From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #154 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 154 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- trouble-shooting [Jennifer Faulkner ] Sunny Sunday ["c Karma" ] Re: DJRD and recommendations [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) ["tantra-apso" ] Re: DJRD and recommendations [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay [Randy Remote ] Re: welcome NJC [Deb Messling ] Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: DJRD and recommendations [Lori Fye ] Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) -- PC [Smurfycopy@aol.com] RE: DJRD and recommendations ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Bush and the Bible, njc [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! ["amelio747" ] RE: DJRD and recommendations [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: DJRD and recommendations [Lori Fye ] Re: welcome NJC [Em ] Re: images of a sunny sunday ["amelio747" ] Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Re: Bombing Mosques NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Bombing Mosques NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Bombing Mosques NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay [Lori Fye ] RE: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay [Smurfycopy@aol.com] DJRD not sure if this needs a NJC or not, probably [Em ] 9/11 posts (NJC) [Lori Fye ] Re: Welcome (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: 9/11 posts (NJC) [hell@ihug.co.nz] Re: 9/11 posts (NJC) [Lori Fye ] DJRD again [Em ] DJRD -- favorites? [Lori Fye ] Re: Welcome (NJC) [Em ] Joni's nude photo on FTR and the "kiss my ass" syndrom [Nuriel Tobias Subject: trouble-shooting Hello people, What do y'all mean by trouble-shooting? I thought only computers did that! Also, LAURA and anyone else, how do you learn to multi-task?! Thanks, Jen Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:36:31 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: Sunny Sunday "Sunny Sunday" for me, has always been one of those songs that drags others along for companionship. Among the companions I detect are 1."Tea Leaf Prophecy" which parallels "she said she's leaving here but she don't go" to "The streetlight's still burning ...she always misses. But the day she hits that's the day she'll leave, that one little victory that's all she needs." and 2. "Harry's House/Centerpiece". Joni seems to be denying it, but I think some of the song's strength lies in more autobiography within. Perhaps it is painful when ennui and a hangover become indistinguishable. CC "I swear on the streetlight on the corner shoving back the shadows." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:42:29 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD and recommendations Lori writes: << Did you know that Joni is ALL of the characters on the cover? Yep, including the pimp-lookin' dude on the front! : ) >> But she's not the young boy, is she? Who is he? Jody told me there was a discussion years ago about the boy's identity. Anyone remember? By the way, how's this for a personal Joni bombshell . . . When Jody and I went to visit MG in NJ in February, Jody played DJRD in the car and I realized I had never heard it! Some completist, huh? I have since heard it all and I love it love it love it. Whenever there was discussion about DJRD here, I always thought that I owned it but that it was one of the 80s Joni efforts that I had once listened to and put away forever. What an idiot! - --Smurf, enjoying the discovery of a "new" Joni many years after the fact ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:42:09 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ the fact that more than a few of the people running this country are > just as radical as Bin Laden. I think the Xtian fundies are evry bit as unbalanced and sahre a very similiar ideology to the Islamic fundies or Jewish fundies or any other sort of religious fundy. They only differ in their cloak-the underlying disease is the same. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:58:44 +0100 From: "tantra-apso" Subject: Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) On that day, i had been working upstairs and had come downstairs for a coffee break. i switche don the TV and saw rthe image of the first plane hitting the first twoer. I immediately changed channels as I wasn't interested in watching a film. The same film was on the second channel. By the time I changed to the third channel, which was showing the same film, it dawned on me that what i was seeing was not a Willis type film but LIVE tv and this was New York, the World Trade Centre, real planes and real screams. I sat glued to the tv for hours and hours after first writing a note here to the jmdl about what I was seeing. I also called John at work. I knew during those hours of watching like a cat caught in headlights, that this was just the beginning. we are millions and millions. Our govts are tiny in number. why is all this happening? bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: DJRD and recommendations Smurf, I just discovered DJRD this January and really love it too - had it on vinyl for years but never listened to it. Why? I tell myself it's because I had to wait until I reached a certain level of maturity in order to appreciate it (lie). The bigger sin was never giving HOSL a listen until last summer! Years wasted! Now it sits next to Hejira, topping my list of recordings I can't live without. Jenny Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: Lori writes: << Did you know that Joni is ALL of the characters on the cover? Yep, including the pimp-lookin' dude on the front! : ) >> But she's not the young boy, is she? Who is he? Jody told me there was a discussion years ago about the boy's identity. Anyone remember? By the way, how's this for a personal Joni bombshell . . . When Jody and I went to visit MG in NJ in February, Jody played DJRD in the car and I realized I had never heard it! Some completist, huh? I have since heard it all and I love it love it love it. Whenever there was discussion about DJRD here, I always thought that I owned it but that it was one of the 80s Joni efforts that I had once listened to and put away forever. What an idiot! - --Smurf, enjoying the discovery of a "new" Joni many years after the fact Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 13:09:32 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: DJRD and recommendations Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Gillian Apter wrote: > The PP party has been guilty, especially in the last couple of years, of > arrogantly manipulating the state media radio and TV channels and blatantly > lying about national and international affairs to suit their ends. I guess one difference between the Spanish and US people is that when our leaders lie arrogantly over and over again, we re-elect them. {We'll see). We have the same problem of the disaffected folks not voting. Don't know what it will take to get them off their butts- free beer maybe? I hear in Austrailia you get fined a couple hundred bucks for not voting. I would vote for a law like that. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 13:33:23 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: welcome NJC I love all this stuff also. I assume you're familiar with the "Silly Sisters" albums put out by Maddy Prior and June Tabor - those are terrific. >Em, the newbie wrote: > ><leap and fly, and Renbourn's solo stuff..love Bert Jansch's guitar >playing. Also Steeleye Span although their stuff is heavy handed a bit >sometimes. Remember that group "Rennaisance"?>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 10:36:31 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) Lucy Hone wrote: > ........ and all the time the number of dead is > mounting. I notice that they have stopped showing the flag draped coffins > and military welcome for the "fallen" on the telly.... Here in good old God-save-America there has been a White House ban on showing them at all-the bodies of the fallen soldiers are flown into a secret military base at night. Not a single photo. President Bush has not attended a single funeral, although he has had time to attend over 50 Republican fundraisers. Oh yeah, and he cut the soldier's benefits WHILE they were over there doing his oil business. What a guy. RR "We won't repeat the mistakes of Vietnam" - -G. Bush I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:58:22 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay My coworker Lisa was just lamenting the news and the war and the senselessness of it, so I felt I had to share with her Kay's post of yesterday. After Lisa was done wiping the tears from her face, she turned to me and said, "Kay Ashley is awesome." I agree. Something that strikes me again and again is that the people who were DIRECTLY AFFECTED by the attacks against the WTC -- and the Pentagon, despite that that culture is supposed to be about "defense" and war -- are the ones who seem to be the least supportive of our retaliation against "the enemy" (perceived or real). Could it be that, because they've witnessed such terrible death and destruction first-hand, they better understand the horrors we are perpetuating "in their name" in Iraq? Meanwhile, there are all these other Americans -- who weren't in the middle of 9/11 and who didn't lose loved ones and friends -- who are all about how great the war effort is. What's up with that?? Gives me pause for thought, anyway. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:07:06 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: DJRD and recommendations > Whenever there was discussion about DJRD here, I always thought that I owned > it but that it was one of the 80s Joni efforts that I had once listened to > and put away forever. What an idiot! The thing is, Smurf, DJRD isn't an 80s effort -- it was released in 1977, and it was the album that followed Hejira. Even Mingus counts as a 70s album, as it was released in 1979. I can still remember first hearing DJRD when I was living on the borders of North Dakota, Montana, and Canada (ya wanna see Paprika Plains, go there!). I don't recall if my first listen was in my room in the "barracks," or at Buck's rental house in Westby, MT, but I remember that I loved it right away. Buck, otoh, was generally disappointed. A few years ago, 1999 I guess, I was listening to DJRD on CD at work. One of the guys in the office, a dyed-in-the-wool rancher 50-something rancher named Lyles Houston, remarked how much he liked it and asked if it was a new Joni album. He was AMAZED to learn that it was 22 years old already! It's a timeless album, as are HOSL, Hejira, and well ... you know there may be more. : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:11:05 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) -- PC Randy writes: << Here in good old God-save-America there has been a White House ban on showing them at all-the bodies of the fallen soldiers are flown into a secret military base at night. >> How is this legal? I had heard about this and thought I must have misunderstood it. I don't watch TV, so I had forgotten about it, I guess. Also: << President Bush has not attended a single funeral, although he has had time to attend over 50 Republican fundraisers. >> Ugh! << Oh yeah, and he cut the soldier's benefits WHILE they were over there doing his oil business. >> Beneath contempt. I am not a big Kerry supporter, but I would vote for Nancy Reagan this time around -- ANYONE who is not GWB. Our system is not working when Washington's pols have turned into lapdogs for lobbyists and special interests while the electorate is kept stupid and easily manipulated by spin. We have squandered the good will the world had for us in the immediate post-9/11 period and spit in the eye of any lessons history may have had for us regarding dealing with terrorists. God help us and the world. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:46:37 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: DJRD and recommendations Lori & Co., You're gonna get me to listen to DJRD again, though I still only have it on vinyl. I remember liking it a great deal, but thinking that there was too little on each side, so one had to get up often to turn the records over. I guess I should get the CD, eh? Maybe it is timeless--I certainly agree with you about HOSL & Hejira. Since I grew up in Washington and lived there at the time, "Otis and Marlena" was always interesting to me. But--I'm workng from memory here--isn't this the lp with "Silky Veils of Ardor" on it? I *love* it when Joni rewrites traditional folk songs and recasts them in sonic contexts that aren't "folk." This and her rewriting of Corrina, "A Bird That Whistles" are very interesting--in musical contexts that are pretty far remove from folk music. Does anyone have any thoughts about the pull of the folk revival on Joni's work, even as she resists being categorized as a folksinger? I mean she does these folk songs at the height of jazz experimentation (all to the good) and in the depths (imo) of failed pop experimentation with guest stars (CMIARS). Richard Trying to avoid thinking about the current fiasco in Iraq, which has really disturbed me today. Bombing a mosque places this admin. squarely in my axis of evil. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Lori Fye Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:07 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: DJRD and recommendations > Whenever there was discussion about DJRD here, I always thought that I owned > it but that it was one of the 80s Joni efforts that I had once listened to > and put away forever. What an idiot! The thing is, Smurf, DJRD isn't an 80s effort -- it was released in 1977, and it was the album that followed Hejira. Even Mingus counts as a 70s album, as it was released in 1979. I can still remember first hearing DJRD when I was living on the borders of North Dakota, Montana, and Canada (ya wanna see Paprika Plains, go there!). I don't recall if my first listen was in my room in the "barracks," or at Buck's rental house in Westby, MT, but I remember that I loved it right away. Buck, otoh, was generally disappointed. A few years ago, 1999 I guess, I was listening to DJRD on CD at work. One of the guys in the office, a dyed-in-the-wool rancher 50-something rancher named Lyles Houston, remarked how much he liked it and asked if it was a new Joni album. He was AMAZED to learn that it was 22 years old already! It's a timeless album, as are HOSL, Hejira, and well ... you know there may be more. : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:56:48 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush and the Bible, njc Colin wrote: They don't want peace. They want Armageddon. They feel it is their God given duty to bring it about. They feel they are fulfilling biblical prophecy. Death and destruction is not the issue. After all, they will be safe with Jesus.... Hi Colin, Now there's a brilliant post! I don't know their Jesus... In my head I can hear Dylan singing, "You know sometimes satan comes as a man of peace." Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:03:16 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! Garret, I've also not seen Tori live which I really must do! I was gonna see her on the "Strange Little Girls Tour" and couldn't believe how fast she sold out. There were only a few UK dates for the Scarlets Walk Tour also, but considering the album had an American theme and she had a US hit with 'Sorta Fairytale' it's not too surprising she focused on the US more. I WILL SEE TORI LIVE!!!... but in the mean time the 'Live From New York' (96 or 97?) and 'Little Earthquakes' vids really are something and this 'Welcome To Sunny Florida' DVD I think is gonna' be so fab! NP: Cherokee Louise * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garret" To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! > Thanks for posting this Steve!! > I used to be able to keep up with new releasespretty well, but since i've > stopped buying musics mag's (read: rags) i'm totally out of the loop! > > I'll have to save up the pennies for it surely, but it sounds great! > Tori is one person that i've always wanted to see live but have just never quite > made it. She seems to never play Ireland. SInce i arrived in London she played > once, but it was announced the day before and the tickets were going on sale for > cash only at the venue the day of the gig. I had a bit of a wild night on the > town before that so didn't get up early and figured it would sell out > immediately. > > There's always a next time:-) I can be consoled with a good dvd! > GARRET > > np - patti smith, Peaceable Kingdom, live > (from the recent ULU gig i was at; i love this song. today i got the bootlegs > of the two gigs and they are great. there is filler on one of the discs of > Patti on the Jonny Wlaker show, radio 2. they played two cuts from the > forthcoming album and it sounds great; the new songs she played at the two gigs > are very promising! so i've now got two forthcoming things on the list! and > might just invest in the newest janet jackson, but it has not been well > received. ok, ill stop;-) > > > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:28:03 +0100 > From: "amelio747" > Subject: > > Sounds like this one's gonna' be amazing! I also heard there will be a > DVD of all her vids later in the year! Forwarded from thedent... > 'Welcome To Sunny Florida' DVD/CD > Updated April 5, 2004 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:17:34 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: DJRD and recommendations Excellent point, Richard. I think it's just the difference between following her own path, which is what she did with DJRD, and being influenced by Klein to bring in all the pop guests, which was the case with CMIARS. "A Bird That Whistles" from the same album is less the celebs and the gauze of the rest of it, which works in its favor to be sure. Bob NP: REM, "Pilgrimage" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:24:01 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: DJRD and recommendations Richard wrote: > You're gonna get me to listen to DJRD again, though I still only have it on > vinyl. I remember liking it a great deal, but thinking that there was too > little on each side, so one had to get up often to turn the records over. True, but then that's one of the pleasures I kinda miss about vinyl: the forced "pause" between sides, which often felt like chapters in a story or acts in a play. > I guess I should get the CD, eh? Maybe it is timeless--I certainly agree with > you about HOSL & Hejira. Since I grew up in Washington and lived there at > the time, "Otis and Marlena" was always interesting to me. Yes on the CD. And of course (as has been discussed here many times), there's the connection between "Otis & Marlena" and 9/11. I know Joni was referring to a specific event in 1977, but it still sounds like prophecy to me. > But--I'm workng from memory here--isn't this the lp with "Silky Veils of > Ardor" on it? Yes indeed! Great song. > Does anyone have any thoughts about the pull of the folk revival on Joni's > work, even as she resists being categorized as a folksinger? I mean she > does these folk songs at the height of jazz experimentation (all to the > good) and in the depths (imo) of failed pop experimentation with guest > stars (CMIARS). For some people -- and for the record industry, because they have to have a "category" for everything -- Joni is and always will be a folk singer. Of course that's selling Joni short. But there were so many people who essentially dismissed Joni when she released Court & Spark, because it didn't sound like what she'd been recording up to that time, and they didn't bother to give any of her later releases a chance at all. It's as if, as far as those "fans" are concerned, Joni released five folk albums (STAS, Clouds, LOTC, Blue, and FTR), and that was the end of her career. Of course these are the same people who constantly refer to Joni as a "60s icon," nevermind that she released new material all the way into 1998. Joni wrote GREAT folk songs, we all know that. But what about everything else? I'm looking forward to when the people who are "reviving" folk music (as if it disappeared into the ether and none was being recorded) progress to the rest of Joni's catalog and appreciate ALL of her genius. Crossing my fingers that will actually happen someday, Lori P.S. - > Trying to avoid thinking about the current fiasco in Iraq, which has really > disturbed me today. Bombing a mosque places this admin. squarely in my axis > of evil. You got that right. I wonder if David Frum (author of the "axis of evil" phrase") gets that?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:25:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: welcome NJC - --- Deb Messling wrote: > I love all this stuff also. I assume you're familiar with the "Silly > > Sisters" albums put out by Maddy Prior and June Tabor - those are > terrific. YES! "Doffin Mistress" and all that....absolutely lurvv it! Have it on vinyl. :) So GREAT to be around folks who know "my" music. Em < Subject: Re: images of a sunny sunday It's been interesting reading everyone's posts on this. When I listen to the song I feel like a person looking in...the character seems so real, Joni is very good at this. I've noticed Joni has wrote a few other songs about a character feeling trapped for some reason or another and wanting to escape their circumstance and the place that makes them think of it. Just think of 'River', 'The Arrangement', 'Cherokee Louise', 'Marcie', 'Free Man In Paris', 'The Hissing Of Summer Lawns'...all different I think, but the general feeling is the same... to escape... Yeah I think a lot of people can identify with that and I'm sure Joni's music is of some comfort to them. NP: Marie - Randy Newman - (the honesty in this song is truly beautiful) * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "magsnbrei" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: images of a sunny sunday > **all in all, one very powerful song, no matter how you look at it. > > to my above quote my bro Bob replied with: > > It sure is, Mags...thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think this is probably one of those Joni songs that we can easily place ourselves into, having been in any situation that we wanted out of. I've always thought of shotting the streetlight as a crutch, an excuse. She's not strong enough to leave on her own, so she invents something so that she can convince herself that she's not staying because of her own weakness but rather because she missed the streetlight again. > > I hear ya bro. I see the streetlight scenario like this, not so much a crutch, more like a focal point. Perhaps she's got this mantra going on inside her blurry vision (not being 'able' to leave) so it's a bull's eye or a street light or whatever she fixes her temporary focus on. The mantra that might go over and over again something like this ...gathering courage like dust in the doorway, it piles up at her feet. She might get psyched up when she sees her target right there in front of her and think (again and again in the same situation) to herself okay .. today's the day...if I hit this target, I'll leave. again, a powerful song. > > Of course, even if she's as bad a shot as I am (I assume I am, I've never shot a gun) one day she's gonna hit that light...then what will she do? Do you think she'll leave? I don't. I think she'll say "2 out of 3" or some such. > > good question.! I'd like to say yes in the hope that she will..but you know how it goes. It ain't easy babe. > > thanks for the reply. Joni encourages us to tell her what a song means to us, rather than giving her impressions. > > Mags > > np: calling all angels (on xpn) > > > > > > > ***** > your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle > everything i do is stitched with its colour. > w.s.merwin > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:38:01 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Lori writes: > Something that strikes me again and again is that the people who were DIRECTLY > AFFECTED by the attacks against the WTC -- and the Pentagon, despite that that > culture is supposed to be about "defense" and war -- are the ones who seem to > be the least supportive of our retaliation against "the enemy" (perceived or > real). Could it be that, because they've witnessed such terrible death and > destruction first-hand, they better understand the horrors we are perpetuating > "in their name" in Iraq? > > Meanwhile, there are all these other Americans -- who weren't in the middle of > 9/11 and who didn't lose loved ones and friends -- who are all about how great > the war effort is. What's up with that?? First: I read Kay's recent post and her 9/11 post (Thank you, Lori, for the link). Both were well-written and obviously come from the heart. Although I disagree with her opinions on GWB and his policies, I respect her point of view. Now: Please remember that although the great majority of the people who post here express a liberal POV, the population of this list does not represent the documented political split in the US (I cannot speak for the UK, Canada, Spain, Australia, or NZ). As best as I can remember, the split is about 50/50 on the current presidential candidates and significantly higher on how Bush is prosecuting the war on terror. There are a very large number of people who support Bush and his approach to dealing with terrorism just as passionately as the liberals who oppose him. What gets MY goat are the tangential arguments (e.g., "it's about oil"), the insults and purported ulterior motives (repeated accusations of "LIES! LIES!" and "he's doing it to enrich his friends"), the conspiracy theories (World Domination! PNAC!!), and finally the "we deserve it" argument...the most ludicrous of all. It's one thing to debate the issues and offer alternatives, it's quite another to offer insults and perpetuate the fantasies of loony conspiracy theorists and those who revel in self-flagellation. I'm still waiting to see a rational alternative to the Bush Doctrine, with emphasis on the word "rational." This war is serious and requires serious, concerted and dedicated action on our part if we are to survive and live in peace. Dubya is providing what we need. Just my $0.02. You may fire when ready, Gridley! Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:48:21 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Bombing Mosques (was: DJRD and recommendations) NJC Lori and Richard wrote: > > Trying to avoid thinking about the current fiasco in Iraq, which has really > > disturbed me today. Bombing a mosque places this admin. squarely in my axis > > of evil. > > You got that right. I wonder if David Frum (author of the "axis of evil" > phrase") gets that?? > For Gawd's SAKE!!! Those Marines were TAKING FIRE from those two mosques, so the Marines destroyed the buildings where the fire was coming from! The enemy used a mosque as a fire position, it was destroyed....Who's freaking fault is THAT? You guys need to get a grip... bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:52:05 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay > Dubya is providing what we need. Buck, I may have missed something (surely I have; it's not unusual), but can you please clarify exactly what necessities Shrub is providing? 'Cause he hasn't given me much of anything I need in this "war on terror," at least nothing I can identify. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! Quoting amelio747 : > Garret, I've also not seen Tori live which I really must do! I've seen her often, but last when Rufus Wainwright opened for her. Both she and he was spectacular. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:00:27 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Bombing Mosques NJC Buck was perhaps a bit outraged when he wrote: > For Gawd's SAKE!!! Those Marines were TAKING FIRE from those two mosques, > so the Marines destroyed the buildings where the fire was coming from! The > enemy used a mosque as a fire position, it was destroyed....Who's freaking > fault is THAT? You guys need to get a grip... There was no other way to go about dealing with the situation? Admittedly, I don't know, because I wasn't and am not there (and I thank my lucky stars for that). But must we completely dessimate a thousands-of-years-old country AND the places where its people worship to get the job done? Surely we're more clever and resourceful. (Otoh, we couldn't figure out a way to sneak a couple of soldiers or CIA guys in to take out Sadaam, although we must have that capability. No, we had to flex our dick muscles and "shock and awe" everyone -- methinks the only people we shocked were ourselves.) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:14:18 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Lori asked: > > Buck, I may have missed something (surely I have; it's not unusual), but can you > please clarify exactly what necessities Shrub is providing? 'Cause he hasn't > given me much of anything I need in this "war on terror," at least nothing I > can identify. > a. Taliban eliminated as a viable force and government in Afghanistan b. Removed Afghanistan as Al Qaeda sanctuary c. Killed or captured 2/3rds of Al Qaeda leadership d. Disrupted Al Qaeda and reduced their operational efficiency e. Eliminated S. Hussein as a threat f. Initiated action to introduce democracy in Iraq Item F is instrumental in the war's strategy, but is the most difficult to see. For brevity's sake, think about the emerging democracies in Central Europe and the former USSR, post Cold War. The people in those societies understand what this is all about and are among our strongest supporters. I am NOT mixing apples and oranges here...what I am on about is self-determination after decades of oppression, albeit under a different set of circumstances. But, oppression is oppression...whether it originates from a ruthless dictator, a commissar, or a mullah. Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:20:31 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: Bombing Mosques NJC Buck wrote, in part: <> And Lori responded: <> And now me: Resourceful? Yeah, "our troops" (well, not mine, and not doing my will, but you know what I mean...) were resourceful all right. Resourceful enough to bomb the area surrounding the mosque rather than the mosque itself, so the US can stay in that grey area of not *really* breaking the rules. Resourceful enough to bomb when civilians were gathering at the target mosque for their mandatory-if-you're-faithful afternoon prayers. Resourceful enough to say that "only" one "insurgent" was killed, though the folks on the ground report that there were at least 40 dead. God help us all if all involved continue to be so resourceful. peace, cindy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:21:13 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Bombing Mosques NJC Lori wrote: > Buck was perhaps a bit outraged when he wrote: Uh, yeah...I was. > > There was no other way to go about dealing with the situation? Admittedly, I > don't know, because I wasn't and am not there (and I thank my lucky stars for > that). But must we completely dessimate a thousands-of-years-old country AND > the places where its people worship to get the job done? Surely we're more > clever and resourceful. > I suppose we could have called in a hostage negotiator, or offered amnesty to the combatants, or promised psychological counseling, or help from the Small Business Administration, or whatever. OTOH, we could have (and did) simply kill the SOBs and get on with it. bp, feeling decidedly less touchy-feely today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:51:07 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Bombing Mosques NJC > OTOH, we could have (and did) simply kill the SOBs and get on with it. Well, damn those SOBs anyway, defending their country and their beliefs and all. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:57:05 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay > a. Taliban eliminated as a viable force and government in Afghanistan > b. Removed Afghanistan as Al Qaeda sanctuary > c. Killed or captured 2/3rds of Al Qaeda leadership > d. Disrupted Al Qaeda and reduced their operational efficiency > e. Eliminated S. Hussein as a threat > f. Initiated action to introduce democracy in Iraq a. You don't really believe that the Taliban won't reemerge as soon as we've turned our backs (as we eventually will), do you? b. Have we blown away all those mountains? Are we SURE Al Qaeda isn't still in hiding there? c. But no sign or capture of Osama bin Laden, yet. Hmm. d. Perhaps. Otoh, 200 Spaniards might disagree. e. Okay, I'll give you that. But at what cost? f. This is so arrogant on the part of the USA. We assume democracy is desired by everyone, just because it works for us. > But, oppression is oppression...whether it originates from a ruthless > dictator, a commissar, or a mullah. Or an Ashcroft? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:15:02 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Glad to know someone is in control--like the most vacationing President ever: "President Bush, vacationing at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, through Easter Sunday, was briefed on the spiraling violence and U.S. casualties in Iraq in a video conference call with his national security advisers as well as Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command and L. Paul Bremer, the top U.S. civilian in Iraq, the White House said." (MSNBC news story) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:20:26 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Her brain obviously snatched by aliens, Lori writes: << We assume democracy is desired by everyone, just because it works for us. >> Who is *us*? Democracy doesn't work for me when it puts an never-elected threat to the entire world in the White House. And it surely doesn't work for all the Florida voters who had their names purged from voter lists because of funny business with the Bush brother governor and Florida's corrupt secretary of state. Please, whoever you are, give us our beloved Lori back! - --Smurf, getting bluer all the time . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:32:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: DJRD not sure if this needs a NJC or not, probably wp: da LP. See you people are influencing me!!!!!!!! ok...dang its scratched tho...lessee if it chills out. Thanks for being there.. Em ps: Aunty Em's little old stereo (like anyone cares) = late 60's Sansui control amp and receiver w/ a round green dial that some old guy brought back from Japan. Late 70's JBL L-40's, they're decent - nothing more. Radio Shack turntable but a very good one. Onkyo power amp. This system shines old bad records "pretty" well. Yay the scratch chilled out. I dunno about this album..hmmmm ok gonna go listen. Had the colors wrong too..the blue is on top and the red is more, heck I dunno a dark saddle tan, not indian red. If I had to mix it I'd do burnt sienna and some ochre and a little white. for starters..... ;) ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:36:57 EDT From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again I say who cares what RS has to say ? I stopped reading what that rag spews out years ago. At one time I was even a subscriber; I think I canceled my subscription around the time of the infamous HOSL review. Like everything else in this country they sold out. We are not a democracy; our form of government is capitalism! Joni has always gone against the grain and I admire her for that...she whines at times, she earned the right to. There are few artists of her stature who will have the lasting effect on music that she does. That handful of artists are rarely mentioned in RS...to quote Lily Tomlin, " and that's the truth!" Jonily Yours, Warren Keith p.s. Bob, I've got the Timothy White book too, I bought it because Joni was on the cover. He ha salway held Joni in high esteem. God bless him... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:48:44 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: NJC "Bush Doctrine" and Kay Smurf observed: > Her brain obviously snatched by aliens, Lori writes: > > << We assume democracy is desired by everyone, just because it works for us. >> > > Who is *us*? > Please, whoever you are, give us our beloved Lori back! LOL, Smurf! You're right, of course. I was being, er ... hopeful, I guess, when I wrote that. We don't live in a democracy in the U.S. anyway, but a "democratic republic" that has lost much of its democratic flavor since Bush and his ilk stole the election. (And to those of you who think that didn't happen, you can quote all the laws and stories that you want, but that IS what happened. Just because the Supremes made a decision doesn't make that decision the right one.) Please remember, people: "national security" isn't the only issue on the table when election time comes around. National security won't matter one whit if there's not a decent and clean earth to live upon. Further, if we allow this administration another 4 year term we will SERIOUSLY risk losing reproductive freedom, our chances to continue or begin living as consenting adults (whatever that means to you), and god only knows what other rights we take for granted today. And, if you are eligible to vote in the United States, not voting is NOT an acceptable option (even if you're planning to vote for the incumbent). Because ... "Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan" Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:01:49 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: 9/11 posts (NJC) I missed one from 9/11/2001, this one written by Debra: http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01237.html Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:01:19 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: Welcome (NJC) Em wrote:- > ISB was sooo very "different". Then I liked some of Robin Williamson's > solo stuff too. I have the 2 albums you mentioned but also have a sort > of "greatest hits" of the ISB that I listen to. > I like alot of Brit folk and folk-rock...Pentangle just makes my heart > leap and fly, and Renbourn's solo stuff..love Bert Jansch's guitar > playing. Also Steeleye Span although their stuff is heavy handed a bit > sometimes. Remember that group "Rennaisance"? > :) > I'm stoked that you know the Incredible String Band....the Minotaur > Song to me is a jewel. I just have to chime in here as the work of both Bert and John has been so important to me, throughout my life, although, strangely, I never liked Pentangle. John Renbourn and Robin Williamson have been touring together here in the UK recently - 2 charming, laid back, and slightly bored gentlemen was the impression they gave. Bert, on the other hand, seems to have been recharged by his happy marriage and by his 60th birthday which was celebrated here by concerts, TV specials and a radio program. He's also still touring, often supported by his protigis who tend to show a little more guitar dexterity than he does these days but they still show him so much respect. So nice to come across other souls who appreciate their unique qualities. Bert and John was such a great album. I saw Martin Carthy recently, too, who is also ageing well, unlike his old partner in crime, Dave Swarbrick who is not at all well. Ah, legends all. Great to meet you, Em, Jacky - who sometimes wonders if there is a connection between ISB's Painting Box and JM's Case Of You? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:04:52 +1200 From: hell@ihug.co.nz Subject: Re: 9/11 posts (NJC) Lori wrote: > I missed one from 9/11/2001, this one written by > Debra: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01237.html And I would add this one from John Van Tiel - not a "first-hand account", but a very heart-felt message all the same, and one which expressed my own feelings better than I ever could have done. http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/msg01233.html Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:10:31 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: 9/11 posts (NJC) Excellent choice, Helen. Thank you. Lori, who was with Hell and Willy the Shake in Lower Manhattan just 8 days prior to 9/11, just after departing the last Jonifest held at Ashara's. Willy was giving me driving directions to where he wanted to be dropped off and said, "Go toward the Twin Towers." Can't do that anymore ... : ( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: DJRD again i take it Joni will *never* be produced by Daniel Lanois???? thank you Jesus! LOL totally kidding I hope someone sees the humor there.. OK I'm defintely relating best to sides 3 and 4..... not sure why sides one and 2 were painted with the brush called "acoustic guitar", but they were. She chose it that way. Em < Subject: DJRD -- favorites? Okay Em, presumably you've listened to DJRD at least once now ... what do you like? (What do you dislike?) I don't really "dislike" anything on the set, although "The Tenth World" is generally agreed to be everyone's least favorite track. My personal faves are: Jericho Off Night Backstreet Cotton Avenue Paprika Plains The Silky Veils Of Ardor Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:27:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Welcome (NJC) Jacky wrote among other things: > So nice to come across other souls who appreciate their unique > qualities. > Bert and John was such a great album. > I saw Martin Carthy recently, too, who is also ageing well, unlike > his old > partner in crime, Dave Swarbrick who is not at all well. > Ah, legends all. Hi Jacky, very nice to meet you too. Sorry to hear that Dave Swarbrick is not well. I remember him as kind of the central figure in Fairport Conv. after the Richard Thompson days. Thinking the albums "Gladys' Leap" and farther back, I think it was called "the Bonny Bunch of Roses". Love that stuff! Hope he gets better. I've never actually heard the music of Martin Carthy, though I've heard him referred to so much as an influence for so many people. Same with Davey Graham, never heard an actual piece played by him. As for Renbourn and Williamson..I have a CD of them together! a concert CD. Need to listen again. I met Pentangle once, shy one John Renbourn, this was mid 80's they did a tour here of very small venues. Jaqui McShee was just as awesome as ever. :) christ I love those crystaline female voices...they slay me. But what reminded me of that..Bert seemed quite the bored guy, lol. I think they had a new album, "Open the Door" perhaps was the name?? not sure. It has pebbles on the cover. hmm..long time ago already. Anyway, this list is so much fun..hey, where the heck can I remember al this stuff with other people who know it too? :) Em ===== "A minotaur gets very sore" ....ISB '68 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Joni's nude photo on FTR and the "kiss my ass" syndrom As someone who knows nothing about the story behind this photo - do you know what drove Joni to appear in nude on the beach photo inside FTR? I'm sure she didn't just want to show her ass to the world (or maybe she did). Could anyone tell me what was the reaction when that photo was released? The general reaction and your own, that is. And who else had the guts to do such a thing? (I can only recall Lenon and Ono doing that). Another 'ass' photo that i would love to hear your opinon about is the one on the cover of "Hits" (or is it "Misses") - where she's bending infront of the car. It always reminded me of the "Kiss my ass, i said" lyric from Lead Baloon. No doubt there's a statement in that pic. Love, Nuriel Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 23:53:55 +0100 From: "o" Subject: Re: images of a sunny sunday & Tennessee Williams/imagery in THOSL and more! Hey people, I've just managed to fix my email,which for about a year wasn't allowing me to send from Outlook. I''ve been wanting to weigh in on a lot of topics but have been unable! Sunny Sunday - could this also be a song about getting old? Joni mentions Blanche Dubois, from Tenessee Williams' "Streetcar Named Desire" who covered the lights so people couldn't see she was ageing (I'm simplifying here, but it equates to shooting the streetlight), but Joni *also* wrote about being trapped in the ageing process in 'Sweet Bird' - the title borrowed from *another* Tennessee Williams' play, "Sweet Bird of Youth". Just a thought... THOSL is an album all about trapped women I remember someone saying, and Joni is trapped in time and ageing ("Give me some time, I feel like I'm losing mine") in that song, and in Sunny Sunday the character is powerless to stop the march of time, and it drives her mad. Which leads me on to another observation - I just started to hear the use of recurring imagery in THOSL: The Boho Dance - Clothes (lace along the seams, the virtue of your syle inscribed, runs in her nylons, stricken from your uniform, glamour gowns etc) Harry's House - Fish/the sea (heatwaves, coloured currents, yellow schools of taxi fishes, jonah, fishnet windows, public swimming pool) There are others I've forgotten - any offers? Thanks for reading! Owen ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #154 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)