From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #206 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, May 4 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 206 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: 4 May 1970 NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Ms McKay njc ["mike pritchard" ] Re: 4 May 1970 NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: 4 May 1970 NJC [Em ] re: njc, patti smith and george w. bush [Garret ] Re: Sweet Chicago, NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] NJC--Breaking Nyronews!!! [Wtking59@cs.com] merci pour l'info, France! -- NJC -- PC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: 4 May 1970 NJC [Em ] [none] [magsnbrei ] Re: 4 May 1970 NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: 4 May 1970 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5KQw==?= [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: 4 May 1970  NJC [Em ] Re: 4 May 1970 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5KQw==?= [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] njc, the patti smith article link ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: work njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: work njc ["tantra-apso" ] Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] * CLOSED: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 31-40 of JM Covers ["Musi] Offer: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 41-50 of JM Covers ["Music Is] real support for soldiers and other humans -- NJC and LONG [Smurfycopy@ao] Re: njc, the patti smith article link - translation into English - kind of long but fascinating reading [Catheri] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:56:12 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re: 4 May 1970 NJC >>34 years ago - remembering Jeffrey, Sandra, Allison, Bill - and wondering why 34 years later we are invading other countries still and what can be done to stop it<< Hi Vince I assume (excuse the ignorance) that these four people are the '4 dead in Ohio'? In 1970 I was travelling in France just prior to returning to the UK in order to see Ms Mitchell et al at the Isle of Wight Festival. We were camping near the Mediterranean (little did I suspect then how important this sea would become in my later life) and I recall listening to two tracks on Radio Luxemburg, both of which were banned in the UK: Neil Young's 'Ohio' and War's 'Spill the Wine'. They were great days, and the big highlight for me then was hearing Clapton's solo debut. I haven't listed to Clapton much since he became an Armani advertisement (and I loved Laurent's remark about spending the concert in the bar) but the feelings behind the two songs mentioned above stayed with me much longer. Rambling now, must have a cup of tea. mike in barcelona npimh 'Ohio' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:07:39 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Ms McKay njc >>whereas in North America, it's a rude word for vagina. And anyone I've ever heard say it, pronounces it to rhyme with "shot".<< Didn't Hed(le)y Lamarr in 'Blazing Saddles' call Lili Von Shtupp a 'Teutonic Twat'? mike in barcelona np Wallflowers - Bringing Down The Horse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:25:36 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 NJC Mike writes: << both of which were banned in the UK: Neil Young's 'Ohio' and War's 'Spill the Wine' >> Huh? I don't get it. Why were these songs banned? I don't remember Britain being a big Vietnam war supporter, so why would "Ohio" be banned? And what's with banning "Spill the Wine?" Were there drug references in the song? I thought it was about drinking wine on a summer day! One difference I can't help but notice between the war in Iraq and the one in Vietnam is I don't remember people in the Vietnam era saying, "I don't support the war, but I support our troops." What the hell is that convoluted thinking all about? There's no way anyone can support the troops and not support the war. That's like saying, "I don't support violence against women, but I do support abusers." Why not say something more like, "I care very deeply about the troops, but I do not support the war." I care very much for the troops and would like every single one of them to be home with their loved ones, but I do not support them fighting a war that kills innocent people and tarnishes the name of the United States of America, the country I love. - --Smurf, who is old enough to remember when Vietnam was two words . . . NPIMH: Oh when will they ever learn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 NJC - --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: I don't remember people in the Vietnam era saying, "I > don't > support the war, but I support our troops." > What the hell is that > convoluted > thinking all about? There's no way anyone can support the troops and > not support the > war. Smurf, when I hear this said I very much take it to mean what you followed up with: > "I care very > deeply about the > troops, but I do not support the war." As far as the Vietnam era, I was a kid, as many of us were, and always very saddened at the near-abuse (some of) the returning vets faced. So different from what the returning soldiers faced after WWII. Not suggesting any ticker tape parades, but not wanting to spit on them either. Some of these people, yes, are gung-ho mofo's who are inherently evil fighter-people but some were/are just doing what they think is right or what for whatever reason they *had* to do. I don't think it's right, and I'm all for educating young people about the evils and uselessness of war and violence. But there's nothing sadder to me than a tearful f__ked up vet, who went, saw hideous things, maybe was injured, maybe not, maybe did things no human should ever do while caught up in "the horror" and is messed up emotionally over it for the rest of his life. Having worked closely with 2 old guys, one a WWII vet and the other a Korea vet..there's nothing that can bring them to tears like someone simply saying "happy veterans day to you". Its hard to make this come full circle in my head. These are murky waters indeed. I think the Vietnam vets felt spat upon, though so many were for all practical purposes "forced" to go. And I vowed in my head not to allow that any more, personally. I very VERY much oppose the war in Iraq and even as a kid opposed the one in Vietnam, but I could never spit on those limping home. In fact, on the back of my car is a license tag that says "Florida Salutes Veterans" and it is there, on my car, on the off chance it *might* brighten the day of some old WWII or Korea or even Vietnam codger, who is sad, who cries, who is FUBAR from having been to a war. It is NOT there for career military people. Nope. But I may have to replace that plate, cuz I think it may send the wrong message, that I am hawkish and support the war, when nothing can be farther from the truth. I am simply deeply saddened by f__ked up old vets. Not to mention dead young ones. Em ===== ........... "thats just the scale; the fish come later". ;) Norman Blake __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:48:32 +0100 From: Garret Subject: re: njc, patti smith and george w. bush What a wonderful little story:-) You should tell it again Susan! It seems that Patti really has changed! When i saw her on St. Patrick's Day this eyar she said she was looking forward to going backstage to ger a peanut butter sandwich with black coffee! perfect singing food! She also advised the audience to drink plenty of water and avoid any green beer! Twas probably a clarinet she had, and her playing of it is pretty "arty" to say the least, lol!! What a cool niece you have. wish i could have had such sense at 7, lol, all i liked was Diana Ross and Simon & Garfunkel, nobody else. GARRET np- Patti Smith, Jubilee (second listen, enjoying most of it so far!). Quoting Susan Guzzi : > Nooooo don't stop Garret - I love Patti as well! And now since I am old, I > get to tell my Patti story - which I may have before. > > Back in the early 80's, I saw Patti at the Aragon ballroom here in Chicago. > I can't remember the set list but she rocked and the crowd was ravenous for > more and more of her. Towards the end of the show she picked up a rose on > stage and I was standing just off center stage and she threw the rose out and > I caught it. OMG! I was mobbed and jumped on - but held on to the rose > through it all. She also took to playing the sax ,or was it the clarinet, at > that gig. Can't remember right now LOL! I remember her lying down on her > back and playing. Still not sure if she played very well or was being very > abstract - LOL! > > After the show, my friend and I broke through with the press and finally got > backstage. What an eye-opener. We just kept opening doors and walking into > scenes we probably shouldn't have seen. Then we got tossed again by security > and this time they were much more understanding. They lead us to Patti's > limo in the alley and told us to wait there and we could see her on her way > out. > > So as we waited, we heard a huge disturbance in the front of the building. > Police cars were everywhere, apparently Patti had gone to one of the windows > and waved a bra out the window. Well it created a mild riot and many were > arrested! Soon after I was leaning against the building - still waiting and > this little woman stumbled out and stood next to me - quite disoriented - it > was Patti! She smiled and shoook my hand as I reached for her and then > immediately climbed into the limo. My friend and I climbed in as well and > tried to talk to her but were dragged out. This was so unlike me, but > apparently someone had slipped me something - in my drinks (wink). But I > remember that we both begged Patti to read our poetry and hear what we had to > say - she just kept staring at us as we were pulled back and she was smiling > and mumbling - she was really screwed up! > > Years later, in fact 2 or 3 years ago - she played my neighborhood folk > festival. I took my 7 year old niece at the time and my little Angela loved > her and was totally enthralled with how she moved and shook and sang! I was > quite proud of her enthusiasm. I also took her the following year to see > Michelle Shock. Ahhh maybe I can get her off Brittney Spears yet! > > I love Patti - she is a poet and like our Joni wil be revered long after all > these imposter musicians are gone! My favorite patti song is Ask the Angels > - hmmm those were the days! And I am glad that she is a voice of reason and > protest against the evil cabal that is this administration! Thanks Patti - > People DO have the Power! > > And welcome to our newbie Patti - nice to have you here! > > Peace, > Susan > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:37:05 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Sweet Chicago, NJC Susan wrote: It was lovely to meet her and I actually think I didnt freak her out too much - - LOL! Hi Susan! I'm baaaaaaaaack. It was a great time wasn't it?! I think you are so awesome Susan! You AND your city too! You didn't freak me out at all not even when you got up on the table and started dancing and belting out Night in the City in that little noodle shop! (Okay so you didn't really do this but it would have been cool if you did!) Thanks for a great time! Flip side of the coin now... The AA retreat I went on was.... well, overwelming. I had somewhat of a break down yesterday because I got a call that one of my friends, another alcoholic, is dying in the hospital from a massive stroke related to years of drinking too much. I'm still shaken. Sigh. Reality in my face. One day at a time. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:15:25 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: NJC--Breaking Nyronews!!! Hey, Gang ~ As second only to our beloved Joni (or is it actually the other way around?), Here's some important news about the up-coming, vintage concert disc from Laura Nyro ("Spread Your Wings And Fly: Live At The Fillmore East, May 30, 1971"), which is scheduled for release from Columbia/Legacy on June 1st. This CD contains a classic Nyro show that's being released in its entirety for the first time! Producer's note reads: "The only known recording of this historic performance was made with three microphones, mixed directly to a stereo tape machine moving at the relatively low-fi speed of 7= inches per second. The tape has not aged well. It is bowed and brittle and noisy and missing little chunks of oxide (the layer that holds the actual music), causing intermittent audio 'drop-outs.' So sonically disconcerting was this tape that, were it not for the extraordinary efforts of our mastering team, you might never have had the chance to hear it. Although still audibly flawed, this magical performance is finally able to transcend its technology. I'm simply thankful it still exists, and happy to be able to share it with the world." --- Al Quaglieri. TRACK List: 01.) American Dove 02.) Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing / A Natural Woman (Medley) 03.) Spanish Harlem 04.) I Am The Blues 05.) Walk On By / Dancin' In The Streets (Medley) 06.) Emmie 07.) Map To The Treasure 08.) Christmas In My Soul 09.) Save The Country 10.) Timer / Ooh Child / Up On The Roof (Medley) 11.) Lu / The Flim Flam Man (Medley) 12.) Mother Earth Footnote: Two songs included ("American Dove" and "Mother Earth") are previously unreleased, Laura Nyro originals. XXXOOO, Billy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:33:03 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: merci pour l'info, France! -- NJC -- PC Maybe the media will help end this war, as they did with Vietnam. Between the news below and the sickening photos of the American and British soldiers' humiliation and degradation of Iraqi prisoners, how anyone can feel pride in what "we" are doing over there is beyond me. The following is from << http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm >> French TV to show images of US helicopter killing Iraqis Tue May 04 2004 08:59:08 ET French cable television station Canal Plus on Tuesday will broadcast images, stolen in Iraq, of a US army helicopter killing three Iraqis who do not appear to be posing any threat, one of whom was wounded. The show "Merci pour l'info" (Thanks for the news) obtained the footage, seen by an AFP correspondent, from a "European working as a subcontractor for the US army" who left Iraq two weeks ago. The man claims to have hidden the tape, dated December 1, 2003 and filmed at an unidentified location in Iraq, at the US base where he lived and worked. The three-and-a-half minutes of footage were taken from the helicopter firing at the three individuals, who were considered by the US military to be suspicious. Conversations between the helicopter pilot, the sharpshooter and their commanding officer -- who had a video link and is giving orders in real time -- can be heard on the tape. The footage shows how the three men were killed one after the other. After the deaths of his two companions, the third attempted to hide under a truck, but was hit by helicopter gunfire. "Got the guy right here," says the sharpshooter, as the wounded man is seen crawling on the ground. "Good. Fire. Hit him," replies the officer. In March, the rights watchdog group Amnesty International said "scores of civilians have been killed apparently as a result of excessive use of force by US troops, or have been shot dead in disputed circumstances." The broadcast also comes as the United States confronts mounting anger over the alleged abuse of coalition prisoners in Iraq and the release of photos showing US troops humiliating Iraqi detainees. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:22:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 NJC I worry that my last post (replying to Smurf's post) came across as argumentative. Didn't mean that. Just wanted to express my concern with the fact that all too often we are sort of forced to express our views in short, sound bite sized chunks, which don't capture the depth of anyone's feeling. T-shirt communictaion, bumper sticker communication, signature line on emails communication. Little things that "paint" us. And I think Smurf, if you're reading this, you expressed a need to further "flesh out" the idea of caring about the troops while not supporting the war. Rather than having that pat little statement "I'm against the war but I support the troops". I think nowadays we feel we have to talk real fast, like if we don't say where we stand or what we feel or think fast enough - the camera won't pay attention. So we go with these "phrases", that don't do the individual justice. It's like that Dylan song from Street Legal, "No Time to Think". Thats one really excellent thing about this list. There IS time to think, time to flesh out thoughts, etc. Anyway, hope I didn't come across as really disagreeing..not so..just adding some thoughts, and fears etc. Em ===== ........... "thats just the scale; the fish come later". ;) Norman Blake __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: [none] among other brilliant bits, Kay Ashley wrote: <> of course this is nothing new under the sun, however, definitely worth repeating, emphatically. Like it or not, abortion happens. I'm sad that it does, however, that is a reality for many women. Legislation, finger pointing, name calling, heated arguments, citing 'facts' or manipulated statistics are not going to change that reality and women have the right to be safe and have options without being slammed against a brick wall. It's one hell of a situation to be in. Decision. Yea, right, if you want to call it that. Choice. Hmm. Hell of a choice isnt it. Standing on the ledge in the middle of the night watching the cars go by, can't go home, cant tell, paralyzed with fear...dont want to go forward, can't go backward. The jezebels revisited. I'm more than a little sick of hearing all the weanie waggers out there try to tell me what to do with my body. Mags. ***** your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle everything i do is stitched with its colour. w.s.merwin Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:41:06 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 NJC Em writes: << And I think Smurf, if you're reading this, you expressed a need to further "flesh out" the idea of caring about the troops while not supporting the war. Rather than having that pat little statement "I'm against the war but I support the troops". I think nowadays we feel we have to talk real fast, like if we don't say where we stand or what we feel or think fast enough - the camera won't pay attention. So we go with these "phrases", that don't do the individual justice. >> I guess my point is that perhaps people need to think about what they're saying before they speak or write things that make no sense. Next time someone says to me, "I'm against the war but I support the troops," I will ask what the hell that's supposed to mean! There is a neighborhood bank nearby that's covered in yellow ribbons and has a big sign that says, "We support our troops." Okay, support them and the war that goes along with supporting them, but don't expect the Smurfy millions to be deposited in your bank anytime soon, Mr. Drysdale! Em also said: << nowadays we feel we have to talk real fast, like if we don't say where we stand or what we feel or think fast enough - the camera won't pay attention >> Gee, remember when the camera had time to PAN the cocktail hour? Now it's in your face and rolling all the time! And Em, I am a little too thick skinned from my decades on the JMDL to take offense at anything you may have said! (Although I do appreciate your gentle touch.) The last time I remember taking offense was back in the last century, in my vaudeville days, when I had to put up with second billing with Norma the Snake Charmer. Hmph! I'll tell ya, she was charming more snakes than the ones in her wicker basket to get that top billing . . . - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 12:33:39 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5KQw==?= **I guess my point is that perhaps people need to think about what they're saying before they speak or write things that make no sense.** Oh sure, NOW you tell me! Anyway, everytime I get my paystub and see that "Federal Income Tax Withheld" block, I say to myself, 'yep, I support our troops'. I think that partially what that means is that to a certain extent we realize that the men & women who are sent into battle are just pawns and they should be held in higher esteem than the pawnbrokers who put them there. Also...someone please make sure I have this correct...when we discovered that the whole WMD thing was a lie and a scam, the talking point for defending our invasion was that Saddam was abusing & torturing Iraqis. Now we're over there abusing & torturing Iraqis. It just doesn't make much sense to me, but then again I'm a simple guy I guess. Bob NP: Bruce, "Darlington County" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:05:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: 4 May 1970  NJC - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > Also...someone please make sure I have this correct...when we > discovered that the whole WMD thing was a lie and a scam, the > talking point for defending our invasion was that Saddam was > abusing & torturing Iraqis. Now we're over there abusing & > torturing Iraqis. It just doesn't make much sense to me, but > then again I'm a simple guy I guess. Bob I just pray that those who were caught on film doing this stuff are just a bunch of bad seeds. REALLY sicko bad seeds. And that there is no more of that. That they've all been busted for their sadistic (and non consensual) perversion and cruelty. Hope its not, in fact, a more widespread thing. Makes me so mad though, that one little chick it keeps showing; I just want to kick her ass.... lol, not very nice huh? Wonder if she's made her (probably) Christian momma proud. grrrrrrr.... Em ===== ........... "thats just the scale; the fish come later". ;) Norman Blake __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:32:34 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: 4 May 1970 =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5KQw==?= **Hope its not, in fact, a more widespread thing. I'm sure you're right Em...unfortunately the bad seeds will get a much higher profile. From all accounts I've read the men & women there just want to do the best job they can and come home safely. "They want you they need you They train you to kill To be a pin on some map Some vicarious thrill" Joni Mitchell, The Beat of Black Wings Bob NP: Bruce, "Leap Of Faith" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:15:23 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: njc, the patti smith article link Bonjour, Catherine! Here's the link to the Patti Smith article in Le Nouvel Observateur if you want to start translating for everyone: http://absolufeminin.nouvelobs.com/people/people2059_085.html What a fascinating person! She sounds very educated and intelligent, too. No wonder Susan Guzzi went nuts at her show! ;) Peace, the other Patti _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:57:39 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re May 4 1970 NJC Mike writes: << both of which were banned in the UK: Neil Young's 'Ohio' and War's 'Spill the Wine' >> Smurf said: >>Huh? I don't get it. Why were these songs banned? I don't remember Britain being a big Vietnam war supporter, so why would "Ohio" be banned? And what's with banning "Spill the Wine?" Were there drug references in the song? I thought it was about drinking wine on a summer day! << Hey Smurf, I don't get it either. All I do know is they upset someone at the BBC who was in a position to ban them. I also remember Chuck Berry's 'My Ding-a-ling' and The Dubliners' 'Seven Drunken Nights' being banned. Brits will probably remember others. Not for nothing was the BBC known as 'Auntie', its behaviour was quite, how does one say it, 'matronly'? Is there a female equivalent of 'avuncular'? mike in barcelona np - West Side Story ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:12:22 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: work njc Marianne asked: > What are your work hours? > How much time off each year? > Stressful or not? I like this thread. I'm so far behind in my mail at the moment...the result of a "mini-break" taken in south central New Mexico (Roswell, Lincoln, Capitan, Carrizozo, Socorro and environs). I sorted my mailbox by subject and read all the replies. Very interesting. I don't work, now...I'm completely indolent and am loving the Hell out of it after nearly 18 years in the Info Technology biz. My last position (and "official" title) was Director of (insert corporate name here) Site Operations Center, at a SFO start-up specilizing in high-end corporate web site development and 7x24x365 management (think: American Airlines, Sharper Image, Best Buy, yadda-yadda and you got it). The hours were insane: I commuted 45 minutes from San Ramon, CA into The City. Monday thru Friday I left on the 0500 train every morning and arrived home sometime after 8:00 p.m., if there were no "fires." Saturdays were "discretionary," I probably worked one Saturday a month. Seventy hours per week was about average. I was on-call 7x24x365, unless I was on vacation, of which I took *one* over a period of 2+ years...and that was one week. I went to work there before the dot-com bubble burst and during those six-to-eight months the perks were amazing: free wine and beer in the fridge (microbrews and good Napa Valley wines), a kegger once a month, lotsa corporate parties and outings, catered lunches from some of SFO's trendier restaurants once a week. The camaraderie was absolutely fantastic...a huge number of highly talented engineers and coders, some bright young biz-school types, slick sales folks (greasy, if you prefer), and semi-enlightened management. Then the bubble burst. The perks went away. We laid off half the company, literally. We went from 300+ folks down to 150 in one very bloody, shocking day. The CEO was fired. The COO quit. We had a 100% senior management (VP and above) turnover in about six weeks time. Morale plummeted. The VC guys talked about liquidating. Savoirs were brought in. We signed just enough new clients to remain above water. I worked my ass off, but it wasn't fun any longer. I held on for a year after my boss (and friend of 15 years) left the company and then I bailed. The stress was incredible...so much so that I came down with the stereotypical stress complaint: ulcers. And this in a guy that never ever, not once, thought he was vulnerable to "stress." How wrong I was... The company still exists, and my friends that stayed are still bitching ad keeping me posted on palace politics. As for me, I miss the folks, but not the job. What a long strange trip THAT was. Now...all that said, I have an observation. The above narrative, when it comes to work hours and such, isn't at ALL unusual in the IT biz. And my sons (both career military officers) put in the same amount of hours, and make a lot less. I think Americans tend to be workaholics, and that the number of hours one works tends to increase along with your responsibilities. Seventy and 80 hour work weeks aren't at all unusual in nearly any profession in the US...at least from my experience. I also think Europeans have a much better sense of "balance" where the work/life equation is concerned. Example: a few years back I did a consulting gig for a global insurance firm HQ'ed in London. After the project kick-off meeting, my counterpart (an IT Director) took me aside and told me: "You have full access to the office and our facilities any time you want them. You will have access to ME and my staff from 0900 - 1700, Monday thru Friday. Your reputation precedes you...we do NOT work the same hours you EDS people (and by inference, Americans) do. And we refuse to work the same hours as you. I just want to be clear." At the time I thought "What a loser!" Now I'm not so sure. What say you? Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:52:04 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: work njc bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman Pennington" To: "Marianne Rizzo" ; Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: Re: work njc > Marianne asked: > > > What are your work hours? > > How much time off each year? > > Stressful or not? I have not ever 'worked'. That was very stressful. It took a long time to accept that situation and also to learn how to deal with it. Yes, learning to deal with all that time was difficult. I also had to learn that despite others, it wa snot healthy to define myself by what i did. I don't define others that way. What other people do may be interesting sometimes but it isn't how I define them. I learned to use my time well. I gave much of it to others. I also used it to learn - I am a self taught pc user and a self taught and published knitwear designer. Most importantly, I use my time to make John's life as smooth as i can so that he only has to worry about work-he does about 50-60hrs a week.(I ahve come to realise that high powered execs need someone to run the domestic side or they come unstuck) All matters domestic are in my hands. The dogs-feeding, walking, playing with, grooming bathing, birthing, showing etc also takes time. When I have been really into the elarning phases of the pc or engrossed in some new design, i have worked at it for 18 hours a day. So 'house persons' do just as much work. It just isn't valued. A point of itnerest: the UK has the longest working hours of europe. Doctors etc are always saying the UK workers need to work less. Long work hours are not good for oneself and certainly not for children. If John was a father, his work would ahve made him a mostly absent one. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:14:48 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC Mike asks: << Is there a female equivalent of 'avuncular'? >> "Avauntular?" - --Smurf, so glad not to be in an Iraqi prison being abused by peacekeepers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 20:37:29 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC auntly? > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Smurfycopy@aol.com > Enviado el: Martes, 04 de Mayo de 2004 07:15 p.m. > Para: ink08@hotmail.com; joni@smoe.org; Smurfycopy@aol.com > CC: revrvl@chartermi.net > Asunto: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC > > > Mike asks: > > << Is there a female equivalent of 'avuncular'? >> > > "Avauntular?" > > --Smurf, so glad not to be in an Iraqi prison being abused by > peacekeepers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:38:27 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC Wally writes: << auntly? >> Yes, dear? Were you wondering if I would marry you on May 17, which happens to be the first day of gay marriage in Massachusetts? I always wanted to be the spouse of a doctor, and I always needed that doctor to be a shrink! XO, - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:21:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC it happens to be a very very special day -- and not only because of gay marriage day. *W* > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Smurfycopy@aol.com > Enviado el: Martes, 04 de Mayo de 2004 08:38 p.m. > Para: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC > > > Wally writes: > > << auntly? >> > > Yes, dear? Were you wondering if I would marry you on May 17, > which happens > to be the first day of gay marriage in Massachusetts? I always > wanted to be the > spouse of a doctor, and I always needed that doctor to be a shrink! > > XO, > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:26:33 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC *W* writes: << it happens to be a very very special day -- and not only because of gay marriage day. >> Right you are, *W*! It's Norwegian Independence Day and it's just two weeks before the anniversary of the day Billy Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahatchee bridge. XO, - --Smurf, who'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, but selected Pres. W and VP Lon Cheney won't allow it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:37:31 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Re May 4 1970 NJC 0h you silly silly boy. we know what i mean. *****W***** > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Smurfycopy@aol.com [mailto:Smurfycopy@aol.com] > Enviado el: Martes, 04 de Mayo de 2004 10:27 p.m. > Para: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; Smurfycopy@aol.com; joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: Re May 4 1970 NJC > > > *W* writes: > > << it happens to be a very very special day -- and not only because of gay > marriage day. >> > > Right you are, *W*! It's Norwegian Independence Day and it's just > two weeks > before the anniversary of the day Billy Joe McAllister jumped off the > Tallahatchee bridge. > > XO, > > --Smurf, who'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, but > selected Pres. W and VP Lon Cheney won't allow it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:08:17 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: * CLOSED: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 31-40 of JM Covers Volumes 31-40 going to Kenny at PassScribe@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:10:38 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: Offer: Perpetual Joni Covers Train: Volumes 41-50 of JM Covers Round 5 ... the last round to get these all out and about .... preference given to Southern Hemisphere for this batch (any Aussies or Kiwis out there interested?) In order to enable latecomers to the list or new traders have a chance of listening to Bob Muller's incredible compilation of covers of Joni's songs - some 1500 in all - this begins the launch of the Perpetual Joni Covers Trains. For those not familiar with trading trains, here is how they work. When the disks come to you, you make copies of as much of the contents as you want, and then you post back to this list offering to pass the disks along to the next person. You do not keep the originals -- you keep the copies you made for yourself. On most trains, the convention is that you make the copies and send the masters along within two days. For these trains, you must agree to turn them around within one week. Sometimes the offer goes unclaimed. Bob and I expect that to happen from time to time. So, by participating, you agree to just hang on to the disks and then make another offer a month or so later (or to respond if somebody posts a grovel looking for them). In theory, if everybody takes good care of the disks, wrapping them well, not letting them get scratched, etc. and passes them along, these covers will run on the tracks for years. Bob copied 50+ disks for me to launch this and I have copied them so there is a LOT of time sunk into offering these up. Nobody is going to monitor the progress of these trains so if you participate and then lose the disks or fail to reoffer them, you will have kept others from enjoying them. When you post an offer, please include these "rules". One final note, I know a few folks like to compress these into MP3s. If you want to, go ahead but please do not send MP3s to the next person - MP3s permanently delete some of the "data" and sound quality degrades so please pass the masters along. So, anybody who would like to receive volumes 41-50, please send me: 1. Your mailing address and 2. Your promise to reoffer, etc. If you want to know what is on the disks, please see this link: http://www.jmdl.com/covers/byvolume.cfm Enjoy and have a nice week, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 22:27:17 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: real support for soldiers and other humans -- NJC and LONG Beyond the lip service of "I am against the war, but I support our troops," there are some really wonderful ideas for helping American soldiers and the people of Iraq below. (Don't know why non-American soldiers aren't included.) You can read all the ideas below, but if you go to the actual site -- Michael Moore's, quelle suprise! -- the text features HTML links that take you right to the organizations, etc. You can donate air miles, groceries, calling cards and more, so check it out. This no-good war is really making me angry and I am becoming a bit unhinged, so I want to do something more than just complain about evil, and about how non-rich kids are always the ones to get shipped off to these inane wars, etc, etc., etc. Here are ideas for ways to actually DO something. All the info is below, but go to the site if you want to help or even to suggest ways to help: http://www.michaelmoore.com/links/index.php?linkType=How%20to%20support%20the% 20American%20soldiers%20and%20help%20the%20people%20of%20Iraq How to support the American soldiers and help the people of Iraq The Fisher House The Fisher House program is a unique private-public partnership that supports America's military in their time of need. The program recognizes the special sacrifices of our men and women in uniform and the hardships of military service by meeting a humanitarian need beyond that normally provided by the Department of Defense. These homes enable family members to be close to a loved one at the most stressful time -- during the hospitalization for an unexpected illness, disease, or injury. There are currently 31 houses located on the grounds of every major military medical center and several VA medical centers. These houses play a key role and are a vital asset to our military by allowing them to care for casualties, and their families, from Operation Enduring Freedom and will play a critical role in caring for casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom as well. It is our goal to create "a home away from home" that allows guest families the opportunity to address any challenge they must face during a time of crisis with dignity, and to give them a sense that there really are those who care about them in their time of need. You can donate to the Fisher House here. This money will go to the upkeep of existing Fisher House locations, to a fund for families who have lost a son, daughter, husband, wife, father or mother, and also to building a new Fisher House at Walter Reed Hospital where many of those injured in Iraq are now being treated. Wounded Heroes Tribute Page Leave a message in tribute and support for the men and women injured in the war. Donate Groceries Give the Gift of Groceries! A new partnership between CertifiChecks, America's hometown gift certificate resource center, the United Service Organizations (USO), the Air Force Aid Society (AFAS), Fisher House Foundation, Inc., and the Defense Commissary Agency (DeCA) lets every American make a significant material contribution to the morale and well being of military personnel at home and across the globe. To donate, go here. Health Care Kits for Iraqi Children Donate to the American Friends Service Committee (the Quakers) to help them provide care kits for Iraqi children. click here. Operation Uplink You can donate calling cards so military families can stay in touch during their extended separations. Operation Hero Miles Through Operation Hero Miles you can donate your airline miles to American soldiers so they can get home to visit with their families. go here. United Services Organization: Care Packages You can donate money to the USO to help sponsor care packages sent to the troops through this site . Armed Forces Emergency Relief Funds Each branch of the Armed Services has an emergency relief fund. Their money goes to help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses. Army Emergency Relief supports the families in the United States Army, as well as the members of the US National Guard and the Army Reserve. The Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society accepts donations at any of their locations across the country, which you can find here . The Air Force Aid Society helps to relieve financial distress of Air Force members and their families and to assist them in financing their higher education goals. They can be found here Red Cross: Helping Military Families Contact your local Red Cross chapter and find out how you can help the military families in your area who are struggling in this time of war. Books for Soldiers At Books For Soldiers you will find a forum where active duty soldiers have posted requests for books and dvds from back home which you can purchase and send to them. Check it out and help keep these men and women entertained. If you know of another good organization that is helping the soldiers and their families as well as ones helping the people of Iraq, please send the link and a brief description to Schankula@michaelmoore.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:04:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc, the patti smith article link - translation into English - kind of long but fascinating reading --- Patti Parlette wrote: > Bonjour, Catherine! > > Here's the link to the Patti Smith article in Le > Nouvel Observateur if you > want to start translating for everyone: > > http://absolufeminin.nouvelobs.com/people/people2059_085.html > > What a fascinating person! She sounds very educated > and intelligent, too. > No wonder Susan Guzzi went nuts at her show! ;) > > Peace, > > the other Patti > Catherine now: This was one translation that was fun to do. I think I got most of it right. - -------------------------------------------------- Patti Smith: This is Radio Baghdad by Francois Armanet Always inspired, always the rebel, Patti Smith has just released a new album, Trampin. Its opening title, Radio Baghdad, denounces Bushs cynicism. Francois Armanet met her in Paris before she went to visit Pere Lachaise Cemetery. Her face as pale as an El Greco painting, a penetrating look, charming squint in her left eye, a light down on her upper lip, thin arms, big hands, rough voice and pose like a little girl, knees turned in, feet in front. A diamond cross, given by her companion, decorates her graceful neck, another, in gold, a gift from her best friend, accentuates her charcoal tee-shirt. The back of her jacket says, Vote Nader. Lace-up boots, pants to her knees, a black ribbon on her left wrist. Androgynous rage and grace as captured by Robert Mapplethorpe on the cover of her 1975 album, Horses. That year, Patti Smith, decked out like Baudelaire, thrust herself into the male universe of rock. On this album, one song, Gloria, its first verse: Jesus died for somebodys sins, but not mine, inspired by Camus, and she became the icon of the Blank Generation. Four years later, after four albums, the underground heroine, oldest child of a working class New Jersey family, announced her retirement because she refused to become rich and to stay famous. She married Fred Sonic Smith (of the same name), former guitarist from MC5, and moved to Detroit. Eight years of the proletarian dream and domestic exile to learn humility and raise two children, writing books and doing the cooking and washing. In 1988, to get back into the swing of things, she returned with the hymn, People have the Power. Then, another absence. In 1994, her husband died of cardiac arrest and, the following month, her brother. She went back to New York, got her group back together and re-entered the scene. Ten years have passed and now she has come out with her ninth album. Eleven titles which resonate with the Book of the Dead, Simon of the desert, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, William Blake, ballads of inconsolable angels, and one long improvisation, Radio Baghdad, which depicts the city as both centre of the world and city of ash. - -- Radio Baghdad -- You must first go back to September 11. I was living in SoHo, 20 minutes walk from the World Trade Center. That morning, I kissed my daughter good-bye on her way to school and, just like every day, I looked at the towers on one side, the Empire State Building on the other. Then I went back to bed. I was woken up by the sound of the plane. It was flying so low that my daughter and her friends could see it pass just above their heads. The telephone rang and someone told me, Get dressed, theyre attacking us! I was horrified, but first I reacted like a mother. I ran into the street to look for my daughter and I could only be reassured when I held her in my arms. You would have thought it was an atomic explosion  the sky was filled with black smoke, everywhere white dust was falling, and I knew that dust was the remains of the towers and the human beings who had been there. In the street, we came across people who were bleeding and we said to ourselves, This is what war is like. I really became aware of the hugeness of this tragedy for Americans and all of humanity. But once this reaction of horror had passed, I began to reflect. I said to myself, Yes, its terrible, but in some countries, people live this all the time  famine, war, terrorism. Terrorism for some is the only possible way to respond. After all, at the time of the American War of Independence, Thomas Paine was a kind of terrorist with words. And he was jailed in England and France. America has weapons of mass destruction and despite this, were shocked when some people use bombs. Were Goliath pointing the finger at David. Yes, September 11 was a tragedy, but Im sorry that we didnt use the occasion or take the time to get together with the international community to think about these problems together, and to ask why certain people feel so dispossessed that they resort to this kind of act. International opinion by and large sympathized with our pain, because no one wants to see that kind of thing happening. September 11 could have opened up an era of dialogue. Instead, the situation is now worse than ever. I wrote Radio Baghdad from the point of view of an American mother who loves her country, but who sees it in trouble and says, If something is bothering us, lets get together and change things. We must always remind the government that the people exist. Bush exploited the fears of the American people and created an atmosphere of paranoia. I improvised the words to Radio Baghdad in the studio. I tried to express the impotent rage of an Iraqi mother the night the Americans unleashed that deluge of fire. It came out on its own, the mother singing a lullaby to her child celebrating the past grandeur of the earth. So, here are two women who love their countries, who experience these torments and who come together in a song. - -- My dreams -- I didnt really betray my dreams. Certainly I made a lot of mistakes, often by being too self-centred. But I always refused to compromise my art, and I dont need to be ashamed of my work. And Im still alive and I still have time to accomplish things. In fact, my childhood dream was to write a great book, like Pinocchio, a magical book that everyone loves and would want to read again. I always adored books. When I was little, I read under the covers with a flashlight instead of sleeping. I would love to write a book that changes readers lives the way some books changed mine. My greatest shattered dream, the great tragedy of my life, was my husbands death. Today, I lead a happy life. I have wonderful children and a companion. But I couldnt achieve this one dream  to spend the rest of my life with the father of my children. When I was a child, my mother gave me a copy of Songs of innocence and experience. William Blake described a little chimney sweep and protested against child labour. He never had any children, but you can tell he loved all the sad and mistreated children he met. Later, when I lived with Robert Mapplethorpe, we spent a lot of time studying Blakes drawings and paintings, and this influenced me both as a poet and as a painter, before I discovered the greatness of the man. All his life he struggled with poverty, lack of recognition, even sarcasm, but he never gave up believing in his vision. Blakes humour is an inspiration. Its in that spirit that I wrote the song, Rock n Roll Nigger  instead of allowing yourself to be insulted, why not reclaim the term? You dont need to call me your your kind or a person of colour, you can call me Negro, I know how to take it. - -- God -- The idea of God has always fascinated me. When my mother, who was a Jehovahs Witness, talked to me about God and the angels for the first time, I found some consolation  we were haunted by the atomic bomb. And then I was happy to have someone to talk to, someone I could tell everything to. Jehovahs Witnesses place a lot of stock in reading and studying the Bible. Even if I grew away from it when I was around 12 or 13, because I refused to belong to organized religion, I still studied it and that piqued my curiosity about other great sacred texts  the Koran, the Torah, Hindu and Buddhist manuscripts. What excites me is how, over the centuries, man has interpreted God through poetry, mystical texts and above all, art. There is so much beauty in Michelangelo, the primitives of Sienna or Rodin, so much beauty in Islamic texts or Buddhist painting. And theres beauty in prayer. Im really sorry about the dogmatic or sectarian side of religion  I have a more abstract and aesthetic approach. - -- The Beat Generation -- I had the chance to get to know Allen Ginsberg, Williams Burroughs and Gregory Corso. Oliver Ray (Patty Smiths current companion) and I watched over Ginsberg during his agony. I was very close to Burroughs and we visited Corso up until he died. I still keep the memory of their friendship and everything they passed on to me. Gregory taught me to be very demanding of myself and of other artists. Allen taught me the work ethic. And William, dearest to my heart, taught me to behave like a human being. He was a gentleman, full of humour and dignity, even in the way he moved and dressed. The further along in life I go, the more I think about him, wondering what he would do in my place in one situation or another. And he was always perfectly chivalrous with me. When I visited him after my husband died, he invited me to dinner, held my hand, came down the stairs with me, despite how old he was. Yes, they left us their work, but they also gave me a lesson in life. - -- Paris -- Of course Ill go to visit Pere-Lachaise. The graves of Nerval, Jim Morrison, Apollinaire, Eluard and so many others. I love tombstones. At Montparnasse, theres Baudelaire and Brancusi. And near the Place dItalie, the hotel where Genet died. I dont go to the taverns or parties. I prefer to get up early and pace the streets in the rain, in the footsteps of Genet or Nerval. Nothing makes me happier than putting my feet in the footprints of those whose works Ive loved, those friends, those sisters of my soul. - -- Rock -- If our music could influence talented young people, thats great. I have older tastes. I listen to Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, Maria Callas, Beethoven. I spent half my time at the opera. I listen to the same music I listened to when I was young. But Im happy that people keep on creating. I would like to see a new wave of artists appear that would sweep away the materialism and the cynical merchandising that dominates todays culture and that this generation would give music back its content, and make it a political and spiritual voice. Rock as I see it is a popular art form that can be the voice of change, unity and exaltation of the people. - -- Compassion -- Thats something I really learned when I had kids. One day I saw a report on Audrey Hepburns visit to Somalia when she had incurable cancer. She was with a mother and child, both famine victims. And the child died. I was just about to give my daughter her bottle. I looked at my child, happy, plump, cared for, and wondered what I would feel if I saw her as a skeleton with a swollen belly. I felt that mothers pain so strongly that I was overcome by it. Maybe thats what compassion is. Remarks collected by Francois Armanet. Trampin, by Patti Smith, Columbia. Born December 30, 1946, in Chicago, Patti Smith published Seventh Heaven, her first collection of poetry, in 1972, and put out many albums, including Horses (1975), produced by John Cale, Radio Ethiopia (1976), with its Rimbaud theme, Easter (1978), which included Springsteens Because the night, and Dream of Life (1988). She lives in New York. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #206 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)