From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #166 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 13 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 166 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Connecting the dots, 100% JC, now 100% NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: money money money njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Almost famous, but VERY wrong NJC??? ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Almost famous, but VERY wrong NJC??? [Em ] name game njc ["tantra_apso" ] Re: name game njc [Em ] Re: name game njc [Smurfycopy@aol.com] anti-war from the very begining [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) [Em ] re: Almost Famous, but VERY wrong ["c Karma" ] njc so called democracy ["Paul Mepschen" ] Re: Bush Doctrine--(much) long(er), now (NJC) (PC) ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: njc so called democracy ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) [Lori Fye ] Joni's art [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni's art [Em ] Re: anti-war from the very begining [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: anti-war from the very beginning [Jerry Notaro ] Joni the observer! ["amelio747" ] Re: anti-war from the very begining [Em ] Re: njc so called democracy ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: anti-war from the very begining [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: anti-war from the very begining ["anon anon" ] njc dream of jmdl'ers ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: anti-war from the very begining [Lori Fye ] Re: anti-war from the very beginning ["rflynn@frontiernet.net" ] Re: Re:NJC [Em ] Re: anti-war from the very beginning now NJC [Em ] njc knit nuts ["tantra_apso" ] Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) [Em ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:08:09 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Connecting the dots, 100% JC, now 100% NJC **Some time in May 67 Joni was at The Other Side in Fayetteville, NC USA, according to Simon.** And of course Fayetteville is where Fort Bragg is. It's also called "Fayette-Nam" because of the strong military presence there. Bob NP: 10,000 Maniacs, "A Campfire Song" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:15:19 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: money money money njc **one thing i always thought very weird is that a lot of christianity seems to be based on his interpretations... or am i off about that ?** No, you're right...the letters of Paul to the various churches he helped start come right after the Gospels in the New Testament, and there's a bunch of 'em. People blur what Paul wrote with the teachings of Christ, hence you get misguided zealots using his letter to the church in Rome to justify their own discrimination of women and gays. And it's a shame too, because Paul wrote some real good stuff. He just lacked an editor. Bob NP: Everything But The Girl, "Temperamental" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:11:28 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: Almost famous, but VERY wrong NJC??? Nuriel. I, too,.... did notice the time travel element in the film..in that Blue was out out time, but hey it was there!!! Ahead of its time, ahead of the game and just a blessed sight. "Almost Famous" remains one of my very favourite films of all time. I think I just love the whole feel of it. There is one scene that always leads me to tears and it is when they are all travelling on the bus. The sun is going down and they all seem (for once) to be peaceful and happy.... and the opening piano sequence from Elton John singing TINY DANCER, starts up. That song has such amazing resonance for me from a time when everything was possible, the world was a crustacean of my choosing, and there was so much simplicity in the everyday turning of the world. The second favourite scene is the one in the plane where they all think they are going to die and start being really honest with each other... Very funny. Those of you who have not watched it DO.. it is a heartwarming film with some great music. Lucy, signing off from here to enjoy another English Spring day. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:42:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: (NJC) Tom Robbins ... Lieve!? now large-print books for old fogies --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: Bestsellers suck overall. Two summers > ago I forced myself to > read nothing but bestsellers and I was flabbergasted > at what sells millions! > Danielle Steele is just the tip of the poop pile! > "Life of Pi" may be one I've > missed, though. I dunno. Anyone like it? > I read it. I liked it. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Re:NJC --- tantra_apso wrote: > amusing and pointed! > On a more serious note, I have heard many a parent > speaking oin glowing > terms about their children's success like 'she is a > dr', or he is a lawyer' > or 'a ceo' or a pilot or a host of things like that. > i have NEVER heard a > parent boast about how kind, or loving, or peaceful, > or trustworthy their > offspring are. it's always about what they do and > not what theya re. That is > sad. Very true, and a very sad reflection on our cultural values (or lack thereof). People live through their children and you would think they'd be more interested in their children's character and less in how Johnny or Susie become a "success" at some job or other. Everything is about how things look on the surface and not how they truly are underneath it all. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 05:48:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Almost famous, but VERY wrong NJC??? Hi Lucy I have to agree with you about "Almost Famous". Whatta joyful flick for me. Captured the energy and "feel" of that era almost uncannily. I truly felt transported back in time. Felt like as if I'd come upon an old pair of my embroidered bell bottoms in some old closet, and not only did they look great..but they FIT!!!!!! That flick was SUCH a feel-good thing for me. And yeah the "Tiny Dancer" bus scene....makes the little hairs on my arms stand up, still. Silly huh? But I remember when Elton was kind of "cutting edge" and damn that stuff was good. So I can't NOT sing along to Tiny Dancer any more. I guess I would have been a year or 2 younger than William in the flick, but the feeling is the same. I remember hoarding my copies of Creem mag and reading them forever. And my old Rolling Stones, from back when it used to fold into 1/4 sheet size. Still have a couple of those. Hadda sneak off and buy them, ride my bike aorund the lake, as my parents wouldn't get them for me, cuz it was so subversive, lol..hehehhhhh.... That movie was a blessing for me. There was that other "inconsistency" though (I think) where Frances Mc. in the phone scene w/Billy Crudup, attributes that quote to Goethe and it was really from someone else, who in my ignorance I've never heard of. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Glad to hear someone else loved this flick. I'll go out on a limb here and say it was the "American Graffiti" for my generation. Fair? :) Happy Tuesday folks! Em - --- Lucy Hone wrote: > Nuriel. I, too,.... did notice the time travel element in the > film..in that > Blue was out out time, but hey it was there!!! Ahead of its time, > ahead of the > game and just a blessed sight. > > "Almost Famous" remains one of my very favourite films of all time. I > think I > just love the whole feel of it. There is one scene that always leads > me to > tears and it is when they are all travelling on the bus. The sun is > going down > and they all seem (for once) to be peaceful and happy.... and the > opening > piano sequence from Elton John singing TINY DANCER, starts up. That > song has > such amazing resonance for me from a time when everything was > possible, the > world was a crustacean of my choosing, and there was so much > simplicity in the > everyday turning of the world. > > The second favourite scene is the one in the plane where they all > think they > are going to die and start being really honest with each other... > Very funny. > > Those of you who have not watched it DO.. it is a heartwarming film > with some > great music. > > Lucy, signing off from here to enjoy another English Spring day. ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:06:48 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: name game njc I am keeping 4 of the Apso pups, Gompa(male) and Nokia and Dharma(females). Have one boy left to name. I want soemthing odd and vaguely tibetan. okay i know Nokia is a town in finland and a mobile phone but I still like it and her aunty is named that. so i wnat a boys name...if you wnat to play. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: name game njc Hi Colin, how about "Rompe"..its Spanish, but seems to go with "Gompa" somehow. Imperative form of "romper" "to break or make kaputt". (I think) :) Hey you asked! Em - --- tantra_apso wrote: > I am keeping 4 of the Apso pups, Gompa(male) and Nokia and > Dharma(females). > Have one boy left to name. I want soemthing odd and vaguely tibetan. > okay i > know Nokia is a town in finland and a mobile phone but I still like > it and her > aunty is named that. > so i wnat a boys name...if you wnat to play. > bw > colin > http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:32:38 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: name game njc Colin writes: << I want soemthing odd and vaguely tibetan >> From a Web site you might want to check out: Here are a few Tibetan words with their English meanings that you might want to consider when naming a new Tibetan Spaniel or Tibetan breed puppy. Any corrections or additions to the list will be greatly appreciated. For other possible choices, try a Tibetan dictionary << http://tibbies.net/reference/tibnames.html >> Also, for "Some Common Tibetan Names and Their Meanings": http://www.kadampa-center.org/tibetannames.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: anti-war from the very begining You don't have to wait till Woodstock to hear the anti-war voice. It can be found even in Joni's first album, and it's first song "I had a king": Ladies in gingham still blush While he sings them of wars and wine But I in my leather and lace I can never become that kind Love, Nuriel Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:48:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) thanks for posting the link to that article! So, a request: can anyone show me where I might see some of JM's visual art on the web?? Am hungry to see this stuff. I could start google-ing around I suppose, but if someone knows right off hand where some can be found that would be easiest. BTW to me even JM's music is "visual art" in a way..like Neil Young with that line in Cinammon Girl "a dreamer of pictures, I run in the night"...anyway, the best music to me, gives you "visuals". But I would love to see what JM puts on a 2-d surface. All I've seen are the album cover art pieces. thanks! Em ps where's Lori today??huh?? - --- OzWoman321@aol.com wrote: > Hello, All - > > Nuriel... and then Lori... posted: > > > >And as for the "fingers" part of the subject - could someone > please > > explain > > >to me how on earth can Joni paint so much, but claim she can't > play? > > > > Perhaps Joni just doesn't have *it* in her to play anymore, except > for > > perhaps > > herself and those closest to her. I'm thrilled that she wants to > paint! > > Paint > > on, Joan. > > When I was doing research for trivia tidbits to sprinkle throughout > our Joni > Birthday Concert this past November, I came across the following > quote from > Joni which seems to address this issue: > > "I sing my sorrow, I paint my joy"... > > http://www.jonimitchell.com/Folio/Folio.html > > > Enough said... :-) > > Susan > http://www.heartsdesireconcerts.com > http://www.horseofadifferentcolorbooking.com > > > "I'm the kid who has this habit of dreaming > Sometimes gets me in trouble too > But the truth is I could no more stop dreaming > Than I could make them all come true..." ~ Buddy Mondlock ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:53:03 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: Re: name game njc bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Em" To: "tantra_apso" ; "jonilist" Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:13 PM Subject: Re: name game njc > Hi Colin, how about "Rompe"..its Spanish, but seems to go with "Gompa" > somehow. Imperative form of "romper" "to break or make kaputt". (I > think) > :) Hey you asked! > Em > I did and you came up with a good one. However, to dogs this would just be confusing. they would both answer to Gompa or to Rompe! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:55:56 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Almost Famous, but VERY wrong Actually, yes. The temporal incongruity of "Blue" in the scene was forewarned to the list prior to the actual theatrical release of "Almost Famous." I'd seen an advance screening and knew that Joniphiles would catch that one. Upon subsequent review, though I've come to accept the scene as a less literal but more achronistic metaphor to illustrate young William's musical awakening, precipitated by his sister's departure and inheritance of her record collection. Perhaps a keener eye than mine might find another example of a misplaced album that would not be present in that collection. Try to think of it as the flipping of calendar pages. Maybe I'm being charitable but Cameron Crowe's stock as a Joni Mitchell fan and supporter is pre-eminent. CC (no, does not stand for Cameron Crowe) "A celluloid rider comes to town. Cinematic lovers sway." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:32:00 +0200 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: njc so called democracy Read Tariq Ali's account of how wonderfully democratic the US occupation of Iraq is... http://www.counterpunch.org/ali04102004.html Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:32:29 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Bush Doctrine--(much) long(er), now (NJC) (PC) patrick leader writes: > hey buck: > > i've been pretty passionate about a bunch of these issues lately, but like > kay, i appreciate your tone and willingness to respond. several things > jumped out, but i want to respond to one: > > kay wrote: > How about investing in > >> > espionage, international cooperation and international law to bring the > >> > terrorists into custody? > > and you wrote: > >> Forgive me, Kay, but reversing the funding shortfalls and general > >> evisceration of the intelligence apparatus enacted by the previous > >> administration will take a significant amount of time. > > evisceration of the intelligence apparatus by the previous administration? > i read a lot of news, and commentary, and i haven't heard anyone say that > clinton 'eviscerated' our intelligence apparatus. > > BUCK, COULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE A CITATION? A CONSERVATIVE SOURCE IS MORE > THAN FINE WITH ME, BUT I WANT A SERIOUS INTELLIGENCE ANALYST CITATION. > Hello Patrick, It is well known that intelligence budgets are highly classified and this fact has generated a LOT of heat and not much light since the Cold War. I googled the phrase "CIA Budget" and came up with the following: 1. http://www.fas.org/irp/commission/budget.htm See the graphs at the bottom of this page, particularly "Commission Figure 9-2" which reflects personnel reductions in the CIA & NSA, beginning in 1992. While there are no specific budgetary numbers, it is a given that personnel costs are the lion's share in any budget. 2. And this from an LA Times article http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-101201cia,1,7883996.story. Registration is required to access the LA Times site, but it's free. A small quote from this article: "Congress cut the agency's budget sharply in the early 1990s after the Cold War ended, and the CIA lost up to one-fourth of its work force. The losses hit hardest in the operations division, which runs the clandestine service. In 1995, for example, the division was only able to hire 25 new case officers, a fraction of those quitting or retiring early." "We needed several times that," said a former director of the operations division. "It was a terrible time. We didn't have the money. We didn't have the people. We closed a lot of stations overseas, especially in Africa, where you have a lot of Bin Laden cells." In addition, a series of spy scandals, especially the 1994 arrest of Aldrich H. Ames, a longtime CIA officer who had spied for the Soviet Union, sapped the agency of its swagger. Morale plummeted as new directors came and went almost yearly, and strict new rules and guidelines entailed closer scrutiny of officers' personal lives and work habits. "It became onerous to work in the intelligence community," said Robert Baer, a former CIA intelligence officer. "It became intrusive. Anybody with credit card debt was a potential spy" for a hostile nation. Yossef Bodansky, director of a House task force on terrorism and unconventional warfare, says the problems still persist. "We have lost our humint capabilities," he said. "We've been concentrating on electronic means of collection. We've neglected analysis. We've neglected long-term planning. We've put tremendous restrictions on our agents. Essentially you have to be the son of the pope and Mother Teresa to be hired as an informant." 3. And finally, this: http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1993/ja93/ja93Prados.html, a 1993 article about James Woolsey, Clinton's first DCI. An excerpt is below, primarily for the citation about Mr. Clinton's proposal to cut intelligence spending by $7 billion over five years. "As a one-time consumer of intelligence at the Pentagon, where he worked with Brent Scowcroft's strategic forces commission and on other defense assignments, Woolsey had to be aware that efforts to guard against the Cold War threat were redundant and expen- sive; and that intelligence placed great emphasis on instrumentalities: imaging or electronic intelligence satellites, which carry huge price tags. Using the Cold War as justification, the Reagan and Bush administrations roughly tripled intelligence spending, at least judging from the unofficial figures that leak every year, but which are never acknowledged. The crucial issue that follows from the changing nature of post- Cold War intelligence is whether the current budget levels- roughly $19 billion for national intelligence and another $10 billion for military work-are justified." "President Clinton came to office promising to cut intelligence spending by about $7 billion over a five-year period. Later, Woolsey created some confusion at his nomination hearings, testifying in support of the president's program, and saying that the CIA might even be able to do a little bit better than that-but generally making the case for more spending, not less. There is also confusion over whether the promised cuts were counted against current levels of intelligence spending-or against the even higher amounts provided in George Bush's last five-year program. Moreover, promised first-year spending cuts reportedly have been eliminated so that additional satellite launches could be funded. Since budgeting often proceeds automatically from the base figures in the previous year's budget, these actions and disputes call into question the entire Clinton administration intelligence budget-cutting enterprise." "Director Woolsey's comments regarding CIA personnel cuts also suggest an effort to protect the intelligence budget. According to Woolsey, personnel numbers are expected to fall over the next four years-at just about the rate of retirement. Since Woolsey is also talking about increased use of expensive high technology such as expert systems and artificial intelligence (undoubtedly to make up for fewer warm bodies), the net effect will probably be continued high levels of spending." End of research. I'd like to emphasize that I am NOT a political activist, nor a research-person. I like to think of myself as a moderately well-informed (and interested) citizen...nothing more. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:10:18 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: njc so called democracy Paul Mepschen gave us: > Read Tariq Ali's account of how wonderfully democratic the US occupation of > Iraq is... > > http://www.counterpunch.org/ali04102004.html Which only goes to prove William Randolph Hearst's School of Yellow Journalism is alive and well... bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:25:49 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: njc so called democracy A bit unfair. If you go to their About Us page they squarely say they are not journalists, but "Ours is muckraking with a radical attitude ." At least they are being up front about their politics and purpose. Jerry > Paul Mepschen gave us: > >> Read Tariq Ali's account of how wonderfully democratic the US occupation > of >> Iraq is... >> >> http://www.counterpunch.org/ali04102004.html > > Which only goes to prove William Randolph Hearst's School of Yellow > Journalism is alive and well... > > bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:32:07 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) Responding backwards to Em: > ps where's Lori today??huh?? I'm up to my earlobes in actual work today, believe it or not! Am taking my lunch break now, though. > But I would love to see what JM puts on a 2-d surface. All I've seen > are the album cover art pieces. There are some JM art-related videos about ... "Painting With Words And Music" is one, and you know there may be more. : ) I have a bunch of JM videos that I've loaned to a couple of JMDLers, and I'll be glad to send them to you if you'd like to copy them too. (I would copy them for you, but I don't have two VCRs.) > So, a request: can anyone show me where I might see some of JM's visual > art on the web?? Am hungry to see this stuff. I could start google-ing > around I suppose, but if someone knows right off hand where some can be > found that would be easiest. Check these out, courtesy of Ken Slarty: http://www.jmdl.com/shinytoys/art/ You may also want to download this screensaver, which has more images: http://www.jmdl.com/shinytoys/JoniArtScreenSaver.exe Lori, deciding between cucumbers and beef jerky ... hmm ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:38:45 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: The end or to be continued, Joni's fingers Yes and we never would have had PWWAM which is really enjoyable to watch. Love some of those versions! NP: Political Science - Randy Newman * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Fye" To: Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Re: The end or to be continued, Joni's fingers > Jerry wrote: > > > And we almost lost her before they came up with the VG-8. Though most of us > > were less than thrilled with the results. We did get to hear her perform > > that much longer. > > Quite true! Had it not been for the VG-8, I probably wouldn't have had the > pleasure of seeing Joni in New Orleans in 1995, or at Yasgur's Farm in 1998! > > My only "complaint" about the VG-8 is that I don't care for it on Taming The > Tiger. Otherwise, whatever makes it easier for Joni to play is fine by me, > even if I don't think she plans to play for *us* in the future. > > > As Simon sez: That's all, folks! > > Are you conferring with Simon on the sly, Jerry? And does Simon know something > he's not telling the rest of us? > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:38:51 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Paul and the Bible, NJC Kate wrote: one thing i always thought very weird is that a lot of christianity seems to be based on his interpretations... or am i off about that ? Hi Kate! I can't speak for all in Christianity, but I do know that the Catholic church, the heart of which is the Mass, is based a lot on the interpretation of John (with whom Jesus was deeply in love... the mystic) including the book of Revelation (sometimes attributed to John) which btw in Catholic theology has nothing to do with "rapture" and being "left behind" but is rather lived out during each Mass. John was the closest to Jesus so the emphasis on John's writings makes good sense to me. Although the Catholic church emphasizes certain parts of the Bible from time to time, it sees the book as a complete love story, not to be taken piece meal. Also, historical background and culture is considered when reading the Bible. For instance, the Catholic church doesn't take things literally like what St. Paul says about women and headcoverings or women speaking in the assembly which most Catholic scholars believe was Paul addressing a local situation with Mid East customs involved... something not aplicable to our culture today in a literal sense. Also, the Bible is seen not as a book that interprets itself but rather as a book to be interpreted by the ever evolving people of God, the pillar of truth which is the Church. Catholicism admits that the Bible came from the people, from the Church, but also it acknowledges that it is in a very miraculous way the inspired Word of God. For me, I wouldn't want to read the Bible without the help of the Church in interpreting it. I think it could be dangerous if I was to do that... kind of like having an American driver's manual and reading it and applying it on the roads in England. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:43:22 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining But there's nothing anti-war about that; it's merely a reference to Chuck Mitchell trying to woo girls at his concerts with his classic folk ballads. What in those lyrics gives you an impression of her taking an anti-war stance? An anti-CHUCK stance to be sure! Bob NP: The Stones, "Jumping Jack Flash" from "get yer ya-ya's out" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:47:47 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: NJC Parents Wow Colin! Never really thought about it like that before but you make a really good point. I'm sure it's not true for everyone but I know it is for a lot of people. Of course not discrediting professionals at all, but yeah it is kinda' sad... NP: Marie - Randy Newman * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "tantra_apso" To: "A. Millington" ; Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Re:NJC > amusing and pointed! > On a more serious note, I have heard many a parent speaking oin glowing > terms about their children's success like 'she is a dr', or he is a lawyer' > or 'a ceo' or a pilot or a host of things like that. i have NEVER heard a > parent boast about how kind, or loving, or peaceful, or trustworthy their > offspring are. it's always about what they do and not what theya re. That is > sad. > bw > colin > http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:51:12 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni's art Em, You can also see what's posted on JM.com: http://www.jonimitchell.com/jonihome.html#TheGalleries Unfortunately the best one is Raf's "Diary Of A Decade" and that is currently a dead link. But you should be able to get a pretty good sampling regardless. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni's art Thanks Bob. And also thanks Lori and Jamie too, for trying to hook me up. Couldn't find the diary tho. Will look more at all this stuff when I get home. Thx! :D Em - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Em, > > You can also see what's posted on JM.com: > > http://www.jonimitchell.com/jonihome.html#TheGalleries > > Unfortunately the best one is Raf's "Diary Of A Decade" and > that is currently a dead link. > > But you should be able to get a pretty good sampling regardless. > > Bob ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining Bob, Your question answers itself. The fact that he sings songs about war - not about love, nature, and peace - trying to woo girls, is what she finds revolting. But i guess it's a mix between anti-war and anti-chuck, and we're both right on the money this time. Love, Nuriel SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: While he sings them of wars and wine > But there's nothing anti-war about that; it's merely a reference to Chuck Mitchell trying to woo girls at his concerts with his classic folk ballads. What in those lyrics gives you an impression of her taking an anti-war stance? An anti-CHUCK stance to be sure! Bob NP: The Stones, "Jumping Jack Flash" from "get yer ya-ya's out" Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:13:46 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: anti-war from the very beginning > Bob, > > Your question answers itself. The fact that he sings songs about war - not > about love, nature, and peace - trying to woo girls, is what she finds > revolting. But i guess it's a mix between anti-war and anti-chuck, and we're > both right on the money this time. I'd have to agree with Bob on this one: I had a king dressed in drip-dry and paisley Lately he's taken to saying I'm crazy and blind He lives in another time Ladies in gingham still blush While he sings them of wars and wine But I in my leather and lace I can never become that kind Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Joni being anti war, but her being far beyond blushing in gingham anymore. She's already too experienced, "leather and lace," to fall for his songs of yore. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:17:31 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Joni the observer! Joni's songs are like paintings as she's said herself...and aren't paintings observations? Ok so they can be more than just observations and take on new meaning (s) like a photo can...well ok so her songs tell a story often and do have a message(s) but what I'm trying to say is that a lot of stuff she mentions is like the landscape...like in a book or a movie... 'Incidentals' (ouw headache). One of the reasons I like her music so much is because it's so detailed (instrumentally and lyrically), and in my opinion no one does it better than she does! NP: My Life Is Good - Randy Newman * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining I guess I took this to mean she, a leather and lace type, can never become a blushing gingham wearing lady. hmm.... Em - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > You don't have to wait till Woodstock to hear the anti-war voice. It > can be found even in Joni's first album, and it's first song "I had a > king": > > > > Ladies in gingham still blush > While he sings them of wars and wine > But I in my leather and lace > I can never become that kind > > > > > Love, > > Nuriel > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:28:26 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: njc so called democracy Jerry rightfully observed: > A bit unfair. If you go to their About Us page they squarely say they are > not journalists, but "Ours is muckraking with a radical attitude ." At least > they are being up front about their politics and purpose. Noted and agreed, Jerry. My point, though not well-stated, was this blurb (and most, if not all, others on this page) is propaganda, pure and simple. And propaganda purposefully distorts and misleads to achieve an objective...in this case, to mobilize the population against the war and increase the opposition to same. It's damned close to sleeping with the enemy in my book...but then again, that would be MY book, not yours or Paul's. Best Regards, bp > >> http://www.counterpunch.org/ali04102004.html > > > > Which only goes to prove William Randolph Hearst's School of Yellow > > Journalism is alive and well... > > > > bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:58:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining Or that she will never be like him, dress herself and her songs in "uniformes" and sing war songs...but both are true, Em. Love, Nuriel Em wrote: I guess I took this to mean she, a leather and lace type, can never become a blushing gingham wearing lady. hmm.... Em - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > You don't have to wait till Woodstock to hear the anti-war voice. It > can be found even in Joni's first album, and it's first song "I had a > king": > > > > Ladies in gingham still blush > While he sings them of wars and wine > But I in my leather and lace > I can never become that kind > > > > > Love, > > Nuriel > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:16:03 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining That's cool by me - I just think she used the word "war" to get an alliterative effect, but then again Joni chooses her words wisely for the most part, particularly so in this song. I mean..think about it. This would be the first song that most people would hear from her, since it was song 1, side 1. She would have come up with sequencing on her own. I'm sure she crafted IHAK with great care. Bob NP: The Stones, "If You Need Me" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:41:52 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: anti-war from the very begining Don't forget "The Fiddle and drum" either...That song is extroadinarily timely and relevent these days... >From: Nuriel Tobias >Reply-To: Nuriel Tobias >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: anti-war from the very begining >Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) > >You don't have to wait till Woodstock to hear the anti-war voice. It can be >found even in Joni's first album, and it's first song "I had a king": > > > >Ladies in gingham still blush >While he sings them of wars and wine >But I in my leather and lace >I can never become that kind > > > > >Love, > >Nuriel >Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:48:16 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: njc dream of jmdl'ers I had a dream two nights ago that three jmdl'ers came to my house. . . Hmmm. Guess who were here? Well, Patrick L. was here and also Anne Sandstrom. They were in my yard walking out of the side door and then down the walk. . . I remember wishing Anne a happy late birthday. There was one other woman here too. . .she was wholesome and loving. . . don't know who she was. interesting. . . Marianne (upstate NY, Rochester) _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:36:36 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: anti-war from the very begining I always figured Joni was juxtaposing a certain innocence (ladies in gingham, blushing) against at least some amount of worldliness (leather and lace), expressing that Chuck may be wowing the "star-struck" with his songs, but Joni knows better now and can't be wowed (at least by him) anymore. > I guess I took this to mean she, a leather and lace type, can never > become a blushing gingham wearing lady. > hmm.... > Em >> Ladies in gingham still blush >> While he sings them of wars and wine >> But I in my leather and lace >> I can never become that kind Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:40:03 -0400 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: anti-war from the very beginning I see it as a rejection of the conventionally feminine, too. The "King" is pretty retrograde in his sexual politics. It's also a way for the speaker (or rather singer) to claim sexual agency. No blushing gingham-clad passive sexuality for her. She's leather and lace (nice coxymoronic combo)and her sexuality can't be reduced to the feminine-stereotyped kind that the King prefers. She can choose to be alternatively aggressive or delicate or both at the same time. It's a rejection of the whole fairy tale script. Quoting Jerry Notaro : > > Bob, > > > > Your question answers itself. The fact that he sings songs about > war - not > > about love, nature, and peace - trying to woo girls, is what she > finds > > revolting. But i guess it's a mix between anti-war and anti-chuck, > and we're > > both right on the money this time. > > I'd have to agree with Bob on this one: > > I had a king dressed in drip-dry and paisley > Lately he's taken to saying I'm crazy and blind > He lives in another time > Ladies in gingham still blush > While he sings them of wars and wine > But I in my leather and lace > I can never become that kind > > Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Joni being anti war, but her > being > far beyond blushing in gingham anymore. She's already too > experienced, > "leather and lace," to fall for his songs of yore. > > Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:01:26 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: anti-war from the very beginning And too, she had been scammed by Chuck, what with him committing to take both Joni & Kelly/Kilauren, and then telling her after the marriage that he couldn't raise another man's child, so I think that Joni was "hip to his tricks" so to speak, albeit too late for her. Bob NP: Liane Carroll, "There Will Never Be Another You" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:03:40 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: Re: NJC Parents There is nothing wrong with success or professionals. However, we as humans tend to praise people fro what they do, not what they are. As someone or other said, we are human beings not human doings. What is the point of being a 'success' if you lack compassion, honesty, kindness, a gentle nature? We live in a world where success is revered. We also have the gaul to kid ourselves and others that anybody can be a success, that we live in afree world where anything is possible. Not so. we live in a meritocracy. if you are born with lower intellleigence, or a disability, or leter develop such, etc you are fucked. there is no way you will make it. Unless you win the lottery! There will always be the poor because we have engineeered it that way. We blithely say that people can pull themselves up with ahrd work ect and yes that is true for the able. We look down upon those who do menial tasks-like sewr cleaning, raod cleaning, rubbish collectors etc . Which shows us to be fools. We NEED these jobs to be done! Imagine if all the 'lowly' people said fuck you, we won't work. Just inagine the shit we'd be in! Myself, i ahve been lucky. My disabilites should have meant a life of poverty. People would ahve looked at me differently. in fact they did when i was on the streets. I was lucky, i married well and now live a very comfortable middle class life, new car every couple of years, trips abroad, a roof over my head and food and heat. People look at me differently. Yet I am the same person i was when on the streets. Yesterday, spending time with Kerry and wandering around the west End and soho, my old haunts, seeing the street people, the beggers etc, I never forget where I was. I look these people in the eye and smile when i say 'no', which is hard to do, but necessary. It makes a difference. It shows them you recognize them as human. and it is appreciated. They usally smile back and leave you alone. They harrass those that won't or can't look at them. These people are not there because they are lazy or wicked. theya re there because they ahve been let down. We, society, have created the conditions which allow them to be there. They are the ones crushed under the feet of our success. We need to stop kidding oursleves that we can have it all if only we would work. it's bollocks, bollocks, bollocks and only believed in by us because it is salve to our conscience. Our way only works, or has the possibilty of working, for those us lucky enough to be intelligent and able. the rest of us can rot and be blamed for it. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "amelio747" To: "Joni List" Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:47 PM Subject: Re: NJC Parents > Wow Colin! Never really thought about it like that before but you make a > really good point. I'm sure it's not true for everyone but I know it is for > a lot of people. Of course not discrediting professionals at all, but yeah > it is kinda' sad... > > NP: Marie - Randy Newman > > * * * * * * > Stephen T > > "I get the urge for going > But I never seem to go" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tantra_apso" > To: "A. Millington" ; > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:53 AM > Subject: Re: Re:NJC > > > > amusing and pointed! > > On a more serious note, I have heard many a parent speaking oin glowing > > terms about their children's success like 'she is a dr', or he is a > lawyer' > > or 'a ceo' or a pilot or a host of things like that. i have NEVER heard a > > parent boast about how kind, or loving, or peaceful, or trustworthy their > > offspring are. it's always about what they do and not what theya re. That > is > > sad. > > bw > > colin > > http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:21:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Re:NJC Colin wrote: > i have NEVER > heard a > parent boast about how kind, or loving, or peaceful, or trustworthy > their > offspring are. it's always about what they do and not what theya re. > That is > sad. My Mom tells people how good looking I am. But she is deluded. ;) Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:27:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: anti-war from the very beginning now NJC You guys!!!! You're ENABLING me!!!! lol, here I am supposed to be appreciating the jazz-Joni stuff and here you are giving me the *perfect* excuse to haul out SFAS. (which is my 2nd fave next to LOTC) I'm being de-weaned! :P lurv, Em - --- "rflynn@frontiernet.net" wrote: > I see it as a rejection of the conventionally feminine, too. The > "King" > is pretty retrograde in his sexual politics. It's also a way for the > speaker (or rather singer) to claim sexual agency. No blushing > gingham-clad passive sexuality for her. She's leather and lace (nice > coxymoronic combo)and her sexuality can't be reduced to the > feminine-stereotyped kind that the King prefers. She can choose to > be > alternatively aggressive or delicate or both at the same time. It's a > rejection of the whole fairy tale script. > > Quoting Jerry Notaro : > > > > Bob, > > > > > > Your question answers itself. The fact that he sings songs about > > war - not > > > about love, nature, and peace - trying to woo girls, is what she > > finds > > > revolting. But i guess it's a mix between anti-war and > anti-chuck, > > and we're > > > both right on the money this time. > > > > I'd have to agree with Bob on this one: > > > > I had a king dressed in drip-dry and paisley > > Lately he's taken to saying I'm crazy and blind > > He lives in another time > > Ladies in gingham still blush > > While he sings them of wars and wine > > But I in my leather and lace > > I can never become that kind > > > > Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Joni being anti war, but > her > > being > > far beyond blushing in gingham anymore. She's already too > > experienced, > > "leather and lace," to fall for his songs of yore. > > > > Jerry ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:28:01 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: njc knit nuts over on one of my knitting lists, they are discussing a knitting pattern for men's underwear!!!! and there is a knitting list for 'xtian ladies' who want to stay with the old ways, sort of like the Amish i guess. their speciality is knitting diapers and sanitary towells. Not much traffic cos I imagine as they wish to stay with the old ways they don't have a friggin pc! bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni's fingers (By Way of Sorrow - Julie Miller) Lori sed: > Check these out, courtesy of Ken Slarty: > http://www.jmdl.com/shinytoys/art/ My god I believe that woman is very nearly free. Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:34:42 -0400 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Is that Joni in the Revlon Commercial? There is this new commercial I have seen that has this woman's voice singing "I believe in love" anyone know if that is Mitchell - sure sounded like her! s. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:34:48 -0400 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Bush-NJC I am not crazy about the war in fact after watching "The Patriot" one wonders how sane men have ever been! Watching those guys march to a point and then blindly kill each other just astonished me it so vividly depicts the stupidity of politics. I can say I agree with anyone on Bush because more fundamental issues are being missed all around - the Iraq people worship extremists as their Icons while we peacefully worship Icons like Joni for example. The Iraqi people are clueless about our life and it was moronic to believe they would understand anything after the fall of Sadaam without a major influx of televisions and reruns of anything we watch commercial included so that they might understand what freedom is here! I am utterly bored to death with politics as usual - every one picks a side pro or con yet we still have not managed to grasp that a clear gap of incredible magnitude exists and isn't going to be resolved with defining one's political chic - "bang bang ketchup color to 'em" Its been almost three years now since 9/11 and people still act as if their ignorance of the rest of the world and all the subtleties that are played out daily are of no consequence - its just viva a 60's revival and forget about the details Just thinking out loud. S. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #166 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)