From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #183 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, April 22 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 183 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Giving JT his due, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: icu njc ["tantra_apso" ] Re: Where are you in the pictures? [Em ] Re: Giving JT his due, njc [Em ] Re: Giving JT his due, njc [Em ] RE: joni- a poet? now NJC, but with Dylan content ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: You brush against a stranger... [Chris Marshall ] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short ["Bree Mcdonough" ] A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try ["Kate Cox" ] Re: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try [SCJoniGuy@aol.c] NJC Re: icu njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: icu njc ["tantra-apso" ] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short ["tantra-apso" ] a BIG birthday wish for BIG Walt -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: Smug Americans, NJC - now short ["patrick leader" ] Re: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try [Catherine McKay] RE: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try ["patrick leader] Re: A Musical Gift njc [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short [Lori Fye ] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short [Lori Fye ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:14:25 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Giving JT his due, njc JT crossed my radar for the first time in 1970 when Sweet Baby James was released. I was a melancholy 15 year old and "Fire And Rain" was the first time I ever heard anyone else talk about depression. That song was the gateway. Looking back, it was probably really good that he had some light songs on that album too like "Oh Susanna". If that first big album had been from Leonard Cohen I might not have made it out of my teens. Timeline: 68 "James Taylor" released 69 Joni meets James, Kate saw him on Cape Cod 70 "Sweet Baby James", released Dec. 20th, 1970: Joni & James aired on BBC; incl. live "California" w/JT June 71 Joni's BLUE released, incl. studio "California" w/JT 71 Many of songs on Carole King's TAPESTRY were (c) so Mitchell/Taylor Boy-and-Girl Choir put back vocals on "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" around then. BTW, Columbia has a pretty nice site for JT at jamestaylor.com Lama Kate said, >i remember listening lots to james in the summer of 69... on cape cod... maybe he was known in that part of the world but not in the rest yet?> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:59:53 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: Re: icu njc bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > > I agree, you shouldn't tell the docs anything about > your past that isn't directly related to your heart. I called my gp, who then called an ambulance. They already have my medical records. I don't have to tell them anyhting. The first thing on my records, as a warning, is my mental health diagnosis. It is basically a red flag saying'tread carefully'. It's the first thing any medic would read. I don't know exactly what it says. Maybe it says 'warning -liable to freak' or some such. Anyway, thank you for your message and thanks to everyone else who sent me messages. I feel somewhat better today tho Monday and Tuesday I felt pretty crap. It is difficult to be aware of you heart all the time and wondering if it is going to stop or whatever. I keep telling msyelf it'll be quick and beats having cancer. NOT that i am about to drop dead from this but i find it hard not to think about it. I am driving off to Denmark on 16th June to look at some pups so ahve been planning the route and hotels and stuff. I enjoy that. Spend ages on the pc with the route planner(and a map) trying all sorts of different ways. This time I am going up (from calais) into the Netherlands(holland) and across into Germany on the A1 instead of going thru that cluster of industrial cities in germany.The distance is more or less the same. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:35:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Where are you in the pictures? - --- Susan Guzzi wrote: > > Now the one of the other songs that give me a visual - as if they all > don't, but in the case of the ones I intend to mention - it's a > constant repeating scene. In the case of - Night in the City" ... I > see this exact block in NYC - and picture a young bohemian artist > kind of couple, running joyously down the stairs of a building, I > think its on St. Marks Street - from upstairs above the old Orlins > cafe, which is no longer there from what I hear. But so what I aint > 25 anymore either. I think its just twilight and they are off to > walk and dance and dine and make love on a rooftop - later. And > well they may be a little high on life or some herbal influence - but > they are joyous - in love - and on top of the world! Hi Susan. and errr, good morning..my its early but I'm reading the Joni list posts and doing coffee. Yeah "Night In the City" gives me flashes too, back to when I first left home and was living in Germany (Cologne) suposedly going to art school, which I did, but mostly, sheesh, what can I say...drinking BEER and making love and going out at night and just letting lights flash on my eyelids. Used to play/sing that song too myself...it probably sounded very funny. Kinda high energy now that I think back. Used to get my ex to do the "double vocal" part..... lmao!!!!!!!!!! I think it sounded very hilarious.. Actually I *bet* its on the "Embarrassing Tape"..we had some friends who produced sound for tv cartoons over there and they recorded us for some reason. So its pretty funny, our amateur efforts rather cleanly recorded..and then they had audience clapping tracks and after a couple of the cuts they stuck on this HUGE clapping - musta been taken from like a symphony performance or something....LOL!!!!!!!!! I haven't been able to ever listen to that tape for reasons of total mortification, and I hoped all along she'd destroy it. But maybe its time to listen just for a laugh, and to remember lost youth. Happy Wednesday, all! Thanks for sharing Susan. :) Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 05:05:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Giving JT his due, njc - --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > JT crossed my radar for the first time in 1970 when Sweet Baby James > was > released....... snip...... HI Lama, enjoyed reading your post, your history... and yes its definately great that JT had his sunny side. A dark boy with a beautiful sunny side. (or so it seemed) Speaking of JT, wondering if anyone besides me TOTALLY and completely PREFERS the more energetic and stripped down versions of "Something In the Way She Moves" and "Carolina ON my Mind" on that first album.. the one on Apple records? as opposed to the later versions? I feel so thankful they WERE that way, because other stuff on that albume certainly suffered from over-production. Over production = baaaad. (to me) :) Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 05:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Giving JT his due, njc OK this is sad when I start answering my own posts.. Was thinking, actually maybe the versions on that album were kinda more "produced" in a way (had the strings and all)..but I don't know what it is, they just have a lighter feel to them. They are "perkier" beyond simply being performed "faster". In this case, perkier seems better. Or? :) sorry for possibly over-posting... em - --- Em wrote: > Speaking of JT, wondering if anyone besides me TOTALLY and completely > PREFERS the more energetic and stripped down versions of "Something > In > the Way She Moves" and "Carolina ON my Mind" on that first album.. > the > one on Apple records? as opposed to the later versions? > I feel so thankful they WERE that way, because other stuff on that > albume certainly suffered from over-production. > Over production = baaaad. (to me) ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:17:36 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: joni- a poet? now NJC, but with Dylan content You mean like this? Now they asked me to read a poem At the sorority sister's home I got knocked down and my head was swimmin' I wound up with the Dean of Women Yippee! I'm a poet, and I know it. Hope I don't blow it. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Leslie Neumann Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:04 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: joni- a poet? Maybe not first and foremost. But look at so many stanzas and verses. Her lines, her rhymes, and rhythms. Yes i wld say she's a poet. The same way Dylan is a poet. She definately has had alot to say, and should be indoctrinated into a secret Society. ~ _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:28:24 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: when i look down that road-missy manchester-njc I'm a little behind the times...great review ..Mack. I will purchase this from Amazon today. Of course you could sell me on chocolate covered doopey..I'd buy it. I don't know much about Melissa Manchester the person but after reading her words below... she sounds like a person I would want to investigate further. Love to you and all.. Bree >She's done it again. Newest album is as superb, emotional, and beautiful >as >each one before. Her words on her latest--"I walked away from making >records >ten years ago. But I never, ever lost faith that singing and writing songs >is >what I was put on this earth to do. I tried to please people instead of >believing in my own strength, until the only thing I could do was walk >away. >Everybody wants to write a hit song, but in Nashville people want to write >the >best song. It was there I found my voice again. And for that, I will be >eternally grateful." > >'Home to Myself", that tune of perfection from a no less flawless debut >album. >Fantastic album. Fans, buy it. No regrets will you have and to do without >will leave you empty in that one spot within you that only this album can >fill. Non-fans, become so. Sorry you will never be. > >np: missy-when I look down that road. _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar  FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:30:33 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: FW: Giving JT his due, njc I prefer the Apple versions. I kind of like the production on the album, too. I think I'll go put it on the turntable right now! Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Em Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:22 AM To: jonilist Subject: Re: Giving JT his due, njc OK this is sad when I start answering my own posts.. Was thinking, actually maybe the versions on that album were kinda more "produced" in a way (had the strings and all)..but I don't know what it is, they just have a lighter feel to them. They are "perkier" beyond simply being performed "faster". In this case, perkier seems better. Or? :) sorry for possibly over-posting... em - --- Em wrote: > Speaking of JT, wondering if anyone besides me TOTALLY and completely > PREFERS the more energetic and stripped down versions of "Something > In > the Way She Moves" and "Carolina ON my Mind" on that first album.. > the > one on Apple records? as opposed to the later versions? > I feel so thankful they WERE that way, because other stuff on that > albume certainly suffered from over-production. > Over production = baaaad. (to me) ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:01:03 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: You brush against a stranger... Texas are/were huge in the UK (and I guess Europe too). I'd not be surprised to here that Charlene Spiteri is a Joni fan although I've nothing to back that up. In fact, one of the soundtrack songs from Love Actually was a Texas song. http://www.texas.uk.com/ is the official site. etc. - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:40:51 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short >I think Bree knows that, regardless that we're two lesbians of otherwise >different political tribes, I have the highest regard for her and her right >to >believe what she believes. Thanks for outing me. ;-) At least I HOPE Bree know this -- and Bree, if you >didn't know that, I'm telling you NOW! : ) Yes..I know this..we kissed..remember? :-) >I've been meaning to respond to your post, Laura, and have been thinking >about >it. I didn't mean to imply that 9/11 was BREE's fault because she *may* >(or >may not) be an example of an American who doesn't care what the world >thinks. >She wrote that she doesn't care, but I'm not sure she didn't mean she >doesn't >care what people on the JMDL think. Yes,I do care what people here think. The world..well..do they really care what we think? My rather flip comment actually had to do with this global fight on terrorism. I stand firm with my belief: That now is the time to act. So when I wrote "Frankly..I don't care what the world thinks" it was with terrorism in mind. In my mind right is right... even if most people think otherwise. Marianne and I had quite a heated discussion last night about the removal of Hussein. In fact..I said something that I later regretted and told her I was sorry..AND I LOVE YOU. I berated her some or accused her..that she (liberals) *talk about helping the oppressed..the downtrodden..but it is ..or a lot of the time........... just talk. (btw..we really listen to each other ..there is a lot of mutual respect.. She will give me five minutes to explain my view and I give her two. It works out great.) ;-) I went on to say that guy...you know the litany...he gassed his own people...he invaded Kuwait..at one time he had WMD's....he harbors terrorists..THE WORLD was convinced he had WMD....he refused UN inspections..... he tortured..maimed..raped..... (at least under his approval and command. Somtimes SH watched videos gleefully while people were being tortured) What more justification do people need? Having Marianne in my life...Mack...I want to understand... I asked her is it because Bush is a republican? You can't sign on to this because you dislike Bush so much?! He's a Christian..is that it? He's a symbol for people divided by the culture war? We got nowhere,...she ain't changing my mind on this and I'm sure not going to change her mind. So Joni is why I came here..and it is Joni why I stay. AND ...all 800 plus of you too.. Love and admiration to all.. Bree >Lori, >tired of all of it _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:59:05 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Joni a poet JOni is a poet... Valery..some one whose literary theories I had to look at... Said that "poetry is words dancing" and I would say that is so. The beauty of Joni is that if you cannot sing her words you can learn them as poetry and they work well... her use of all the poetic devices within the framework of song denotes to me, a strongly poetic lean on how they are originated. I think that is true of all great poems... that ..... They can translate into song....I used to doubt this until I heard one of my favourite poems (The lady of Shallot) released from its' sometimes leaden (but always beautiful) schema by Loreena McKennit.... It is sublime. She also sings "Dark night of the soul" a poem by St John of the Cross and that is just astonishing.... People are too afraid of embracing poetry thinking it always has to rhyme....you can make a poem out of seventeen sylables..(Haiku). My mother wrote exquisite haiku and this is my favourite one of hers.. Your voice when we speak accross the pain of distance flowers in my heart. Not conventional in the western sense but it is still poetry to the Japanese.. POetry is not one thing, it cannot be defined as one thing. The same poem, as will the same song, will mean something different to those who read it. The discussion about the imagery of the "bottle and spoon" threw up several different interpretations. Jonis music is more erudite than mere songstery... she paints with words and then hangs them on the magic of her music and the fabric woven from the best musicians.... Does it matter..... if it curls in your ear like a lovers voice and leaves its memory in your heart? Lucy (back from a hectic day driving up to Essex on the M25.. which is our version of the LA freeway.. in other words an enormous parking lot... but lacking the honye limbed Californians and a number of palm trees.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:57:48 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try Hello! I haven't posted here before, but I was really excited to find all these intelligent conversations you guys were having about Joni Mitchell, and I just thought I would add my thoughts on the issue of whether or not she is poet. I think that sometimes she is, and sometimes she isn't. I don't mean that she sometimes tries and fails, or that she is inconsistent; I just mean that she has different intentions for all her songs, and each involve different elements of herself. I read an interview with Joni on the site recently - http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=175 - in which she said that, if she were to publish an anthology of the lyrics she considered to be poetry, she would include 'Hejira' but not 'Help Me'. I think this statement is self-explanatory. With 'Help Me', I think Joni intended to create a feel-good pop song; with 'Hejira', she wanted to explore and analyse the contents of her consciousness in a more profound and intensive way. In this way, 'Hejira' and many other songs fit the criteria of poetry which Nuriel gave, although in different ways: >the profession today >commonly adopts an amalgam of three distinct viewpoints. >Traditionalist argue that a poem is an expression of a vision that is >rendered in a form intelligible and pleasurable to others and >so likely to arouse kindred emotions. For Modernists, a poem is an >autonomous object that may or may not represent the real world >but is created in language made distinctive by its complex web of >references. Postmodernists look on on poems as collages of current >idioms that are intriguing but self-contained: they employ, challenge and/or >mock preconceptions, but refer to nothing beyond >themselves. I also really agree with Ron's point that: >if i can read the lyrics without the music, and still really enjoy it, then >its poetry to me. Of course it's impossible to imagine how you would respond to Joni's lyrics if you'd never heard the music, but I really think that it would be possible to read the lyrics from STOAS, Blue, FTR, and HOSL (these are just my personal choices) and to experience the wholeness of their meaning without losing anything from the lack of music. On those albums, either the lyrics or the music could stand alone in their brilliance: their combination is so perfect, accurate, sensitive and beautiful that sometimes it's too intense to bear! Some of Jim Morrison's lyrics (released on record and unreleased) have been published, and they lose nothing in strength or impact from a lack of musical accompaniment. His first gravestone in Paris (before it was stolen) bore the words 'Poet and dreamer'. Joni should certainly be accredited for being a poet, as well as a songwriter, musician and artist. She has so many different elements, and she is both talented and free enough that they never contradict each other. Kate Cox in London - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one Premium Services. Find out more here. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:24:35 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: icu njc Colin, Sorry to hear your news. About all I can say is "fingers crossed" really. And... On 21 Apr 2004, at 3:00, Catherine McKay wrote: > Doctors give little credence to anyone who has ever > had mental health issues. It seems anyone that has had > any mental illness, of any kind, is considered to be a > whacko from then on. I really think this is in the sweeping generalisation category - certainly I know a whole bunch of people in the medical profession who would be rather offended by this. And, true, there probably are some older doctors who exhibit this sort of prejudice. But all shouldn't be tarred with the same brush... - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:29:01 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try That was a wonderful post, Kate...first of all welcome to the discussion and please keep it coming. Second I agree with all of these thoughts about poetry & Joni as a poet. I think it's possible for her to paint with words and music, by the same token she can paint with words OR music. In the case of Hejira (and with most or her work as presented by her), she does both. Obviously, her music stands alone as there are many many wonderful instrumental interpretations of her work. By the same token, her words stand on their own as well. If it's no big deal that her songs are performed without the lyrics, I don't see that it's any big deal that they're also legitimate poetry without the music. After all, how many composers have published books of their lyrics? Certainly the Cole Porters, Irving Berlins, Ira Gershwins but in the modern pop arena very few have...Joni, Dylan, Springsteen...I don't know them all but I'll bet it's a darn short list. Bob NP: Stan Ridgway, "Running With The Carnival" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:41:16 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: icu njc **It seems anyone that has had > any mental illness, of any kind, is considered to be a > whacko from then on.** I read a really interesting article last night (in a magazine that I can't mention since it takes such a beating in this forum) about a Doctor whose specialty is working with people who have had near-death experiences. Typically when an adult has a NDE nobody believes the visions that the patients have had, but this guy focuses on children who don't have the frame of reference or the sense of guile to create the visions as an adult could. Some pretty amazing stuff. There's just so much about the human brain we don't know. Bob NP: Stan Ridgway, "That Big 5-0" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:41:13 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: icu njc From: "Chris Marshall" > I really think this is in the sweeping generalisation > category - certainly I know a whole bunch of people in the > medical profession who would be rather offended by this. > And, true, there probably are some older doctors who exhibit > this sort of prejudice. But all shouldn't be tarred with the > same brush... of course not all drs have the same prejudices, but many, many of them do-including young ones. Even if the prejudice isn't obvious. yes many young drs seem more aware and accpetin of mental health issues but it is only a surface thing, from my experience. they still don't treat you as a whole being and don't give you the same respect. It can be as simple as assuming you are upset because of your 'mental problem' and not because you have reacted the way a so called 'normal' person would in the same circumstance. in other words, these Drs who appear to think differently, actually don't. Assuming they can discuss you and your problems without asking, just assuming that reactions are always to do with the 'illness' and not to do with the beahviour or attitude of the Dr. The power play is still there. Over the last 30 years, I have met many many drs, in various circumstances, and whilst many of them have been nice people(some not), they all, without exception, have had mental health issue prejudices. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:55:00 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ In my mind right is right... even if most > people think otherwise. but doesn't rather leave one's mind closed? > > I went on to say that guy...you know the litany...he gassed his own > people...he invaded Kuwait..at one time he had WMD's.... which the USA and UK sold him..... he harbors > terrorists.. no proof at all of that THE WORLD was convinced he had WMD... NO they were not-the UK and the USA were. .he refused UN > inspections..... so would the uSA and UK he tortured..maimed..raped..... So do many other despots in other countries-including our own(thinking of torture)--which of these other countries should we invade next? Suadi Arabia? (at least under his > approval and command. Somtimes SH watched videos gleefully while people > were being tortured) It is good that Saddam is gone. > > What more justification do people need? That is a phoney justification. It was not the reason for the war. That argument does not hold water. >> > I asked her is it because Bush is a republican? You can't sign on to this > because you dislike Bush so much?! He's a Christian..is that it? He's a > symbol for people divided by the culture war? I would find being asked those questions offensive to say the elast. they strongly imply that you think we can't think, that we are incapable of itegrity, that our objections have nothing to do with genuine arguments but are merely because we 'dislike' a man or his religion. However, if thought about, it shows much more about where your thinking is, that you just cannot see how an honourable decent person could think differently from you. This is just why we have so much strife in the world. In effect, you are saying 'you think differently from me-thus you are bad'. Sad. (oh and i don't for one minute think you meant that deliberately-just that you didn't think it thru to the end.) This war was not fought for honourable reasons at all. however, IF any good comes out of it, the fact Saddam has gone has got to be it. That does not jusify it tho. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:12:08 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short Bree wrote: In my mind right is right... even if most people think otherwise. Some of the greatest thinkers have had your same mindset Bree and swam against the current only to come up with awesome accomplishments that we use and take for granted today. Marianne and I had quite a heated discussion last night about the removal of Hussein. Is there anything other than heat between the two of you? You know the cerebral cortex has what are considered to be a left and a right brain all within the same skull... I can feel the energy all the way down south! (liberals) *talk about helping the oppressed..the downtrodden..but it is ..or a lot of the time........... just talk. I have a friend who pointed out to me one time that the liberal idea of pro-choice is really good but that pro-choice people usually don't provide support for pregnant women that would allow them to have the choice to give birth if they wanted to. The only support seems to be for what seems more economical... abortion. Boy was that a wake up call for me! I support a home for pre gnant, unwed women now. She will give me five minutes to explain my view and I give her two. It works out great.) ;-) This makes sense since people from NY most likely talk faster than those from O h i o. There's no unfair advantage here that I can see. Somtimes SH watched videos gleefully while people were being tortured Mel Gibson is his hero no doubt. What more justification do people need? World police status given to the USA for starters... I asked her is it because Bush is a republican? You can't sign on to this because you dislike Bush so much?! He's a Christian..is that it? He's a symbol for people divided by the culture war? These prejudices are what the Bush administration would like for people to think are behind the disapproval of the war. That way it can stay in denial of what it has really done. I voted republican so it isn't that for me. I don't dislike Bush as a person and share some ideas in common with him so it isn't that. I'm a Christian; nope ain't that. I guess you could call the war in Iraq a culture war. Maybe that's the reason I'm against the war! Well, part of the reason anyway... We got nowhere,...she ain't changing my mind on this and I'm sure not going to change her mind. What I wonder is are you two still going to discuss this in the future? If so, you'd better wait until winter when heat is a good thing. This kind of energy can be a good thing though really... like in the movie The Water Boy. So Joni is why I came here..and it is Joni why I stay. And the moral of the story is: one Joni CD playing on the stereo is better than two birds arguing about Bush. AND ...all 800 plus of you too.. 800+ voices singing Both Sides Now can change the world... All my love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:58:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try - --- Kate Cox wrote: > Hello! I haven't posted here before, but I was really excited to find > all > these intelligent conversations you guys were having.... hi Kate, nice to meet you! Em here, down in Tampa Florida. I am new to this list as well, hope you enjoy it as I am. Makes me "feel", every day. At LEAST once! :) Em ps also your subject line is making very mad at myself again for having recently let my STAS vinyl go..I bet it was trashed...gotta get the CD SOONly! ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:10:37 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > I have a friend who pointed out to me one time that the liberal idea of > pro-choice is really good but that pro-choice people usually don't provide > support for pregnant women that would allow them to have the choice to give birth > if they wanted to. The only support seems to be for what seems more > economical... abortion. Boy was that a wake up call for me! I support a home for pre > gnant, unwed women now. The very same argument can be used against the anti choicers-how many of them are willing to help raise the child they don;t want aborted? I am not a woman, never will be pregnant, will never know what it feels like. However, I have thought for a long time that the ONLY person who has any say in whether or not a pregnancy preceeds(barring nature) is the woman who is preganant. My own feelings about abortion are not relevant. It is the womans choice and her choice alone. No one elses feelings or opinions are relevant. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:25:16 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short >which the USA and UK sold him..... Well..if that is true and we made this horrible mistake then it is ours to rectify. To make things right. >THE WORLD was convinced he had WMD... Most of the UN....the United States congress thought he had WMD. He did have them at one time. Many..many experts on both sides thinks they are in Syria now. (Kerry voted yea.....H. Clinton also) (thrty two countries signed on with us) >That is a phoney justification. It was not the reason for the war. That >argument does not hold water. For oil...???? Please.. that is ridiculous. > > because you dislike Bush so much?! He's a Christian..is that it? >He's >a > > symbol for people divided by the culture war? > > >I would find being asked those questions offensive to say the elast. they >strongly imply that you think we can't think, that we are incapable of >itegrity, that our objections have nothing to do with genuine arguments but >are merely because we 'dislike' a man or his religion. However, if thought >about, it shows much more about where your thinking is, that you just >cannot >see how an honourable decent person could think differently from you. This >is just why we have so much strife in the world. In effect, you are saying >'you think differently from me-thus you are bad'. Sad. (oh and i don't for >one minute think you meant that deliberately-just that you didn't think it >thru to the end.) I find questions okay. I'm trying to understand. Marianne and I think differently on a lot of things..but I usually understand where she is coming from. I don't understand this stance she takes about Iraq. I suppose I never will. >This war was not fought for honourable reasons at all. however, IF any good >comes out of it, the fact Saddam has gone has got to be it. That does not >jusify it tho. We disagree on this subject there is nothing more to say. Take care.. Bree _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: A Musical Gift It's often that i read that some of us have a need to discover new music. I mean, really good music. And so, i've made a collection of 4ad artists, gathered them on 2 cd's, and would like to share this delight with you all. Some of you may have heard the amazing music by some 4ad artists. My aim was to create a collection that would fit us Joniphiles. The songs are lovely. Once you hear them - you'll understand. All you have to do, in case your hunger for breathtaking music is like mine, is e-mail me your mail address, and i'll send you a copy of the 2 cd's. (No bombs, i promise:)). It's for free, all expences on me, so what have you got to lose? The collection is very pleasent to the ears, beautiful lyrics, voices that'll take your breath away, it's funny, it's blue, it's ironic, it's filled with emotion, sensuality, wisdom, and the harmonies are heavenly. This is my gift to you all. Here's the list of the artists and songs that i've chosen especially for my beloved JMDL: CD 1: 1. THE WOLFGANG PRESS - BIRDIE SONG 2. THIS MORTAL COIL - MR. SOMEWHERE 3. LUSH - MONOCHROME 4. MOJAVE - BLUEBIRD OF HAPPINESS 5. THE MOUNTAIN GOATS - NO CHILDREN 6. KENDRA SMITH - TEMPORARILY LUCY 7. KRISTIN HERSH - SUNDROPS 8. LISA GERMANO - TURNING INTO BETTY 9. BETTIE SERVEERT - TOM BOY 10. BREEDERS - OFF YOU 11. TARNATION - THERE'S SOMEONE 12. PALE SAINTS - KINKY LOVE 13. CASS MCCOMBS - NOT THE WAY 14. NEIL HALSTEAD - SEE YOU ON ROOFTOPS 15. LISA GERMANO - BRUISES 16. RED HOUSE PAINTERS - LORD KILL THE PAIN 17. THROWING MUSES - TWO STEP CD 2: 1. UNREST - ANGEL I WILL WALK YOU HOME 2. LISA GERMANO - SMALL HEADS 3. HIS NAME IS ALIVE - SUMMER SONG 4. THE MOUNTAIN GOATS - IDLES OF THE KING 5. LUSH - LOVELIFE 6. TANYA DONELLY - THE STORM 7. COCTEAU TWINS - BLUE BELL KNOLL 8. TARNATION - THE WELL 9. BLONDE REDHEAD - MADDENING CLOUD 10. TV ON THE RADIO - MR. GRIEVES 11. RED HOUSE PAINTERS - MEDICINE BOTTLE 12. KRISTIN HERSH - BASEBALL FIELD 13. BETTIE SERVEERT - COW COW COWARD 14. GUSGUS - BAMBI 15. LISA GERMANO - VICTORIA'S SECRET 16. NEIL HALSTEAD - SEASONS 17. PALE SAINTS - FINE FRIEND 18. LUSH - ETHERIEL So, don't be too shy, and feel free to e-mail me, so i can make you a copy of your own, and what may be an amazing door in the halls of music that you're yet to open and enter. It's been a pleasure making this collection for you, and this pleasure is about to become yours:) Love, Nuriel Here's a quate from an interview with Ivo Watts-Russell, The Man Behind 4AD : " I still believe in music, I have a great respect for the depth of emotions that music can inspire and provoke in an individual or in me, and that's really what I'm looking for. It can be a very broad range of emotions. I've always enjoyed music that helps create a personal connection between the listener and whatever is coming out of the speakers" p.s. Dear Catherine, i'll be waiting for your "order" too:) Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:38:06 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: a BIG birthday wish for BIG Walt -- NJC It's Earth Day on the 22nd, and you know what that means . . . it's Big Walt's birthday! Yes, the performance artist who brought us Joni Noodles is catching up to our beloved ancient Catherine in the years department, so why not give a VERY LOUD SHOUT out to Big Walt in San Francisco, AKA justalittlebreen@aol.com XO, - --Smurf, the Earth Day Birthday Gnome ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:19:42 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Smug Americans, NJC - now short i think this is definitely a justified 'me too'. among the real pleasures of last summers' jonifest was meeting bree (and of course, marianne) and i knew and know even better now that, despite our political divide, i truly care for bree (and of course, marianne) and of course lori, and of course so many jmdlers. i'm so looking forward to meeting them all again in oliveira. patrick np - the tv "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Bree >Mcdonough >Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:41 PM >To: lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com; LCStanley7@aol.com >Cc: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short > > >>I think Bree knows that, regardless that we're two lesbians of otherwise >>different political tribes, I have the highest regard for her and >her right >>to >>believe what she believes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:38:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Diana Krall interview, Macleans mag - sjc Diana Krall is interviewed in the Apr 26 Maclean's mag There are some Joni bits, quoted here: "Of course Krall didn't just listen to old jazz records, because like any child of the 1970s and 1980s she didn't just listen to jazz. The old Tom Waits albums took another spin on the hi-fi. Joni Mitchell too. Mitchell records like For The Roses and Hejira got her thinking about "so many things that are important -- that are specifically Canadian -- that I can't really talk to a lot of people about," she says. "What it's like to want to go away so badly to New York. Be with the cats. Go to Bradley's" -- the lost, lamented Greenwich Village club where Krall and so many other young musicians used to sit at the bar and watch the world's best jazzmen play what was, by common accord, the best piano in town. "And then to come back, so many years later, and spin the Joni Mitchell records she left behind. "You know: just write what you know," she says. "And there's a lot here [on Vancouver Island] that's a lot more interesting to me now than when I went away." [...] "[...]What was it like working with Elvis Costello? "Krall chuckles. "What do you think? I don't know how this will transfer to the page -- which I'm learning; an eyebrow raised is hard to put into print -- but that's like asking how would I like to collaborate with Bob Dylan. Or Joni Mitchell." "And what does the final product sound like? Well, first of all, it sounds unabashedly like a jazz record. Six of the tunes are by Krall and Costello. Krall covers a Costello number from before they met, Almost Blue, and songs by Mitchell, Tom Waits and Mose Allison." The whole thing is here: http://www.macleans.ca/culture/music/article.jsp?content=20040426_79222_79222 ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:42:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A Musical Gift njc --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > It's often that i read that some of us have a need > to discover new music. I mean, really good music. > And so, i've made a collection of 4ad artists, What does 4ad mean? I have absolutely no idea! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:52:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try --- Kate Cox wrote: > Hello! I haven't posted here before, but I was > really excited to find all > these intelligent conversations you guys were having > about Joni Mitchell, > and I just thought I would add my thoughts on the > issue of whether or not > she is poet. Hey, Kate. Thanks for posting. It's good to hear new views. > I read an interview with Joni on the site recently - > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=175 - in > which she said that, if > she were to publish an anthology of the lyrics she > considered to be > poetry, she would include 'Hejira' but not 'Help > Me'. > > I think this statement is self-explanatory. With > 'Help Me', I think Joni > intended to create a feel-good pop song; with > 'Hejira', she wanted to > explore and analyse the contents of her > consciousness in a more profound > and intensive way. In this way, 'Hejira' and many > other songs fit the > criteria of poetry which Nuriel gave, although in > different ways: I have no idea how to explain whether Joni is or is not a poet, or indeed, what poetry is vs song-writing, although your reference to Joni's statements about "Hejira" vs "Help me" sounds like it's on the right track. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:49:49 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: A poet can sing; sometimes we try, yes we always try hi kate! nice post, and welcome. i thought your comparison of help me and hejira was particularly astute. think of the bridge of help me: Didn't it feel good We were sitting there talking Or lying there not talking Didn't it feel good You dance with the lady With the hole in her stocking Didn't it feel good Didn't it feel good they're fantastic lyrics, but if you didn't know the melody, you'd probably be unimpressed. they must be sung. but the imagery in hejira, after she'd exorcized her flowery phase, but kept her ambitious turns of phrase -- hejira reads wonderfully on the page. and the song is written differently, just a series of chord changes with brilliant instrumentalists, with the same melody almost repeating over and over, and stanza after similarly constructed stanza. don't get me wrong, i believe the song 'hejira' touches heaven, and 'help me' as much as i love it, doesn't. but you are correct: help me is lyrics, hejira isn't necessarily. i'm just going to remind everyone, especially those who haven't heard this rant of mine before: hejira is unbelievably cinematic, and that's a huge poetic achievement. EXT: snow-covered chimneys on urban rooftops, night sky, slightly blurry CAMERA, reverse pan until full moon, slightly comes into view. VOICEOVER "those chimneys and the clouds look like truce flags" CAMERA, reverse pan until it becomes clear that moon, clouds and chimneys, are seen in reflection of high-modernist glass-box building INT: CAMERA, continues reverse pan until window frame and generic hotel furniture comes into view. which sort of connects with lucy's early thread about visuals. this is my single most forceful visual that i experience listening to joni's music, and i treasure it every single time (though i don't really hear the voiceover, i was just trying to be clever) patrick np - silence "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >I read an interview with Joni on the site recently - >http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=175 - in which she said that, if >she were to publish an anthology of the lyrics she considered to be >poetry, she would include 'Hejira' but not 'Help Me'. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:57:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: A Musical Gift njc 4ad (comes from the word "forward") is a music lable based in London. I think it's the best indie lable of our time. They've got this...well, you really should check the songs out to understand. I just know you're gonna like it a lot. Love, Nuriel Catherine McKay wrote: - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > It's often that i read that some of us have a need > to discover new music. I mean, really good music. > And so, i've made a collection of 4ad artists, What does 4ad mean? I have absolutely no idea! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:01:20 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short >> She will give me five minutes to explain my view and I give her two. It >> works out great.) ;-) > This makes sense since people from NY most likely talk faster than those > from O h i o. There's no unfair advantage here that I can see. LO-fecking-L!! Being from Ohio originally, I found this to be QUITE funny! Thanks to both Bree and Laura for making me laugh after a VERY long day at work. I love both of you -- and all the rest of you too!! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:10:58 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - now short Bree wrote: > I find questions okay. I'm trying to understand. Marianne and I think > differently on a lot of things..but I usually understand where she is coming > from. I don't understand this stance she takes about Iraq. I suppose I > never will. I think it's this simple: People -- soldiers and airmen and marines from a number of countries (not just the U.S.), and CIVILIANS who never had any power or say-so to being with -- are DYING in the thousands. People are dying and becoming maimed, and the United States of Arrogance did not have to begin this war when it did -- it could have waited -- and it seems to have begun it for "reasons" that were not yet proved. And there's no end in sight. I realize that now that we've started it, we must stay and make things right again, but we also have to realize that we have allowed this administration to f*ck up in a BIG way and its actions have put us ALL even more in harm's way. Lori NP: "The Windfall (Everything For Nothing)" from Night Ride Home -- REALLY LOUD (because my honey is out of town and I have the house to myself) : ) "You want too much You want too badly You want everything for nothing" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #183 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)