From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #176 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, April 18 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 176 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Iraq NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni ["mike pritchard" ] vote for nobody ["mike pritchard" ] RE: i love this list/ off topic NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: Nuriel, male or... ["patrick leader" ] Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Nuriel, male or...NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] The Top Ten Things Muller Said in 1974 -- NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Lori Fye ] Joni's music and "space" [Lori Fye ] Re: The Top Ten Things Muller Said in 1974 -- NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? [dsk ] Re: Joni's music and "space" - and then [Lori Fye ] Re: Notches, noches - or was it no cheese? NJC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" [Lori Fye ] Re: female or male, Nuriel? njc [Lori Fye ] Re: Iraq NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni [Lori Fye ] broke my anonymity njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni (NJC) [Lori Fye ] Re: i love this list/ off topic [Catherine McKay ] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Iraq NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Notches, noches - and Shawn Colvin & Larry Klein (NJC) [Smurfycopy@ao] Re: Iraq NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC W's Press conference - now why i decided not to vote [Randy Remot] Re: Iraq NJC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Joni loves me songs:) [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Iraq NJC - and chickenhawks [Lori Fye ] Re:WOHAM [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Smug Americans, NJC - LONG [Lori Fye ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 02:30:19 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Iraq NJC Just in from an evening at the VFW Portales, NM...shooting pool with my AF son, having more than a few beers, and generally having a great time. While surfing the net for hockey play-off news, I came upon a column by Mitch Albom of the Detroit Free Press. Some of you may know him as the author of "Tuesdays at Morries," I know him from ten years of living in Detroit and reading his marvelous columns...mostly sports, and mostly Wings. So...without further ado, here's Mitch: (But before I go, two last words: GO WINGS!!!) Best Regards, bp MITCH ALBOM: War in Iraq divides nation like Vietnam March 21, 2004 BY MITCH ALBOM FREE PRESS COLUMNIST The war in Iraq, which began one year ago, was a rousing success, a stunning victory, the toppling of a brutal dictator and a bull's-eye blow to terrorism -- or it wasn't. Depends on whom you believe. The war in Iraq was a lie, a misleading embarrassment, a bait and switch of fascism for chaos that leaves a tinderbox nation with more terror than ever -- or it wasn't. Depends on whom you believe. The war in Iraq was a response to Sept. 11 -- or not. The war in Iraq had no connection to Sept. 11 -- or it did. The war in Iraq was either President George W. Bush's biggest fib, based on selective intelligence by a hawkish administration -- or a triumph of character, taking the fight to the bad guys. Depends on whom you believe. It was either about weapons of mass destruction, or it wasn't. It was either about ridding the world of an evildoer, or it wasn't. It was either about the future -- as in ours -- or the past -- as in Bush's daddy. It was either about showing American might, or showing American arrogance. It was the best reason to go to war, or the worst. Depends on whom you believe. Hussein and his legacy The war in Iraq is over, it was declared so by a president wearing a bomber jacket and landing on an aircraft carrier -- or it isn't over, it goes on every day, and more troops are dead since that photo op than before it. The war in Iraq has proved the United States strong and proud, a shining example to nations everywhere -- or it has proved us disdainful and impatient, with a snooty attitude to nations we consider inferior. The war in Iraq was justified because Saddam Hussein is now in custody, a pathetic husk, awaiting his punishment -- or it was proved unnecessary, because Hussein was a paper tiger with no threatening weapons. Depends on whom you believe. The war in Iraq was fought with a coalition of the willing -- or a coalition of the arm-twisted. It was fought with just enough troops, or not enough troops. It was fought by a well-supplied army or an undersupplied army, by enthusiastic soldiers or resentful soldiers, by kids who were honored to be there or insulted by low pay and canceled leaves. Depends on whom you believe. The war was inevitable -- or the war was manufactured. The war was political -- or the war was patriotic. It was worth it. Or it wasn't. Depends on whom you believe. The future of Iraq The war in Iraq will bring democracy to the region -- or it won't. The war in Iraq will lead to civil war once we pull out -- or it won't. The Iraqis are thrilled that America liberated their country -- or they're not. The Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds will never get along -- or they will. The services in Iraq, from food to water to basic security, are worse now than they were under Hussein -- or they aren't. The United Nations now has new fear of America's power -- or it has lost respect for us altogether. Our allies, like Spain and Poland, are betraying us when they talk about removing troops -- or we betrayed them first. Terrorism has been slowed by our victory in Iraq -- or, as Spain, Turkey and Indonesia have proved, terrorism is worse than ever. We should have waited. We couldn't wait. It was the best reason to go to war, or the worst. All that we know for sure, on this one-year anniversary, is that the war in Iraq has divided America like nothing since Vietnam, and the hate we once reserved for terrorists, we are now spewing at each other. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:47:34 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni >>In regards to DED & CMIARS, Joni's really painted herself in a corner. She has given the impression that she was the guiding hand behind all of this glossy/techno production, although she has hinted that she wasn't and said that sometimes she doesn't think of them as 'her' projects. It would almost seem a contradiction for her to go back and do it "right".<< Hi Bob, I don't think this will/would be problem for Joni. You make good use of 'painterly' metaphors in your comments and, with your permission, I will continue in that mode. You may recall Jane Fonda in the film 'Julia' with Jason Robards where there is a voiceover from 'Lillian Hellman' in which she uses the word 'pentimento', literally the emergence, or presence, of earlier images etc which have been painted over or covered up. The word, of course, derives from the verb to 'repent', and I think Joni could release an 'unplugged' abbreviated version of these two (personally I would not touch CMIARS but concentrate on DED and WTRF) and call it 'pentimento'. As Hellman might say, the new version is totally justifiable because the artist has not repented, but has simply 'changed her mind'. mike in barcelona NP Emmylou - Wrecking Ball ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:51:06 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: vote for nobody Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - now why i decided not to vote Barcelona graffito - Nobody will give you a job. Nobody will give you free beer. Nobody will make the streets safe. You decision is clear - vote for Nobody. mike in barcelona NP (in Nuriel's honour) This Mortal Coil - Blood ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:42:27 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: RE: i love this list/ off topic NJC See below one of the nicest posts I have read on here for a long time. Thank you Les for re-assuring at least one Brit (ME) that there are some of you who can think outside the framework of all that is chauvinism in its truest application of the term. Yes, I agree there is so much that is wonderful on here, so much that lifts and drops a matter on the plate for picking and gnawing on. What a great space this is and we are lucky to have found it. Thank you for reminding us all that the garden is a place for growth and enjoyment. Lucy Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 23:23:41 -0700 From: "Leslie Neumann" Subject: i love this list/ off topic i do. i really do. everytime i read it, i see alot of thought provoking people whom i can relate to in artistic and philosophic matters. folks are relaxed, freer to speak their minds openly. and happily, not snapping and snipeing back and forth at each other about every idiosyncracy ( every particle of difference...) Coexistance lives inside here, despite the outer world's current ride in a handbasket. the overwhelming angst against Dubya reassures me that there's still a good number of educated American's out there with a conscience and a vision of what ought to be, and damn ready to do something about it. proof positive that certain music does elevate us, inspire us, and compell us to be a part of something larger than ourselves. back to the garden. ciao, ~Leslie NP... Damien Rice, "the Blowers Daughter" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 05:12:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine MINGSDANCE@aol.com wrote: "I always thought she was referring to the spoon in one of those dark cocaine bottles that the top had a spoon on. During her coke days I'm sure she would stir up old memories of the past, and you don't stop until the bottles empty." What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? Nuriel Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:31:52 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Nuriel, male or... dear nuri: i did not mean to cause pain or give offense, and i apologize if i did either. i was truly curious, and i did not bring up that post lightly or casually. i received several posts directly that also expressed curiosity. however, i will not mention it again. i think the members of this list (and i include myself) are a great bunch of folks, yet all too human and prone to error. but, mostly, decent, and i include you and me in that definition. i hope that is of some comfort. patrick "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Nuriel Tobias >Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 11:54 PM >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: Nuriel, male or... > > >Thank you for reminding me of the darkest hour in my life, >Patrick. How very kind and thoughtful of you. After i read your >post i tried to sleep, but all that nightmare came back to me, and >so, with barely opened eyes, i'm writing this. >Les - i would thank you very much if you could delete my first >post to the JMDL, i'm so tired of being hunted by it. > >Love, > >Nuri > >patrick leader wrote: >dear nuriel: >i'm posting, below, what i think was the first post you (or someone named >ada wittenberger, but signing herself nuriel) sent to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:42:34 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni Thanks for your thoughts Mike, and don't get me wrong - I would have loved for Joni to revisit, re-record, reproduce some of that 80's stuff instead of the path she chose. She overwhelmed her now-fragile singing voice with an orchestra instead of letting it flourish in a more intimate atmosphere. Luckily I do have some "80's unplugged" stuff from Joni that she did during interviews, concerts, etc. Plus, just yesterday I received a wonderful CD from an Italian jazz guitarist who plays EIGHT songs from WTRF and it also features a wonderful female vocalist. So I feel like I've just gotten WTRF unplugged! The guy really magnifies the jazz side of these songs whereas Joni and Klein's production emphasized the rock side. And yes, these tracks will be making their way into the JMDL network. A BIG thanks to the amazing Monica in Holland for turning this up. Another problem with Joni going back is the whole "paint a starry night again, man" thing. BUT, that statement was 30 years ago - God knows I'd hate for folks to hold my feet to the fire in terms of what I said in 1974! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:45:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Nuriel, male or...NJC **Les - i would thank you very much if you could delete my first post to the JMDL, i'm so tired of being hunted by it. Les is not able to remove anything from the smoe archives - once you write it and send it, it's immortalized for perpetuity. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:43:45 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: The Top Ten Things Muller Said in 1974 -- NJC Muller tempts: << God knows I'd hate for folks to hold my feet to the fire in terms of what I said in 1974! >> So without further ado, here are the Top Ten Things Muller Said in 1974! Number 10: "Disco sucks!" Number 9: "Nixon will never resign." Number 8: "Honest, I'm sterile." Number 7: "Do these Gloria Vanderbilt designer jeans make me look fat?" Number 6: (singing) "I don't like spiders and snakes . . ." Number 5: "Look! 'Airport 75' is already out and it's only1974!" Number 4: "Free Squeaky Frome!" Number 3: (while streaking) "Oops! Guess it's colder than I thought!" Number 2: Gee, I wonder if Barry Manilow is the only one who has ever recorded "Mandy." And the Number 1 Thing Muller Said in 1974: Joni who? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:45:40 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine Nuriel, perhaps a bit alarmed, wrote: > What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? I don't think Joni was addicted to cocaine, but she admits to using coke and that at times it influenced her writing -- though probably mostly in a manic, up-all-night sort of way. I believe her period of using coke was pretty short-lived. Here are Joni's words about cocaine and record-making, at least at the time of this interview: " What step in the music making process is most likely to prove the undoing of a record? "Cocaine. There are entire albums that would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Cocaine seals off the heart and creates a very intellectual mood. It takes all your energy out of your spine and sends it right up to your brain." The rest of the article/interview can be accessed here: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211 Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:54:03 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Joni's music and "space" Em wrote about DJRD on April 7: > ok this to me is about moving through space more than keeping time. And just now I read, in the article I mentioned in my previous post, http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211: The sunny childhood of Mitchell's career culminated in 1971 with 'Blue', considered by many to be her finest work. Although she scored three hit singles with her 1974 release 'Court And Spark', she'd already begun to tinker with the lucrative song formula she'd perfected and was edging out of the glaring pop spotlight and into the world of Jazz. Her music began to stretch out and took on more air and space. Structurally her albums evolved from being collections of songs, into fluid, interwoven symphonic compositions with a cinematic feel; ethereal music embellished with ethnic rhythms and flourishes of jazz, floating around a loosely sketched story line. - - Just wanted share that on this Sunny Sunday ... now it's off to the office ... Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:15:34 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Ten Things Muller Said in 1974 -- NJC Thanks for dredging up my sordid past, Smurf. At least you proved what I said about having your 30-year old quotes come back to haunt you. At least thank God I was right about disco and wrong about Nixon! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:22:57 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" I guess it does make more sense that the "spoon and the glass" could be some sort of medicinal concoction. But, the thought of a dark cocaine bottle with a built-in spoon (which I've never seen before) actually depresses me. Was Joni really like this at one point? To escape the depression, I'm going to act like an even bigger dunce and go out on a limb to say that the "glass" is actually the "window," and I'll tie the "spoon" to the "moon" by saying "the cow jumped over the moon....and the dish ran away with the spoon" ! :) Mia _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:09:49 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Norman Pennington wrote: > > Amen, Bree, amen. We're points of light in a wilderness here. More like lights in a tunnel trudging single-file and going deeper into a cave that's in danger of collapsing, burying yourself in an attempt to find a few nuggets of shiny stone... Oh, throw off your burden, walk upward and out of blindness, take off your heavy miner's hat with the lantern too dim to illuminate the darkness, breathe freely again and join us in the bright sunshine of truth, justice, peace and love where we face each other with cheeks aglow with golden hope! The choice is yours. :-) Debra Shea, feeling overly dramatic today (is there an earnest folksong nearby?) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:55:49 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? > Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. > > > And I suggested: > > You might want to reconsider your self-centered attitude. It is ugly. > And Mack lets me know that there's: > > Nothing ugly about this woman named Bree, including her attitude, > > the latter of which we all have. Bree's words express the "Ugly American" attitude perfectly, and that's what I was referring to. And Bree, if that's truly what you feel and not just a flip remark, it's no wonder you're bewildered by how strongly people dislike Bush. That "I don't care..." is exactly the way Bush thinks. Unfortunately for the world (and that includes *us*), he's in a position to express his disdainful attitude in destructive ways. Until you rethink those words (and I'm not saying you *have* to), any explanation is just a waste of time. Looking at my response now, I'd use the adjective "U.S.-centric" instead of the emotionally loaded "self-centered" because it's more precise and closer to what I was thinking. If I'd had more time, I might have come up with it. Other people have responded more reasonably to Bree's comment, and I agree with them. > As I see it, she simply stated how we all feel but > won't admit. Mack, who are you including in that "we"? Do you and Bree know how EVERYONE feels? That's a stretch, don't you think? You may not believe this, but not *everyone* feels as if the only people in the world worth caring about are U.S. citizens. Geez, leave me out of your assumptions, please. > More power to her feelings and the expression of such because > they are hers. Yes. So? That's the case with everyone, isn't it? People express their feelings and thoughts. And other people respond. > Self-centered? She simply isn't capable of such and that is fact of which I > know. It's nice that you're defending your friend, although I don't understand your need to do that since Bree's general character is not an issue. It doesn't change my negative reaction to her comment, although I see now that I could have expressed it more precisely. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:34:19 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Joni's music and "space" - and then So I'm on my way out the door to ruin a perfectly beautiful and sunny Sunday by going to the office and I decide I'll grab DJRD out of the CD player to take with me to the office ... We have one of those players that holds 400 discs, and I *thought* I'd chosen DJRD when I hit eject. But when I popped the disc into the car's player, I begin hearing people sing "Happy Birthday" to Charles Mingus. Hm. I was a little disturbed because I'd been anticipating "Cotton Avenue," but then I figured that it least serves to remind me to call my cousin whose birthday is today (althought she's 57 and not 54 or 53). Now I'm at work and am continuing to play Mingus and ... oh you know how it goes, 'tis another bit of synchronicity ... talk about SPACE AND AIR!! Great stuff, I should play it more often. Lori NP: "Sweet Sucker Dance" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:31:12 -0700 From: Rick Subject: Diana Krall-Joni's other long-lost daughter I also thought of calling this post "The Travelogue That Joni Should Have Made Or Would Have Made If She Had Someone To Give Her Good Advice." But anyway, this post is in praise of the new Diana Krall cd "The Woman In The Other Room." Besides being Krall's best album to date (IMO), what is most striking about her performance is that she often sounds startlingly like Joni does now but with fewer ragged edges. The range and tone of Krall's voice, her inflections and phrasing, every once in a while come together to make one think that it's Joni singing bluesy-jazz in front of a great small band. Besides covering Black Crow, Krall uses a few other note combinations in other songs which leads me to think she listened to Hejira and Don Juan a lot before or during the recording of this album. The song "Departure Bay" seems very Joni-influenced: biographical, but in an obscure way; Joni-like phrasing on the piano; esoteric geographical references; word-pictures designed to expand in your mind. Now please note that I am not calling Diana Krall the new Joni Mitchell, just saying what I hear, okay? Open for comments, Rick Here's a link to Diana singing A Case Of You from her Live In Paris DVD (Not very Joni-ish but very good: http://www.dianakrall.com/media.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:47:32 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Notches, noches - or was it no cheese? NJC One picture of Sugarpants' presentation of Catherine McKay's "Cease Interfereing With the Sadness", as beat poetry, is at: http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/album26/SU_1010SugarPantsD_11_overex To get the full effect, you should play back the audio from disc 8, track 4. Last year's poster is available for an $8 donation. The logo section of the poster is at: http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/album26?page=4 Jim PS, I watched an appearance of Shawn Colvin on the 54th Street Sessions music program from long ago. She did "Riding Shotgun Down the Avalanche" and Larry played bass. Lori said, >>>>>> Catherine called her version "Cease Interfering With The Sadness," and it's hysterical! So good, in fact, that some of my cohorts and I (otherwise known as the group called "Sugar Pants") felt compelled to perform it on stage at Jonifest, in complete "beat" mode. Joni's original lyrics: http://www.jmdl.com/lyrics/DontInterruptTheSorrow.cfm Catherine's interpretation: http://lrfye.lunarpages.com/ceaseinterfering.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:50:50 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" > I guess it does make more sense that the "spoon and the glass" could be some > sort of medicinal concoction. But, the thought of a dark cocaine bottle > with a built-in spoon (which I've never seen before) actually depresses me. > Was Joni really like this at one point? I don't think she was. Beyond that, though, I don't see this particular stanza as autobiographical. It seems to me that Joni is wishing Betsy "heart" and is empathizing with Betsy's battles -- with love? with old addictions? -- and understands that people often try to medicate the pain (and demons) away. Very simply, I see "spoon" as a metaphor for cocaine, and "glass" as a metaphor for booze. I wish her heart I know these battles Deep in the dark When the spooks of memories rattle Ghosts of the future Phantoms of the past Rattle rattle rattle In the spoon and the glass Great catch on the reference to Marley, Bob! (LOL ... I just made myself giggle.) Lori, having a hard time getting into the work mode NP: "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:17:25 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Notches, noches - and Shawn Colvin & Larry Klein (NJC) Thanks, Jim!! I should've figured you'd know JUST WHERE to find that photo! And for the sake of those who don't know us, left to right is Ashara, Lucy, Donna, me, Susan Guzzi, and Mags. In front on "beat box" is our male friend, growing feeble, Smurf. ; ) > One picture of Sugarpants' presentation of Catherine McKay's "Cease > Interfereing With the Sadness", as beat poetry, is at: > > http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/album26/SU_1010SugarPantsD_11_overex > To get the full effect, you should play back the audio from disc 8, track 4. Indeed. > PS, I watched an appearance of Shawn Colvin on the 54th Street Sessions > music program from long ago. She did "Riding Shotgun Down the Avalanche" > and Larry played bass. That is SUCH a great song! And Larry Klein on bass? Cool. I saw Shawn with Stuart Smith on lead and Larry on bass, from the FRONT ROW, on the last night one of her tours (Cover Girl, maybe?) in Austin. Say what you will about Klein, but I enjoy his bass playing, and the three of them were great together! Lori, still doing no work and feeling hungry for nachos ; ) NP: white noise installed by our engineer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:48:02 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Iraq NJC Buck quoted Mitch Album's article ... > MITCH ALBOM: War in Iraq divides nation like Vietnam And now I'll address Mitch's last paragraph: > All that we know for sure, on this one-year anniversary, is that the war in > Iraq has divided America like nothing since Vietnam, and the hate we once > reserved for terrorists, we are now spewing at each other. Yep. (That was for you, Em.) And 30 years later, I think it's safe to say that we're pretty much all in agreement that our involvement in Vietnam was one of the biggest fuck-ups in American (and world) history. Something tells me that it won't take us 30 years to figure out that Iraq is going to be regarded in our history books (if history books, or any other kind of book, even exist by then) in very much the same way. I understand Mitch's point: we should be focusing our hatred on terrorists and not on each other. But "hatred" is a really ugly and poor way to deal with anything, as the mind and heart are not clear and you leave yourself open to making gross errors in judgment. I'm just not sure that the way we're "expressing" our feelings -- whether those feelings are born of hatred, fear, arrogance, or something less easy to identify -- is way we ought to be expressing them. There are reasons that 50% of everyday people disagree with this war. And half the people can't be ALL wrong about it. Lori, who has been considering taking to the Washington DC streets with her own placard, and soon NP: Shawn Colvin, "Another Plane Went Down" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:00:54 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: female or male, Nuriel? njc Nuriel responded to Marianne: > I think you thought i'm a woman cause my name is close to the name muriel. > But no, i'm a man. (35 years old). I'm from Israel, and not too proud about > it these days. I find this to be a very interesting comment, Nuriel. Quite unlike what I usually hear or read from others about Israel. Can you tell me more? Private email is okay if you'd prefer. Sincerely, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:02:45 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Iraq NJC I wrote: > Buck quoted Mitch Album's article ... And of course it should have been Mitch ALBOM. Lori, who has been typing the word "album" a lot lately (and listening to lots of the vinyl variety too) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:34:19 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni Bob wrote: > She's diluted her catalogue enough with BSN & T'log as it is. I just don't get that. If ever there was a dilution of Joni's catalogue, it came about when Hits was released. (I won't say the same about Misses because most of the songs on that disc are better, imo.) Speaking of marketing gimmicks, pasting "Urge For Going" onto Hits seemed like a ploy to entice fans who already owned everything else to buy the disc. Great song, but putting it on Hits felt like a slap in my face for some reason -- maybe because it hadn't been a true "hit" for Joni and adding it to the disc WAS just a gimmick. (In fact, I'm not sure I would've bought Hits or Misses, but my then-girlfriend gave them to me for my birthday.) When Joni performed "Comes Love" at A Day In The Garden (at Yasgur's Farm) in 1998, I nearly experienced something similary to the title of the song. ; ) I thought to myself, "Joni can really sing jazz!!" (Reports on the concert can be read here: http://www.jonimitchell.com/OnTheRoadWoodstock98.html) I could see from that performance that Joni was heading in an even jazzier direction, and I was actually hoping that she planned to explore more jazz covers. I was pleased when she released BSN. I don't play the album often enough, but I always enjoy it when I do. Plus, her performance on the BSN tour was nothing short of great, imo. As for Travelogue, the more I listen to it, the more I *hear* it. Joni did a retrospective of her own career, the way she wanted those songs to be heard one last time. Maybe they're not the way *we* would have liked them to be done, but they were her songs to do and she chose to do them the way she did, with an orchestra and a whole lotta production. She's put those songs to bed, put her whole singing career to rest. She said as much when she released the album. So the more I *hear* Travelogue's tracks, the deeper their meaning becomes for me. They pluck my heart strings, not always in the way I'd like them to be plucked, but boy do I ever FEEL what she's singing. I think she actually ENRICHED the songs this last time around. No complaints here, and no evidence of dilution in my book. Lori NP: "Impossible Dreamer" from Misses ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:41:17 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: broke my anonymity njc When you break your anonymity. . . I assume it is potentially vulnerable. . but you are doing a good service of education. . . educating others. . . I went to a convenience store today and got into a short conversation with the check out girl. . .we started by discussing smoking. . .she proceeded to tell me that she's been sober for 6 months. . . a least she's got smoking she said. . . it is a tough world out there. . . we've got to have something smoking (my drug of choice , but I am not doing it right now, tho I really want to). Anyway, I wished her well on her sobriety.. . . and I thought it was cool she mentioned it. . good for her. . and good for you Laura. . and thanks for sharing it with the list. . and if I was born with the gene or what have you, I'd be an alcoholic too. . . just one of those things. . . power to you! Marianne >Love, >Laura >PS. I tutored 4 medical students tonight and one brought me.... sigh.... a >bottle of wine. I broke my anonymity and told her she'd better keep it. >I'm still in disbelief that I did this. I bet it was a good vintage too! >I, yes me myself and I, had a bottle of wine in my house tonight with my >name on it. A bottle of wine. _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:51:27 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni (NJC) I wrote: > I nearly experienced something similary to the title of the song. ; ) "similary." Hm. I think I'm trying to invent new words without even realizing it. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:12:22 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Iraq NJC bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ > > But "hatred" is a really ugly and poor way to deal with anything, whilst I see much disagreement over the issue and people allowing their feathers to be ruffled, I haven't seen anyhting I'd describe as 'hatred'. At least not on this list. perhaps there is much of this 'hatred' on your tv's or int he newspapers that i am not aware of. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:13:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: i love this list/ off topic --- Leslie Neumann wrote: > i do. i really do. everytime i read it, i see alot > of thought provoking > people whom i can relate to in artistic and > philosophic matters. folks are > relaxed, freer to speak their minds openly. and > happily, not snapping and > snipeing back and forth at each other about every > idiosyncracy ( every > particle of difference...) Coexistance lives inside > here, despite the outer > world's current ride in a handbasket. Those cannibals of shuck and jive (that) eat a working girl ... alive Pass like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me. A Joni quote for every occasion. Stay in touch, Les. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine Lori Fye wrote: Nuriel, perhaps a bit alarmed, wrote: > What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? I wasn't a bit alarmed, i was very alarmed. "I don't think Joni was addicted to cocaine, but she admits to using coke and that at times it influenced her writing -- though probably mostly in a manic, up-all-night sort of way. I believe her period of using coke was pretty short-lived. Here are Joni's words about cocaine and record-making, at least at the time of this interview: " What step in the music making process is most likely to prove the undoing of a record? "Cocaine. There are entire albums that would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Cocaine seals off the heart and creates a very intellectual mood. It takes all your energy out of your spine and sends it right up to your brain." Joni, shalom, such a "cute" answer, luv it, but just wanted to say you forget to mention the fact that it's poison, and that even human beings, not only albums, would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Nuriel The rest of the article/interview can be accessed here: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211 Lori Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:21:22 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Iraq NJC "I'm a uniter, not a divider" - -GW Bush I guess you can add this to his list of accomplishments like squandering our federal $ surplus and ruining our international reputation. RR Norman Pennington wrote: > > MITCH ALBOM: War in Iraq divides nation like Vietnam > > March 21, 2004 > > BY MITCH ALBOM > FREE PRESS COLUMNIST > > The war in Iraq, which began one year ago, was a rousing success, a stunning > victory, the toppling of a brutal dictator and a bull's-eye blow to > terrorism -- or it wasn't. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > The war in Iraq was a lie, a misleading embarrassment, a bait and switch of > fascism for chaos that leaves a tinderbox nation with more terror than > ever -- or it wasn't. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > The war in Iraq was a response to Sept. 11 -- or not. > > The war in Iraq had no connection to Sept. 11 -- or it did. > > The war in Iraq was either President George W. Bush's biggest fib, based on > selective intelligence by a hawkish administration -- or a triumph of > character, taking the fight to the bad guys. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > It was either about weapons of mass destruction, or it wasn't. > > It was either about ridding the world of an evildoer, or it wasn't. > > It was either about the future -- as in ours -- or the past -- as in Bush's > daddy. > > It was either about showing American might, or showing American arrogance. > > It was the best reason to go to war, or the worst. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > Hussein and his legacy > The war in Iraq is over, it was declared so by a president wearing a bomber > jacket and landing on an aircraft carrier -- or it isn't over, it goes on > every day, and more troops are dead since that photo op than before it. > > The war in Iraq has proved the United States strong and proud, a shining > example to nations everywhere -- or it has proved us disdainful and > impatient, with a snooty attitude to nations we consider inferior. > > The war in Iraq was justified because Saddam Hussein is now in custody, a > pathetic husk, awaiting his punishment -- or it was proved unnecessary, > because Hussein was a paper tiger with no threatening weapons. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > The war in Iraq was fought with a coalition of the willing -- or a coalition > of the arm-twisted. > > It was fought with just enough troops, or not enough troops. > > It was fought by a well-supplied army or an undersupplied army, by > enthusiastic soldiers or resentful soldiers, by kids who were honored to be > there or insulted by low pay and canceled leaves. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > The war was inevitable -- or the war was manufactured. > > The war was political -- or the war was patriotic. > > It was worth it. Or it wasn't. > > Depends on whom you believe. > > The future of Iraq > The war in Iraq will bring democracy to the region -- or it won't. > > The war in Iraq will lead to civil war once we pull out -- or it won't. > > The Iraqis are thrilled that America liberated their country -- or they're > not. > > The Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds will never get along -- or they will. > > The services in Iraq, from food to water to basic security, are worse now > than they were under Hussein -- or they aren't. > > The United Nations now has new fear of America's power -- or it has lost > respect for us altogether. > > Our allies, like Spain and Poland, are betraying us when they talk about > removing troops -- or we betrayed them first. > > Terrorism has been slowed by our victory in Iraq -- or, as Spain, Turkey and > Indonesia have proved, terrorism is worse than ever. > > We should have waited. We couldn't wait. > > It was the best reason to go to war, or the worst. > > All that we know for sure, on this one-year anniversary, is that the war in > Iraq has divided America like nothing since Vietnam, and the hate we once > reserved for terrorists, we are now spewing at each other. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:32:40 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Notches, noches - and Shawn Colvin & Larry Klein (NJC) Lori writes: << left to right is Ashara, Lucy, Donna, me, Susan Guzzi, and Mags. In front on "beat box" is our male friend, growing feeble, Smurf. ; ) >> Holy crap! Is that really moi? Gee, I guess you'd be feeble too, Lori, if you were nine-and-a-half months preggers! And that was *before* I quit cigs and gained weight (which I have since lost, thank you very much)! - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:37:23 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Iraq NJC Colin wrote: > whilst I see much disagreement over the issue and people allowing their > feathers to be ruffled, I haven't seen anyhting I'd describe as 'hatred'. At > least not on this list. perhaps there is much of this 'hatred' on your tv's > or int he newspapers that i am not aware of. That's a very good point, Colin. I realize now that I completely missed including a very critical argument. Aside from Mitch Albom's comments, which were directed at both sides, we "liberals" are told again and again that we *hate* Bush, etc. The people who are saying this express bewilderment at this hatred. We continue to remind them that we don't HATE anyone, because a) we don't, and b) we recognize that hatred never solved any sort of problem -- it only creates MORE problems. Meanwhile, our "bewildered accusers" imply, not too far beneath the surface of the conversation, that we are not patriotic because we don't agree with Bush or support his war (nevermind that we continue to support the TROOPS who are fighting and dying in it). It's a classic case of political spin, designed to convince the undecided (read: swing voters) that it's the "liberal peaceniks" who are consumed by hatred, when in reality it's the chickenhawks, clothed in their "compassionate conservatism," who promote hatred and intolerance day in and day out. Thanks for getting me to think about that, Colin. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:39:17 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - now why i decided not to vote Hi Ron- I appreciate your right to vote or not, but I do not find your reasoning convincing. ron wrote: > come > to the the following conclusions: > > - youre voting for politicians. on some moral level i have a problem > with taking even indirect responsibility for perpetuating the bunch of scum > who call themselves politicians. The problem with this is that there are a few embattled souls in politics trying to do the right thing, and you are not supporting them > > > - you will never know the truth about politicians unless you have some > kind of personal contact. pretty much everything you will read about them > will have some kind of lie or spin. What about looking at their record? Going beyond the surface? Takes a bit of effort. > - the elections here are rigged anyway. confirmed by a good friend who > was involved in the vote counting during our first "democratic" elections. Ironically, if a piece of legislation supporting, say, election reform or something else you believe in comes down the pike, you will not be voting for it. Another point is that the conservatives always vote. If there is a choice between someone that reflects your views 5% of the time, or 1% of the time, you are letting others make that choice. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:48:00 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Iraq NJC Lori writes: << it's the chickenhawks, clothed in their "compassionate conservatism," who promote hatred and intolerance day in and day out. >> Isn't a chickenhawk is an older gay man who preys on very young guys? Has it become a cowardly war supporter all of a sudden? - --Smurf, totally out of it . . . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Joni loves me songs:) (I could only ask this in a simplified way) What song makes you feel that Joni loves you? Mine was always Conversation. I always felt like i'm the guy she's flirting with, wants to free, that i'm the "he" who "knows that's what he'll find". When i was a child, whenever the song was playing, once it got to it's ending, the flute part and her going "Too-too-too, too-too-too-tooroo-too-too", i used do dance all around my room, clapping my hands, as if it was the first day of spring. I felt real waves of love flowing from the stereo. Love to hear your 'Joni loves me' song/s. Nuriel Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 15:03:18 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Iraq NJC - and chickenhawks Smurf, who claims he's totally out of it, asks: > Isn't a chickenhawk is an older gay man who preys on very young guys? Has it > become a cowardly war supporter all of a sudden? See? I learn something new everyday too: I didn't know that older gay men who prey on twinks are called chickenhawks. But the answer to your second question is: Yes. See http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks for lots, lots more. Lori, who knows Smurf is NOT totally out of it ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:55:02 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re:WOHAM << From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Woman of Heart and Mind (no PC, hooray) A part two would be lovely! However, I have to admit, given the time restraints on the film, I'm glad the producers put more emphasis on the pre-Blue Joni. For me, this film is more about, who is Joni, what has shaped her, and how has she arrived? If the film was just about her accomplishments only, well then, yes the producers have failed miserably. After Blue, Joni's career could be followed more closely as she was famous and already in the public eye. But the pre-Blue period has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. It almost has a magical, fairy-tale like quality. I want to know what makes Joni tick, and WOHAM has certainly revealed this for me. Mia >> Hi, Mia, There have been lots of thoughts on what was missing from WOHAM but I think you make a good point; it's a biography, not a comprehensive "sampler". Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 19:55:06 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Smug Americans, NJC - LONG Laura wrote to me: > This struck me as funny... it is as if there is another person to blame > for 9/11... Bree?!... a "smug" American who doesn't care what the rest of the > world thinks. I don't like the blame game at all. The people who were > behind 9/11 were crazy murderers... period. They hit the WORLD trade center > and in essence affected many countries in doing so. I think we do need to > take a look at how we can improve ourselves on all levels, but that is > ongoing regardless of Iraq or the world. That darn Bree is always making trouble, I tell you! NOT. I think Bree knows that, regardless that we're two lesbians of otherwise different political tribes, I have the highest regard for her and her right to believe what she believes. At least I HOPE Bree know this -- and Bree, if you didn't know that, I'm telling you NOW! : ) I've been meaning to respond to your post, Laura, and have been thinking about it. I didn't mean to imply that 9/11 was BREE's fault because she *may* (or may not) be an example of an American who doesn't care what the world thinks. She wrote that she doesn't care, but I'm not sure she didn't mean she doesn't care what people on the JMDL think. No, 9/11 was ultimately the fault of the people who decided to pilot those planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and the field near Shanksville, and the people who helped plan and fund the attacks. The U.S. surely could've done better with its intelligence, but other than to ground all commercial aircraft and do flyovers of the suspected targets, I really don't see how we could've prevented the attack. We're humans, afterall, and we make errors -- and I'll even cut Bush some slack on that count. I don't like all the finger-pointing that's going on right now in the way of the commission and its hearings, either. 9/11 widows aside -- and I do feel for them and applaud their courage in demanding answers -- it just smacks too much of point-scoring during the presidential campaign. No one is going to win. The best we can do is to learn what went wrong, for ALL sides and agencies (and individual persons, in some cases) to accept that they failed to pass along the information they had as soon as they had it, and to fix the system. It's a tough road to travel, because it's a bureaucracy and there are so many egos involved. What people need to remember is that there are also SO MANY LIVES involved too. But back to American "smugness." Americans are perceived by so many people in the world -- not just terrorists but peaceful people too -- as having an attitude that we just don't give a flying f*ck about anyone else's culture or religion or depth of poverty or anything that doesn't affect us personally. It's part of the "ugly American" image that may or may not be deserved but which does exist. We seem to be so consumed with how much money we can make, how convenient our lives can be, how entertained we are -- at all times and at all costs to anyone else. Maybe that's not true of everyone in the U.S., but I think it's how we're PERCEIVED. We have these amazing rights to free speech and expression, and we push the envelope on those to the absolute max. I'm not saying we should change that -- for example, I dislike the porn industry and the way it exploits EVERYONE connected with it, but I am loathe to tell porn producers they can't express their "art" as they do. But we need to consider that other people in the world believe we should be DAMNED for just walking around with our heads uncovered, nevermind that we're selling tits and ass on video to anyone who will buy it. I'm not saying we need to apologize for that, but we should at least CONSIDER and REMEMBER that they are very, very offended. And okay, maybe they're envious too. It's possible. I'm sure there are as many "reasons" to hate Americans as they are people who feel that way. But if nothing else, we need the rest of world's peoples to know that we're sensitive to their beliefs and wishes, and at least try to come to some understanding with them (whoever "them" is). Maybe that will require some compromises -- gee, what a concept! I'm not even sure what those compromises would be, but somehow we've got to get the message across that we can help them to have a better life WITHOUT making Westerners or Christians out of them. We have to say, "We honor you, and we would hope you would honor us," and we have to MEAN it when we say it. But we can't say "We honor you" and then go over and take their oil or other resources and tell them that not only is democracy the "best" way but they have to run their country like ours too. The problem for me is that, right now more than at any other time, the U.S. as a nation seems as if we just don't care what the rest of the world thinks, and that CAN'T be a good thing. We have something like 5% of the people on the planet, but we use WAY more than our fair share of its resources. And we don't seem to care. We seem to be saying, "It's my way or the highway," and I'm sorry, but it can't be that way. We need to take those lessons we learned in kindergarten and SHARE and BE KIND. Yes, even when "they" haven't been kind to us. Ah feck ... I'm rambling and just going around in circles. The whole thing always comes down to this: "You must believe as I do." Every single time. On all sides. Christian zealots are trying to "save" me from going to hell because I love and live with a woman. Muslim zealots are trying to kill me because I'm an "infidel." The Palestinians and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years over a piece of desert, and I'll NEVER understand that. (I can understand fighting over a piece of DESSERT, but sand?) : ) Maybe it's like JMDLer Fred Simon writes from time to time: You say falafel, I say falafel You say salaam, I say shalom Falafel, falafel Salaam, Shalom Let's blow the whole thing up! and there's nothing we can do. As for me, though, I'm going to TRY to not fall down in the ditch with the lowest common denominator, and TRY to live peacefully and respectfully with everyone I can. And if I get blown up in the process, or shot down on the street, well ... maybe it's just that my time was up. Lori, tired of all of it ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #176 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)