From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #211 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, May 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 211 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Bob service njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc [SCJoniGuy@ao] Re: NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni Mitchell wrote more than just love songs ["tantra-apso" ] Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: gore and iraq NJC ["anon anon" ] Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown [Emiliano ] RE: gore and iraq NJC ["anon anon" ] RE: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: gore and iraq NJC [Em ] Re: gore and iraq NJC [Emiliano ] Re: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc ["tantra-apso" ] Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: gore and iraq NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: gore and iraq NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: njc news takes me up short [Catherine McKay ] Re: gore and iraq NJC [Lori Fye ] RE: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc ["Kate Bennett" Subject: Bob service njc >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:20:43 -0400 >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Subject: Re: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 1-10 of JM Covers >**Err... not exactly: the order for the songs in the "Joni Covers List.doc" >I'm seeing right now is alphabetical like the list in the JMDL website. >Well, if you want the MS Word files for those, just say so. >You know I'm at your service and always having a wonderful >time! >Bob Bob's at our service . . . . and he's having a wonderful time. hmmmm. _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 06:53:48 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc And don't forget another genuine pinhead, Cal Thomas, who always manages to make my eyes roll aound. His editorial this morning states that we can't judge these soldiers who tortured the Iraqi prisoners until we put in context, implying that the prisoners did something to bring that kind of treatment on themselves. And on the Senate floor, there were some demands for Rumsfeld's resignation. Hopefully all of these little things will continue to tumble the administrations little house of cards. In other news, Andre from Outkast has stepped up and said that he hasn't voted in the past but it is going to do so now. Hopefully since he is so high-profile, lots of young voters will follow his lead. It's all going to be about voter turnout. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:08:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > And don't forget another genuine pinhead, Cal > Thomas, who always manages to > make my eyes roll aound. His editorial this morning > states that > we can't judge these soldiers who tortured the Iraqi > prisoners until we put > in context, implying that the prisoners did > something to bring that kind of > treatment on themselves. Oh, like the women that do something to make men rape them; or the children that do something to make their parents abuse them; or the kids that get picked on at school that make bullies pick on them? Give me a break! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 13:20:57 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 1-10 of JM Covers Hi, folks! Just a note to tell you that the Volumes 1-10 of JM Covers (plus the Let's Sing Out show) is already in its way to Laurent, in Paris. Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 08:08:38 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc Bob writes: << And don't forget another genuine pinhead, Cal Thomas, who always manages to make my eyes roll aound. >> We have a Boston pinhead, too. Ours is a radio host named Jay Severin, and he happens to be in trouble at the moment for a comment he made a few weeks ago about Arabs in the US: "I say we kill all the Muslims." He is now going through all kinds of contortions to defend himself and explain what he "really" meant, but I hope we're going to be free of his daily horseshit soon. Although I can respect conservative views on lots of things, my empathy stops at hatred. When Americans on the Right, and Republicans in general, complain that they are often smeared with racist and other labels, they need to realize that their "big tent" houses some of the most odious Cretans since Nazism. Bob also writes: << Hopefully all of these little things will continue to tumble the administrations little house of cards. >> Amen to that. Seems to me I can remember a little over a year ago liberals were saying that Iraq would turn into a huge mess, and it has. How is it that the pinheads that have stolen the Oval Office couldn't see that? It is a beautiful day here in Boston, but like every day lately, there is a pall cast on it because my country is once again at war with innocent people. And once again my fellow Americans are mostly blind to the evil that is being done in our name. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:13:26 -0400 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Another Joni cover! I don't think this has been commented on yet, although I could be wrong. In any case, here's today's review in the Guardian of Terri Lyne Carrington's new album... << The much-caricatured grandiloquence of drummers has fuelled plenty of gags across the music business, but when jazz drummers lead their own bands, the outcome is often anything but a vanity project. [snip] Terri Lyne Carrington, a drum prodigy since her early teens who has supported jazz colossi including Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, has rarely been tempted by leadership. A 1988 Verve album and 2001's dedication to her influences, Jazz Is a Spirit, are the sole contenders, but on the evidence of her incisive musical direction of the recent Billie Holiday tribute at the Barbican and this intelligent, economical quartet set, Carrington is on the verge of an expanded career. [Snip] Carrington sings on the only imported track, Joni Mitchell's political anthem Ethiopia, and she makes an unpretentiously eloquent job of it. Osby's deadpan-funky Facets Squared zigzags steadily on in counterpoint with the guitar and the minimal-melody Fire features the kind of stunning percussion momentum for which the leader is so widely admired. A few longueurs and one or two uneventful tunes, but mostly very impressive. >> Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 10:08:35 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Another Joni cover! I just got that CD ("Structure") this week, Azeem. It's very cool for a lot of reasons: - - Carrington is a percussionist, and the entire CD is bebop jazz, with no vocals except for this track. - - This is the first DED cover that I'm aware of, hopefully we'll see more. There are some good songs on that album which deserve to be done without the glossy cheesy production that Klein & Dolby put on them. - -Greg Osby plays sax on Carrington's CD, and he was probably a driver in the tune making the disc, because when I saw him at "Wall to Wall JM" in NYC he played Ethiopia & Tax Free. Ethiopia has always been my favorite track on DED (I sang it last year at the Fest, thanks to Robert Holliston) so I'm delighted that it's the first DED cover to emerge. The CD is available from CD Universe at a reasonable price, or from Amazon at an exorbitant one. Or perhaps a local shop. And if you can hold out, the track will kick off Volume 59 which will debut in November... Thanks to you & everyone who helps bubble these recordings to the surface! Bob NP: Bruce, "Raise Your Hand" 12/15/78 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:13:10 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Another Joni cover! -- NJC I have read this post over and over again and I can't for the life of me figure out what it has to do with the war in Iraq, the American presidential elections, or abortion. Am I missing something? - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:14:04 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: njc news takes me up short Dear Vince, What a touching and heartfelt story! You wrote this with so much feeling and love! I feel like I know Amy and her son S. It's hard to know what to say about them, and especially about Amy. I start wondering, "what put her on her course to self destruction? What makes us feel that we no longer have a choice in life? What makes us give up sometimes?" I think about Amy and wonder what was she thinking or feeling. It makes me reaffirm in my heart the fraility of the human spirit and how easily it can be broken. It doesn't matter who we are or what we do in life. The human spirit is the most precious thing we own as well as the most fragile. I love Sting's song "Fragile": "On and on the rain will fall Like tears from a star, like tears from a star... On and on the rain will say How fragile we are How fragile we are How fragile we are...." This is why I am so careful about what I say to my dear friends here. Your spirits are most precious to me and I must always weigh whether or not what I say is worth the risk of breaking someone's spirit. Someone broke Amy's a long time before her death. Some people are stronger than others emotionally. Where others bounce back, there are some who just break. Amy broke..... Love, Sherelle Vince wrote: I worked at Catholic Family Services with families with children in foster care. One client, Amy, was a person who you just knew would never pull it together. Her son S was very special to me, he was very afraid of his mother's boyfriend and every time I transported S to visits he would tell me of how mom's bf beat the shit out of her and him and the baby. We worked hard to give S a sense of a normal life. I took him to the Air Zoo and other places like an A&W root beer stand he had never been, to experience some life as a regular kid does. And what was tough knowing that despite S's best wishes his mother Amy was never going to get off the drugs and get it together, that she would never be a mother to him. I liked Amy though, she was a nice person with a huge weakness she could not control. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 13:19:39 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kurdistan, NJC Patrick wrote: << criticism of the 'attack' on kakki acknowledged and accepted. i particularly would hate to have people lose sight of the fact that my post was about the kurds. >> Your use of quote marks suggests to me that you don't *really* consider your remarks to have been an attack, just a bit intemperate. Words like "clueless" and "drooling" don't read any other way to me. << azeem and colin, i do not accept the position that the frequency of my attacks on kakki is an issue, for the sad reason that 90% of her wildest political claims on this list go by without me or anyone else challenging her. you wouldn't want to see truly frequent attacks, and i wouldn't want to waste my time. >> This is a bit like a thief saying in court "OK Yr Honour, I stole a couple of car stereos, but come on, just consider the hundreds, nay thousands, that I could have stolen but didn't." It doesn't change the nasty taste in my mouth at what is clearly (OK, clearly to me) a personal attack. I also think you must be overlooking the many, many posts in which I and others have vigorously disagreed with Kakki on any number of political issues. To paint yourself as the lone voice is frankly ludicrous. Still, you're quite right that I wouldn't want to see more frequent attacks. That would truly make the list an uglier place. For what it's worth, I'd be happy to see *fewer* attacks, and I suspect I'm not the only one. << but indeed, colin, catherine and azeem, i should have challenged her directly on the "what about clinton bombing iraq" comment at the time since it was a wrongheaded criticism of clinton's actions in the situation. and in more temperate language, rather than, as azeem so aptly described it 'mugging' her, and i think, anyone who was reading the post. not good behaviour. i apologize. >> This reads like an apology to Colin, Catherine and me, rather than the person to whom (in my opinion) the apology would be more appropriately addressed. Azeem in London NP: Butterfly Boucher - Never Leave Your Heart Alone ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:49:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc > And on the Senate floor, there were some demands for Rumsfeld's resignation. Hopefully all of these little things will continue to tumble the administrations little house of cards. he creeped me out from the first moment he went on the air after 9/11... he does not seem human... i remember writing about that here & someone jumping all over me for my impressions (someone who i don't think is still on this list) ... > In other news, Andre from Outkast has stepped up and said that he hasn't voted in the past but it is going to do so now. Hopefully since he is so high-profile, lots of young voters will follow his lead. It's all going to be about voter turnout. hooray for him! the young have so much at stake in this election & i hope many more will get involved... its amazing how so many kids don't vote- they see the parties as the same or at least they have in the past... i can remember not waiting to vote! the young vote can make a huge difference... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:20:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc Bob>Amen to that. Seems to me I can remember a little over a year ago liberals were saying that Iraq would turn into a huge mess, and it has. How is it that the pinheads that have stolen the Oval Office couldn't see that? It is a beautiful day here in Boston, but like every day lately, there is a pall cast on it because my country is once again at war with innocent people. And once again my fellow Americans are mostly blind to the evil that is being done in our name. < I feel so much the same way bob... A lot of experienced people warned us not to attack, it wasn't just a bunch of liberals who don't believe in war... I know how you feel... there is such a disconnect between my own peaceful life & the horrors going on overseas that weigh heavy in my heart(including the horrors going on right here among those who defend or make light of this situation) So, my motto these days is your either with them or against them (haha she laughs weakly)... Meaning the dark forces of war, terrorism, hatred, racism... Our administration is clearly working for the dark side... I am again reminded that not all who appear to be human are actually human... There are alien mutants among us in high places... It feels like the evolution of human conciousness & compassion is in retrograde right now... Both the true majority website & the kerry website have email petitions you can sign for rumsfeld's resignation... Its something easy to do to make your voice heard on this subject... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:33:36 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: FW: Thanks for working to get rid of Rumsfeld NJC To tell your senators and representative that they should press for Rumsfeld to either resign or be fired (text below), just click this link: http://action.truemajority.com/index.asp?action=10169&ms=rum4 Then please forward this message to anyone else you know who's embarrassed by this man. Thanks, Ben Here is the letter we will send to your senators and representative: Dear Senator/Representative: I urge you to press for Secretary Rumsfeld to either resign or be fired. First he used his special Pentagon intelligence sources to tell us that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction were an imminent threat and so we had to go to war. Then he told us that his Pentagon planners were sure that the war would be fast and cheap. Now he is telling us that if those under him in the chain of command committed acts of torture, well, it's not his fault. Nobody who has made this many lethal mistakes should be the head of the deadliest force humanity ever created, the United States armed forces. Sincerely, (We'll put your name and address here.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 21:40:53 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: NJC Re: RLh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc Hi, Kate! I'm sure yours is a *young vote*, and it will be for year and years to come My hair will go greyer and thinnier, seasons will come and season will go, and yours still will be a *very young vote* We love you, girl, Keep on rocking (the way you do!) and yes, the vote from the young people (the ones who're still in their 18-20something) really does some difference, ask me (or any other proud spaniard on list about it) Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano, still disgusted by reading about that RL's (I won't write his name) statement... and drowning himself in a sea-love of Joni Covers! NP: Both Sides Now, I really don't know... (after an Albarinho's bottle) PS: I can understand (and I really trust) your impression about Rumsfeld's appearance: anyone who's got a nerve would be ... impressed about *it* (is he human, anyway?) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Kate Bennett" Para: ; ; ; Enviado: viernes, 07 de mayo de 2004 20:49 Asunto: RE: NJC Re: rush limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc > > And on the Senate floor, there were some demands for Rumsfeld's > resignation. Hopefully all of these little things will continue to > tumble the administrations little house of cards. > > he creeped me out from the first moment he went on the air after 9/11... > he does not seem human... i remember writing about that here & someone > jumping all over me for my impressions (someone who i don't think is > still on this list) ... > > > In other news, Andre from Outkast has stepped up and said that he > hasn't voted in the past but it is going to do so now. Hopefully since > he is so high-profile, lots of young voters will follow his lead. It's > all going to be about voter turnout. > > hooray for him! the young have so much at stake in this election & i > hope many more will get involved... its amazing how so many kids don't > vote- they see the parties as the same or at least they have in the > past... i can remember not waiting to vote! the young vote can make a > huge difference.. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:11:52 -0400 From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: Joni Mitchell wrote more than just love songs Joni did write more than just silly love songs. She wrote songs to question War Drugs Racism Sexual Abuse Etc. Now that Joni has stopped touring and releasing new song (1966-2002 The best part of my life) I think carrying on her concerns through this list totally right on!.Other lists on artists web site usally have topics with more narrow concerns but this one is much more free. Brian in love with Joni since 1968 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 13:35:31 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: NJC Re: RLh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc Emiliano>Hi, Kate! I'm sure yours is a *young vote*, and it will be for year and years to come My hair will go greyer and thinnier, seasons will come and season will go, and yours still will be a *very young vote*< Young at heart, yes always! >and yes, the vote from the young people (the ones who're still in their 18-20something) really does some difference, ask me (or any other proud spaniard on list about it)< You should be proud! Your country is an inspiration to me! Power to the people! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:05:10 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown By Rod Nickel Saskatoon StarPhoenix May 7, 2004 The Joni Mitchell Centre may become south downtown's star attraction under a proposal quietly taking shape outside of the limelight. It would be the name of a cultural complex pencilled into the city's development plan for the west side of the Gathercole site. The new Persephone Theatre would be the main occupant, along with a 1,000-2,500-square-foot room dedicated to Mitchell's career. If built, the theatre complex may become the focal point of an annual Joni Mitchell International Music Festival. Ron Lamb, a family friend of the musician and artist, and Tourism Saskatoon official Randy Fernets are spearheading the project. Mitchell, her Saskatoon parents and Persephone, which is meeting with the city about its plans, have expressed tentative interest. The Mitchell room may include a visual timeline of her musical and artistic development. Don't call it a museum, though. "This is a living kind of thing," Lamb said. "It's exciting. "My bottom line is just to do something for Joni and her parents. I've been to the Buddy Holly Centre (in Lubbock, Tex.) and thought, 'Why don't we have a Joni Mitchell Centre?' " Other cities have capitalized on homegrown musical talent. A theatre is named after Burton Cummings in Winnipeg and a centre with memorabilia and outfits honours Shania Twain in Timmins, Ont. Mitchell, 60, was born in Fort Macleod, Alta. Her family moved to Maidstone, then North Battleford after the Second World War. When she was nine years old, they moved to Saskatoon. "She's got recognition worldwide -- a great following of fans," Fernets said, adding it's no stretch to expect Mitchell's name and memorabilia to draw fans from the U.S. and overseas. "Living here in Saskatchewan, we don't realize how successful she is around the world." An exhibition of her artwork at the Mendel Art Gallery proved a huge draw in 2000. The idea of a centre honouring Mitchell appeals to her mother, Myrtle Anderson. She's already picturing childhood photographs of her daughter, a chalkboard she sketched on and 40 scrapbooks about her career in the centre. "It's a nice idea. I'd be proud, I guess. It's a strange thing. Joni is so down to earth. You'd never think of her as a celebrity. She's just Joni." Mitchell isn't conducting interviews on any topic, her agent told The StarPhoenix. Lamb raised the idea with Mitchell last summer, when the singer visited her parents in Saskatoon. "She doesn't want something that's a static display," Lamb said. "She wants it more dynamic -- music playing, maybe a quartet from the symphony. A total cultural experience." The music festival would fit well in early July, Fernets said, when tourist numbers temporarily dip. It would be an ideal celebration for the city's 2006 centennial, perhaps featuring a performance by Mitchell, he said. Anderson said she mailed her daughter the city's south downtown plan, but hasn't heard her opinion. Mayor Don Atchison said he initially likes the potential Mitchell's name and career has to boost south downtown's appeal, but said it's too early to say which ideas will make the final draft of a city plan. The Mitchell centre may have other occupants as well. Meewasin Valley Authority is considering whether to move and expand its interpretive centre from Third Avenue South to the site. Persephone expects its two-stage theatre to cost $6 million to build, in time for a September 2005 opening. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:25:35 +0200 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: gore and iraq NJC 'a voting citizen' said: > I replied that that argument was now three years old and that if Gore was elected > president we would not be in Iraq That's just laughable. I will not defend Bush, but for fucks sake, Gore would have brought America to war just as well -- Kakki is seldom right, but Clinton did bomb Iraq to pieces when your friend Al Gore was vice president. The differences between Gore and Kerry - when it comes to foreign policy - will be petite. But by the time we can judge Kerry you will have forgotten, like you have forgotten how right wing Clinton's policies were and how he bombed Iraqw to pieces. paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:37:30 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell wrote more than just love songs Perhaps Joni would be very pleased that the people who appreciate her work also care so much about the world and what goes on as she seems to. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:11 PM Subject: Joni Mitchell wrote more than just love songs > Joni did write more than just silly love songs. She wrote songs to question War Drugs Racism Sexual Abuse Etc. Now that Joni has stopped touring and releasing new song (1966-2002 The best part of my life) I think carrying on her concerns through this list totally right on!.Other lists on artists web site usally have topics with more narrow concerns but this one is much more free. > Brian in love with Joni since 1968 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:48:58 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown At 03:05 PM 5/7/2004 -0600, Les Irvin wrote: >By Rod Nickel - Saskatoon StarPhoenix - May 7, 2004 >The Joni Mitchell Centre may become south downtown's star attraction under a >proposal quietly taking shape outside of the limelight. Fantastic news, Les. What a great tribute this would be. As the years fly by I find myself wanting more and more to leave some sort of legacy. Now I don't know how Joni personally feels about this; has her career of performing/recording, writing, and painting left her with enough? If not, a venue such as the one proposed should certainly make her feel that her accomplishments are recognized and will be remembered, and that must surely be validating and comforting. Here's hoping this thing happens! Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 09:51:54 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown From the article Les posted: > If built, the theatre complex may become the focal point of an annual Joni > Mitchell International Music Festival. Oh, you think so do you? I've got news for you buddy - there's a little thing called Jonifest, which is the ONLY annual Joni Mitchell International Music Festival we need, thanks! I think a few letters to the editor might be required here - they're trying to high-jack Jonifest, damn it! Hell - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a WHOLE NEW EXPERIENCE! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 17:53:13 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown **Here's hoping this thing happens! True...but please, let's not propose putting a STATUE out front! Bob NP: Stan Ridgway, "Roadblock" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:18:28 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC Maybe so,but at least Gore would have built up a huge coalition,and gathered the approval and support of the U.N. before going to war.(for what reason did we attack Iraq anyway?wmd's?nope.none there.to stop the torture going on there?nope we're torturing the Iraqi's ourselves.so why are we there?) >From: "Paul Mepschen" >Reply-To: "Paul Mepschen" >To: >Subject: gore and iraq NJC >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:25:35 +0200 > >'a voting citizen' said: > > I replied that that argument was now three years old and that if Gore >was >elected > > president we would not be in Iraq > >That's just laughable. I will not defend Bush, but for fucks sake, Gore >would >have brought America to war just as well -- Kakki is seldom right, but >Clinton >did bomb Iraq to pieces when your friend Al Gore was vice president. > >The differences between Gore and Kerry - when it comes to foreign policy - >will be petite. But by the time we can judge Kerry you will have forgotten, >like you have forgotten how right wing Clinton's policies were and how he >bombed Iraqw to pieces. > >paul _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 00:46:04 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown WOW! [.......]> The music festival would fit well in early July, Fernets said, when tourist > numbers temporarily dip. It would be an ideal celebration for the city's > 2006 centennial, perhaps featuring a performance by Mitchell, he said. > > Anderson said she mailed her daughter the city's south downtown plan, but > hasn't heard her opinion. > Perhaps, maybe, peut-'e'tre... featuring a performance by Mitchell... (you know, her mother hasn't heard yet, 'cause Master Mitchell is going to discute this with her secretly beloved JMDL, :-) Seriously, folks, maybe we will making plans for dating Jonifest's 2006 in "old" Saskatoon. I know I know Oliverea is nearer to many of you, but... I'm certain Canada's airport check-in-customs are less agresive than les 'Etats-Unis... and it will be an added prize for Wally to fly: Oh Canada! I've heard anything about a statue? Haya! Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano PS: I'm wondering if there's actually a Chania Chwen statue so we can piss upon... NP: Orphan, "Fisherman" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:51:57 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. Let's see...we are slicing up their bodies and sending them to their loved ones? Making them eat their own feces? Beating them mercifully then burn their bodies? No...NO ..,you see this is what they do ...this is how they play. Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe should look at the big picture. Bree Bush went to the UN...Powell went to the un.....look it up. > Maybe so,but at least Gore would have built up a huge coalition,and >gathered the approval and support of the U.N. before going to war.(for what >reason did we attack Iraq anyway?wmd's?nope.none there.to stop the torture >going on there?nope we're torturing the Iraqi's ourselves.so why are we >there?) > > > > >>From: "Paul Mepschen" >>Reply-To: "Paul Mepschen" >>To: >>Subject: gore and iraq NJC >>Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:25:35 +0200 >> >>'a voting citizen' said: >> > I replied that that argument was now three years old and that if Gore >>was >>elected >> > president we would not be in Iraq >> >>That's just laughable. I will not defend Bush, but for fucks sake, Gore >>would >>have brought America to war just as well -- Kakki is seldom right, but >>Clinton >>did bomb Iraq to pieces when your friend Al Gore was vice president. >> >>The differences between Gore and Kerry - when it comes to foreign policy - >>will be petite. But by the time we can judge Kerry you will have >>forgotten, >>like you have forgotten how right wing Clinton's policies were and how he >>bombed Iraqw to pieces. >> >>paul > >_________________________________________________________________ >Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. >http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:15:21 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC >From: "Bree Mcdonough" >To: icnh@hotmail.com, pjh_mepschen@hotmail.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 18:51:57 -0400 > >We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how >exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. > > Do the words "Abu Ghraib" ring a bell? _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:19:28 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc Kate.....I really like you...never met you...but I like you. Your cd was the very first cd I ever bought when I came to the list. ("for sentimental reasons") From your posts I can sometimes understand where you are coming from...the way you see things.. are heartfelt. I have no doubts about that. But ..where you see darkness I see a glimmer of hope. Where is the outrage for the million or so in mass graves in Iraq? Sometimes the outrage...imo..seems to be misplaced. You say we attacked?! I say...we are defending ourselves. You look at the smaller picture..I see the bigger picture. We are operating on the dark side? I say we are shining a huge beacon of light into the darkness. Well it goes on and on....."we just come from a different set of circumstances" Bree NP: DK's new one.. >I feel so much the same way bob... A lot of experienced people warned us >not to attack, it wasn't just a bunch of liberals who don't believe in >war... I know how you feel... there is such a disconnect between my own >peaceful life & the horrors going on overseas that weigh heavy in my >heart(including the horrors going on right here among those who defend >or make light of this situation) > >So, my motto these days is your either with them or against them (haha >she laughs weakly)... Meaning the dark forces of war, terrorism, hatred, >racism... Our administration is clearly working for the dark side... I >am again reminded that not all who appear to be human are actually >human... There are alien mutants among us in high places... It feels >like the evolution of human conciousness & compassion is in retrograde >right now... > >Both the true majority website & the kerry website have email petitions >you can sign for rumsfeld's resignation... Its something easy to do to >make your voice heard on this subject... _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with the new version of MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:44:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: stephen's BD NJC happy birthday, dear stephen in vancouver!!!! i hope you have a wonderful day and a wonderful night! love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:34:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC - --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > No...NO ..,you see this is what they do ...this is how they play. > > Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe > should > look at the big picture. Hi Bree, you mean life is so weird and twisted there anyway, that this is normal stuff for them? That it only looks so horrible to us because its *not* normal for us, but twisted and freaky? So, this stuff was a pretty normal "slice of life" for "over there"? I myself don't know. I almost want to give them a chance to defend themselves. Wonder if they're all monosyllabic. Wouldn't it blow us away if that little chick were REAL well spoken and she made sense of this??? surreal...thats how it seems. From another parallel place where instead of pulling your nails out, they make you masturbate. Maybe in yet another parallel place they make you eat pizza and ice cream. Well at least the one guy did die - showed him packed in ice and all. I dunno, this messes w/ my mind, lets just say ALOT. I guess I don't understand the piling of naked bodies thing. I don't understand the weird erotic undercurrent. How and when did sex become a component of torture? Genitals yes. But erotic content?? Forced masturbation? I just don't understand. But oddly, I sort of WANT to understand. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING??? whew..... Em ===== ........... "thats just the scale; the fish come later". ;) Norman Blake ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 02:14:39 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: gore and iraq NJC Oh, how much is bigger that picture? Bree says: > We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how > exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. > > Let's see...we are slicing up their bodies and sending them to their loved > ones? Making them eat their own feces? Beating them mercifully then > burn their bodies? > > No...NO ..,you see this is what they do ...this is how they play. > > Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe should > look at the big picture. > > Bree > > Bush went to the UN...Powell went to the un.....look it up. (let me repeat) > Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe should > look at the big picture. How's your picture? I can understand you're defending your G.I.Joes'nJanes, even the ones who're mercenaries for a bigger pay, but Defending violence? Not in my presence, dear. One cannot compare violences without having a bigger picture: for instance, iraquis are defending their land. "Colalition"s, or Sainte-Alliance if we like to call it so, armies are far away from their homes. Oh, I see an ever bigger picture: some soldier's backgrounds made of a roulotte in a backyard in an impoverished south. Yes, maybe we can look for changing these things before sending so much "real McCoy" across the oceans: BTW, how's the Public Education in your country? Yes, I love USA, Land of Freedom and Opportunities, but I don't feel to excuse all its mistakes. And I'm sorry to see this one is going longer and more sad. Yes, in the big picture maybe violence is unavoidable, is like ying or yang to Life, but we *must* feel horrorised by it: we're a civilization, aren't we? Just my 2 euros. Have a Great weekend! Emiliano NP: Kate Wolf - Both Sides Now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 01:19:23 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > You say we attacked?! I say...we are defending ourselves. against Osama? He and Iraq had and ahve nothing to do with eachother. There are no, and were no, WMD. You look at > the smaller picture..I see the bigger picture. being equally blunt, i would say that you see what you want to see. Going after the terrorists is right, no doubt. Iraq is not about that. Attacking Iraq, and Afhghanistan was not the way to deal with this. Do you really think it is okay for all those people, thousands of children included, to be killed in order that your sense of vegeance is assauged? The terorists, in that one incident, killed almost 3000 people. We, in response, have killed many many more than that. Only we lie to ourselves about it and call it somehting else, and spend our time justifying the murder of innocents in the name of revenge. You are right-it will go and on and on. The attitudes of some of the militant pro war, anti ME lot are no different to that of their enemy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 01:25:18 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: gore and iraq NJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bree Mcdonough" To: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC > We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how > exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. It is wise and fair to try to see the other side's opinion. When one side is blatent in their refusal to see what they do not want to see, it si very hard to begin to respect their viewpoint. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:37:21 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown Mulle writes: << True...but please, let's not propose putting a STATUE out front! >> Hey, Bob! Funny you should mention that. I am taking donations. Can you help? - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:45:29 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Centre proposed for downtown Hell writes: << I think a few letters to the editor might be required here - they're trying to high-jack Jonifest, damn it! >> Don't worry, Hell. They'll probably make the entire complex smoke-free and then hire "Up with People" castoffs for entertainment. XO, - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 21:07:04 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: gore and iraq NJC I'm not defending what this sub group of soldiers did. Not only do I think it is WRONG...but really stupid ....DUMB. When I write about the bigger picture..I'm talking about the evils in this world: Terrorism and all who hold terrorism tactics near and dear to their heart. I don't think it will go away by just pretending it or they...muslim fanatics don't exist. They declared a war on us a long time ago... mainly because what we stand for. Oh...and that we have befriended Israel these many years. Bree From: Emiliano >Reply-To: Emiliano >To: Bree Mcdonough , JMDL >Subject: Re: gore and iraq NJC >Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 02:14:39 +0200 > >Oh, how much is bigger that picture? > >Bree says: > > > > We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how > > exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. > > > > Let's see...we are slicing up their bodies and sending them to their >loved > > ones? Making them eat their own feces? Beating them mercifully then > > burn their bodies? > > > > No...NO ..,you see this is what they do ...this is how they play. > > > > Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe should > > look at the big picture. > > > > Bree > > > > Bush went to the UN...Powell went to the un.....look it up. > > >(let me repeat) > > Your statements are really out there..way, way out......and maybe should > > look at the big picture. > >How's your picture? >I can understand you're defending your G.I.Joes'nJanes, even the ones >who're >mercenaries for a bigger pay, but >Defending violence? >Not in my presence, dear. > >One cannot compare violences without having a bigger picture: for instance, >iraquis are defending their land. "Colalition"s, or Sainte-Alliance if we >like to call it so, armies are far away from their homes. > >Oh, I see an ever bigger picture: some soldier's backgrounds made of a >roulotte in a backyard in an impoverished south. Yes, maybe we can look for >changing these things before sending so much "real McCoy" across the >oceans: >BTW, how's the Public Education in your country? >Yes, I love USA, Land of Freedom and Opportunities, but I don't feel to >excuse all its mistakes. And I'm sorry to see this one is going longer and >more sad. > >Yes, in the big picture maybe violence is unavoidable, is like ying or yang >to Life, but we *must* feel horrorised by it: we're a civilization, aren't >we? > >Just my 2 euros. >Have a Great weekend! >Emiliano > >NP: Kate Wolf - Both Sides Now _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: gore and iraq NJC --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on > me . Tell me how > exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. > > Let's see...we are slicing up their bodies and > sending them to their loved > ones? Making them eat their own feces? Beating > them mercifully then > burn their bodies? > > No...NO ..,you see this is what they do ...this is > how they play. Bree, are you saying that if the other side does this kind of thing, then it's OK for "our" side to do it too? That doesn't sound like any American way I've ever heard about. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:01:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc news takes me up short --- Sherelle Smith wrote: > This is why I am so careful about what I say to my > dear friends here. Your > spirits are most precious to me and I must always > weigh whether or not what > I say is worth the risk of breaking someone's > spirit. Someone broke Amy's a > long time before her death. Some people are stronger > than others > emotionally. Where others bounce back, there are > some who just break. Sherelle, that has to be one of the kindest things I've heard/read in longer than I can remember. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 19:17:59 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: gore and iraq NJC Bree, you wrote: > We are torturing the Iraqi's? This is a new one on me . Tell me how > exactly we are torturing the Iraqi's. Darlin', do you read the papers? Watch the telly? I mean, I guess it's all subjective, but humiliation is a form of torture. Oh, and did I hear that U.S. soldiers have beaten and in some cases killed Iraqi prisoners? Does this not qualify as torture? In a follow-up post, you wrote: > I'm not defending what this sub group of soldiers did. Not only do I think > it is WRONG...but really stupid ....DUMB. It's beyond wrong and dumb -- it's criminal. For the record, this veteran wants to see each and every one of them in Leavenworth, for YEARS. > When I write about the bigger picture..I'm talking about the evils in this > world: Terrorism and all who hold terrorism tactics near and dear to their > heart. I don't think it will go away by just pretending it or > they...muslim fanatics don't exist. They declared a war on us a long > time ago... > mainly because what we stand for. Oh...and that we have befriended Israel > these many years. While you're talking about terrorism at the hands of fanatics, please don't forget "Christian" fanatics. Those would be the people who long ago declared war on the REST of us. Instead of bombing landmarks in the Middle East, they bomb clinics on their (and my!) home turf. Terror is terror, no matter who is perpetuating it or where. As far as what we "stand for" and why it might upset people ... maybe it's time we took a good hard look at that. All of it, not just select bits. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 19:25:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: NJC Re: limbaugh's lettin' off steam on the iraqi torture scandal - njc >You say we attacked?! I say...we are defending ourselves. You look at the smaller picture..I see the bigger picture. We are operating on the dark side? I say we are shining a huge beacon of light into the darkness. I like you too Bree but your logic escapes me. Who exactly are we defending ourselves from? The terrorists who attacked us were Saudi Arabian citizens. Their leader was headquartered in Afghanistan. So we attacked Iraq. Nobody in Iraq attacked our country. I'm keeping it simple cuz this part really is that simple & factual. Anyone who wants to twist things around can do so all they want but its twisted logic no matter how you look at it. Here is an old commentary from one of the many many experts who warned us not to attack Iraq. He knows much more about it than either you or I or anyone in our current administration. Even GWB's dad was against us attacking Iraq for god's sake. >August 15, 2002 Wall Street Journal COMMENTARY Don't Attack Saddam By BRENT SCOWCROFT Our nation is presently engaged in a debate about whether to launch a war against Iraq. Leaks of various strategies for an attack on Iraq appear with regularity. The Bush administration vows regime change, but states that no decision has been made whether, much less when, to launch an invasion. It is beyond dispute that Saddam Hussein is a menace. He terrorizes and brutalizes his own people. He has launched war on two of his neighbors. He devotes enormous effort to rebuilding his military forces and equipping them with weapons of mass destruction. We will all be better off when he is gone. Think Carefully That said, we need to think through this issue very carefully. We need to analyze the relationship between Iraq and our other pressing priorities -- notably the war on terrorism -- as well as the best strategy and tactics available were we to move to change the regime in Baghdad. Saddam's strategic objective appears to be to dominate the Persian Gulf, to control oil from the region, or both. That clearly poses a real threat to key U.S. interests. But there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks. Indeed Saddam's goals have little in common with the terrorists who threaten us, and there is little incentive for him to make common cause with them. He is unlikely to risk his investment in weapons of mass destruction, much less his country, by handing such weapons to terrorists who would use them for their own purposes and leave Baghdad as the return address. Threatening to use these weapons for blackmail -- much less their actual use -- would open him and his entire regime to a devastating response by the U.S. While Saddam is thoroughly evil, he is above all a power-hungry survivor. Saddam is a familiar dictatorial aggressor, with traditional goals for his aggression. There is little evidence to indicate that the United States itself is an object of his aggression. Rather, Saddam's problem with the U.S. appears to be that we stand in the way of his ambitions. He seeks weapons of mass destruction not to arm terrorists, but to deter us from intervening to block his aggressive designs. Given Saddam's aggressive regional ambitions, as well as his ruthlessness and unpredictability, it may at some point be wise to remove him from power. Whether and when that point should come ought to depend on overall U.S. national security priorities. Our pre-eminent security priority -- underscored repeatedly by the president -- is the war on terrorism. An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken. The United States could certainly defeat the Iraqi military and destroy Saddam's regime. But it would not be a cakewalk. On the contrary, it undoubtedly would be very expensive -- with serious consequences for the U.S. and global economy -- and could as well be bloody. In fact, Saddam would be likely to conclude he had nothing left to lose, leading him to unleash whatever weapons of mass destruction he possesses. Israel would have to expect to be the first casualty, as in 1991 when Saddam sought to bring Israel into the Gulf conflict. This time, using weapons of mass destruction, he might succeed, provoking Israel to respond, perhaps with nuclear weapons, unleashing an Armageddon in the Middle East. Finally, if we are to achieve our strategic objectives in Iraq, a military campaign very likely would have to be followed by a large-scale, long-term military occupation. But the central point is that any campaign against Iraq, whatever the strategy, cost and risks, is certain to divert us for some indefinite period from our war on terrorism. Worse, there is a virtual consensus in the world against an attack on Iraq at this time. So long as that sentiment persists, it would require the U.S. to pursue a virtual go-it-alone strategy against Iraq, making any military operations correspondingly more difficult and expensive. The most serious cost, however, would be to the war on terrorism. Ignoring that clear sentiment would result in a serious degradation in international cooperation with us against terrorism. And make no mistake, we simply cannot win that war without enthusiastic international cooperation, especially on intelligence. Possibly the most dire consequences would be the effect in the region. The shared view in the region is that Iraq is principally an obsession of the U.S. The obsession of the region, however, is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If we were seen to be turning our backs on that bitter conflict -- which the region, rightly or wrongly, perceives to be clearly within our power to resolve -- in order to go after Iraq, there would be an explosion of outrage against us. We would be seen as ignoring a key interest of the Muslim world in order to satisfy what is seen to be a narrow American interest. Even without Israeli involvement, the results could well destabilize Arab regimes in the region, ironically facilitating one of Saddam's strategic objectives. At a minimum, it would stifle any cooperation on terrorism, and could even swell the ranks of the terrorists. Conversely, the more progress we make in the war on terrorism, and the more we are seen to be committed to resolving the Israel-Palestinian issue, the greater will be the international support for going after Saddam. If we are truly serious about the war on terrorism, it must remain our top priority. However, should Saddam Hussein be found to be clearly implicated in the events of Sept. 11, that could make him a key counterterrorist target, rather than a competing priority, and significantly shift world opinion toward support for regime change. No-Notice Inspections In any event, we should be pressing the United Nations Security Council to insist on an effective no-notice inspection regime for Iraq -- any time, anywhere, no permission required. On this point, senior administration officials have opined that Saddam Hussein would never agree to such an inspection regime. But if he did, inspections would serve to keep him off balance and under close observation, even if all his weapons of mass destruction capabilities were not uncovered. And if he refused, his rejection could provide the persuasive casus belli which many claim we do not now have. Compelling evidence that Saddam had acquired nuclear-weapons capability could have a similar effect. In sum, if we will act in full awareness of the intimate interrelationship of the key issues in the region, keeping counterterrorism as our foremost priority, there is much potential for success across the entire range of our security interests -- including Iraq. If we reject a comprehensive perspective, however, we put at risk our campaign against terrorism as well as stability and security in a vital region of the world. Mr. Scowcroft, national security adviser under Presidents Gerald Ford and George H.W. Bush, is founder and president of the Forum for International Policy.< ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #211 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)