From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #222 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, May 14 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 222 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Kate's dad njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Songs are parents sung Njc ["Kate Bennett" ] parents ["Kate Bennett" ] NJC just busy ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation [Lori Fye ] Re: global warming njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation [cul ] Myrtle's contribution [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: therapists, NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Shameless self promotion (NJC) [Lori Fye ] Army Times NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Subject: Re: parents - Joni was a bad seed! [] Re: NJC maggie's comment [] Re: NJC maggie's comment [Lori Fye ] Re: the horror (njc) ["Martin Giles" ] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/now njc [Em ] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now njc [Em ] Re: Songs are parents sung Njc [Em ] re: all the HOSL stuff etc [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: learning/seeing, NJC [colin ] re: all the HOSL stuff etc [Em ] Re: all the HOSL stuff etc -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni Covers #31-40 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation [Lori Fye ] Re: Songs are parents sung Njc [Lori Fye ] Re: 100% JC: songs about women and/or men; HOSL [Lori Fye Subject: Kate's dad njc How Sweet! Sounds like your dad would love this list! Kate c>I was raving to my dad about Hejira and begging him to let me listen to his precious vinyls of FTR and HOSL. He sat me down and played me side 2, telling me he had been waiting all his life for someone to talk about Joni with after losing touch with the friend who introduced him to Joni. When talking about Harry's House he couldn't help shuddering at the 'horror' of it, brilliant though he thinks it is. It wasn't a parental warning, my dad is totally chilled, it was just a moment of connection I guess, seeing his daughter at the beginning of a journey he had once taken. He told me that when I was a baby he used to sing me to sleep with 'Barangrill' and 'Electricity'. I can't remember this at all, but I expect it is written deep on my soul and is part of the reason I love Joni so much.< Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:18:54 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Songs are parents sung Njc Cool new thread! What songs did your parents sing to you when you were little? I have a vivid early childhood memory of our whole family sitting on our stairs singing 'que sera sera' ... my mom used to play a uke & sing songs next to the stove while dinner cooked & sometimes burned, lol Kate C >He told me that when I was a baby he used to sing me to sleep with 'Barangrill' and 'Electricity'. > Smurf> ! Me, I was sung to sleep >with Tennessee Ernie singing "Sixteen Tons." > Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:27:41 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: parents Kate from the north >A friend who knows someone who knows Myrtle told me that Joni has been nothing but a disappointment to her mother. Is that not crazy?< Mom's & daughters have their issues but even so this is a bit shocking. And very sad. Not only for Joni but for Myrtle who is missing out on such a wonderful opportunity to feel joy & to love her daughter. My son has taken a different path than I ever expected but boy am I proud of him in so many ways. It takes letting go of control & having them meet YOUR expectations & seeing them for who they really are. A parent's challenge for sure. Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:01:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC just busy Buck>I saw something on the news that the "word" in the halls of the Pentagon used to describe those deranged individuals who took the photos is "the six idiots that lost the war."< The Red Cross report & information from an interview with John McCain (last night) both indicate that this thing is more widepread than just this one incident. Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:16:03 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation Em wrote: > OK all this talk of HOSL has got me thinking I have to have this CD. Ahem, Babe? You'll eventually have to have ALL of Joni's CDs. (For my 40th birthday my present to myself was all of JM's CDs that I didn't already have. It was expensive but one of the best gifts ever!) Jenny wrote: > I say go for it Em. For years and years, Hejira, was without a doubt my > 'desert-island' disc. Now HOSL gives it a run for the money. I have to agree. HOSL is my 2nd fave after Hejira, and I just swoon when I hear and "Edith and the Kingpin" and "Shades of Scarlet Conquering." Get the album, Em! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:28:08 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: learning/seeing, NJC Colin wrote: Kate's point about learning/seeing where the parents got their shit from-doesn't make a great deal of difference. It can make it worse-make it more incomprehensible. Kate wrote: It made a difference to me or I wouldn't have said it. It isn't some theory I made up, its something I found helpful. It may not work for everyone but that doesn't mean it might not for some. Hi Ya'll, I agree it could make it worse if the person learning/seeing doesn't want to deal with it or perhaps isn't ready. However, it has made a difference for me. Genetics and environment make us. So, in my opinion, the more I learn about my heritage, physical and psychological (including spiritual), the better I understand myself and can rise above the historical mistakes and genetic defects and grow in the successes. I've done a lot of this as an alcoholic daughter of an alcoholic mother. In a very real sense, learning about my mother's "shit" which she got from her parents has saved my life. If I hadn't seen myself repeating her patterns, I might not be in recovery right now. I've learned there is a lot in life I can't control, but I've also learned I can live life on life's terms and draw from powers greater than myself including my ancestry. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:38:19 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC just busy Buck wrote: > I saw something on the news that the "word" in the halls of the Pentagon used > to describe those deranged individuals who took the photos is "the six idiots > that lost the war." Kate responded: > The Red Cross report & information from an interview with John McCain (last > night) both indicate that this thing is more widepread than just this one > incident. Even if it weren't, it's ridiculous to try to pin the entire blame for these incidents on six relatively junior soldiers and/or civilians. It's the job of their commanders -- and their commanders' superiors -- to know what is happening in the field. And people talk too much in the military, particularly at remote and difficult assignments, partly because there is little else to do. (Buck, you know this first-hand, as do I.) So I find it VERY hard to believe that nobody up the chain of command knew anything. Someone, probably a LOT of someones, were neglectful of their duties. I think a whole bunch of people deserve a long stretch in Leavenworth. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:44:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: global warming njc --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: > Catherine writes: > > << Something that has lived 2000 years deserves to > live > to the end of its natural days. >> > > Sorta figures YOU'D feel that way, Catherine. > > XO, > > --Smurf Boo! Hiss!! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:46:03 -0400 From: cul Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation Em wrote: >OK all this talk of HOSL has got me thinking I have to have this CD. >Was wondering if, based on the other JM stuff I like, someone could >guess whether HOSL is gonna be one I like. >I gotta admit I'm having a hard time finding much joy in DJRD. >LOVE Hejira, LOVE Blue and the earlier stuff. >So given that I like those works, but am having a tough time with DJRD >(my shortcoming I'm sure) will I likely enjoy HOSL? or? >impossible to venture a guess? >thanks! >[snip] > Hi Em, Joni sez: "Write in your own blood." I have always listened to each new Joni album (or CD) in the same spirit. DJRD is a toughie for some folks because its often got a "let the rough side drag" attitude. To me it is one her spectacular achievements. My guess, based on the slightest of evidence of other titles you have an special affection for, is that you will find HOSL more instantly accessible. Aside from the exquisite orchestral poem of Paprika Plains, most of DJRD is new sonic landscape and contains a good deal of experimental mixing. The lyrics on DJRD is also tougher and more abstract in some ways than most of her albums. ["...and a country road came off the wall/and swooped down on the crowd at the bar..."]. HOSL is far more accessible in that each tune is really painted as a "story" or vignette...with the feel of punctuation at the end of lines and the melodies are more "whistle-able". So my bet is that you will like HOSL better sooner than DJRD. However, all of that will change over time and you will be as unable as the rest of us long time Joni addicts to prefer one of her sonic children over another in any serious way. cul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:46:04 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Myrtle's contribution "Mitchell credits her love of words to both her mother, Myrtle Anderson, who recited Shakespeare to Mitchell as she was growing up, and to a seventh grade teacher, Mr. Kratzman, who, upon learning of the young Mitchellbs love for painting, told her, bif you can paint with a brush then you can paint with words.b Poetry Magazine, Joni Mitchell, June-July 2000 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:47:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: therapists, NJC --- Em wrote: > --- Catherine McKay wrote: > > I wonder what > > Myrtle thinks about it - LOL! > > Is Myrtle her Mom? > so how does that relate to "six foot cliffs on > Myrtle's lawn"? Like the > lawn is a rocky place? > hmmmmmm.... > Em > LOL! Six-foot DRIFTS! That's Saskatoon in the winter! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:52:15 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Shameless self promotion (NJC) Oh Sherelle!! Wow. Thank you for the opportunity to listen to this, and to vote. Wow. (Please tell me you're coming to Jonifest this year!) Lori NP: "Eleanor Rigby" as performed by Sherelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:53:08 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Army Times NJC Excerpts from an Editorial from The Army Times: "Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war... But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons... But while responsibility begins with the six soldiers facing criminal charges, it extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership." http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2903288.php Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:01:19 -0400 From: Subject: Subject: Re: parents - Joni was a bad seed! Storekeepers (like Bill Anderson) and school teachers (like Myrtle Anderson) must have an orderly atmosphere. No one can sell lettuce or teach history in chaos. In that she popped out of the orderly environment, she probably disappointed her mum. But she was much loved, as witnessed by her confidence and her ability to see the turning point when her rebellious high school friends became criminals. I think she turned out "all right". Jim L'Hommedieu np: Emmylou Harris' "One Big Love" from the "RED DIRT GIRL", which has become a perennial favorite. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:07:59 -0400 From: Subject: Re: NJC maggie's comment Lori Fye, the instigator, said >Since the photographs of the abuses at Abu Graihb were released, the few folks on this list who usually write in support of Bush and his administration have been strangely silent.> Lori, I dont think youre trolling for a post from me but Ill take the bait anyway. :) I'm teasing. It's cool. My computer's been down. Where I live, we're pretty much all deeply disappointed in our military. It looks like the intelligence community has overrun the military prisons. I figured degrading tactics were probably being used at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and Afghanistan but using them in Iraq is totally wrong. The whole war is we're being lead by a guy who had good intentions and his best intentions got com*pletely* lost in the execution (pun intended). As I understand the phrase, President Bush is a fundamentalist Christian. He is on a crusade to clean up the Middle East. But we all know what happened during the Crusades, dont we? It wasnt pretty. It was wrong for Congress to authorize the President to use war powers against anyone other than al Qaeda. It was wrong for President Bush to put Iraq next to 911 every day for months (in press briefings) as we built up our armed forces for the invasion. It was wrong to run over Iraq just because they committed human rights abuses 10 years ago when they killed the Kurds. Iraq had kept a dramatically better house since then. I think we got it right when we swept Afghanistan for al-Qaeda and we should have stopped there. Abusive interrogations are not (and should not be) standard procedure for military prisons. I think they degrade prisoners to get them to lash out in anger. I think if someone has deep hatred for Americans (as al-Qaeda members do), they would scream it after they've abused by Americans for a few days. If, on the other hand, someone has no particular hatred for the US, after a week of abuse, they won't have much to say except to beg for mercy. These techniques are completely immoral except in the most extreme cases for a very, very small number of prisoners under very rash circumstances. Sick stuff like abuse happens on the West Bank all the time but both groups are native to the problem. When interrogating prisoners, no one could possibly argue that the Americans are inseparable from the situation. Our guards and interrogators were not victims of abuse by "the enemy". We sought out this conflict and we set the tone of those interrogations. In that way, we are worse than Palestinian martyrs; we are worse than the Israels border guards. Our prison guards were bullies, not victims seeking revenge. One last thought: a week ago it looked like the administration might hand over some regions to Sadr. Now it looks like were back to demonizing him again. I think its gonna get worse before it gets better, campers. Jim LHommedieu Covington, Kentucky PS, Cindy said, >I work for a VERY conservative group of folks, and what I'm hearing from them is that they'd love to be there in Iraq, at Abu Ghraib, "getting justice for 9/11" themselves. What I say to them falls on deaf ears - it appears that at least the people in my office (and I'm willing to bet they aren't all that unique, unfortunately) don't **care** that the Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11, but are willing to paint with a brush broad enough to hold the citizens of the whole freakin' continent responsible for the actions of a few.> Thats very disturbing, Cindy. Im glad you know that they are 'VERY conservative', meaning that they dont represent the mainstream. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:22:43 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC maggie's comment Jim wrote: > I dont think youre trolling for a post from me but Ill take the bait > anyway. :) I'm teasing. It's cool. You're right, Jim: I wasn't trolling for a post from you, but I'm damn glad you responded. That was one of the best political posts you've ever written, and I'm in agreement with nearly every word of it, with only a couple of exceptions. I have difficulty trusting that Bush has many good intentions, as least as I define good, so I won't agree that his intentions in starting this war were "good." And I have to disagree with your statement, "I figured degrading tactics were probably being used at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and Afghanistan but using them in Iraq is totally wrong," because there's no need to degrade anyone, ever. Americans in particular -- since we seem to think we've been chosen to set the proper example for the world to follow -- should be above that. Anyway, thanks for your excellent post. With lots of respect, Lori IMH: "Clinton lied; Monica cried. Bush lied; people died." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:26:56 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: the horror (njc) Hell Queen? That upstart from the South.? Never ! All right-thinking people repeat after me... There is no Queen but Lucy! There is no Queen but Lucy! There is no Queen but Lucy! There is no Queen but Lucy! There is no Queen but Lucy! There is no Queen but Lucy! Grrrrrrr... Martin. (From another planet?) > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:06:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: anne@sandstrom.com > Subject: Re: the horror (njc) > > OK, OK, you can be queen, Hell. Kiwis can rule the > world. > > lots of love > Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:03:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/now njc OK thanks so much, you all sweet people. Ordered cheap copies of HOSL, DJRD (on the outside chance it is the crummy pressing I have thats keeping me away) and STAS, just because, because, because I MISS it; having given away the shredded vinyl earlier this year, and cuz dammit its tattoo'ed on my brain since I was like 16. ;) So I'm pushing my boundaries a little, but still buying "sweets" to revert back to in case of the "feh" response. (I doubt "feh" will happen tho) thx again, Em Jenny wrote: > I say go for it Em. For years and years, Hejira, was without a > doubt my > > 'desert-island' disc. Now HOSL gives it a run for the money. > and Lori wrote: > I have to agree. HOSL is my 2nd fave after Hejira, and I just swoon > when I hear > and "Edith and the Kingpin" and "Shades of Scarlet Conquering." > > Get the album, Em! ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:18:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now njc Hi Cul thanks for that..it made alot of sense what you said. And your description of DJRD, yep I know what you mean. Very apt words to describe it. :) thanks Em ps so instead of what a "long strange trip its been"..its "what a long strange trip its gonna be"! hey I'm up for it..I like the sense of "future".. - --- cul wrote: > Em wrote: > > >OK all this talk of HOSL has got me thinking I have to have this CD. > >Was wondering if, based on the other JM stuff I like, someone could > >guess whether HOSL is gonna be one I like. > >I gotta admit I'm having a hard time finding much joy in DJRD. > >LOVE Hejira, LOVE Blue and the earlier stuff. > >So given that I like those works, but am having a tough time with > DJRD > >(my shortcoming I'm sure) will I likely enjoy HOSL? or? > >impossible to venture a guess? > >thanks! > >[snip] > > > Hi Em, > > Joni sez: "Write in your own blood." > > I have always listened to each new Joni album (or CD) in the same > spirit. > > DJRD is a toughie for some folks because its often got a "let the > rough > side drag" attitude. To me it is one her spectacular achievements. > My guess, based on the slightest of evidence of other titles you have > an > special affection for, is that you will find HOSL more instantly > accessible. > Aside from the exquisite orchestral poem of Paprika Plains, most of > DJRD > is new sonic landscape and contains a good deal of experimental > mixing. > The lyrics on DJRD is also tougher and more abstract in some ways > than > most of her albums. ["...and a country road came off the wall/and > swooped down on the crowd at the bar..."]. HOSL is far more > accessible > in that each tune is really painted as a "story" or vignette...with > the > feel of punctuation at the end of lines and the melodies are more > "whistle-able". So my bet is that you will like HOSL better sooner > than > DJRD. However, all of that will change over time and you will be as > unable as the rest of us long time Joni addicts to prefer one of her > sonic children over another in any serious way. > > cul ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:21:58 -0400 From: Subject: 100% JC: songs about women and/or men; HOSL Goodspeed, Here's my take on "Harry's House / Centerpiece" but just remember- you asked for it. "Centerpiece" is part of Joni's literary masterpiece, "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns". She's talking about the Big Themes of life on this album. Her take is that families are a shallow existence for those caught up in Corporate America. She could have used the word "plastic" but by 1975, when Harry's House was copywritten, it was a cliche. Have you ever seen paper dolls? What could possibly be a better metaphor for something shallow than paper? "Paper wives and their paper kids paper the walls to keep their gut re*act*ions hid." Did you ever notice that she breaks up the syllables there? Shes a genius about putting amazingly great lines of summation just before an instrumental break. It gives you time to mull it over, to see into the metaphor, to savor the juices. This isnt ' Dance dance dance. Lets make some ro- mance. ' Harry's life is as shallow as wallpaper and the only thing keeping him from coming unglued is a daydream of a simpler time- the poolside memory of the perfect, air-brushed angel. The production effects put the listener inside his daydream. It is the aural equivalent to a wavy flashback effect in film. His memory of the pool leads logically to the first few memories of setting up house together. That part is 'Centerpiece'. Joni had it in her head for decades by 1975 and she used it skillfully, when it would be most appropriate and powerful. Its not a gratuitous 'take' on Annie Ross wedged in there. She needed a 'quote' from an idealistic time. She could have used 'Why Dont Fools Fall In Love' but she didnt intend to make you laugh. She intended to invoke fuzzy idealism. She didnt use the whole song because the point was not to 'cover' one of Annies songs; the point was to quote Annie's idealism. Like a collagist, she scaled each piece of the album skillfully because *The Whole* is the thing. Do you remember the liner notes where shes talking about the mysterious whole that she wont unravel for anyone? THOSL is a collage and 'Centerpiece' is an element of it. In the narrative, Harry is in a wistful dream when he calls his wife. Instead of solace he gets a dose of the Mess back home. Centerpieces optimism is absolutely necessary to setup the jolt of reality during the call. It is also an indispensible setup for the sucker punch at the end. 'Centerpiece' perfectly illustrates Harrys reflection. Like the rest of THOSL, this is a master stroke, made when she was exploring some of the biggest themes. To me, 'Centerpiece' is a profoundly appropriate choice. Sincerely, Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY, US Jenny Goodspeed said, >Harry's House has really captivated me for the last year or so, and so I am really enjoying reading your takes on it Kate and Bruce. In addition to being indoctrinated with ideas about materialism, I think they are also trapped by traditional roles as husband (businessman, bread-winner) and wife (house and garden). I'm curious what you or anyone else thinks of Centerpiece - does it add to the story for you? Do you see the transition as disjointed or appropriate. Musically speaking, I wish it wasn't there - but I do love the effects Joni uses to move in and out of Centerpiece. gives it a real sense it's a flashing backwards in time. Maybe this it's all kind of obvious, but I've always wondered what lead Joni to add that section - breaking up the flow of Harry's House.> Jenny Goodspeed said, >Harry's House has really captivated me for the last year or so, and so I am really enjoying reading your takes on it Kate and Bruce. In addition to being indoctrinated with ideas about materialism, I think they are also trapped by traditional roles as husband (businessman, bread-winner) and wife (house and garden). I'm curious what you or anyone else thinks of Centerpiece - does it add to the story for you? Do you see the transition as disjointed or appropriate. Musically speaking, I wish it wasn't there - but I do love the effects Joni uses to move in and out of Centerpiece. gives it a real sense it's a flashing backwards in time. Maybe this it's all kind of obvious, but I've always wondered what lead Joni to add that section - breaking up the flow of Harry's House.> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Songs are parents sung Njc When I was a small child, my Mom sang me "Venus"..venus, ohh veeeenusssssss... and also bunches of Harry Belafonte..I remember "Your Daddy Can't be Ugly So", aactually I thinkits called "Mama Look at BooBoo". lol my older grandmother used to sing "K K K Katie" and "Columbia the Gem of the Ocean"..also "Over There". Oh yeah my mom also used to rip it up on "Jambalaya" (on the bayou). Fun thread! will have to remind my mom, who is responsible for my tendency when in doubt to err to the "country" side, but who listens to jazz and has been a Diana Krall fan for LONG time. Em - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > Cool new thread! What songs did your parents sing to you when you > were > little? > > I have a vivid early childhood memory of our whole family sitting on > our > stairs singing 'que sera sera' ... my mom used to play a uke & sing > songs next to the stove while dinner cooked & sometimes burned, lol > > Kate C >He told me that when I was a baby he used to sing me to sleep > with 'Barangrill' and 'Electricity'. > > > Smurf> ! Me, I was sung to sleep >with Tennessee Ernie singing > "Sixteen > Tons." > > > Kate > www.katebennett.com > "bringing the melancholy world of > twilight to life almost like magic" > The All Music Guide ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:02:36 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: re: all the HOSL stuff etc Wow. All this Joni content is making me dizzy. kate wrote: > He sat me down and played me side 2, telling me > he had been waiting all his life for someone to talk about Joni with > after losing touch with the friend who introduced him to Joni. This is so cool. I don't really know, of course, but your relationship with your dad seems so great. On both sides. (insert 'now' here.) He takes the time and makes the effort to share what has been important to him. And you take the time and the make the effort to appreciate something that to many people your age is ancient history. Lot of empathy there. (Maybe your dad would like to join this list.) Being 21 in 2003 and being 21 in 1975 is a difference I can't really imagine. I would think it rare for many of your peers to be much interested in this music. (If I was 22 now, what would I be listening to? I don't know.) I can appreciate relatively new artists like Wilco and Ryan Adams because their music is to a large extent an extension of the music from 30 years ago. The only new form to emerge since then has been hip-hop/rap, which I don't enjoy. (I don't count electronica/techno because it doesn't have words.) If I was 22 today, I would like to think that I would be on the 'cutting edge' of my peer group. But I don't know where that edge really is, and there's no reason why I should because it's not 'my generation.' and then Jenny wrote: > I'm curious what you or anyone else thinks of Centerpiece - > does it add to the story for you? >Do you see the transition as > disjointed or appropriate. Centerpiece is the centerpiece, figuratively and literally. Listening to it last night I agree with Hell's take: > It seems to me that the inclusion of >> Centrepiece is to illustrate what he thought married life would be like, Another 'dream some of us had.' It's only in being able to look at her whole body of work that the theme of expectations vs. actual outcomes can be seen as one of her big concerns. Hejira takes this even further. Centerpiece puts the poignancy into the song; and the retro feeling lets her be ironic and heartfelt at the same time. then Em wrote: > Was wondering if, based on the other JM stuff I like, someone could > guess whether HOSL is gonna be one I like. You bet! Hissing is the absolute best! It's got everything --(soft) rock n roll, jungle drums, early synth, cocaine use, pitch-perfect stories, ennobling anthems, Henri Rousseau, bloodied barbed wire, and Bloomingdales. Who could ask for anything more? Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:36:27 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: learning/seeing, NJC LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: >Colin wrote: >Kate's point about learning/seeing where the parents got their >shit from-doesn't make a great deal of difference. It can make it >worse-make it more incomprehensible. > >Kate wrote: > >It made a difference to me or I wouldn't have said it. It isn't some >theory I made up, its something I found helpful. It may not work for >everyone but that doesn't mean it might not for some. > >Hi Ya'll, > > I agree it could make it worse if the person learning/seeing doesn't want >to deal with it or perhaps isn't ready. > Not always the case. It often has nothing at all do with denial or not being ready. It is just a simple fact. Knowing that a perp was 'done to' as well makes nothing alright or accpetable or understandable. > However, it has made a difference >for me. Genetics and environment make us. So, in my opinion, the more I learn >about my heritage, physical and psychological (including spiritual), the >better I understand myself and can rise above the historical mistakes and genetic >defects and grow in the successes. > This is good and the right to go. It is obvious to me that if part of what you learn is about an illness that caused a behaviour, that can only help. If you suffered because your(general your not meaning you) 'carer' was say, a paranoid shizophrenic or some such, knowing and understanding that would make a great deal difference to one's healing. It is not the same when people who choose to abuse do so as a way of venting and not because they are mentally ill. Fortunately there are good therapits who recognize this fact, and allow those they help to see and heal from it without trying to silence their voice with calls for forgiveness or understanding. They recognize that is not a neceasary part of healing and is often a way of avoiding issues. They also recognize that the rush of people calling for victims to forgive is just another way of trying to force silence upon them-for their benefit rather than any genuine concern for the persons involved. Despite appearing to be cponcerned and 'right on', they would really rather it was not discussed. > If I hadn't seen >myself repeating her patterns, I might not be in recovery right now. > A good example of how seeing a bigger picture can be of enourmous benefit. Years ago, when struggling with the idea of forgiveness, i spoke with a 'spiritual advisor', man of the cloth, much to my surprise, but I was desperate. The answer i got was not what i expected! He asked me if I thought I was God. Of course not i replied. Then why are you trying to do his job? huh? Having heard my story, he simply said I was asking too much of myself. i didn't get him then and was disappointed, to say the least,that he hadn't given me the magic answer. In time I came to realise he had. I can't give a simple slogan answer to what i did. over time. However, not a day goes by I do not feel relief and gratitude that I am no longer in the power of the people who hurt me. They no longer live in my head nor do they affect my daily life. i am free of them. That does not mean i don't still have the occasional flashback or night terror. But they are short lived and more easily dealt with and further apart. I have no hatred in my heart for them. I give them little thought. Do i wish them well? yes. i hope that one day they are free of their own demons. Do i want to see them? no. Do i feel sad for them? yes. I couldn't live with myself if i had done what they did. No matter what the denial, they still know. Do i want anyting from them? nothing. Do i need anything from them? Not a thing. I am free-what more could I want? I have no fanciful ideas about my life back then. it was hard and cruel and almost intolerable. it very nearly killed me. the point is it didn't. i survived and now live free. really live. I can't undo what happened. I don't think it happened for 'a reason'. I don't think it made me stronger. i don't think I was 'meant' to have those experiences. I don't think it was part of any plan. I think without it I could have been able to develop in different ways, perhaps I could ahve used my good brain to have been a vet or something. It didn't happen that way. And it doesn't matter. i am happy, content, grateful for the life I have now. I am loved, i have good friends of long standing, I have a great life materially. My spiritual life is rewarding and exciting. Life in general is exceellent, so much more than i ever expected or even thought possible. So my physical health is not too hot. Better than being dead. That is more than many people ever have. So do I waste my time trying to underatdn these people? Pitying them? Trying to find a way to make it okay? No i don't .not my job . Most importantly, it doesn't matter. It has passed, gone, over with. One can only rehash and relive so mcuh before one really has to just let it go. Why used to such an importnat question in relation to this. Not any more. I once had a broken arm and leg. tehy got fixed. i ddin't spend my time analysing the hows and whys it they got broken and insisting 'they ' fixed. if I had, i'd be limping with a one useless arm! No I wnt about the business of healing and now have a good leg and arm. How rthey got broken, who was to blame are no more than facts. It was my job to have them fixed. Same as it was my job to get 'me' fixed as best i could. Fortunately for me, I recognized that fact whilst still in my teens. unfotunately becuase of the BPD and and lack of therapists who knew how to help, it took a long time. But it happened. So yes, blaming in the sens eof sitting around and moaning and not fixing isa waste of time and doesn't get one anywahere. Or blaming the way one deals with stuff on the perp is also not on. blame the perp for the anguish, the pain, the fear, the grief, the direct results of their actions. That blame belongs with them. To blame them for your beehaviour as an adult is not honest and will not help in recovery. i.e. if you shoot up as a way to deal with the pain, that cannot be blamed on anyone. That is the way you chose to deal witht he pain. I wouldn't suggest you balmne yourself either-won't help. Accept repsonsibilty and find another way to deal with the pain. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:32:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: re: all the HOSL stuff etc - --- Bruce Kimerer wrote: > You bet! Hissing is the absolute best! It's got everything --(soft) > rock n > roll, jungle drums, early synth, cocaine use, pitch-perfect stories, > ennobling anthems, Henri Rousseau, bloodied barbed wire, and > Bloomingdales. > Who could ask for anything more? wow you got me drooling now. Can't wait! Great description Bruce! You paint with broad and vivid strokes! ahh Rousseau, the border guard who painted jungle animals peeking from the leaves..love it! :D Someone mentioned HOSL falls between CAS and Hejira, so if its in anyway the gradient that joins them, then its bound to be great. Just spoke with my Mom, who explained to me there is some song on the "Both Sides Now" CD that she heard during a show on Joni on PBS that she loves and simply must have. But she doesn't know what it is. So I gave her Bob's advice of going on Amazon.com to check out the cuts. This is pretty cool now, connecting with mom on this stuff. Told her about ya'll. :) Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:52:18 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: all the HOSL stuff etc -- NJC Em writes: << This is pretty cool now, connecting with mom on this stuff. Told her about ya'll. >> Excuse me, Em, but none of us have ever told our parents about this. What you did is just so unbelievably uncool. I hope your mother's not a talker. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:29:14 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers #31-40 Hi to all, Well, I finally made copies of the ten covers discs #31-40 and, as per the rules governing this vine, I'm now offering the originals to the next person striving to acquire all of Bob's monumental 50 + discs of Joni covers. (This MUST be a record in itself, Bob... I'll bet no other fan of any artist has done something this comprehensive. If so, I'll love to know "who" and "what"). The first person who contacts me by email gets 'em, including the disc with all the titles of all the songs on all the discs PLUS some nifty "extras" of some non-joni concert footage. I'm currently seeking any of the other packages of discs so I can fill in those I'm missing. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:40:16 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation Em wrote: > ps so instead of what a "long strange trip its been"..its "what a long > strange trip its gonna be"! hey I'm up for it..I like the sense of > "future".. For me, this is absolutely the best part of being on this list! I love knowing that my friends (new and old) are discovering gems of Joni's for the first time, and I look forward to reading and hearing y'all's "takes" on your new treasures. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:46:05 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: re: all the HOSL stuff etc - njc The always wonderful Bruce wrote: > Hissing is the absolute best! It's got everything --(soft) rock n roll, > jungle drums, early synth, cocaine use, pitch-perfect stories, ennobling > anthems, Henri Rousseau, bloodied barbed wire, and Bloomingdales. > Who could ask for anything more? And BLOOMINGDALES? Oh Bruce, it takes a "family" man to remember to mention that! LOL ... Sister Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:53:44 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Songs are parents sung Njc Kate wrote: > Cool new thread! What songs did your parents sing to you when you were little? Ooh, I'll play! "Ida Sweet As Apple Cider" was a favorite, especially since my mom's name was Ida. And "Oh, Where have you been Billy Boy?" (go here, but turn your speakers down or it will scare the heck outta ya: http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Cottage/3192/Billyboy.html) I think my grandma used to sing that to me, although Mom did too, probably because my dad was Bill and my brother was Billy. Mom was also a big fan of the McGuire Sisters and sang lots of their stuff to me. Lori NPIMH: "HE" by the McGuire Sisters ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:05:41 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: 100% JC: songs about women and/or men; HOSL Bravo, Jim! Excellent post. > Joni had it in her head for decades by 1975 and she used it skillfully, when > it would be most appropriate and powerful. And Joni married it so well with the theme of living an empty life with an shallow wife, which had been stuck in her head at least since "The Arrangement." "You're the keeper of the cards Yes I know it gets hard Keeping the wheels turning And the wife she keeps the keys She is so pleased to be A part of the arrangement" http://www.jmdl.com/lyrics/TheArrangement.cfm Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:29:05 EDT From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Re: Gilda as Candy njc In a message dated 5/8/04 7:07:03 PM, nyro_in_detroit@sbcglobal.net writes: << My favorite was Roseanne Roseannadanna.>> Oh god, me too! Do you remember the one (I think it was the last appearance of Roseanne Roseannadanna, before Gilda, Jane and Laraine left the show in '80) in which Gloria Vanderbilt, who had worn an overtight pair of her own designer jeans to some fancy affair and then developed an itch in a place one couldn't scratch in public... "So me and Jessica Savitch brought her into the ladies' room, and I gave Gloria Vanderbilt my hairbrush and said, 'Here, Gloria! Have a field day!!!' " Ah, the good old days. <> I remember that, and I also remember my first exposure to Kate Bush on SNL (I think she was all of 18 or 19), and also Joan Armatrading and so many others!... God, Betamax! I think one of my lovers in the '80's had one, and all he had to play on it was porn... Jeesh, from Roseanne Roseannadanna to beta porn in one e-mail -- can I ramble like an old geezer, or what? Hugs, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:19:03 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: May 14 On May 14 the following articles were published: 1970: "Joni Mitchell's New Album Will Mean More To Some Than To Others" - Rolling Stone (Advertisement) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=294 2000: "Joni Mitchell reveals new side at LA concert" - Dallas Morning News (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=506 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #222 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)