From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #186 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, April 23 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 186 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: now languid, listless, limp Americans -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] kissing off the music industry -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: now short, smug Americans -- NJC ["tantra-apso" ] Hb Wally (NJC) [Bruce Kimerer ] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc [Em ] NJC -- was Jimmy Carter, now the dead at Dover [] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short ["tantra-apso" ] Being Kevin Spacey -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc ["tantra-apso" ] Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! [SCJoniGuy] Re: oops - My Piano Songs pt 2 - NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] pro-whatever - njc ["patrick leader" ] Re: pro-whatever - njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) ["Victor Joh] Re: pro-whatever - njc ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) [vince <] Smug NJC ["Leslie Neumann" ] Re: oops - My Piano Songs pt 2 - Please have a listen and let me know what you think! NJC ["ron" ] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) [Susan G] Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) [Susan ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:25:23 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: now languid, listless, limp Americans -- NJC Laura writes: << Have you tried Viagra? (gotcha back!) >> Doesn't one need a sex life to make Viagra worthwhile? - --Smurf, the *other* little blue pill . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:38:49 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: kissing off the music industry -- NJC This is from today's gawker.com. I think some of you may be interested. Joni would probably love this story: Bob Rubenstein: Good Riddance To the Music Industry V2, Virgin's independent record label which puts out The Datsuns, Mercury Rev, and Tom Jones, apparently lost an employee today. Fortunately, Bob Rubenstein, the disgruntled employee in question, fired off one of the best "take this job and shove it" emails we've ever been privileged to see. [Update: We've done some checking around (you know, like "journalists" would) and the word is its all true -- even the part about the seances.] - ---------- > From: [Bob Rubenstein] > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:44 PM > Subject: Good Riddance > > > Dear everyone, > > I just wanted to drop you a line to let you know that today is my last day at V2. I was let go this morning. All I can say is this is messed up-I was brought into V2 to specifically work on the Pre) Thing record a few months ago. Everything was setting up nicely on the record, radio was reacting, the single "Faded Love" was kicking in at Active Rock, we created this super cool video game that was going to be on the commercial cd, etc. Then, out of the blue, the main guy from Pre) Thing, Rust Epique dies of a massive heart attack and everything goes haywire. Radio started to back off the single and the CD came out 2 weeks ago and got virtually no press. So, today, they let me go! How messed up is that? Wait, before you think this is nuts, let me leave you with this. So, before i got let go, we had our weekly marketing meeting yesterday. They brought in a psychic person and everyone joined hands and did a seance to talk to Rust! I'm not kidding, even if I wasn't fired I wanted to quit on the spot. They were like "how do we get radio to continue to play this song?" and "Rust please talk to press and tell them to write about your record." I mean come on, that's just rock bottom! > > Whatever! Good riddance to the label and the industry. I'm done with all of this. > > Bob Rubenstein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:53:21 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: now short, smug Americans -- NJC I don't often laugh out loud but really did with this one Smurph! bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:02 PM Subject: now short, smug Americans -- NJC > Laura writes: > > << My daily goal is to make love >> > > An admirable ambition, dear Laura! So much more exciting than *my* daily > goal, which is to get up. > > XO, > > --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:02:35 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > Prochoice in my experience isn't really about being for women's choices but is > rather about the rights of doctors (mostly men) to perform abortions. Laura-cpuld you explain the above for me. i can't make sense of it, or rather can't see how one would come to that thought. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:04:18 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc Well.... The author of this article, Graeme Philipson, says copyright is an antiquated concept that should be forgotten, that composers don't make money from them, and uses the old argument that downloading intellectual property stimulates the record industry, instead of ruining it as the music suits claim. He says that making the argument that robbing artists of their income will stifle creative output is not a good one; after all, Beethoven and Shakespeare never filled out copyright forms. This guy is apparently a computer bigwig from down under, and has written several books on the subject. I would assume they are copyrighted, and he is not giving them away for free, after going to the trouble of writing them. But musicians should roll over and surrender their work. He says artists don't make money from royalties. This is true of performance royalties, which the companies have screwed artists out of since records were invented, by a fine-tuned methodology. Not true of publishing royalties, which must be paid by law (even tho the companies have methods for forcing artists to agree to reduced payments). As to the argument that file-sharing stimulates the record biz, whether this is true or not-and it is hotly debated-does not in any way make it okay to take music without the artist's permission. It costs thousands of dollars and countless hours, weeks and years to make a record. The chances of making your money back are not that great. For someone to advocate stealing that work is irresponsible. The other prevailing mentality is that, since the record companies are greedy bastards (which they are), who regularly screw the artists every chance they get (which they do), then it is okay to steal music. Why not pressure them to reform? Besides, this model is breaking down, as more artists put out their own product without help from major corporations. Almost any musician, indie or major, probably has some of their material available for free, as an inticement. Fine. But if they decide against it, that is their right under the law. I would not have a big guiltfest over downloading music as a part time, amateur type of thing. The college students, etc, who are using T1 lines and campus mainframes to amass huge libraries of illegally downloaded music are another matter. I think that, as broadband technology advances, and begins to seriously impact the multibillion dollar movie industry, more will be done to combat this kind of theft. End of sermon. I have several songs of mine available for free, on Amazon, CD Baby, and on my web site. My "free download of the month" for April is an unreleased cover of Norah Jones' "Don't Know Why" at: http://www.corryhanna.com End of plug. RR Em wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326133722.html > > I found this pretty interesting. Was wondering what some of you all > might think about this. > I personally refuse to download entire albums or even mass quantities > of easily commercially available stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:06:25 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: oops - My Piano Songs pt 2 - Please have a listen and let meknow what you think! NJC I raely have time for male singers. i enjoyed your music. My partner loves piano(plays) so i'll make sure he lsitens too. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:09:35 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc Hi em-assume you were tlaking about copywrite? A pretty dificult subject on this list as oyu point out. Many are firmly against breaking it on the one hand and on the other much music is passed around amongst our members and the two 'sets' are not necessarily different. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:11:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc I hear you Randy, I totally hear you. Em - --- Randy Remote wrote: > Well.... > The author of this article, Graeme Philipson, says copyright is an > antiquated concept that should be forgotten, that composers don't > make money from them, and uses the old argument that downloading > intellectual property stimulates the record industry, instead of > ruining > it as the music suits claim. He says that making the argument that > robbing artists of their income will stifle creative output is not a > good > one; after all, Beethoven and Shakespeare never filled out copyright > forms. > This guy is apparently a computer bigwig from down under, and > has written several books on the subject. I would assume they > are copyrighted, and he is not giving them away for free, after > going to the trouble of writing them. But musicians should roll over > and surrender their work. > He says artists don't make money from royalties. This is true > of performance royalties, which the companies have screwed > artists out of since records were invented, by a fine-tuned > methodology. Not true of publishing royalties, which must be > paid by law (even tho the companies have methods for forcing > artists to agree to reduced payments). > As to the argument that file-sharing stimulates the record biz, > whether this is true or not-and it is hotly debated-does not in > any way make it okay to take music without the artist's permission. > It costs thousands of dollars and countless hours, weeks and > years to make a record. The chances of making your money > back are not that great. For someone to advocate stealing that > work is irresponsible. > The other prevailing mentality is that, since the record > companies are greedy bastards (which they are), who > regularly screw the artists every chance they get (which they > do), then it is okay to steal music. Why not pressure them > to reform? Besides, this model is breaking down, as more > artists put out their own product without help from major > corporations. > Almost any musician, indie or major, probably has some of > their material available for free, as an inticement. Fine. But if > they decide against it, that is their right under the law. > I would not have a big guiltfest over downloading music as > a part time, amateur type of thing. The college students, etc, > who are using T1 lines and campus mainframes to amass huge > libraries of illegally downloaded music are another matter. I > think that, as broadband technology advances, and begins to > seriously impact the multibillion dollar movie industry, more > will be done to combat this kind of theft. > End of sermon. I have several songs of mine available for > free, on Amazon, CD Baby, and on my web site. My "free > download of the month" for April is an unreleased cover of > Norah Jones' "Don't Know Why" at: > http://www.corryhanna.com > End of plug. > RR > > Em wrote: > > > http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326133722.html > > > > I found this pretty interesting. Was wondering what some of you all > > might think about this. > > I personally refuse to download entire albums or even mass > quantities > > of easily commercially available stuff. > ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:14:50 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: Hb Wally (NJC) Happy Birthday, Wally. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:31:19 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short Colin wrote: Prochoice in my experience isn't really about being for women's choices but is rather about the rights of doctors (mostly men) to perform abortions. Laura-cpuld you explain the above for me. i can't make sense of it, or rather can't see how one would come to that thought. Hi Colin, Legislation which is commonly refered to as "prochoice" in the USA guarantees physicians the right include abortion procedures legally in their practices. Doctors who perform abortions are very determined to keep legislation in their favor accordingly. Politicians have stated that they do not want to take away these rights of doctors. Prochoice then becomes not so much about offering choices to women as about offering rights to doctors. I hope that clarifies it for you Colin. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc - --- tantra-apso wrote: > Hi em-assume you were tlaking about copywrite? A pretty dificult > subject on > this list as oyu point out. Hi Colin, well I was mostly interested in the notion that individuals' downloading of music which is floated on the internet doesn't hurt sales for an artist. But the article starts out with that "shorts-freezer" about copyright, which would p_ss off most who in fact hold copyrights or someday hope to hold them. Can't see "us" on the planet without copyright or something similar. People have to earn a living after all. But! it makes me wonder then, like when I go to Amazon.com, they have all those used CD's for sale. And unless I can get new ones cheaper due to "no shipping" charges, I usually DO go for the used and cheap. So I wonder if the artist gets a royalty from that. Or what if I buy old records at the flea market - is that heinous too? Just wondering what people thought. I haven't talked to people about music stuff in a loooong time..since before the internet-for-everyman we have now. So I'm just curious. errr, Colin, I guess you haven't pushed the "button" yet??? :D Em np Pete Seeger "Abiyoyo" on iTunes radio..gotta turn it off I can't handle it. LMAO!!!! no way man.... ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:16:25 -0400 From: Subject: NJC -- was Jimmy Carter, now the dead at Dover Thanks for the link. My prayer now is that President Bush completes the transition to a sovereign Iraq before our presidential election in November. If he gets our young people out of danger by then it will be LOTS better than if he contiunes to think the Iraqis need to be westernized. http://www.drudgereport.com/dover.htm Sincerely, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:43:23 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > Hi Colin, > > Legislation which is commonly refered to as "prochoice" in the USA > guarantees physicians the right include abortion procedures legally in their > practices. Doctors who perform abortions are very determined to keep legislation > in their favor accordingly. Politicians have stated that they do not want to > take away these rights of doctors. Prochoice then becomes not so much about > offering choices to women as about offering rights to doctors. I hope that > clarifies it for you Colin. well i cna see how you came to that, but it is a long stretch to suggest it is about drs and not women. It seems to me that Drs need to be protected from prosecution for helping a woman do what she wants to do. That makes it about women and her rights. It can be twisted away from that, as you have shown, but it doesn't make it a logical twist. > > Love, > Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:47:19 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Em" To: "tantra-apso" ; "jonilist" Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:37 PM Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc > --- tantra-apso wrote: > > Hi em-assume you were tlaking about copywrite? A pretty dificult > > subject on > > this list as oyu point out. > > Hi Colin, well I was mostly interested in the notion that individuals' > downloading of music which is floated on the internet doesn't hurt > sales for an artist. The only stuff(music) I have downloaded is stuff that cannot be bought. I have bought sevral albums because I first heard it on a copy somone from this list sent me. > So I'm just curious. > errr, Colin, I guess you haven't pushed the "button" yet??? > :D > Em still debating it.. what on earth does 'a minotaur gets very sore'mean? Sounds fiulthy so i should get it but don't don't ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:18 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: now languid, listless, limp Americans -- NJC Colin asks: << have you not leanred about self love? >> I know about it, Colin. I've even tried it. I just don't think I am very good at it. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:00:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc Colin wrote about pushing the button: > still debating it.. sigh, well I guess we'll know... when we see orange... > what on earth does 'a minotaur gets very sore'mean? Sounds fiulthy > so i > should get it but don't don't lol! those are lyrics from the Incredible String Band's song "The Minotaur Song". Now, nobody go and download it! I actually own it on 2 pieces of vinyl. But anyway... I am going through a minotaur period in my life, also relates to Leonard Cohen from Bird On A Wire "Like a baby, stillborn, like a beast with his horn I have torn everyone who reached out for me" ..just went through a volatile period..and took that line on as my "siggy". And as for the "gets very sore"..errrr use your imagination. Not above filth here. Although I don't think of it as such. ;) Doing a bunch of minotaur paintings. Pretty soon gotta do one of his dad, a white bull who walked up out of the sea and *did* his momma who was enclosed in a crate at the time. I think thats how it goes. So she was, in a sense, in a "glory hole" of sorts. ::shrug:: hey, you asked right??? 'ats all... Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:03:03 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Being Kevin Spacey -- NJC This is from The Absurdist. I think it's brilliant, but then I do have a cruel and unusual sense of humor. << http://theabsurdist.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_theabsurdist_archive.html#108254882239304744 >> Being Kevin Spacey Inspired by Kevin Spacey's recent dog walking, mugging, recinding mugging incident, I decided that I should walk my dog in Geraldine Mary Harmsworth Park in South London at 4:30 in the morning. My hope is to gain deeper insight in the acclaimed thespian's headspace. Being a rising star of stage and screen myself, I hold Mr. Spacey's acting chops in the highest regard. If all us dedicated to the craft of acting and media insistent heterosexuality could emulate Mr. Spacey's daily routine, perhaps than we all could be as talented as he. Arming myself with a mini tape recorder and miniature toy poodle, Fefe, I set out the South London park to become the actor. The following are the verbal memoirs of my experience of Being Kevin Spacey: 04:30- "It's really dark out now. Fefe seems to not want to pee at all in this park. She is starting to whine and I'm getting the Blair Witch feeling." 04:33- "No sign of anyone approaching. At this hour it seems outrageous that anyone would be out in the cover of night unless they were looking for something specific. Fefe is still agitated. Pee, dammit dog, pee!" 04:45- "Ho hummm. Still no sign of anyone. I'm getting a strange feeling that there are people out there, lurking and checking me out. Like they're waiting to pounce. But not a scary "I'm going to mug you for your cell phone and bonk you on the head" feeling. I can't quite describe it yet." 04:58- "Fefe is really getting agitated. She's literally shaking and walking funny. Her hind legs are all tight like they have rigor mortis. Like she's chenching her ass together. I should take her to the vet about that." 05:03- "What was that? Fefe did you hear that? There's a strange slurping noise coming from behind that tree in the distance. I can't quite figure it out, but it sounds wrong. As I move closer, I hear a strange zipping noise and the hurried patter of running shoes and ducking behind bushes. I pursue knowing Fefe will provide support in fending off any threat of thuggery." 05:04- " Gone. I see nothing. It's still very dark so they could be anywhere really. I remain alert and patient." 05:10- "There! Rustling in the bushes!" 05:11- "Goodness! A strange man has emerge and is approaching. I grip Fefe's leash ready to swing the small dog like a bull whip at a moment's notice." 05:12- A dialogue ensues: Man: "Hey man. How's it going." The Absurdist: "Not bad. Nice night to walk a dog." Man: smirkingly "Yeah, real nice." The Absurdist: with sly inquisitiveness "You don't seem to have a dog out with you tonight. What are you doing out here tonight?" Man: "Looking for a little action. You?" The Absurdist: "I guess you could say that." Man: gestures to bush "I think I could offer you a little bit of that." The Absurdist: .... Man: touches the front of my cotton Eddie Bauer chinos "Are you ready for a little action?" The Absurdist: "Is this when you take my phone?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:03:05 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc > And as for the "gets very sore"..errrr use your imagination. Not above > filth here. Although I don't think of it as such. > ;) > Doing a bunch of minotaur paintings. Pretty soon gotta do one of his > dad, a white bull who walked up out of the sea and *did* his momma who > was enclosed in a crate at the time. I think thats how it goes. So she > was, in a sense, in a "glory hole" of sorts. > ::shrug:: hey, you asked right??? so it was as i thouhgt.....!!!! bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:06:41 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: now languid, listless, limp Americans -- NJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 12:53 AM Subject: Re: now languid, listless, limp Americans -- NJC > Colin asks: > > << have you not leanred about self love? >> > > > I know about it, Colin. I've even tried it. I just don't think I am very good > at it. you must not be doing it right. I am sure you can find a film on the net to give you some tips. Or maybe someone will offer a helpoing hand.... bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:34:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Being Kevin Spacey -- NJC what happened to kevin? did he come out yet? wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Smurfycopy@aol.com > Enviado el: Jueves, 22 de Abril de 2004 09:03 p.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Being Kevin Spacey -- NJC > > > This is from The Absurdist. I think it's brilliant, but then I do have a > cruel and unusual sense of humor. > > << > http://theabsurdist.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_theabsurdist_archive.h > tml#108254882239304744 >> > > Being Kevin Spacey > > Inspired by Kevin Spacey's recent dog walking, mugging, recinding mugging > incident, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:34:12 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: article about music/file sharing etc njc, now Randy rocks! **End of plug. Beginning of plug - I've been enjoying Randy's CD for awhile now...it's called "Old Road Gone" and you can buy it and/or hear samples here: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/hanna I particularly love the "looseness" of this record - to me it's a throwback to the folk-rock styles of Jefferson Airplane, CSNY, Moby Grape, that whole west coast rock that I'm sure Randy grew up with. Not the sort of thing I'm used to hearing much anymore - definitely has a live feel to it as opposed to a studio feel (that's a good thing - lots of artists go for that and not many succeed). The songs, vocals, and musicians are very genuine - it feels very authentic. And Randy's vocal styles always keep me guessing...he goes from sounding like Lou Reed to Iggy Pop to John Mellencamp, but that's not to say it's derivative. You can tell that he's really feeling what he's singing. Some great jams and solos, and of course some sharp and biting lyrics too which should be no surprise. The SCJoniguy says check it out. Bob NP: Red House Painters, "Smokey" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:07:02 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: oops - My Piano Songs pt 2 - NJC Thanks for posting the link, Owen...I enjoyed these songs a lot. A lot. I'll say you're Britain's answer to Ben Folds, with some Badly Drawn Boy tossed in there too. I was expecting demo-sounding stuff, but these are finely polished, with lots of additional audio textures, all used to good effect. I love that you sing with your accent - much preferred to hearing someone speak with an accent and sing without it. I love that you use your piano to drive both the melody and the rhythm. Very nice skills, my man. Lemme know when the full deal comes out! Bob NP: Owen Duff, "Any Captain Worth His Due" (for the 2nd time!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:27:24 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: pro-whatever - njc patrick, veering from warm-hearted jmdl-lover to outraged shit-stirrer... laura says: >Prochoice in my experience isn't really about being for women's >choices but is >rather about the rights of doctors (mostly men) to perform abortions. > WHAATTT? i just can't believe you are suggesting that the pro-choice movement is driven by any doctors (mostly men, you say) who WANT to perform abortions. that is a really fucking harsh accusation. i find it psychologically scary that you would say such a thing. dr. laura, you keep on hinting on some magical leprochaun cure for pregnancy that your grandmother had, but i don't believe it's real world. to the extent that male doctors are pro-abortion rights (and the few who are, are quite old now), it's because they saw the horrible consequences of back-alley abortions before roe v. wade. those girls somehow didn't get the memo from your grandma. they got pregnant in the '60s, '50s and earlier, and terrified of the societal consequences of unwanted pregnancy, did brutal things to themselves, with hangers and clorox and shit, and often died of it. that created a lot of abortion-rights activists among those poor doctors who had to clean up. those guys are mostly older now, less than one tenth of the pro-choice movement. and these few devout pro-choicers do not deserve your slander. wanting to do abortions, what a fucking awful accusation. you didn't even guess at the reasons why the rest of us (the 99% of us who aren't doctors who practiced medicine in the '60s) might be pro-choice. we're concerned about control of our own bodies. for women, it's reproductive control, of course, including the choice to NOT INITIATE PREGNANCY (which also under attack from pro-lifers). as for us gays, they'd rather we just didn't do it. no sex at all. the pro-life evil, in which you are complicit, gets worse. one of bush's first acts as president was to cut the u.s. contribution to world family planning funds to $0.00. the excuse was that the funds supported abortions, but that had been roundly disproved. the results of his action, shown in several studies, is that there will be MORE abortions worldwide, (by the hundreds of millions) and more dangerous abortions. more abortions in which the women will die. is this pro-life? do you support that shit? that's right, to appease the pro-lifers, bush will cause more abortions worldwide, and more pregnant women will die worldwide. and the people at the top of these movements all know this. but bush made his cynical gesture. no one (and i do mean no one, laura) is pro-abortion. i need to say this again laura, and to anyone else who considers themselves pro-life. no one is pro-abortion. not those men laura mentioned, those poor now-old doctors who took a stand against coathanger abortions. not the leftists, including gay men like me who really don't even have to care about this shit. and yet choose to. each and every one of us pro-choicers hates that abortion ever might be needed. i support contraceptive research, and a reasonable approach to sex education. but we pro-choicers recognize that abortion might be necessary, and should be available in extremity. legal yet rare. i want it never to happen after the first couple of weeks. i want ru-486 and morning after pills to be available and respected as the decent response to accidents, and more than that i want contraception to be so good and so respected that abortion DOESN'T HAPPEN. but you call us pro-abortion. you, laura, and others who want to legitimize the right-wing hatred of abortion (sorry bree, but you're in this gang, too) often say, 'well this side says this, but that side says that' but the hypocrisy is not equally divided right-left, and i can prove it. ask yourself: which side does more to make safe, successful contraception a reality? pro-life? not a fucking chance. look at the actions of the pro-life and the pro-choice movements and ask yourself which one really reduces abortions. look again at that bush decision above. the clinton-supported policy reduced abortions. bush removed funding, and more abortions will happen. his right-wing supporters are ecstatic. if you want to reduce abortion, support contraception research and its availability. otherwise, support bush and his abortion-increasing policies. it's your choice, contraception rights or baby-killer. and how does it feel to be called that? patrick, angry and probably incendiary >Prochoice in my experience isn't really about being for women's >choices but is >rather about the rights of doctors (mostly men) to perform abortions. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:15:56 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: pro-whatever - njc In a message dated 4/22/04 9:30:52 PM Central Daylight Time, pleader@nyc.rr.com writes: patrick, veering from warm-hearted jmdl-lover to outraged shit-stirrer... Hi Patrick. It is a bunch of shit for sure. WHAATTT? i just can't believe you are suggesting that the pro-choice movement is driven by any doctors (mostly men, you say) who WANT to perform abortions. that is a really fucking harsh accusation. i find it psychologically scary that you would say such a thing. Boo! Hello? Wake up! I didn't say the prochoice movement was driven by doctors. I said the concept of doctors rights is focussed on by some politicians. Corruption of a good movement is not beyond the prochoice movement. dr. laura, you keep on hinting on some magical leprochaun cure for pregnancy that your grandmother had, but i don't believe it's real world. My grandmother wasn't a leprochaun st. patrick. She was a tough, Lithuanian woman with a lot of common sense. And, I didn't say it was a general cure. I said it was her way. It was her real world. And, she did it successfully and not only that but she wasn't hiding it from the family. I'm sure there were many more like her who did hide it. It isn't that hard to induce an abortion. Just read the things pregnant women are not supposed to do, and you'll know this. it's because they saw the horrible consequences of back-alley abortions Yes, they SAW. What they didn't see was my grandmother and others like her, or they might have arrested them. Women aren't fools like they are made out to be. I would imagine more women have had abortions than haven't. Spontaneous or induced, abortion is a natural fact, very natural for women. We don't need men to help us have abortions. did brutal things to themselves, with hangers and clorox and shit, and often died of it. Yes. And shit makes the news so to speak. that created a lot of abortion-rights activists among those poor doctors who had to clean up. Good for them. How many were women doctors? How many were young women doctors? I can guarantee not very many. Men with a solution... I don't buy it. Sorry. those guys are mostly older now, less than one tenth of the pro-choice movement. Guys... there it is. and these few devout pro-choicers do not deserve your slander. wanting to do abortions, what a fucking awful accusation. I know. It is just terrible of me to bust out these old guys. I've worked with plenty of them... been taught by plenty of them. Love those old guys! I'm just thankful that women are populating the med school classes more and more as time goes on. We will see some real social change as this happens in regard to women's reproductive rights and regarding our medical understanding of the female body in medicine. including the choice to NOT INITIATE PREGNANCY (which also under attack from pro-lifers). The pill perhaps? An invention by men to control women's bodies... In time, our good women doctors might come up with a with a pill for men so they don't produce sperm. I bet it will be so good it won't increase the men's risks of breast and prostate cancer. Like I said, I see through the concept of people being prolife. as for us gays, they'd rather we just didn't do it. no sex at all. Yes, there is a lot of ground to be had in the realm of society and medicine understanding and supporting gays. But you don't need heterosexuals to do your thinking for you along these lines any more then women need or needed men. the results of his action, shown in several studies, is that there will be MORE abortions worldwide, (by the hundreds of millions) and more dangerous abortions. more abortions in which the women will die. is this pro-life? do you support that shit? No. I don't believe in Bush's prolife malarky. No, I don't support his shit. no one (and i do mean no one, laura) is pro-abortion. No one... I bet you could find one in there somewhere... my grandmother at least. i need to say this again laura, and to anyone else who considers themselves pro-life. no one is pro-abortion. I don't classify myself as prolife Patrick. I am pro-woman. but you call us pro-abortion. you, laura, and others who want to legitimize the right-wing hatred of abortion (sorry bree, but you're in this gang, too) often say, 'well this side says this, but that side says that' I never called you pro-abortion. Please, don't put me in a box with right wingers. I'm a liberal moderate. The right wingers would tear me up in that box. Bree would just try to kiss me though... and of course, I wouldn't resist. it's your choice, contraception rights or baby-killer. and how does it feel to be called that? Are you calling me names Patrick? Where is generation X when you need them?! Oh Jennifer... Jennifer... Where are you? Please don't give up on medical school. We need women like you! patrick, angry I'm sorry what I said made you angry Patrick. I'm really sorry. Please, forgive me. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:31:32 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) I was ringing someone up at Whole Foods and she was getting some money out to pay when she looked at one of the dollar bills. In big black magic marker, someone had scrawled across the face of the bill, The Chicago Cubs Suck! We got a good chuckle out of that. Victor Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:38:53 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: pro-whatever - njc On the Neal Boortz program that airs on WSB AM 750 out of Atlanta all kinds of things are discussed, some highly controversial topics. However, there is one rule and that is abortion is never discussed and never brought up. The reason being is that there is nothing that either party can say that is going to change the mind of the other. Victor, thrilled not to be angry at anyone, let alone someone hundreds of miles away who I've never met before Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:44:51 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) Victor Johnson wrote: >I was ringing someone up at Whole Foods and she was getting some money out >to pay when she looked at one of the dollar bills. In big black magic >marker, someone had scrawled across the face of the bill, The Chicago Cubs >Suck! > >We got a good chuckle out of that. > > > "The Cubs suck" would be a far better motto on our money than "In God we trust." It was a proud moment in my life when my grandson, in June 2002, got his first "Cubs Suck" T-shirt. Thank you Victor for the story! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:59:09 -0700 From: "Leslie Neumann" Subject: Smug NJC Bree Mcdonough wrote: >For oil...???? Please.. that is ridiculous. > Randy Remote wrote: and the fact that Bush and Cheney are oilmen and Iraq has the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world is a coincidence. We are smack dab in the middle of the Middle East for humanitarian reasons. Or was it WMD? Or was it 9-11? Al Queda? I keep forgetting. I heard: we're building 19 military bases in Iraq politicians talking about instating the draft ************************* i think it all boils down to oil. Our country can't run without it. Can't live with it either. Paid $2 a gallon at the pump tonite. They got us over a barrel. My European friends laugh at me. They're paying alot more- they say we've got to stop guzzling. of course they live in postage stamp sized countries with alot better public transportation. But our own blood spilled heavily for it??? And buried under a guise to mislead the people? ? Just the strong doin' what they can, and the weak sufferin' what they must. ~ _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:32:41 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: oops - My Piano Songs pt 2 - Please have a listen and let me know what you think! NJC hi thanks owen. that was tasty i was on the phone to a friend when the first track started playing. (one of the download freaks destroying the music bizz - how ironic that his hard drive just packed up destroying thaousands of tracks most of which hes probably never played & never would) when he heard it in the background he asked who it was. i told him owen duff. ahh, he (kind of) wittily replied - its duff - no i replied actually, its pretty damn good!!! and it really is - i'd love to hear more & certainly wouldnt hesitate to buy a cd ......... & im generally not that wild about piano!! the talent on this list is actually quite amazing........ ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:39:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) Well it is legal tender and it does say in God We Trust - so it MUST be true! Victor! I can't believe you started this sooo early in the season - but thanks for Maddux anyway - he is really tearing it up - (sarcasm totally intended)! LOL! I love the underdog ... betting that Joni would be a White Sox fan and hate the Scubbies! All that freaking red white and blue -- someone get me a motion sickness bag! Peace, Susan Victor Johnson wrote: I was ringing someone up at Whole Foods and she was getting some money out to pay when she looked at one of the dollar bills. In big black magic marker, someone had scrawled across the face of the bill, The Chicago Cubs Suck! We got a good chuckle out of that. Victor Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:53:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: For White Sox fans and people who hate the Chicago Cubs(njc) OH MY GOD VINCE!! Great minds think alike - especially when they are White Sox minds! You beat me to the punch - although we must have been writing this at virtually the same time - LOL! And let me add my godson Michael (7years old) to our little White Sox cult - truly a believer in the "Cubs Suck" mentality! He is his aunties boy all right! And a Beatle fan to boot - with Aunite Susan pushing a little Joni on him as well. Thanks Victor - see what you started already! LOL! Peace Susan vince wrote: "The Cubs suck" would be a far better motto on our money than "In God we trust." It was a proud moment in my life when my grandson, in June 2002, got his first "Cubs Suck" T-shirt. Thank you Victor for the story! Vince Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #186 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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