothing, I sit back and listen to what people feel, what they think, what they want me to know as chair of our party out here, no matter side of the fence they are on. The reality is that we have to operate on a dual track. I have my visions of what I wish to be and I woirk towards those. But it is a matter of reaching people with that vision - which means getting out and working with people - and taking the steps that we need to take one step at a time or two if we can to get to where we want to go. It takes time. Electibility is an issue. There are a lot of folks out there who see things very differently. A lot of conversation has to happen. If we work, and organize, and work, and organize, and work, and organize, and work, and organise, change will happen. It has and will continue to. But please do not insult the good folk that I work with and the candidates we support and the elected officials that I know andf say that we are all the same ands we make no difference. Anyone who cannot see the difference between a Kerry and a Bush is someone with serious perception issues. Not a dime's worth of diffwerence between the parties- George Wallace, 1968. Ralph Nader, now. Both demogagues and both wrong and both pushing their own damn selves. hey Ralph, how come you never ever found another canditate to endorse in any elction? For Nader it is always Nader or no one. Now there is someone who's got some self-glory issues happening. Ralph Nader has done some good things. In the past. And maybe in the future. But not in this election. I ahve listened to that man speak at length this year many times and it always comes back to being about Ralph Nader. That dude has got some real issues about himself. I apologise for sapelling and typing errors, where I am at does not have spell check. I am going back next door to the campaign office and tell these people that they are Republicans in drag working to elect Bush by working for Kerry cuz it is all the same thing. I wish some of you would say that to these people to their face. Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #231 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)