From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #172 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, April 16 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 172 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- [none] ["Lucy Hone" ] NJC W's Press conference PC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: NJC W's Press conference [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC W's Press conference [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] was posts about GWB, now "clean car" NJC [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: (NJC) Tom Robbins [dsk ] Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U [dsk ] Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC W's Press conference [dsk ] Re: NJC W's Press conference PC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: NJC W's Press conference PC ["Norman Pennington" ] RE: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: NJC W's Press conference PC [dsk ] Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S [Lori Fye ] Re: The huge posts about US politics and Iraq NJC ["mackoliver" Subject: [none] This bit from Debra Shea's post (see below) "When the question was asked again, with an added comment about how the commission wants to question them SEPARATELY, Bush gave exactly the same memorized answer! I was hoping one of the questioners would yell out, "Hey, dude, what about the *together* part??!!" I picture Cheney literally speaking for Bush, like a ventriloquist, correcting whatever Bush says if Bush does answer a question himself, and if that's not the sign of a creepy puppetmaster, I don't know what is. "....... Although I did not see Bush squirming on a stick of his own choice.. the comments you make reminded me of a sketch from a satirical programme called "NOT THE NINE O'CLOCK NEWS" when Griff Rhys-Jones plays Ronnie Regan and Rowan Atkinson stands behind him whispering his speech to him. It rambles through topics such as nuclear arms, war, cup cakes, apple pie and little cuddly toys and ends with....... Atkinson "And it never ceases to amaze me Rhys-jone "And it never ceased to amaze me" A.."that a cretin such as I R-J "that a cretin such as I" A.." could become R-J "could become" A... the President R-J "the President A..."of the United States of America" R-J "of the United States of America" That is what I feel about Bush, he is a puppet. And please realise that I reserve equal scorn for our own Prime Minister.... ITs the guys at the back, who have the power. Bush and Blair are the "Fall guys" and happy to be there because they like to be seen to be BIG MEN in control..... How sad that is..... Ah well... Good day to you all Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:18:05 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: NJC W's Press conference PC Sorry if this gets through twice I forgot to title it!!!!! DOH! This bit from Debra Shea's post (see below) "When the question was asked again, with an added comment about how the commission wants to question them SEPARATELY, Bush gave exactly the same memorized answer! I was hoping one of the questioners would yell out, "Hey, dude, what about the *together* part??!!" I picture Cheney literally speaking for Bush, like a ventriloquist, correcting whatever Bush says if Bush does answer a question himself, and if that's not the sign of a creepy puppetmaster, I don't know what is. "....... Although I did not see Bush squirming on a stick of his own choice.. the comments you make reminded me of a sketch from a satirical programme called "NOT THE NINE O'CLOCK NEWS" when Griff Rhys-Jones plays Ronnie Regan and Rowan Atkinson stands behind him whispering his speech to him. It rambles through topics such as nuclear arms, war, cup cakes, apple pie and little cuddly toys and ends with....... Atkinson "And it never ceases to amaze me Rhys-jone "And it never ceased to amaze me" A.."that a cretin such as I R-J "that a cretin such as I" A.." could become R-J "could become" A... the President R-J "the President A..."of the United States of America" R-J "of the United States of America" That is what I feel about Bush, he is a puppet. And please realise that I reserve equal scorn for our own Prime Minister.... ITs the guys at the back, who have the power. Bush and Blair are the "Fall guys" and happy to be there because they like to be seen to be BIG MEN in control..... How sad that is..... Ah well... Good day to you all Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:43:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: > Catherine writes: > > << A few yards from them was one > lone guy, an older man, not old enough to be a vet > of > WWII for example, but maybe Korea, or maybe no war > at > all. He held a sign that read, "No more peace > groups." >> > > You and the kids should have beaten the ever lovin' > crap out of the bastard. > > Peace, > > --Smurf It crossed my mind, but as a foreigner (or "alien" as you Americans like to call strangers), I was worried about being shipped off to Guantanamo Bay for an indefinite period... not that I couldn't use a holiday in a warmer climate. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:03:33 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference **I've heard that voter turnout in the US tends to be really poor. Is this true? If so, why is that? ** Yes, it's very true. Some reasons, the way I see it: - -We're a big-ass country of a couple hundred million. Lots of folks don't see their vote as anything significant. - -Look at the last election...Bush & Gore (yawn). Two bland zeros. Can't we find any better candidates than these? Where's Kay Ashley dammit? Add up the women, blacks & hispanics and you've got a huge group, yet all we ever get is white guys with nice hair and red neckties, spouting the same old same old. And our systems & processes don't allow a viable 3rd party to be anything but a spoiler. - -You have to wait in line, you have to register, you have to drive to your polling place, and most importantly, you have to be informed (or you should be, anyway). Lots of Americans can't be bothered as it's just an interruption of their routine. Like I said in a post yesterday, we are spoiled and lazy as a general rule. I love the idea of being fined for not voting, but by the same token so many are so totally uninformed it's scary to think of everyone voting. I love to vote. I'll even vote in uncontested city and county elections. It just fills me with awe and a sense of power, plus I feel like I owe it to the people who have been killed just to give me that right. Bob NP: "Ave Maria" from Passion Of The Christ Soundtrack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 08:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: was posts about GWB, now "clean car" NJC tantra_apso wrote: > > What could be done, and should already ahve been > done, is developing a different energy source.... There is actually hope in that direction. Unfortunately, the infrastructure to support it doesn't exist yet. And I'm cynical enough to think that the powers that be who make money from oil aren't too keen on promoting this. Honda has developed a fuel cell powered car. I want one! But it's not for sale to consumers yet. You can read about it here: http://www.hondacorporate.com/fcx/ If the world survives, some day future generations will wonder what all the fuss over oil was about. (Think Marco Polo and spices...) Until then, this is truly a sorry state of affairs. I wish I had been wrong to protest this war. But I've even heard some radically conservative (now there's a verbal oxymoron) radio personalities talk about what a mess this is. Maybe the rats are starting to jump from the sinking ship. I can only hope so. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 08:58:10 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U **I don't recall if anyone mentioned this, but there is a Joni Mitchell cover in a Damien Rice show that was recently seeded through sharingthegroove.org. Looks like Lisa Hannigan sang an acappella version of Willy...** You're the first to mention it, David. Now, step #2 - we have to get it. Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Creepin" (speaking of awesome covers...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:31:48 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: (NJC) Tom Robbins Lori Fye wrote: > > omg, Debra! I think you've just caused me to have a literary orgasm -- twice! LOL! As Tom would say: Whooopeee! That's what life's all about!! So whoopeeeeeee go ahead and have another one!!! Debra Shea, savoring that joyful attitude and avoiding today's news as long as I can ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:51:39 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > Let a gentle Joni cover chase away your post press-conference blues: > > http://www.rockacola.com/music/song.asp?song_no=25426 And it did... so soothing. Thanks, Bob. As I listened to it last night, I marveled again at this unique love song Joni has created. In this version, I love that low piano part before he starts singing. (That's as precise as non-musician-me can describe it.) It feels like dipping into a comforting little nest and resting for a while, a very short while because the song must go on... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:07:53 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Free Joni Cover 4 U **And it did... so soothing. Thanks, Bob. As I listened to it last night, I marveled again at this unique love song Joni has created.** I agree...and while I appreciated Nuriel's criticism, I don't agree with it. I don't think one has to have any understanding of Canada to fully inhabit this song - it's a song of love & love lost, as universal a theme as there is, whether you're Canadian or not. Joni considers it a standard by virtue of including it on her BSN album. If it's good enough for Joni, it's good enough for me. Bob NP: Alicia Keys, "Wake Up" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:20:21 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > I love to vote. I'll even vote in uncontested city and county elections. It > just fills me with awe and a sense of power, plus I feel like I owe it to the > people who have been killed just to give me that right. I get a kick out of voting, too. It was one of those mysterious things my parents did, and that I wanted to do when I grew up. (Unlike them, though, I've never voted for a Republican!) I don't understand people who think it doesn't matter who is in office. What's decided by the people we elect affects our life in every way. Now, I like standing in line and chatting with neighbors, and sometimes talking with people who started their life in another country and are voting here for the first time, and are all excited about it. That adds to my enthusiasm and it hits me again that voting is a profound right that we have here, that people have fought and died to give us that right, and it's nothing to ever take for granted. So I'm definitely on the vote vote vote bandwagon. This year even more action is needed -- donations, letters to editors, handing out flyers, helping people get registered, demonstrating (and how dare the Republicans think they can have their convention in NYC and use 9/11 for their benefit! Our pain for their gain?!! Get outta town!!! It's going to be a rough time here!), and whatever else will help get Kerry elected. Being on the mailing list of organizations like moveon.org and the Democratic National Party is a good way to get contacts and ideas about how to help out. And how cool is it that Kerry came to New York City and raised $6 million in a day?!!! Whoohoo!! Debra Shea, in NYC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:26:31 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC >I don't think I've ever known anyone so unreflective. It's unfortunate >because there are always lessons to be learned and there's no sign that >Bush, or his controllers, have learned anything from the messes they've >made. It was interesting (but scary also) to hear Bush's enthusiastic >belief in his ability to change the world for the good. It doesn't match >what's happening. Such a not-matching-reality attitude would be called >grandiosity and considered a sign of ill health in anyone else... I'm really perplexed by the things you wrote ..Debra. Don't we all want to change this world for the good? I think except for the few zealots on either side..our( end )goals are the same. I think where we differ is how to get there: What polices should be implemented..and the strategies to get a saner..more peaceful world. You know, I'm still so bewildered at the absolute hate and disgust that people on this list feel for GWB. There seems to be more loathing for him then the terrorists. I understand the philosophical differences with the Bush administration..of course. But this is something far far different. paraphrase and add to an opinion piece I read recently: Harry Truman >said the buck stops here (Mr. Responsibility). The Bushies say the buck >never got here (so, la la la it's not myyyyy fault la la la la la). Do you think Bush is at fault for 9/11 ? The reporters (and that is what they are or supposed to be anyway..but they THINK are some grand mission to get a gotcha!! moment.) biased as can be.. they tried their damnest to get Bush to apologize. They sliced and diced....employed tactics.... BUT it didn't work fellows. And if you think President Bush is the only president to be coached prior to a a press conference? You are wrong. Like the bully on the playground.. after taking all you can... there comes the time to just beat the ever loving daylights out of him. We.. the world... let Saddam have his way for too long...we had to step in and stop it. (cut him off at the knees) I saw two retired generals the other night on a program they wrote a book together..I can't recall the name.. BUT..the crux of their message is that 9/11 was just coming attractions.... because if we don't stop these thugs and dismantle these key terriost states now...WE AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN YET. It's either on their shore..this fight..or on ours. In closing, there was enough justification for stopping Hussein for him denying UN weapon inspections for so long...forgetting every thing else... It was and is the right thing to do. Bree >Debra Shea _________________________________________________________________ Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your waist. http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise&article=et_pv_030104_lovehandles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:31:34 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Why are you up at 1:34A worring about Bush being a IDGIT? ;-) Shouldn't you guys be placing ALL your hatred for Bush into something positive? Like getting Kerry elected. Oh ..I forgot..there is no passion or excitement for Kerry. It's just about beating Bush. And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Bree >From: Lori Fye >Reply-To: Lori Fye >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? >Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 01:34:53 -0400 > >Richard wrote: > > > You got it, Patrick. The press conference is stressful but waging a war > > under false pretences is a piece of cake. > >See, Bree? It's obvious that Bushie boy hasn't lost a night's sleep about >the >WAR ... only about his answers to the "difficult" questions. > >Seems to me that if Shrub is so convinced of his righteousness, he >should've >been able to fire back his "truth" without having to think about it. > >Not only is he one of the most dangerous men on the planet, he is an >embarrassment to the U.S. presidency. The citizens of the rest of the >world's >nations must think we're IDIOTS to have allowed him to assume that office. > >Lori, >disgusted and not amused in the least _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:56:48 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference Catherine gave us: > > You and the kids should have beaten the ever lovin' > > crap out of the bastard. > > > > Peace, > > > > --Smurf > > It crossed my mind, but as a foreigner (or "alien" as > you Americans like to call strangers), I was worried > about being shipped off to Guantanamo Bay for an > indefinite period... not that I couldn't use a holiday > in a warmer climate. > Sheesh. Yeah, let's beat the stuffing out of any sum'bitch with the temerity to have a POV not our own. You WERE joking, right, Catherine? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:08:10 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Correction: I forgot the D in damndest. thanks >From: "Bree Mcdonough" >Reply-To: "Bree Mcdonough" >To: dsk11@bellatlantic.net, rflynn@frontiernet.net, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC >Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:26:31 -0400 > >>I don't think I've ever known anyone so unreflective. It's unfortunate >>because there are always lessons to be learned and there's no sign that >>Bush, or his controllers, have learned anything from the messes they've >>made. It was interesting (but scary also) to hear Bush's enthusiastic >>belief in his ability to change the world for the good. It doesn't match >>what's happening. Such a not-matching-reality attitude would be called >>grandiosity and considered a sign of ill health in anyone else... > > >I'm really perplexed by the things you wrote ..Debra. Don't we all want >to change this world for the good? I think except for the few zealots on >either side..our( end )goals are the same. I think where we differ is how >to get there: What polices should be implemented..and the strategies to >get a saner..more peaceful world. > >You know, I'm still so bewildered at the absolute hate and disgust that >people on this list feel for GWB. There seems to be more loathing for him >then the terrorists. I understand the philosophical differences with the >Bush administration..of course. But this is something far far different. > >paraphrase and add to an opinion piece I read recently: Harry Truman >>said the buck stops here (Mr. Responsibility). The Bushies say the buck >>never got here (so, la la la it's not myyyyy fault la la la la la). > >Do you think Bush is at fault for 9/11 ? > >The reporters (and that is what they are or supposed to be anyway..but >they THINK are some grand mission to get a gotcha!! moment.) biased as can >be.. they tried their damnest to get Bush to apologize. They sliced and >diced....employed tactics.... BUT it didn't work fellows. > >And if you think President Bush is the only president to be coached prior >to a a press conference? You are wrong. > >Like the bully on the playground.. after taking all you can... there comes >the time to just beat the ever loving daylights out of him. We.. the >world... let Saddam have his way for too long...we had to step in and stop >it. (cut him off at the knees) > >I saw two retired generals the other night on a program they wrote a book >together..I can't recall the name.. BUT..the crux of their message is that >9/11 was just coming attractions.... because if we don't stop these thugs >and dismantle these key terriost states now...WE AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN YET. >It's either on their shore..this fight..or on ours. > >In closing, there was enough justification for stopping Hussein for him >denying UN weapon inspections for so long...forgetting every thing else... > >It was and is the right thing to do. > >Bree > > > >>Debra Shea > >_________________________________________________________________ >Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your >waist. >http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise&article=et_pv_030104_lovehandles _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:10:02 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Bree gave us, among other things: > You know, I'm still so bewildered at the absolute hate and disgust that > people on this list feel for GWB. There seems to be more loathing for him > then the terrorists. I understand the philosophical differences with the > Bush administration..of course. But this is something far far different. I've been largely silent of late, but since you mentioned it, Bree... ;-) I was struck by the similarity in the language and terms bin Laden used to describe Dubya and his policies in his latest message to the world, and some of the vitriolic stuff posted here about GWB. Things like (and I'm paraphrasing, I don't have the text) "Bush is a danger to the whole world," "illegal war with no moral authority," "assualts against innocent women and children in Iraq," and on, and on, ad nauseam. Make of this what you will. > > It was and is the right thing to do. > Amen, Bree, amen. We're points of light in a wilderness here. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:12:31 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Bree wrote: "And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks." This is the attitude of the Bush administration in a nutsehll and why that administration has made the world a more dangerous place with its ill-advised war in Iraq. Our military is spread too thin already for us to reasonably expect that we can bully the world into accepting our will. Bree also wrote in a different post: "In closing, there was enough justification for stopping Hussein for him denying UN weapon inspections for so long...forgetting every thing else... It was and is the right thing to do." But the circumstances and timing of it were wrong. Also as evidenced by the current state of affairs in Iraq, the long-term consequences were not well planned for. June 30 should be interesting indeed. Whatever happens in November, I hope we actually get to elect our president this time. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:14:39 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: NJC W's Press conference PC A thousand points, Bush worshippers? > It was and is the right thing to do. > Amen, Bree, amen. We're points of light in a wilderness here. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:36:20 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Richard Flynn asked: > A thousand points, Bush worshippers? > > > It was and is the right thing to do. > > > > Amen, Bree, amen. We're points of light in a wilderness here. > Uh... THREE, at my last count...Kakki, Bree, and yours truly. And...that would be "Bush supporters," not worshippers. I actually worship Satan...Dubya is his prophet, and Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, Pearle, Frum, Krystal, et al, are His disciples. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:44:08 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference Catherine McKay wrote: > > I've heard that voter turnout in the US tends to be > really poor. Is this true? If so, why is that? I think 50 years of television has lobotomized a large percentage of the population. I know other countries have TV, but I doubt if they watch it an average of 10 hours a day. That can make you apathetic and stoopid. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:50:27 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Bree asked me: > Why are you up at 1:34A worring about Bush being a IDGIT? ;-) Couldn't sleep. The war -- and other, more mundane things -- is keeping me awake at nights. > Shouldn't you guys be placing ALL your hatred for Bush into something > positive? Like getting Kerry elected. Please don't dump me in with "you guys," whoever they might be. I have never said I hate George W. Bush. Hatred takes too much energy, and he doesn't deserve that kind of expenditure of my precious resources. > Oh ..I forgot..there is no passion or excitement for Kerry. > > It's just about beating Bush. For me, it mostly IS about getting Bush out of office. I like Kerry just fine, but I will vote for just about anyone is a strong enough candidate to beat Bush in the election. > And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Really? You should. Perhaps not on a personal level, but you really ought to care what the rest of the world thinks about your nation. One of the reasons that 9/11 happened is because too many smug Americans weren't giving a damn. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:56:33 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Our vacationing president! Check out this Slate article: http://slate.msn.com/id/2098861/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:09:14 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Lori sez: > One of the reasons > that 9/11 happened is because too many smug Americans weren't giving a damn. > Uh, wanna elaborate on THAT one just a wee little bit, Lori? Like, we're so busy watching American Idol, reading "People," buying SUVs, and otherwise not giving a damn and the next thing we know airliners are flown into buildings and 3,000 of us idjits are incinerated? I don't follow. bp, who's leaving for the weekend in about 30 minutes but can't WAIT to see his in-box on Monday ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:10:01 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC In a message dated 16/04/2004 17:45:10 GMT Daylight Time, bree_mcdonough@hotmail.com writes: << You know, I'm still so bewildered at the absolute hate and disgust that people on this list feel for GWB. >> Ambrose Bierce defined an optimist as "a proponent of the doctrine that black is white". I think you're being excessively optimistic about Bush's capabilities. << There seems to be more loathing for him then the terrorists. I understand the philosophical differences with the Bush administration..of course. >> I would heartily dispute the first of those assertions; I think you are building a straw man here, rather like the assertion made by many people (I don't mean that you were one of them, as I don't know) against those opposed to the war that they must perforce prefer Saddam Hussein to be in power. It doesn't work like that. Personally, I don't hate him more than the terrorists; I don't even think he's particularly "evil" (to use one of his own favourite words). I think he is clueless and ill-equipped intellectually to handle a job he is only doing because he is not as scary to voters as the people who are really making things happen, ie Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfovitz and co. As others have already commented, your assertion that you don't care what the rest of the world thinks is emblematic, to me, of the way the current administration thinks. Bugger the Kyoto agreement, bugger the non-proliferation treaty, bugger those liberal wusses who want a world court. I also think that "Anyone But Bush" is an entirely defensible electoral strategy, founded not on negativity (you'd have to travel far to beat the GOP for negative campaigning, from what I can see) but on pragmatism and an acknowledgement that this shower in White House at the moment need to be dispatched from office before they screw up the country any further. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:33:42 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Bree, who reminds me of many of my relatives in Ohio, wrote: > You know, I'm still so bewildered at the absolute hate and disgust that > people on this list feel for GWB. There seems to be more loathing for him > then the terrorists. I understand the philosophical differences with the > Bush administration..of course. But this is something far far different. How ironic. I was exactly as bewildered at the Repub's loathing of Clinton, which started LONG before the "meaning of is." What was THAT about, anyway? Oh that's right: Clinton was a liar. Isn't GWB? As for the "loathing" of GWB, perhaps "fear and loathing" would be a more appropriate description of the way his opposition feels. Personally, I'm much more afraid now than I was when Reagan was president, and I was VERY AFRAID then. Lori, wondering what Hunter S. Thompson has to say about this ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:03:28 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference PC Bree, I agree with you that it's confusing the way people see things so differently these days. I start from the point that, yes, the terrorists were responsible for 9/11 (and that's the one thing I didn't mind Bush saying in his press conference -- it was like a light bulb suddenly lit up in his brain). And, as I've written before, I had no problem with military action in Afghanistan against the Taliban and bin Laden, and just hoped it would be thorough, that few civilians would be killed or wounded, and that by the end of it all bin Laden would be captured, the Taliban would not exist and warlords would no longer be oppressing the people there, that women could get out of those godawful cage-like burkas and no longer be under house arrest, and that the country would be rebuilt, both the physical structures the U.S. destroyed and the political structures that some people wanted. In other words, I hoped that the U.S. would keep its promises. Instead of doing all that, Bush (guided by his handlers) decided that Saddam needed to be removed right now, and the Bushies lied and manipulated the American people into getting what they wanted. They knew there was NO connection between Saddam and 9/11, they were not sure there were any WMDs and yet they acted like they were certain and tossed out phrases about mushroom clouds and imminent threat in order to scare everyone, and while the U.S. military was diverted to finish the end of the first Gulf War (for reasons only the neocons know about), the terrorists were given free reign. And, if you don't think the Bushies did all of that, I suggest you do some reading. The May Vanity Fair article lays out the chilling details. All of that is why some people want the Bushies out of office. They cannot be trusted. And thousands of people are dying unnecessarily because of their manipulations. > I'm really perplexed by the things you wrote ..Debra. Don't we all want to > change this world for the good? Yes, and the leaders of countries are in a position to do that, and we hope they will be wise in their actions. Bush has caused more destruction and ill will and created more terrorists than existed before and yet he thinks he's the savior of us all. He is deluded. > paraphrase and add to an opinion piece I read recently: Harry Truman > >said the buck stops here (Mr. Responsibility). The Bushies say the buck > >never got here (so, la la la it's not myyyyy fault la la la la la). > > Do you think Bush is at fault for 9/11 ? No. I think Bush and Clinton and all of the people who worked in government for the past 30 years while the seeds of the terrorists' complaints were being planted and grew could have done a better job at protecting us. If the people in charge don't feel any responsibility to do that, and my complaint is that the Bushies don't seem to feel that responsibility enough to have taken any action at all, then who does? > And if you think President Bush is the only president to be coached prior to > a press conference? You are wrong. I'd expect anyone making their case to the American people to have a thorough understanding of the issues, and all speakers go through practice sessions. But Bush has his answers memorized! That's very very different than having and articulating a thorough understanding of the issues. > In closing, there was enough justification for stopping Hussein for him > denying UN weapon inspections for so long But the inspectors WERE there, Bree! Inspector David Kay said months before the war against Iraq started that there weren't any WMDs there, and the CIA told him to keep it quiet about it. So what was that about? > It was and is the right thing to do. That is Bush's story and he's sticking to it no matter what the evidence is to the contrary. I don't see anything admirable about that, and don't understand why anyone would take Bush's word as the absolute truth, so we'll just have to disagree on this, Bree. It may have been necessary at some point to take action against Saddam beyond the sanctions and flyovers. I don't know what action would have been most effective, but I do know that at this time, while al Qaeda rebuilds, what the Bushies chose to do has made the entire situation much worse than it already was. Bush calling Iraq another thee-a-tur in the war on terrorism is just an excuse for doing what his handlers wanted to do anyway. It wasn't a theater before he made it one. I think everything I've written has been said here before, and yet you and others don't understand it at all. I cannot comprehend why anyone would take Bush (or any politician) at their word and not look any further. So, the agreement to disagree continues... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:04:13 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S Lori wrote, wondering: > wondering what Hunter S. Thompson has to say about this Ah, c'mon, Lori....You **know** HST is an acid-eating, gun lovin', addled, old, and **staunchly** Republican, sum'bitch, right? Kinda like someone else we know and love. And HST USED to be one of my faves, as you well know (fer sure). bp, who really IS leaving...soon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:05:31 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? >> One of the reasons that 9/11 happened is because too many smug Americans >> weren't giving a damn. > > Uh, wanna elaborate on THAT one just a wee little bit, Lori? Like, we're so > busy watching American Idol, reading "People," buying SUVs, and otherwise > not giving a damn and the next thing we know airliners are flown into > buildings and 3,000 of us idjits are incinerated? I don't follow. That's part of it, for sure. Americans are so concerned with our "entertainment" that we often forget to take a moment to be thankful that most of us (and certainly 99.9% of the people on the internet) can walk over and turn the handle for hot water pretty much anytime we want. Nevermind that millions of people barely have enough drops of clear cool water to survive. The U.S. is the wealthiest country on the planet but we can't figure out a way to make sure that even our own citizens have enough to drink and eat, let alone be bothered with anything other token gestures towards the rest of the world's poor. god forbid anything interfere with our pursuit of happiness or take an extra dime from our pockets. I'm not saying I'm doing everything I can do to help, either. I can certainly do more. What I was primarily referring to, though, is our smugness in believing that because no tanks have ever rumbled through these streets that "it can't happen here." Oh sure, there was WTC '93 and this or that other relatively small attack. Of course when OKC happened many immediately sought to blame "the Arabs." But I digress. We have so many flaws in our foreign policy that it was really not that surprising to me that 9/11 happened. We don't take the time to understand anything about cultures in other lands -- in fact, when we visit, many Americans are put out that THEY aren't trying to speaking English so as to accommodate US. We don't seem to appreciate that just because capitalism "works" here, that maybe it's not for everyone. Most of the world is not of the Christian faith, but we make no effort to understand or appreciate that others feel at least as strongly about their own faiths, and why they think we're sinful infidels who must die. Shit, John Ashcroft is so puritan he's covering up tits on statues, but we can't comprehend that women who don't cover their heads, et cetera, UPSET many men (and women) who following the teachings of Islam. We're too smug; we think we're right about everything; we just don't care to take time from our busy important lives to LEARN anything so we might have a chance to discuss it with "them" and maybe, just maybe, come to some sort of understanding. Shooting from the hip, and now needing to go back to doing the work I get paid to do, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:12:45 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Now I'm emotional... It's a very small world, this little marbled bowling ball that we're all riding on. You might want to reconsider your self-centered attitude. It is ugly. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:16:24 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S Buck asked me: > Ah, c'mon, Lori....You **know** HST is an acid-eating, gun lovin', addled, > old, and **staunchly** Republican, sum'bitch, right? Kinda like someone > else we know and love. And HST USED to be one of my faves, as you well know > (fer sure). LOL ... yeah, I actually did know that. AND that HST was one of your faves. (He's no longer one?) HST reminds me of Ted Nugent in more than a few ways. I actually have a lot in common with Thompson, though, to wit: I'm acid-eating, gun ownin', often addled, and approaching old (my nieces think I'm ancient). And as far as I can tell, becoming Republican often happens have a little money. Lori, who has a little money too, but still registers as a Democrat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:22:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S you'd think he'd be cutting this regime ("A 2nd Generation of Swine") a brand new assh_le too. Where is it? Em - --- Norman Pennington wrote: > Lori wrote, wondering: > > > wondering what Hunter S. Thompson has to say about this > > Ah, c'mon, Lori....You **know** HST is an acid-eating, gun lovin', > addled, > old, and **staunchly** Republican, sum'bitch, right? Kinda like > someone > else we know and love. And HST USED to be one of my faves, as you > well know > (fer sure). > > bp, who really IS leaving...soon. ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:26:44 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: The huge posts about US politics and Iraq NJC Lucy wrote: > > There is an arrogant assumption that we have something to offer them that is > better than what was there. Democracy Western Style is not the Iraqi way... > They have their own way of governing and it is not for us to say how they > should run their country. Would you accept it? I think not... > > Well I say...... let them re-build their fractured towns because we bombed > them, let them re-build their roads because we bombed them, let them take > charge, let them govern to the way that is acceptable to them. They can thank > the Alliance nations (if they feel inclined to do so) by supplying us with > cheaper oil over a period of time, since they are probably nationally > bankrupt, and then it can all be fair and square.. If they want an armed > presence there then they can pay us in oil... > > Lets be fair... It is time to stand back and see what can be done... I am > perhaps naive (oh I can hear the guffaws at the rifle clubs already, and the > martini stirrers clink to the sides of the glasses at the very suggestion) but > why not. > Surely we can hand over to the Iraqis that which is theirs? Lucy, I can write nothing else after reading your post other than it touched me and was profound. Has me thinking heavily. Thank, Mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:39:13 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > > > And Frankly..I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. > > Now I'm emotional... > > It's a very small world, this little marbled bowling ball that we're all > riding on. > > You might want to reconsider your self-centered attitude. It is ugly. > > Debra Shea Nothing ugly about this woman named Bree, including her attitude, the latter of which we all have. As I see it, she simply stated how we all feel but won't admit. More power to her feelings and the expression of such because they are hers. 'if you're tired of the silent night, well then you yell it', 'strike every chord that you feel'- joni mitchell Self-centered? She simply isn't capable of such and that is fact of which I know. mack np: our dear joan (not always nice, not always politically correct, but always joan)--for the roses ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:41:07 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S HST writes a regular column for espn.com and I believe he's also in one of the SF dailies (Examiner?). As far as him being a Republican, here's and excerpt from a recent column: "About 13 minutes into the first half, I got so bored and disgusted that I flipped over to watch a George Bush speech about freedom and democracy in Iraq. But that, too, was sickening. I FELT THE FEAR COMING ON. How long, O lord, How long? This blizzard of shame is getting a little old, isn't it? Just how low do we have to fall, before the voters catch on? Indeed. How many times can a man be robbed -- on the same street, by the same people -- before they call him a man? Bob Dylan said something much like that in a tattered old song called "Blowin' In The Wind." Read it and weep, you poor bastards -- because Dylan was yesterday, and George Bush is now. That is a morbid observation, at best, and we are all stuck with it. The 2004 presidential election will be a matter of life or death for the whole nation. We are sick today, and we will be even sicker tomorrow if this wretched half-bright swine of a president gets re-elected in November. Take my word for it. Mahalo." Lori Fye wrote: >Buck asked me: > > > >>Ah, c'mon, Lori....You **know** HST is an acid-eating, gun lovin', addled, >>old, and **staunchly** Republican, sum'bitch, right? Kinda like someone >>else we know and love. And HST USED to be one of my faves, as you well know >>(fer sure). >> >> > >LOL ... yeah, I actually did know that. AND that HST was one of your faves. >(He's no longer one?) HST reminds me of Ted Nugent in more than a few ways. > >I actually have a lot in common with Thompson, though, to wit: > >I'm acid-eating, gun ownin', often addled, and approaching old (my nieces think >I'm ancient). And as far as I can tell, becoming Republican often happens have >a little money. > >Lori, >who has a little money too, but still registers as a Democrat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:20:14 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S David shared Hunter S. Thompson's words on Bush: > That is a morbid observation, at best, and we are all stuck with it. The > 2004 presidential election will be a matter of life or death for the > whole nation. We are sick today, and we will be even sicker tomorrow if > this wretched half-bright swine of a president gets re-elected in > November. Take my word for it. Mahalo." Woo! Thanks, David!! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:24:46 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S David said: < "The 2004 presidential election will be a matter of life or death for the whole nation. We are sick today, and we will be even sicker tomorrow if this wretched half-bright swine of a president gets re-elected in November. Take my word for it. Mahalo.">> ah. excellent. so even some of the "staunchly republican" see now what i've seen all along.... ;o) (quick brush-with-fame story... once upon a time, HST offered me cocaine in the ladies' restroom at the university of alabama at birmingham.) cindy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:29:05 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: NJC Was W's Press conference PC, now Hunter S Which Republicans are you claiming he's supported? From what I've read, HST's politics are pretty much the same now as they were in 1972. Cynthia Vickery wrote: >David said: ><recent column: > >"The 2004 presidential election will be a matter of life or death >for the whole nation. We are sick today, and we will be even >sicker tomorrow if >this wretched half-bright swine of a president gets re-elected in >November. Take my word for it. Mahalo.">> > >ah. excellent. so even some of the "staunchly republican" see >now what i've seen all along.... ;o) > >(quick brush-with-fame story... once upon a time, HST offered me >cocaine in the ladies' restroom at the university of alabama at >birmingham.) > >cindy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:45:45 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - See, Bree? Colin observed: > Kyoto, Guantanamo(still no one cares about this, not even here on the jmdl), I wouldn't say no one on the JMDL does not care about Guantanamo. We haven't written about it, is all. I think the way the prisoners (note that I didn't say "detainees") are being treated is an abuse of basic civil rights -- and quite likely human rights as well. I don't buy the reasoning that because they are not U.S. citizens that they are not entitled to the same rights that I'm supposed to have. The United States should be above board and beyond reproach in the area of civil and human rights. ESPECIALLY when nothing has been proved against these people. Lori, completely convinced it's just a short step from "them" to me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:51:26 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Woman of Heart and Mind (no PC, hooray) I finally picked up the DVD a couple of weeks ago. As the first time I saw it was on a REALLY badly recorded VHS tape, it was a sheer delight to watch and listen to it again in pristine DVD quality; a true feast for the eyes and ears. A few thoughts: - - Woodstock was a real goose pimple moment. Wow! - - I've figured out the Maria Muldaur connection! I posted a question a couple of months ago trying to suss out which Joni song Mad Mad Me (the last song on Maria's self-titled album) reminded me of; well, the answer came in WOHAM: it's The Arrangement. Anyone else hear that? - - Joni's singing of Blue brought tears to my eyes. Overwhelmingly emotional stuff. - - No mention of Hissing?? This has been mentioned before, but the absence is no less jarring second time round. Not much about DJRD either. Not a balance I agree with. - - Thomas Dolby deserves a damn good thrashing for what he did to Dog Eat Dog. There are some pretty solid songs there, and it sounds like an 80s mess - are there any other Joni albums that have dated quite so horribly? - - Joni's meeting with Kilauren was another eye-moistening moment. - - I can't believe they would cover Wild Things and find no space for Chinese Cafi, which as far as I'm concerned is *easily* the best song not only of that record but indeed the best song Joni's written since Mingus - and not only that but of course it alludes to Kilauren. - - Towards the end, the performance of Big Yellow Taxi: the audience applauding halfway through the song: WTF is that all about?? - - The extra performances at the end: couldn't they have included a few from different periods. About the only real disappointment in what actually *is* in the whole doc is that there are so many performances from what is, for this fan, a less-than-thrilling concert. A wonderful documentary, all in all - and I could have done with it being twice as long, quite seriously. There was never a dull moment, and I'd love to have heard and seen more. Azeem in London ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #172 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)