From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #151 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 6 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 151 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: Carving tomorrow from a Tombstone ["Lucy Hone" ] re: Les - we need you! ["Marian Russell" ] Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Orgasms from around the world, njc [Jerry Notaro ] So Snakey [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again [Nuriel Tobias ] re: Orgasms from around the world (njc) ["c Karma" ] RE: Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) ["Wally Kairuz" ] karma and the ferry njc ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again [Garret ] us politics ["ron" ] joni on uncut sampler ["ron" ] Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) ["Kay Ashley" ] sorry - forgot the N J C :-( ["ron" ] Re: Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) [Randy Remote ] Music store quotes joni ["Kate Bennett" ] Thank you, JMDL!!! [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Diana Krall and Black Crow [Chorando6@aol.com] Re: So Snakey ["amelio747" ] NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! ["amelio747" ] Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! [Chris Marshall ] Guns, Germs and Steel (NJC) ["Kay Ashley" ] Re: karma and the ferry njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) ["gene mock" Subject: re: Carving tomorrow from a Tombstone Mike mentions Paul Brady. Oh YES!!!! he is utterly brilliant. I have two of his albums and they are just amazing. A great blend of traditional material, new ideas and excellent musicianship. I have Spirits Colliding, and Oh What a World. He is one of Ireland's most prolific artists and has a voice to make the hairs on your neck stand up. The song "oh What a world" is my "stuck in a traffic jam ...God I need a lift....lets open the windows and blast some music really loud and cheer up the other sad sods" song. The chorus is just fab for making you sing along! "Oh what a world we live in but its the one we're given Stand up and face the trouble Baby I'm gonna love you And maybe you can love me to Oh Yeah, OH NO Oh what a world" Thank you Mike for turning today in to a day where I shall (Cue Jesse from the Fast Show) .....mostly be listening to Paul Brady! Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:41:42 -0700 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: re: Les - we need you! I seem to recall Les saying in a recent post that, since moving the site to a new server, there have been problems with transferring files like photos into the gallery section. I don't recall why it is now a problem (something about permissions) and don't know if it can be fixed, but I know that Les knows about it and I'm sure he would like to have it fixed. Maybe he's away and that's why he hasn't replied. Marian + + + + + + + On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 05:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Nuriel Tobias wrote: >Is there a reason why we can't add out pics into the memebrs >section? Could you please help us? >I've tried several times and keep getting this error >message:Error Occurred While Processing RequestError Diagnostic >InformationAn error occurred while evaluating the >expression:"O:\Hosted WebSites\Les.Irvin\jmdl_com\www\gallery\pix\temp\#File.ServerFile#" >Error near line 16, column 21.------------------------------------>-------------------------------------------Error resolving >parameter FILE.SERVERFILE >Before you can access any file status variables you must execute >at leastone CFFILE tag.The error occurred while processing an >element with a general identifierof (CF_IMAGESIZE), occupying >document position (16:1) to (16:100).Date/Time: 04/04/04 >18:52:48Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT >5.0)Remote Address: 4.4.249.140HTTP Referrer: >http://www.jmdl.com/gallery/mypicture.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:03:29 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) In a message dated 06/04/2004 01:19:10 GMT Daylight Time, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: << The auto tuning thing is getting so common these days. Liz Phair used it alot on her new one-she sings flat alot, too. And then there's Britney... >> Call me a Luddite, but auto-tuning is surely an invention of the Prince of Darkness. I mean, I'm not naive, I take it for granted that it's widely used - indeed I tuned into a dance station in London the other day (Kiss 100) and over a half hour period I reckon every vocal had had the treatment. And obviously there are lots of pop singers who can carry a tune about as far as far as they could carry an elephant, and need all the help they can get... But Chrissie Hynde?? Say it ain't so! I know she doesn't *always* hit the notes spot-on - indeed the Bond theme If There Was A Man is an object lesson in dodgy pitching - but I contend that she is a *great* singer, and I'll take the odd imperfection thank you very much. About the only consolation is that I believe you can still tell when a vocal has been auto-tuned, even when they're not using it in a deliberately obvious way, as on Cher's Believe. And it's not just records: I tuned in to BBC World Service last night and (bizarrely) it was a Shania Twain concert. I'd swear that I could hear that tell-tale flattening (not in the technical sense, I just can't think of a better word) of notes that indicate tweaking. Can it be used live?? Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 08:02:24 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Orgasms from around the world, njc > It seems to me that the disco era had more than one > recorded orgasm, but the only other one I can think of > at the moment is Diana Ross's "Love Hangover." I guess > it could be argued that this was really an afterglow > song, but the moans suggest at least some, um, > post-coital tremors? > All this moaning and groaning for floors full of gay men dancing! And we never knew they were faking it! Jerry :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 14:15:49 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Magdalene Movie Nuriel wrote > Has anyone here seen the movie "The Magdalene Sisters"? In case you have, what did you think about it? I thought it was lovely, but couldn't ascape the feeling that the inspiration for it and the guts to do it started with our Joni song. > Yes I saw the 2nd half on tv last week (& taped the rest). I must confess that I would never have paid any attention if Joni hadn't written the song. You may be right about the inspiration. I also think Joni in the soundtrack would have been a perfect fit for the movie. Regarding the movie itself, I saw a british documentary last year that was much grimmer in its description. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:17:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: So Snakey Don't you think it's a bit strange that Joni, unlike in any other song she wrote, uses the same words twice in a song, making it seem like, well, she didn't notice? I'm talking about the lyric "so snakey" which appears twice in "Harlem in Havana", very close to eachother in the song. ("there's a band that plays so snakey" and then "they play night-train so snakey"). It just seems weird, unless there's a poetic purpose in it - don't you think? Love, Nuriel Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again After all the "kind" words of hate that Joni has spread about the music biz, i find this case to be an official punishment of the industry towards her. I think that they simply wanted to tell her "why should we love you when you hate us so much". There's a saying in hebrew 'don't spit into the well you've been drinking from' - and Joni, i fear, has done it too often, not that i disagree with her on that, but she's simply paying the price. Michael Paz wrote:Don't stress too much about it. Consider the source. After all they are the National Enquirer of music rags. Sure there are some sources of light, but mostly it's just what it is. Then again they were the ones that were more concerned about who she was fucking than the substance of her work. Ok it pissed me off too. Paz > The new issue of Rolling Stone is "Celebrating the 50th Anniversary > of Rock" (1954? huh?) and their feature article "The Immortals" > lists the 50 "most important performers in rock & roll history". As > you can probably guess by now, Joni was not one of the 50. > To be fair to RS, they did not make the list, they selected a panel > of 55 or so musicians, industry pundits, etc to vote, and had it > tabulated by an accounting firm. > They pared down 125 candidates to 50 "immortals", and there > are plenty of obvious choices, Beatles, Hendrix, Dylan, Stones. > But how did Madonna beat out Joni? Will Jerry Lee Lewis or > The Clash or even Elton John be recognized in future generations > as coming anywhere near Joni's artistic achievement? > U2 more important than Pink Floyd (who weren't included)? > Bo Diddley more than The Grateful Dead or Crosby Stills and Nash? > Patty Smith is a great poet, but couldn't sing a note (to paraphrase > Jon Lovitz) if she had Billie Holiday stuck in her throat. > Fats Domino, The Ramones, Michael Jackson, and The Velvet > Underground have all made their contributions, but I would trade > them all for X. > As you can tell, I'm mortified and outraged! Okay, not really, I > don't care all that much. But not having Joni on that list really gets > my panties in a bunch. > RR > Read the article here > http://www.rollingstone.com/features/coverstory/featuregen.asp?pid=2846 Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 15:53:01 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: Orgasms from around the world (njc) re: "Rock 'n' roll women are loud in bed and the men just seem to grunt and rock 'n' roll men just grit their teeth and maybe grunt a little... I'm not really a rock'n'roller, but I like to think of myself as somewhere between Roger Daltry and Little Richard at certain moments. CC "As we siphon the colored language off the farms and the streets." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:55:01 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) oh so THAT is what EVERYbody is using nowadays! it seems like every other pop or club track has the flat vocal thingy going like there's no tomorrow. kyle minogue, cher, madonna, a guy whose name i can't remember, gloria stefan, EVERYbody. wally, who would use one if it weren't obvious i'm using it > > Call me a Luddite, but auto-tuning is surely an invention of the > Prince of > Darkness. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:26:17 +0100 From: Garret Subject: re: Magdalene - the movie Hi Nuriel, It is a good film, very worthwhile - it may not be the kind of film i'd want to watch repeatedly, mind you. It was a very important film in Ireland, and upsetting for many people. I think the inspiration for it is the fact that it is a very painful part of Irish history that must be dealt with. So many people as young as my mother (mid forties) are dealing with the aftermath of the abuse inflicted upon them in these places. I think it was empowering for people to see this movie, and i believe that's where the guts came from. And we should remember that Joni's song was influenced by a newspaper article. GARRET np- Joni, magdalene laundries Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Magdalene - the movie Has anyone here seen the movie "The Magdalene Sisters"? In case you have, what did you think about it? I thought it was lovely, but couldn't ascape the feeling that the inspiration for it and the guts to do it started with our Joni song. Love, Nuriel - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 13:09:50 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: karma and the ferry njc I spelled that wrong. -----> "Kharma" Supposed to be "karma." didn't realize it at the time. cause karma could be a *good thing too! >("Harm" in the word Kharma, I just noticed.) ps. We have a new 54 million dollar Ferry that will cross Lake Ontario and visit Toronto. This summer is the debut. Bree and I are going to visit Catherine sometime (hey Catherine want to go for a ride?). It is a partnership between Rochester, NY and Toronto. The only thing is the Ferry was built in Australia and it has been traveling for a few months to get to Rochester. ON April 1st, the ferry got into a crash when it docked in Manhattan, I think it was. This was no April fools Joke. The Fast Ferry is called "The Breeze." Somebody at work today called it "the Bruise." Anyway, we'll get that fixed. The Rochester/Toronto fast Ferry will take a little over 2 hours to travel between shores. Anybody want to go for a ride? C'mon upstate! LOve Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS forms and more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:04:01 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again I was going to post in relation to Joni not making the RS list. How Joni truly is one of the immortals, one of the greatest rock & roll artists (whatever rock & roll really is). How the term artist is so often misapplied in such lists (has it been redefined behind my back? Maybe my interpretation is not quite liberal enough). How pointless I find these lists yet how I always scan them for two names: Joni Mitchell and Patti Smith. How I get excited seeing these names on such lists. How Tom Waits is a notable absence from the immortals, or maybe he isnt rock & roll. Lets not ask. How these lists are usually exactly the same as the previous list. the most surprising thing is that Joni usually gets an honorary mention. I often suspect such a mention is not rooted in appreciation of her music as art, but in an emerging music business norm to state that Joni Mitchell is great because she is Joni Mitchell afterall and that half of the impresarios making such statements have never really listened to anything other than Blue, dont get it, yet have a severe case of emperors-new-clothes going on, wont listen to the rest of her catalogue, but will say what is expected  yes, Joni Mitchell is great/a genius/ massively influential etc. Similar reasoning led Joni to be dismissive of many of her mid-to-late nineties awards, I suspect, other than the ones judged by music fans. I have nothing to go on here except opinion. Im not going to write that email, however, but will step in and defend Patti Smith. I wouldnt have brought it up if Azeem had not mentioned that he thinks Patti does belong on that list:-) I strongly believe that Joni deserves mention and I strongly believe that Patti deserves mention. Let me address the point of Patti Smith not being able to sing (even if Billie Holiday was in her throat:-) I'm trading in subjectivity this email, and trying very extremely hard to avoid tautological redundancy;-) This was not a list of the greatest singers that rock & roll has to offer. It was stated that The Immortals are the greatest rock & roll artists of all time. They are also more than that. The fifty men, women and bands celebrated in the following pages (and in an exclusive photo gallery) are the singers, songwriters, record makers and performers who are continually in the music -- as pioneers, teachers and stars; touching our souls and pulling us to our feet, on a daily basis Perhaps this rules out Joni in some minds; personally, I dont think it rules her out. It certainly does not rule out Patti Smith. In fact, Patti is more vital than Joni in terms of activism in current music (it hasnt always been this way): she actively records and releases new music dealing with love, dealing with family life, dealing with politics, dealing with peace, dealing with art, dealing with death. tours every year letting old fans worldwide appreciate once again what so many of them knew in the seventies  this woman and her boys put on a kick-ass, gut-thrilling, mouth-smiling, powerful rock show which lets her new fans experience this for the first or second time, bringing her heartfelt beliefs  including her indictment of George W. and her conviction that all citizens should vote as power is found in numbers  around the world, and although I dont always agree with her straightforward political reasoning, I know she speaks with heart and feels what she says, and I can respect that. Politics in music doesnt qualify Patti for that list. making great music probably does. Now, I dont want to imply that I agree with the assertion that Patti Smith cannot sing: quite the contrary in fact. I believe that she is a great singer. Does great singer imply perfect voice? In terms of rock & roll voices, dont you think her voice is unique? She is no Judy Collins or Karen Carpenter or Ella Fitzgerald, but this does not mean she cannot sing. A critical aspect of her artistry lies in the fact that her voice suits what she does. Can you imagine Judy or Karen singing Glitter in their Eyes or E-bow the Letter or Free Money? That is Patti Smiths place. Yes, she can be nasal, she can be flat and off key Im sure. Her voice is imperfect and flawed. This is part of the appeal, for me at least. Interestingly, one of the things that initially dew me to Joni is that sometimes her voice is not perfect, it can be unpleasant (I mean that in a good way believe it or not). She is no manufactured pop princess. It was 1999 and I was impressed to think that Joni sounded like a normal, everyday, but talented Jill Doe that picked up a guitar and started creating an art  she didnt wound like shed been trained for years. She hadnt been. This gave her the freedom to explore things in her own way. She was/is free from the rules and constraints of doing things properly, if you know what I mean:-) I feel the same way about Patti. These are two singers that use their voices differently, and, yes, I admit, Joni is certainly a better singer in a technical sense. Joni and Patti occupy different niches. They fulfil different roles in rock & roll and both are brilliant in their respective roles. It all boils down to appeal. If Joni and her voice and her music appeal to you then you will want her on such a list. We commonly acknowledge Jonis greatness on here on JMDL (mind you, Ive seen similar acknowledgement of Joni over on the Patti list too), and I do not doubt it. I often wonder if they class Neil Young as the undoubted greatest on his list; Tori Amos on her list; John Lennon, Elton John, Nina Simone etc. If Patti and her voice and her music (and maybe her poetry and her visual art) appeal to you then you will want her on such a list. Joni and Patti or Patti and Joni; they appeal to me equally and I want to see them both on such a list. If youve tried and you dont like Pattis voice I wont argue with that. I cant argue with what appeals to you. I'm sure no arguement could convince me that the manic Street Preachers are fantastic. Sure, they probably are an important band. I recommend the album Dream of Life to those that believe that Patti cant sing (or to those searching for a good, strong pop-rock album). Two tracks stand out in the current context: Paths that Cross and The Jackson Song. Both of these reflect her sensitive side and may surprise some people. One is a song from a mother to her son, and the other is a song to a friend (Mapplethorpe) recently diagnosed with AIDS. This is one of very few songs that can upset me every time I hear it. I attended a poetry evening with Patti Smith in a church in central London recently and she sang this song (actually she sang both songs) I never thought I would hear that song live. I cannot describe how this made me feel! The analogy that I can draw is that this may be how people felt when they heard River live in the seventies. To get a feeling (perhaps again) of Pattis artistry, which may or may not appeal to you, listen to Horses; download the track Land or Birdland. I often cite them as the test of whether or not you can stand Patti and whether or not you can see how important she was (is). If lists such as the immortals exist, I will continue to scan them for at least two particular names: Joni Mitchell and Patti Smith, remaining firm in my conviction that both deserve to be on there. The last word, if anybody at all is still reading, goes to Michael Stipe: The first time she opened her mouth on a stage, Patti Smith became the catalyst and conduit for everything that is rock and roll. Her influence is inescapable and blessed. Rather like Jonis, one feels. GARRET Np- Patti, Elegie - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:22:53 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: us politics hi just thought this was a really great election slogan: "Vote Bush - Its a No-Brainer!!" ron np - michelle shocked - contest coming (still) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:24:07 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: joni on uncut sampler hi the latest uncut cover disc is a sampler of nonesuch artists of course, it has a track from t'log - amelia. there are also some other great tracks - emmylou, david byrne, & others - well worth a list. ron np - michelle shocked - contest coming ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 14:29:27 -0400 From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) Dear All, I am a few digests behind at this point, but was just reading volume #144 and felt the need to respond to this thread. I have some really strong feelings about the Bush Doctrine, and I feel that my experiences as a New Yorker give my views a certain weight, if you can pardon the hubris. You long timers who know me, know what my experiences were on 9/11. I will not get into it here again. Those of you who are newer probably have no idea who I am, since I am a very inconsistent poster. So in a nutshell, I will tell you that I am an avowed lefty who lives in NYC and who lost many friends on that horrible day. Here goes. The Bush Doctrine, which historians of the future will discuss in the same breath with the policies of Hitler, has been an utter failure. We are not safer because of Bush's pre-emptive strike "philosophy" (I hesitate to use the term, since it implies depth of thinking and consideration). In fact, the evidence is in front of us every day on the TV and in the newspapers that we are increasingly unsafe. By invading Iraq, we have created more hatred and resentment of our country in the Middle East, and therefore we have further solidified their reasons for churning out more terrorists. In the weeks immediately following 9/11, this country enjoyed a world-wide sympathy that has been unprecedented in our history, as the events of that day were unprecedented in our, or anyone's, history. We had a unique opportunity to create peace by taking the time to consider non-military responses; to, in essence, roll with the punches; to devise a sophisticated, truly international strategy for understanding what had happened and subsequently devise intelligent, effective responses. Instead, we responded in exactly the way that Bin Laden had hoped that we would; he sat back in amusement as we did nothing but prove his point. The military action taken in Afghanistan is justifiable within the paradigm of military logic, and it may even have been exactly the right thing to do. At least in that case, we were taking military action against the known culprit. But with invasion comes reponsibility, and herein lies one of the largest failures of the Bush Doctrine. Our government is investing chicken feed into the efforts to reconstruct Afghanistan. Instead, we are squandering our country's future at a rate of $4 billion per month in a war that never should have been fought, and whose murky and corrupt mission is far from accomplished. But the greatest failure of the Bush Doctrine is not simply that it justifies endless war. It is that it is an anachronistic tactic for an enemy that this administration simply does not understand. Conventional warfare is, quite simply, obsolete. I think of the terrorist networks as something similar to the cockroaches that scurry around this beloved city of mine. You can't really catch them. They can flatten themselves and crawl into absurdly small spaces. They disappear as soon as you've caught sight of them. We use pesticides to try to get rid of them, and even that is folly; you can never really get rid of them that way, and you're just poisoning yourself in the process. But you would certainly never employ a steamroller to kill cockroaches. However, that is exactly what our government is trying to do. And guess what? It doesn't work! Conventional warfare is a tool to be used against a kind of enemy that we don't really have anymore, the craziness with North Korea notwithstanding. North Korea's tactics are just the last dying breaths of Cold War deterrence. We all know that no one in North Korea is really going to launch a nuclear-armed ICBM at us. However, if Al Qaeda manages to overthow or assasinate Musharraf -- a very real possibility -- then the world's largest, most sophisticated terrorist network will have access to nuclear weapons, and they don't subscribe to Cold War philosophy. They won't merely threaten us with the use of nuclear weapons -- they will use them as soon as they get their hands on them, and diplomacy will never enter into it. And in the meantime, our government is making things worse by continuing to polarize the international community by fighting unnecessary wars. If we were spending $4 billion per month on the effort to hunt down Bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda cells all over the world, then we would probably already have Bin Laden in custody, and would have made significant progress in disrupting plots all over the world. We would also enjoy international support. Instead, we are spending $4 billion per month in a capitalist-imperialistic war designed to line the pockets of the Bush administration and their corporate cronies. They are thieves as surely as Kenneth Lay is, except that they are lying to and manipulating the American public into believing that there is a higher cause. They are sending people to their deaths in order to secure their financial grip on Iraq's oil fields and the lucrative reconstruction contracts. And if that isn't an impeachable crime, I surely don't know what is. To those of you on the right, or who are on the fence, I would say, "do not be fooled." We are not safer because of Bush. We are in ever more danger, especially because this is an election year. Al Qaeda essentially threw the Spanish elections by attacking Madrid when they did (and note their love of numerology: those attacks occurred on 3/11). And while I am generally in favor of a socialist party coming to power in any country, one cannot avoid the conclusion that Al Qaeda perceives this as a victory; their actions are playing a direct part in the possible breakdown the US-led Iraq coalition. No one should be surprised if they attack us again this fall. I fear that we may literally have another 9/11. This year is the third anniversary, and they do love their symbolic numbers. If we suffer another attack, please do not respond in fear and vote for Bush (or vote for Bush again). I truly believe that if Bush wins this year's election, our government will propel the international community into a Third World War. I truly believe that our only hope of averting this is to force "regime change" here at home. And take it from someone with direct experience of the horror of 9/11: as unspeakable as the events of that day were, plunging the world into endless conflict is neither a justifiable nor an effective response. The people I knew, whom I try to keep alive in my heart, would *not* have wanted more people to die in their names, especially considering the fact that the Bush Administration's invocation of their names is disingenuous and manipulative. Please remember Albert Einstein's words: "I don't know how man will fight World War III, but I do know how he will fight World War IV: with sticks and stones." Kay Ashley _____________________________________________________________ The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 11:34:28 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Orgasms from around the world, njc Neil Orts wrote: > Of course, we're only naming women, but I guess this > may prove only one thing. Rock 'n' roll women are loud > in bed and rock 'n' roll men just grit their teeth and > maybe grunt a little . . . Stop the presses: Robt Plant/Led Zeppelin "Whole Lotta Love" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:36:41 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again **The last word, if anybody at all is still reading, Read every word & loved your essay, Garrett! I wasn't going to post on the topic, because as you say RS does these same kind of lists once or twice a year and they're always pretty much the same. It equals in my mind the book Tom Brokaw wrote about his generation, which he dubbed "The Greatest Generation", that is to say that the farts who write about the music for RS have to keep revisiting their old faves because: a) It's what they know best; b) It reinforces (to them anyway) that the GOOD stuff came from their generation. Like Nuriel said, Joni doesn't play the games to belong to the RS boy's club, and I'm sure she couldn't care less about being included in any of their lists. Do I really want to read any more short essays about how great the Beatles, Elvis, Mick, Jimi, Led Zeppelin, etc. were? No. I will say to end on a happy note that I'm scanning through "Rock Lives" by Timothy White, ex-Crawdaddy & RS editor, and he includes Joni in his "Pioneer" section right up there with all the usual suspects. Then again, he had nobody to answer to as far as Jann & RS are concerned. He even put her pic on the cover! Bob NP: Red House Painters, "Funhouse" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:38:43 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Joni and Nellie WMNF-FM, the hippest station in town and plays Joni in top rotation is now playing Nellie McKay. It is the first station to play her in the area. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:47:21 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: sorry - forgot the N J C :-( sorry ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 11:42:26 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Auto-tuning njc (was that perishing list) AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > But Chrissie Hynde?? > but I contend that she is a *great* singer, and I'll take > the odd imperfection thank you very much. Me too, me too, just saying she has had to struggle a bit at times. > About the only consolation is that I believe you can still tell when a vocal > has been auto-tuned, even when they're not using it in a deliberately obvious > way, as on Cher's Believe. Yes, once you get an ear for the sound of it, you start hearing it more and more. > And it's not just records: I tuned in to BBC World > Service last night and (bizarrely) it was a Shania Twain concert. I'd swear > that I could hear that tell-tale flattening (not in the technical sense, I > just can't think of a better word) of notes that indicate tweaking. Can it be > used live?? I haven't used one, but I believe it is a real-time process. I don't know why Shania would need one, heaven forbid she's doing it because it sounds so "now". Oh well...if you listen to "Like a Virgin" and some of Madonna's other hits, you can hear a ghost singer behind her. Always ahead of her time, that girl. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 11:45:39 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: R Stone blows it with Joni again Garret wrote: > If lists such as the immortals exist, I will continue to scan them for at > least two particular names: Joni Mitchell and Patti Smith, remaining firm in my > conviction that both deserve to be on there. You make a convincing case, and I admit to loving her "People Got The Power". Another person not on the list who should be is Frank Zappa. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 14:42:38 -0400 From: "Suzanne MarcAurele" Subject: Spring Greetins Have not been in the loop here in some time. Thought I would forward a hello to all who know of me. Quite a spider web the posts create. A footprint of the more massive confusion that the world is exteriorizing these days. When an age loses its capacity to act from reflection and contemplation the world gets violence and chaos in the name of God. Of course, as is the want of the wanting, the rich are to blame for the idle, violent meanderings of the "third " world, the third being poor, the second being the middle class, and the top the rich. As one of the second, it grieves me that the ignorance of the third is so great that it offers little hope of gentle guiding, as seems to always be the case. As we armchair our opinions, our supermarkets are still open, we still drive our lotus mobiles, we wash and dry our clothes in machines, and we inspire our shallow lunacy with media of all sorts, and justify our character at a keyboard but miss the call in our daily lives to reflect and stand first for hope and last for lunacy. Whatever I may believe within my solitary heart, it is irrelevanted daily by the rationales of others yet I am not moved to violence nor shall I fill my private moments with plans to politic anyone to my side. A simple truth, if all including ones ethics is about a fashion of a mob, I hold no interest in pursuit of that. Other than these depths I am fine and still open to a lover - Have a great day! S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:22:12 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Music store quotes joni This description is listed at: http://www.ezfolk.com/links/musicstores--newyork.html "Mandolin Brothers... 'One of the best guitars shops in the world' said The Boston Globe. Joni Mitchell sang 'I went to Staten Island, Sharon, to buy myself a mandolin...... http://www.mandolinbrothers.com " So did she go to buy a mandolin or a Mandolin? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:44:01 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Thank you, JMDL!!! I realize I don't give enough thanks here, and I am especially feeling grateful for all the music I never would have heard had it not been for this list, either by gifts of music, knowing the musicians from the JMDL, or most especially, by hearing about them from this list. A (very!) partial list of music I now LOVE and never would have heard: Stryngs! Eastmountainsouth Kate Bennett Jeff Bisch Groovelily Mindy Smith David Lahm ALL the Joni covers!! (Thank you, Bob, for putting such a lot of work into this! OK, I don't *love* every single song, but I enjoy listening to each one of them when they come in, and can never thank you enough!) Beth Neilson Chapman Brian Blade Damien Rice Cheb Mami the many other JMDLers that have CD's- I think I've bought them all!! Many, many thanks for enriching my life with such great music! Keep those suggestions coming!! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:46:41 EDT From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Re: Diana Krall and Black Crow Hi all, just listened to radio four, review of new Diana Krall CD. Generally favourable. with regards to her cover of black crow the reviewer said " she out joni'ed joni". They played a snippet and yes its damn good. As for Out joni'ing Joni, i'm on the fence, you decide for yourselves. lots of love xxx Clive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 21:54:28 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: So Snakey Yeah Nuriel interesting...my guess is she just thought it sounded good. Though Joni has done some clever and hidden poetic things in the past, I just don't think she did it on TTT! I liked TTT at one time but in retrospect there is a lot of recycling going on there! Saying this I do like "Stay In Touch" which I thought nothing of at first. It's a really honest song...I wish she'd write some more! NP: Raised On Robbery * * * * * * Stephen T "and I thought I wouldn't have to be " - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 4:17 PM Subject: So Snakey > Don't you think it's a bit strange that Joni, unlike in any other song she wrote, uses the same words twice in a song, making it seem like, well, she didn't notice? I'm talking about the lyric "so snakey" which appears twice in "Harlem in Havana", very close to eachother in the song. ("there's a band that plays so snakey" and then "they play night-train so snakey"). It just seems weird, unless there's a poetic purpose in it - don't you think? > > Love, > > Nuriel > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:28:03 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! Sounds like this one's gonna' be amazing! I also heard there will be a DVD of all her vids later in the year! Forwarded from thedent... 'Welcome To Sunny Florida' DVD/CD Updated April 5, 2004 A new Tori Amos DVD/CD project called Welcome To Sunny Florida will be released by Epic Records on May 18, 2004 in North America. The likely release date in the U.K., France, and many other European countries is May 17, 2004. (The earlier release dates of May3/4, 2004 are no longer valid.) This page will gather the most relevant news items about this release. The DVD will include live footage (18 songs) from the final show of Tori's Lottapianos tour, which took place on September 4, 2003 at the Sound Advice Theatre in West Palm Beach, FL. (You can read reviews for that show and see the complete set list here.) Not all the songs performed that night made it to the DVD. The following songs performed that evening in West Palm Beach did not make the cut for reasons we do not know: Wednesday Virginia Sweet Sangria Past The Mission The companion 6-track CD is called Scarlet's Hidden Treasures and will include some of the Scarlet's Walk b-sides as well as some previously unreleased songs. Here are some of the hightlights of this release as we currently know it: a.. Welcome to Sunny Florida is Tori's first concert DVD ever released commercially b.. Contains over two hours of concert footage c.. Scarlet's Hidden Treasures is the name of the companion CD which includes previously unreleased songs, one of which will be promoted to radio d.. DVD Special Bonus Features include: a.. Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound b.. PCM Stereo c.. Full Length Interviews with behind the scenes footage d.. Tour Yearbook of photos e.. Lyrics For Scarlet's Hidden Treasures tracks e.. Extensive press & TV to support release f.. Loren Haynes was involved with the DVD in some way Here is the track listing/contents of both the DVD and the CD: DVD Selections a sorta fairytale Sugar Crucify Interlude #1 Cornflake Girl Bells for Her Concertina Take To The Sky Leather Cloud On My Tongue Interlude #2 Cooling your cloud Father Lucifer Professional Widow Interlude #3 I can't see New York Precious Things Encore: Tombigbee Amber Waves Hey Jupiter Credits CD Selections (Scarlet's Hidden Treasures) Ruby through the Looking-Glass Seaside Bug a Martini Apollo's Frock Tombigbee Indian Summer * * * * * * Stephen T [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of dottran.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:41:13 +0100 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: NJC Tori Amos NEW DVD!! On 6 Apr 2004, at 22:28, amelio747 wrote: > d.. DVD Special Bonus Features include: > a.. Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound If this is as well-recorded as the DVD tracks that came with Tales Of A Librarian, this will be one stunning live DVD. Crossing fingers, - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:03:07 -0400 From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: Guns, Germs and Steel (NJC) Hello All (again!) Lucy's wonderful post and the subsequent discussion has me thinking that many of you may enjoy reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. It is an amazing, interdisciplinary work that explores the fundamental causes (not culturally described ones) of how the world's power structure has ended up the way it has. He is a biologist who uses geologic, geographic, ecologic, anthropologic, archaeologic (basically, everything except misanthropic) lines of evidence to explain how we ended up in this western-dominated world that we live in. It is utterly fascinating, and I believe succeeds in completely debunking all racist explanations for the dominance of western culture. Lucy, if you have not read this book, you of all people must! You'll love it. Peace, Kay _____________________________________________________________ The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:04:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: karma and the ferry njc --- Marianne Rizzo wrote: > > ps. We have a new 54 million dollar Ferry that will > cross Lake Ontario and > visit Toronto. This summer is the debut. > > Bree and I are going to visit Catherine sometime > (hey Catherine want to go > for a ride?). You betcha, honey! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:31:07 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) hello kay, thanks. that was a nicely written and i couldn't agree with you more. let's hope for the best. take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Ashley" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 11:29 AM Subject: Bush doctrine (was What Is Reality?) (NJC) > Dear All, > > I am a few digests behind at this point, but was just reading volume #144 > and felt the need to respond to this thread. > > I have some really strong feelings about the Bush Doctrine, and I feel that > my experiences as a New Yorker give my views a certain weight, if you can > pardon the hubris. You long timers who know me, know what my experiences > were on 9/11. I will not get into it here again. Those of you who are > newer probably have no idea who I am, since I am a very inconsistent > poster. So in a nutshell, I will tell you that I am an avowed lefty who > lives in NYC and who lost many friends on that horrible day. Here goes. > > The Bush Doctrine, which historians of the future will discuss in the same > breath with the policies of Hitler, has been an utter failure. We are not > safer because of Bush's pre-emptive strike "philosophy" (I hesitate to use > the term, since it implies depth of thinking and consideration). In fact, > the evidence is in front of us every day on the TV and in the newspapers > that we are increasingly unsafe. By invading Iraq, we have created more > hatred and resentment of our country in the Middle East, and therefore we > have further solidified their reasons for churning out more terrorists. In > the weeks immediately following 9/11, this country enjoyed a world-wide > sympathy that has been unprecedented in our history, as the events of that > day were unprecedented in our, or anyone's, history. We had a unique > opportunity to create peace by taking the time to consider non-military > responses; to, in essence, roll with the punches; to devise a > sophisticated, truly international strategy for understanding what had > happened and subsequently devise intelligent, effective responses. > Instead, we responded in exactly the way that Bin Laden had hoped that we > would; he sat back in amusement as we did nothing but prove his point. > > The military action taken in Afghanistan is justifiable within the paradigm > of military logic, and it may even have been exactly the right thing to do. > At least in that case, we were taking military action against the known > culprit. But with invasion comes reponsibility, and herein lies one of the > largest failures of the Bush Doctrine. Our government is investing chicken > feed into the efforts to reconstruct Afghanistan. Instead, we are > squandering our country's future at a rate of $4 billion per month in a war > that never should have been fought, and whose murky and corrupt mission is > far from accomplished. > > But the greatest failure of the Bush Doctrine is not simply that it > justifies endless war. It is that it is an anachronistic tactic for an > enemy that this administration simply does not understand. Conventional > warfare is, quite simply, obsolete. I think of the terrorist networks as > something similar to the cockroaches that scurry around this beloved city > of mine. You can't really catch them. They can flatten themselves and > crawl into absurdly small spaces. They disappear as soon as you've caught > sight of them. We use pesticides to try to get rid of them, and even that > is folly; you can never really get rid of them that way, and you're just > poisoning yourself in the process. But you would certainly never employ a > steamroller to kill cockroaches. However, that is exactly what our > government is trying to do. And guess what? It doesn't work! > Conventional warfare is a tool to be used against a kind of enemy that we > don't really have anymore, the craziness with North Korea notwithstanding. > North Korea's tactics are just the last dying breaths of Cold War > deterrence. We all know that no one in North Korea is really going to > launch a nuclear-armed ICBM at us. However, if Al Qaeda manages to > overthow or assasinate Musharraf -- a very real possibility -- then the > world's largest, most sophisticated terrorist network will have access to > nuclear weapons, and they don't subscribe to Cold War philosophy. They > won't merely threaten us with the use of nuclear weapons -- they will use > them as soon as they get their hands on them, and diplomacy will never > enter into it. And in the meantime, our government is making things worse > by continuing to polarize the international community by fighting > unnecessary wars. If we were spending $4 billion per month on the effort > to hunt down Bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda cells all over the world, then > we would probably already have Bin Laden in custody, and would have made > significant progress in disrupting plots all over the world. We would also > enjoy international support. Instead, we are spending $4 billion per month > in a capitalist-imperialistic war designed to line the pockets of the Bush > administration and their corporate cronies. They are thieves as surely as > Kenneth Lay is, except that they are lying to and manipulating the American > public into believing that there is a higher cause. They are sending > people to their deaths in order to secure their financial grip on Iraq's > oil fields and the lucrative reconstruction contracts. And if that isn't > an impeachable crime, I surely don't know what is. > > To those of you on the right, or who are on the fence, I would say, "do not > be fooled." We are not safer because of Bush. We are in ever more danger, > especially because this is an election year. Al Qaeda essentially threw > the Spanish elections by attacking Madrid when they did (and note their > love of numerology: those attacks occurred on 3/11). And while I am > generally in favor of a socialist party coming to power in any country, one > cannot avoid the conclusion that Al Qaeda perceives this as a victory; > their actions are playing a direct part in the possible breakdown the > US-led Iraq coalition. No one should be surprised if they attack us again > this fall. I fear that we may literally have another 9/11. This year is > the third anniversary, and they do love their symbolic numbers. If we > suffer another attack, please do not respond in fear and vote for Bush (or > vote for Bush again). I truly believe that if Bush wins this year's > election, our government will propel the international community into a > Third World War. I truly believe that our only hope of averting this is to > force "regime change" here at home. And take it from someone with direct > experience of the horror of 9/11: as unspeakable as the events of that day > were, plunging the world into endless conflict is neither a justifiable nor > an effective response. The people I knew, whom I try to keep alive in my > heart, would *not* have wanted more people to die in their names, > especially considering the fact that the Bush Administration's invocation > of their names is disingenuous and manipulative. > > Please remember Albert Einstein's words: "I don't know how man will fight > World War III, but I do know how he will fight World War IV: with sticks > and stones." > > Kay Ashley > > _____________________________________________________________ > > The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and > may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy > this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender > immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any > purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #151 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)