From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #188 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, April 23 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 188 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: (NJC) pro-whatever [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Understanding njc ["Kate Bennett" ] (NJC) The War: Where there is music there is hope [lfye@cresapartners.co] Re: (NJC) The War: Where there is music there is hope [Em ] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! [Randy Rem] Re: (NJC) The War: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oCwgbm93IENoaWNhZ28=?= [SCJoniGuy@aol.c] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! [Em ] Re: No fags, NJC ["tantra-apso" ] (NJC) pro-choice [vince ] FYI [David Sadowski ] Re: No fags, NJC [Deb Messling ] Thanks NJC ["owen" ] RE: No fags, NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: No fags, NJC ["tantra-apso" ] Re: (NJC) pro-choice ["tantra-apso" ] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) ["gene ] Re: (NJC) pro-choice [vince ] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) [vince] Re: (NJC) pro-choice ["tantra-apso" ] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! [Randy Rem] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! [SCJoniGuy] RE: (NJC) pro-whatever ["patrick leader" ] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) ["gen] colin powell name calling, njc ["patrick leader" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:16:32 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: (NJC) pro-whatever Subject: Understanding njc Hi, I've tried to send messages but they keep bouncing... Let's see if this one get's through... Bree you said you wanted to understand some things... Here is my suggestion- pick up the may issue of vanity fair & read the article 'the path to war'... Its long & detailed... If you read it with an open mind I think you will at least understand why people feel they way they do about the bush administration... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:25:30 -0400 From: lfye@cresapartners.com Subject: (NJC) The War: Where there is music there is hope About an hour ago as I was driving to work I was listening to the local "classic rock" station (94.7 "The Arrow" in DC), and the DJ played something I haven't heard in its entirety in nearly 30 years: "Dialogue (Parts I & II)" from Chicago V. I wore out the grooves on that album (and the DJ mentioned that he'd done the same). The song made me cry, but it also gave me hope. I figure that if someone has dusted off this old gem and put it back on the airwaves, that person is thinking that things in this world are going very wrong these days. Here are the lyrics (from http://www.chicagotheband.com/discography05.htm) - -- this will surely bring back some memories for a lot of y'all! Dialogue (Part I) - Robert Lamm Terry Are you optimistic 'bout the way things are going? Peter No, I never ever think of it at all Terry Don't you ever worry When you see what's going down? Peter No, I try to mind my business, that is, no business at all Terry When it's time to function as a feeling human being, will your Bachelor of Arts help you get by? Peter I hope to study further, a few more years or so. I also hope to keep a steady high Terry Will you try to change things, use the power that you have, the power of a million new ideas? Peter What is this power you speak of and this need for things to change? I always thought that everything was fine Terry Don't you feel repression just closing in around? Peter No, the campus here is very, very free Terry Does it make you angry the way war is dragging on? Peter Well, I hope the President knows what he's into, I don't know Terry Don't you ever see the starvation in the city where you live, all the needless hunger all the needless pain? Peter I haven't been there lately, the country is so fine, but my neighbors don't seem hungry 'cause they haven't got the time Terry Thank you for the talk, you know you really eased my mind I was troubled by the shapes of things to come. Peter Well, if you had my outlook your feelings would be numb, you'd always think that everything was fine Dialogue (Part II) - Robert Lamm Group We can make it happen We can change the world now We can save the children We can make it better We can make it happen We can save the children We can make it happen - - copyright 1972 Big Elk Music ASCAP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:40:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: (NJC) The War: Where there is music there is hope Hey Lori! you poking your head up from work for some fresh air?? Hope your work stuff is going smoothly. I used to like the real old Chicago stuff too. Before the one guy died. I feel badly because I don't even remember his name. Like they used to have the 2 lead vocalists, Cetera and the other guy, who is on the track oyu mention and so many others. I loved it when they were basically a very hip "rhythm section" band, with the big horns and major percussion and stuff, that was great stuff. I have a multi-disc LP - a live one from back then, and tho it is pretty rough..I love listening to it. One of the first 45's I ever had was their "Lowdown". lol, now I hear that and I'm like what a depressing song for an 11 year old... but yeah their old stuff totally rocked. See ya!!! hope you get some r&r soon Lori. Em - --- lfye@cresapartners.com wrote: > About an hour ago as I was driving to work I was listening to the > local > "classic rock" station (94.7 "The Arrow" in DC), and the DJ played > something I haven't heard in its entirety in nearly 30 years: > "Dialogue > (Parts I & II)" from Chicago V. I wore out the grooves on that album > (and > the DJ mentioned that he'd done the same)....snip ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:50:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC) pro-whatever I am pro choice... I can vaguely remember those awful dark days when abortion was illegal... To me, pro choice is the lesser of two evils (the more evil being the government legislating against abortion)... but what an awful choice it is... So I cannot fathom the mindset of those who do abortions on a whim... & to be honest I question what kind of parents they would have made... Just food for thought... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:59:28 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > **End of plug. > > Beginning of plug - I've been enjoying Randy's CD for awhile now...it's > called "Old Road Gone" and you can buy it and/or hear samples here: > > http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/hanna > > I particularly love the "looseness" of this record - to me it's a throwback > to the folk-rock styles of Jefferson Airplane, CSNY, Moby Grape, that whole > west coast rock that I'm sure Randy grew up with. Yes, I did. Growing up on the SF penninsula, I was exposed to alot of that west coast sound, much of it by osmosis. Remember seeing Jerry Garcia doing a concert in a Park in Menlo circa '72, and so many great shows at Winterland. Also a big fan of British bands. And some blonde Canadian chick singer. Thanks, Bob, for the great feedback. A positive review from The Covers King is a definite score!! RR > Not the sort of thing I'm used > to hearing much anymore - definitely has a live feel to it as opposed to a > studio feel (that's a good thing - lots of artists go for that and not many > succeed). The songs, vocals, and musicians are very genuine - it feels very > authentic. And Randy's vocal styles always keep me guessing...he goes from sounding > like Lou Reed to Iggy Pop to John Mellencamp, but that's not to say it's > derivative. You can tell that he's really feeling what he's singing. > Some great jams and solos, and of course some sharp and biting lyrics too > which should be no surprise. > > The SCJoniguy says check it out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:05:49 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) The War: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oCwgbm93IENoaWNhZ28=?= Which is typically what happen when one puts a gun to one's head and pulls the trigger. And you're right, the loss of Terry Kath to Chicago was devesatating (he was their guitarist) Robert Lamm, I believe...like you say, that early Chicago stuff is pretty awesome. And thanks for sharing those lyrics Lori - I hadn't heard "Dialogue" in a long time and was in fact 'singing it' in my head as opposed to reading it. Those words still ring so true in our culture which is semi-depressing, but hey I can always spin "Saturday In The Park" and pull myself right out of it. Never did care much for Cetera's voice, and once he fashioned the band to a backup for his videos and whiny voice I left Chicago. Bob NP: Simon & Garfunkel, "Punky's Dilemma" 8/23/68 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! Randy, I checked it out and couldn't get the cuts to play! Really wanted to hear, too. Does it open up a Quicktime player like "o"'s page? Or do you have to have a different "player"? Couldn't get those ("O"'s) to play either from his website, but I suspect I was too impatient and didn't wait for them to load fully. Any tips on getting yours to play? thx Em - --- Randy Remote wrote: > Yes, I did. Growing up on the SF penninsula, I was exposed to > alot of that west coast sound, much of it by osmosis. Remember > seeing Jerry Garcia doing a concert in a Park in Menlo circa '72, > and so many great shows at Winterland. Also a big fan of British > bands. And some blonde Canadian chick singer. > Thanks, Bob, for the great feedback. A positive review from > The Covers King is a definite score!! ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:18:24 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! Try right clicking the song title, select "Save Target As" (or similar) and save to your desktop. After it downloads, right click, select open, and it should play in your preferred player. Could you let me know if this works, or not? Also, what kind version of Windows or whatever you are using-it would help me make it more user friendly. Thanks, Em ps if any computer savvy's know a better way to make an MP3 open automatically into the player, please email me privately. pps any other user comments would be appreciated, offlist Em wrote: > Randy, I checked it out and couldn't get the cuts to play! Really > wanted to hear, too. Does it open up a Quicktime player like "o"'s > page? Or do you have to have a different "player"? Couldn't get those > ("O"'s) to play either from his website, but I suspect I was too > impatient and didn't wait for them to load fully. > Any tips on getting yours to play? > thx > Em > > - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:58:53 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: now Randy rocks! -- NJC Randy writes: << And some blonde Canadian chick singer. >> We ALL love Celine, Randy! Have a great weekend, toute le monde! XO, - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:17:25 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: njc, sons and coffins Smurf wrote: "Patti, your son is so lucky to have a mother like you. I think it would be a much better world if more mothers "fought with every ounce of passion" to keep their children out of senseless wars. You may have saved his life." Thank you for this, Smurf! (HELP ME, I think I'm falling in love with all the wonderful Bobs on this list!) You cannot imagine what a terrible time that was for me. Michael was FURIOUS that I erased some of his phone messages and that I threw out recruitment letters and brochures. Of course, who would not be furious to have their mail and phone messages censored? I understood that, but I COULD NOT, as a mother, pass on a message to my son from Sgt. Smith or whomever, KNOWING that the man was a PROFESSIONAL recruiter of young people. It would be like saying: "Oh, Mike, by the way, the Grim Reaper just called. Please call him back." I could not give him the message. I could not. And those slick recruitment brochures -- right in the trash. They depicted happy young men playing basketball, for crying out loud! "Here, Mike -- check this out. Don't these guys look happy taking recess from their killology classes? Why don't you join?" He was really mad about that too, and told me it was a federal offense to throw away someone's mail. Now, a year later, he is not mad at me anymore. Phew! I did lose a few "friends" though, who thought I had no business doing what I did. When I saw the website you sent us, Smurf, with all the coffins, I wept. It really could have been my son in one of them. "There but for the grace of God....." But thank you for that -- the pictures were powerful, and I sent them on to friends, hoping they will inspire people to work harder for peace. And now, on a completely different and brighter note, let me share something that I hope will make you all laugh: Jim Shea, a humor columnist in the Hartford Courant, was writing about GWB and his flight suit anniversary -- his "cocky fighter-pilot persona" and how he "out Cruised Cruise." He then hilariously suggests another direction for this year's anniversary: "What if we were to dress you and Cheney as The Blues Brothers? I mean Jake and Elwood were, like you, on a "mission from God," right? We could work with that. And you would look beyond cool in a thin-lapel suit and some boss retro shades." (Hartford Courant, April 12, 2004) With heart and humor and humility, Patti _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:02:35 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: No fags, NJC it obviously doesn't help my spelling! Of course I meant serial.... bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ----- Original Message ----- From: AsharaJM@aol.com To: tantraapso@btopenworld.com ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: Re: No fags, NJC Colin wrote: <> Colin, if you ever decide to kill cereal, please don't hurt granola, OK? ;-) Just kidding, darlin'. You know I love you. Keep up with the non-smoking. It *does* get easier over time. Keeping good thoughts coming your way. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:52:15 -0400 From: vince Subject: (NJC) pro-choice Lieve said >Just for one simple fact: after a certain number of weeks, a baby (call it foetus) in the womb is just as much a baby >as one that's just come out after 9 months. I have posted this before, >because I think it is the one thing that most pro-choice people try to >ignore. > > Jerry responded: Please don't assume this Lieve. In my case, it is just that I don't agree with your statement as one of fact. I very much agree with Jerry. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:11:40 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: FYI At Schuba's in Chicago (www.schubas.com): Monday, 5/10/2004 Joni Mitchell Nite from Ladies of the Canyon 8:00pm - $8D Joni Mitchell Nite - Remember when your heart was broken, and all you did was listen to "Blue"? Shana Spiegel of Tributosaurus provides an evening of music from the legendary Joni Mitchell, performed by local singer/songwriters known as "The Ladies of the Canyon", Stephanie Rogers, Rikky McRae, Shana Spiegel, and Ingrid Graudins. Featuring Chris Siebold on guitar ( of cathy richardson band, kick the cat, e-mics), Chris Neville / keys (of tributosaurus), Chris Clemente (kick the cat), and Gerald Dowd (robbie fulks, maneschewitz). Merchandise of performers' original material will be available for purchase. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:48:56 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: No fags, NJC >Are you using a nicotine patch or gum? When I quit, I used Nicorette gum, >and I think it really helped. The drug helped the physical withdrawal >symptoms while I concentrated on the behavioral stuff. Then, of course, >you have to wean yourself off the gum, but you can do it gradually - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:36:08 +0100 From: "owen" Subject: Thanks NJC Wow, Just wanted to say thanks for all the positive response to my posting about songs on my website - I am planning to put more on there when I get chance - recording, writing, website building and the odd gig aren't so easy squeezed around a 9 to 5 job and a house full of noisy housemates! Once again thanks, I'll try and reply individually to you when I get time, also I promise a Joni-related post soon to atone for the self-promotion! All the best, Owen www.owenduff.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:29:41 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: No fags, NJC In her post, below, Lucy made a reference to recovering her sense of smell and taste. Smurph was dining with Alex and me recently and identified a taste in an olive spread I had made. I said something like, "it's really just pureed olives" and he said, "I thought I tasted orange in it." He was right! I had forgotten it and wasn't paying attention to the layers of flavor, but he was and he credited his newly refined sense of smell and taste gained from stopping smoking. So Colin, Chris, Strings, and anyone else who is considering the journey, look at what you have to look forward to! In support, I offer dinner that includes olive spread that has been kissed by orange zest to anyone who gives up cigarettes. Just one stipulation...you have to come visit me in Cambridge, USA...or allow me to use your kitchen when I come to visit you, wherever that may be. Best, Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: Lucy Hone [mailto:lulu.hone@virgin.net] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:28 AM To: tantra-apso; Murphycopy@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: No fags, NJC Colin.... (see colins post below the snippet of mine) ..... giving up is something you are doing for your own good. YOu have a health thing to consider and it is a good thing you are doing.... I find that there are triggers to my desire to smoke..Friday evenings WERE, and note the WERE... a time of high stress for me. THE FRIDAY... NIGHT END OF WORKING WEEK FAG was may be THE ONE... I still feel a sense of loss (today is Friday and I would have normally written this post with a fag on the go...) I have had to identify the smoking that was purely unconscious and the ones that were purposeful. Computer fags, phone fags, driving fags were the unconscious ones so were watching TV fags, reading the paper and reading books fags. I realised I could not under any circumstance recall how many I had smoked in those situations. Purposeful ones were the ones that I had at the end of an evening meal, or after the working day with a glass of wine. Writing this is bringing on a desire to smoke... HOWEVER.... I was told by a mate of mine that when you have the urge to smoke what you need to do is to immitate the breathing that goes with smoking as more than the nicotine and the various chemicals that go with the fag (that we assume bring on the feeling of relaxation) it is the breathing pattern that the brain recognises as the onset of something we consider pleasurable.... SO... My advice is when you feel that you need to smoke (even if it is only 4 a day) immitate the breathing. use a pen, or pencil or dummy ciggy to enable the act to feel authentic and it really does work. You also have to remember, and I thank my doctor for this, that giving up nicotine is as hard as giving up heroin. Your body will go into heart flutters, and bumps and you may have numbness in your hands, and your mouth may start to feel odd. There are also things like water retention (the body is used to having a diuretic in it) and cannot manage to expel everything that is has. People who have never smoked seem to think that smoking is about image. For me it was about time out, about thinking, about all the things that allowed me to step back from (or take part in) group activities. Now adays I really enjoy a clean mouth and breath, I am starting to control the weight surge (mainly water) I am really enjoying the feel of having money in my purse, I am not panic stricken to discover I have no fags at 11pm on a wet night.. I do not have to feel responsible for any one else's discomfort... It is interesting (though) that only now I am starting to get back my sense of smell. Just daily it is starting to improve ......and I have to say my dog smells disgusting and had to have a bath last night. There are various things I am noticing about outside smells and about all sorts of food that I ate but do not like the smell of at the moment.. Sense of taste is also returning and that is good... I am more satisfied by less in the last week or so..... SO Colin just keep on going but in your own good time. I know you have the heart issues to consider. Maybe you are not ready. Why not roll your 4 cigs with 3/4 the tobacco then you are losing one fag a day.... then reduce that again over a period of time. Give up badly and you will fail, be well prepared and make yourself promises as to what you will give yourself in return (CD's?) and it won't feel so bad.... WEll done you and we are here for helping love and hugs Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Hone To: Smurfycopy@aol.com ; joni@smoe.org ; tantra-apso Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: No fags, NJC COLIN....WELL DONE WELLL DONE WELL DONE.... the anger, pain and feelings of being lost beyond words will gradually ease...The urges to strangle small children, the longing to get an AK47 and anihilate the people in front of you in a queue,the extreme bent towards road rage, the rising feeling of total and inexplicable hunger, the feeling of wanting to mash your fist in the face of people who are "having a fag" , will all subside into a gentle and continuous state of empty anger and simmering loss... so how do you deal with that? I was fine for almost 48 hrs and then felt as you described above. It frightened me big time. I cam very close to hitting somone in my car because they ahd the audacity to be moving across the road too slowly. When i eventually went to the garage to get some baccy, i very nearly smashed my brand new car into the wall of the car wash. I left th car running and door open as I wnet into get my drug. thank god there was no queue. As soon as i ahd it, I felt stupid but calm. I expected to feel hungry but no, irrated yes but i was not expecting full blown rage and almost panic. The really annoying thing is I ahrdly smoke anything. I smoke the equiv of 4 fags a day, at most. I go for hours without if I ma busy or am somewhere I can't. I am ashamed of it now. reminds me of my anorexic days. the shame of it. I hate doing it(just as I hated purging), i hate being tied to it-the mess it makes, having to make sure i have them with me, the stopping the car tp roll one, the mess it makes, and most of all knowing how it is not good for my already diseased heart. I am well aware i could still live to 90 even with my heart probs but dobut if if smoke and could get somehting worse. I started smoking at 15 because I wanted 'to belong'. Lack of self worht is a killer. If only I felt then how i feel now about myself. I would not have started. but i did and that is that. I have given up other drugs, (valium withdrawal is hell on earth) but this is different and feels worse but in a diffrent way. I felt really good and was please dthat i felt only the slightest discomfort-till I found myself sweating and heart pumping and just wanting to explode. it came on suddenly. It felt like every bit of anger i ahd ever felt, every hurt, every slight, all the abuse, everything was encapsualted into one almighty feeling that terrified me. Maybe fags have been the only reason i didn't turn into a cereal killer. I don't feel good about this. i feel stupid ashamed, and desperately worried that i am only a fag away from being an all out psycho. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:43:22 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: No fags, NJC Just one stipulation...you have to come visit me in Cambridge, USA...or allow me to use your kitchen when I come to visit you, wherever that may be. you will have to visit me. not sure my heart will take that trip! My ecg thing, I am still wearing it, went 'off' whilst watching Will & Grace and recorded an 'event'. Probably my dislike of W&G. John enjoys it so we watch it. I know it is supposed to be funny and shouldn't be taken seriously but I cannot stand either Karen or Jack. Two more self centred nasty people would be hard to find. And they seem to be the show's centrepiece. Maybe i'd be more amsued if they always consequences from their appalling behaviour but they don't. their utter awfulness seems to be celebrated. The sho bothers me for othewr reasons. It is the first ever hit 'gay' show. So they make Jack a stereotype and horrid to boot. They make Will sad and lonely and too good to fuck. The whole thing just irks me. As does Queer eye for the str8 guy. Please. Can't they see WHO is being laughed at? All the people, female, i have heard discuss this show don't mention the make overs. They just like to watch camp men and have a good giggle. If they ever make a gay show with the star as camp as say Harrison Ford, I'll believe the whole equality non dsicrimination thing is true. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 23:46:15 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: (NJC) pro-choice Vince and Jerry could you explain why you disagree with Lieve's 'fact'? Whilst I have no objection to a woman aborting by choice(not my palce to object or not) I still can't see how a 4mth grown or 3 mth grown is not a baby. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: "Jerry Notaro" Cc: "Joni List" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:52 PM Subject: (NJC) pro-choice > Lieve said > > >Just for one simple fact: after a certain number of weeks, a baby (call it foetus) in the womb is just as much a baby > >as one that's just come out after 9 months. I have posted this before, > >because I think it is the one thing that most pro-choice people try to > >ignore. > > > > > > Jerry responded: Please don't assume this Lieve. In my case, it is just that I don't agree > with your statement as one of fact. > > I very much agree with Jerry. > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:50:51 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) vince! i'm surprised of your hatred for the cubs. with my man dusty there now, a world championship is just a matter of time. just think after all these years chicago will have a champion. now say after me------"GO CUBS!!" take care and hope all is well, gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: "Victor Johnson" Cc: Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:44 PM Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) > Victor Johnson wrote: > > >I was ringing someone up at Whole Foods and she was getting some money out > >to pay when she looked at one of the dollar bills. In big black magic > >marker, someone had scrawled across the face of the bill, The Chicago Cubs > >Suck! > > > >We got a good chuckle out of that. > > > > > > > "The Cubs suck" would be a far better motto on our money than "In God we > trust." > > It was a proud moment in my life when my grandson, in June 2002, got his > first "Cubs Suck" T-shirt. > > Thank you Victor for the story! > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:18:42 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: (NJC) pro-choice tantra-apso wrote: >Vince and Jerry could you explain why you disagree with Lieve's 'fact'? >Whilst I have no objection to a woman aborting by choice(not my palce to >object or not) I still can't see how a 4mth grown or 3 mth grown is not a >baby. > > > > Why do we disagree with that 'fact'? I cannot speak for Jerry but for me, that is not a fact, not remotely. The last thing we need is a flame war here over this issue. A embryo is an embryo and a fetus is a fetus. When a fetus comes to term and born and draws in the breath of life, it is a living human being. That is the Biblical definition - when breath happens. At 3 months or 4 months along the fetus is certainly potential life and everything that happens is of a serious consequence but an in utero fetus is a fetus, not a baby. If it is miscarried, one mourns the loss of potential life, not life itself. I have been ordained going on 27 years now and worked in foster care along the way and a long, long time ago I learned that real life is far more complicated than sentimentality and abstract definitions given to things removed from reality. I am not going to do battle over this issue. There are many complexities. Those complexities and all considerations that need to be weighed get lost because someone has an emotional reaction to something along the way. In all the years that I have done ministry I have never seen a decision on abortion made frivolously and I deeply, deeply resent that a woman in emotional and medical distress who has to make a profoundly heart rendering difficult decision, that there is any implication that a "baby" is involved. Spare me the vocabulary, I live in reality and those are the definitions with which I work. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:24:06 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) gene mock wrote: >vince! i'm surprised of your hatred for the cubs > The scrubs are not worth the emotion of hate. I love baseball, baseball is the White Sox. There are small children, elderly tourists from Iowa, and drunken frat boys who want to cop a feel of a drunk sorority girl while they urinate in public and vomit wherever, and those are scrub fans. I prefer baseball, maturity, and the White Sox. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:51:33 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: (NJC) pro-choice I am very suprised at your response. i asked a civil question and expected a civil reply. Why didn';t you just say you can't or won't answer the question? I was not baiting you or intending to argue. i really wanted to know the answer. I guess you don't know the answer. it would ahve been more honest of you to say that than to have a go at me for asking a legitimate question. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: "tantra-apso" Cc: "Jerry Notaro" ; "Joni List" Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 1:18 AM Subject: Re: (NJC) pro-choice > tantra-apso wrote: > > >Vince and Jerry could you explain why you disagree with Lieve's 'fact'? > >Whilst I have no objection to a woman aborting by choice(not my palce to > >object or not) I still can't see how a 4mth grown or 3 mth grown is not a > >baby. > > > > > > > > > > > Why do we disagree with that 'fact'? I cannot speak for Jerry but for > me, that is not a fact, not remotely. > > The last thing we need is a flame war here over this issue. > > A embryo is an embryo and a fetus is a fetus. When a fetus comes to > term and born and draws in the breath of life, it is a living human > being. That is the Biblical definition - when breath happens. > > At 3 months or 4 months along the fetus is certainly potential life and > everything that happens is of a serious consequence but an in utero > fetus is a fetus, not a baby. If it is miscarried, one mourns the loss > of potential life, not life itself. > > I have been ordained going on 27 years now and worked in foster care > along the way and a long, long time ago I learned that real life is far > more complicated than sentimentality and abstract definitions given to > things removed from reality. > > I am not going to do battle over this issue. There are many > complexities. Those complexities and all considerations that need to be > weighed get lost because someone has an emotional reaction to something > along the way. In all the years that I have done ministry I have never > seen a decision on abortion made frivolously and I deeply, deeply resent > that a woman in emotional and medical distress who has to make a > profoundly heart rendering difficult decision, that there is any > implication that a "baby" is involved. Spare me the vocabulary, I live > in reality and those are the definitions with which I work. > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:54:16 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! I suppose you are right in relation to ORG. I've written lots of acoustic guitar stuff with complex voicings and open strings that recall Joni, even though most of it is in standard tuning. I think her biggest influence on me, like Dylan's, is an awareness of just how good lyric writing can be; something to aspire to. RR Bitterness? I recoil in bile at the thought! "For every millionaire deciding our fate A thousand dittoheads are pulling his weight" SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > Well, everytime I get a JMDLer's CD, I always listen to it > with a "find the Joni influence" ear. I have to say that while > I heard lots of influences, I didn't hear anything that > reminded me of Joni with the exception of some of your lyrics, > particularly "Mr. Blister" which displayed a biting political > bitterness that reminded me of Joni's lyrics from DED on. > > Bob > > NP: Simon & Garfunkel, "Dangling Conversation" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:18:20 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! **I think her biggest influence on me, like Dylan's, is an awareness of just how good lyric writing can be; something to aspire to.** Amen, and anyone who scans the lyrics on your website will know that you take a good stab at that goal. I had to laugh because your 'dittohead' lyric was the one that jumped out at me on first listen. Bob NP: Prince, "On The Couch"...from Musicology, a very nice return to form for Prince, completing the comeback he started with Beyonce at the Grammy's and playing "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" at the Harrison tribute. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:27:00 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: (NJC) pro-whatever dearest lieve: a huge happy birthday to you. and thank you so much for what you've written, it reflects a lot of what i thought of laura's response. i do not intend to respond to her post, which is a shame because we're in agreement on some issues; for example we agree that the more women rise into the hierarchy of medicine, the better and safer contraception and abortion might be. (that's assuming our power-mad and quite ascendant right wing doesn't write abortion and contraception completely out of legality. it's a huge possibility) but the implication that abortion and contraception are dangerous because men actively want it that way... that's just so so so offensive. laura's being dishonest. i wrote: WHAATTT? i just can't believe you are suggesting that the pro-choice movement is driven by any doctors (mostly men, you say) who WANT to perform abortions. she responded: Hello? Wake up! I didn't say the prochoice movement was driven by doctors. I said the concept of doctors rights is focussed on by some politicians. but her original post said: Prochoice in my experience isn't really about being for women's choices but is rather about the rights of doctors (mostly men) to perform abortions. she also wrote: Doctors who perform abortions are very determined to keep > legislation in their favor accordingly. Politicians have stated that they do not want to > take away these rights of doctors. sounds like my characterization of what laura said was spot on. enough about her. lieve, what you wrote resonated so deeply with me because i'm similarly conflicted. i truly wish that abortion would never happen after the first few weeks. but i do defend my support for early, (i hope) very early abortion. i don't believe that when a microscopic sperm meets a microscopic egg there is a massive transition from two non-lives to one mega-huge-life, worthy of the most radical actions to protect, including bombing clinics. (yeah, there's a prolife action for you) what would be the best situation, of course, would be, abortion, legal, safe and rare. and it could happen if our country had a more calm, intelligent attitude about sex. as follows: sex: a vital positive in every life. worthy of the best research into contraception, abortion, and protection, research that takes mens' and womens' health equally into account. worthy of healthy discussion by all folks on evry side of every political spectrum. but i think that's too much to ask. patrick, sadly np - silence "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >ReckersL@ebrd.com >Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 11:37 AM >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: (NJC) pro-whatever > > >I am copying further down (below the dotted line) a piece from Patrick's >post (with a few words dotted out, only to avoid problems with our IT >systems at work!) which reflects very much my own opinion. >However much I am aware of our male dominated culture and the way that our >laws and social habits are often grounded by male dominance and the male >urge to protect their offspring and their property (which includes >wives), I >cannot accept this attitude which automatically sees everything as a male >conspiracy. No, I do not believe that abortion laws are there for the >benefit of male doctors, and that most women know how to perform successful >abortions themselves. Codswallop. > >BUT BUT BUT BUT.... >(and please read the above paragraph as it was intended: as a brief >generalised introduction, to put what follows into perspective) >I really really have problems with abortion. >Not for any religious belief. Just for one simple fact: after a certain >number of weeks, a baby (call it foetus) in the womb is just as much a baby >as one that's just come out after 9 months. I have posted this before, >because I think it is the one thing that most pro-choice people try to >ignore. >Everything is seen in black and white: some people say "life is holy" and >defend it religeously from conception, other say "it is the woman's body, >she can do what she wants" and they tend to resist any real time limit. I >am glad Patrick said abortion should only happen in the first few weeks. >Yes, in that case, I fully agree. Not that abortion in those cases is just >a piece of cake, but it is probably the best solution to a sorry situation, >certainly if adoption has been properly explored and those services are >available. >But I think a lot of pro-lifers really shy away from that issue. They are >so gun-ho on the "the woman has the only say" principle, that they don't >want to deal with difficult issues. I have mentioned this to some guys who >said "Gosh, I always thought I had no right to have an opinion on the >matter", and were quite confused when I said that I thought that a >foetus of >6 or 7 months should have some rights, should have people, male or female, >speaking out for it... > >I can only sum it up like this, as I know I have done on this list before. >The argument that a foetus is not a baby, that abortion is not murder, is >normally supported by the argument that "The foetus is not yet viable >outside the woman's body, so she can decide" - and I think that is not a >strong enough argument, because you can just as easily say: "A newborn baby >cannot survive without the mother's milk or someone to keep it >warm and fed" >so it's OK to withdraw the food and shelter and let it helplessly die >somewhere... > >I know, if you want to go to the other extreme, you end up with all the >misery Patrick mentioned, and that's not what I want to say. That is why I >think abortion is messy and morally very ambiguous. I know many women who >have had abortions, I might easily have been in the situation too, so I am >not trying to condemn easily, but I am just saying: let's face the harsh >facts, let's not hide completely behind "the woman's choice", let's face >that in fact yes a baby is being killed, and so let's keep it as a >very very >last option, one that should be done very early, when the foetus is only >just a blob, or for very clear medical reasons. >I know, I really do know that now a number of abortions are whims. >For instance, a couple argues, the woman has an abortion to hurt the man. >This happens, and I don't think it's justified. >Another example. I know of a couple where the woman could not commit to >leave her husband and move in with her lover. She said to her >lover: "Maybe >if I were pregnant from you, the circumstances would force me to leave him" >and so they went for it and she got pregnant, but kept postponing to tell >the husband because she still could not make up her mind, and in >the end she >did tell the husband and went to an abortion clinic 3 times without being >able to make up her mind, and in the end, when she was 5 months, >she finally >went through with the abortion. A few days later she and her lover were >both crying over the loss of their baby. They even now blame the abortion >clinic for not having questioned the woman's decision more >thoroughly! This >story still makes me sick when I think of it. It should not have been >allowed, but it was. They played with "making a baby" to help them sort out >a dilemma, and the abortion happened on a whim, did not even sort out >anything... > >Those are the messy aspects that people don't like to face. This is why I >am uncomfortable to just say that it's a woman's choice, always and >absolutely. We need to face the ugliness, even if it makes it less easy to >shout slogans. > >I am still in favour of abortion, but within much stricter limits. I don't >proudly claim it as a right. Nor would I be proud of a grandmother who >aborted 4 times. > >Lieve in London - with the sun shining outside and almost time to go home, >yes! Have a great weekend everybody. > >---- > >Patrick wrote: >i just can't believe you are suggesting that the pro-choice >movement is driven by any doctors (mostly men, you say) who WANT to perform >abortions. that is a really f... harsh accusation. i find it >psychologically scary that you would say such a thing. > >dr. laura, you keep on hinting on some magical leprochaun cure for >pregnancy >that your grandmother had, but i don't believe it's real world. > >to the extent that male doctors are pro-abortion rights (and the few who >are, are quite old now), it's because they saw the horrible consequences of >back-alley abortions before roe v. wade. those girls somehow >didn't get the >memo from your grandma. they got pregnant in the '60s, '50s and earlier, >and terrified of the societal consequences of unwanted pregnancy, >did brutal >things to themselves, with hangers and clorox and shit, and often died of >it. that created a lot of abortion-rights activists among those poor >doctors who had to clean up. those guys are mostly older now, >less than one >tenth of the pro-choice movement. and these few devout pro-choicers do not >deserve your slander. wanting to do abortions, what a f... awful >accusation. > >you didn't even guess at the reasons why the rest of us (the 99% of us who >aren't doctors who practiced medicine in the '60s) might be pro-choice. >we're concerned about control of our own bodies. for women, it's >reproductive control, of course, including the choice to NOT INITIATE >PREGNANCY (which also under attack from pro-lifers). as for us >gays, they'd >rather we just didn't do it. > > > >______________________________________________________________ >This message may contain privileged information. If you have >received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and >return it to the sender. > > >Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting >software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or >damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry >out your own virus checks. >The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views >of the EBRD. >______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:36:08 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) thanks, i always wondered what happened to the ole 49er fans from the kezar days. i like your sense of humor. a mater of fact i like all your senses. take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" To: "gene mock" Cc: "joni" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 5:24 PM Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) > gene mock wrote: > > >vince! i'm surprised of your hatred for the cubs > > > The scrubs are not worth the emotion of hate. I love baseball, baseball > is the White Sox. > > There are small children, elderly tourists from Iowa, and drunken frat > boys who want to cop a feel of a drunk sorority girl while they urinate > in public and vomit wherever, and those are scrub fans. > > I prefer baseball, maturity, and the White Sox. > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:47:09 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: colin powell name calling, njc well, we had the spectacle of kakki running around with her hair on fire because two entrants to moveon's commercial contest compared bush to hitler. 'how evil the left wing is, supporting this behaviour.' when it was pointed out how much the right wing has done that, she denied it. a modest websearch turned up tons of examples, at which point she said, with predictable kakkiness: ""I havent heard, I dont recall, I wasnt aware, I missed them, as far as I'm aware " (thanks to the jmdler who reminded me of this consistent kakki-pattern.) oh by the way, it's been pointed out to me that limbaugh and o'reilly regularly refer to senator clinton as 'hitlery' aren't they nice? well today, i heard an amusing story, apparently from woodward's new book. *** Rumsfeld's Pentagon, led by Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, caught Cheney's nutty fever too. The war party in the Pentagon was no less obsessed than Cheney and Libby with finding the nonexistent link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Powell considered them to be "a separate little government" and referred to them as the "Gestapo office." *** even the right wing calls the right wing nazis. hmmmm.... patrick np - britten, canticles, with an all-canadian cast. thanks to my dear friend roberto, who just a couple of nights ago told me that he too has given up both smoking and drinking. bravo sir! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #188 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)