From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #118 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, March 20 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 118 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc ["Kakki" ] Re: The Spectrum, Philadelphia, 1976 and Christians. NJC ["Raffaele Malan] Re: Bush's "faith" NJC PC ["Kakki" ] Re: Bush's "faith" NJC ["mike pritchard" ] belief njc [colin ] belief 2 njc [colin ] concert in Vienna of JM music ["Marian Russell" ] NJC Thanks all!! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: movie diversity, NJC ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc ["Lucy Hone" ] holiness, njc ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Bush's "faith" NJC [was Mel Gibson's movie] [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Bush's "faith" NJC [was Mel Gibson's movie] [Lori Fye ] Re: george harrison NJC [Randy Remote ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc [Lori Fye ] george harrison NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] What is reality? NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: (NJC) Freedom from Religion [colin ] Re: What is reality? NJC [colin ] RE: What is reality? NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: What is reality? NJC [Lori Fye ] Re: What is reality? NJC [colin ] Re: What is reality? NJC [Lori Fye ] RE: What is reality? NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: Bush's "faith" NJC PC [Lori Fye ] Re: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC [vince ] Re: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC [vince ] RE: Bush's "faith" NJC PC ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:14:29 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Lucy wrote: > NO one will ever convince me about BUSH (sorry Kakki) but then closer to home > (though hardly relevant since Bush is pulling the strings of our foreign > policy in Iraq) our own Prime Minister is a pathetic man who cannot lead our > country anywhere even if he had us on leads!! I don't think I've ever tried to convince you about Bush. Just had discussions here about him. As far as your opposition to having your country involved with the U.S. actions on terrorism, I feel every country should have the right to make their own policy, and if the majority in your country oppose the way things are going, then by all means, your country should opt out. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:30:05 +0000 From: "Raffaele Malanga" Subject: Re: The Spectrum, Philadelphia, 1976 and Christians. NJC >From: Catherine McKay >To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu, r_malanga@hotmail.com, > joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: The Spectrum, Philadelphia, 1976 and Christians. NJC >Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:58:49 -0500 (EST) > > >I do think "churches" are the biggest obstacle to >faith, so you won't get any argument from me - the >trouble with 'em is... there's PEOPLE there! I totally agree with your point Catherine. Being an Italian and raised in a super-Catholic environment I can definetely say that religious institutions have been a major obstacle to my faith! Bob, all the best for your son. With a dad like you he'll want to get better soon. Raf _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:45:42 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Bush's "faith" NJC PC Debra wrote: > Yeah, I know. That's what you usually say when you're not willing to > consider what someone's said. For this discussion, okay, I'll imagine > that your comment was limited to the Crusades or something equally > horrific and so far in the past we can label it all now. I was > considering behavior that is more current and subtle. So let's just call > it a disconnect in the conversation and move on... I can try to consider what someone says, but sometimes the use of subtlety - rather than clearly stating a point or question - leaves me sensing that I am being set up and dragged off into some battle I have not asked to join. For example, what if you were having a discussion with someone else and that person said that Christians were hypocrites because some of them are known to cheat on their spouses. Then you answered that people who are faithful Christians do not sanction adultery. Then I popped into the discussion and said well then how can you justify your support of Bill Clinton? It's going from point A to B to Z and sometimes I just don't have the energy for it. > I agree with you about keeping in mind the agenda of the Guardian and > the preacher, which is why I mentioned the book written by someone > sympathetic to Bush, and yet you dismiss that right away also. Not a > surprise, though. I can't recall a time when you've ever said anything > critical of Bush or considered any information that might show him in a > less than perfect light. I don't dismiss it. I read it. I've just seen lots of public/in the media Christians for years picking out those kind of stories to talk, or preach or write about. It doesn't strike me as anything out of the ordinary in the big scheme of things. Actually the reporting in the Haaretz article is potentially more concerning. If Bush really is talking that way, I can understand how people could be taken aback by it. > Since you so often repeat the administration's slogans, you're right, > that doesn't make any difference to me. I can just listen to Bush and > his official Bushies to get that info. Geez, I don't feel I parrot the adminstration's slogans. I come to those slogans, er, point of view, based on my own knowledge of history, my life experience, watching events as they happen, reading a variety of sources and hopefully, from using my own cognitive thinking. Maybe a lot of people come to the same conclusions, just as the people who oppose Bush all seem to be on pretty much the same page with their conclusions. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:26:34 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Bush's "faith" NJC Just trying to pull a few threads together here. Bear with me... 1. Kakki said >>Until you show me an actual transcript from Bush saying these things, I will be skeptical. Something reported from the Guardian (who has an agenda) quoting a fundamentalist preacher (who has an agenda) does not constitute proof to me.<< We ALL have agendas, although some of us (me too, of course) are less reluctant to admit this fact. Being sceptical is a positive quality. Don't lose it. 2. Muller said >>The Methodist Church that I've been attending for over 20 years has turned into a seething mess of behind-the-scenes politics, fund-raising, hypocritical behavior and private agenda.<< The Methodists too have their agendas. Why wouldn't they? 3. Kakki >>Well, we all have our own experiences with Christians. I've met very few who want to convert the world and everyone around them to their religion.<< That's great, and obviously you're talking of there and now. However, the historical context is that millions of people in Latin- and Central-America speak Spanish (and Portuguese) and follow the Catholic faith because Christians DID convert the world of the indigenous populations and everyone around them with THEIR religion. Not to talk of the British (and French) Empire... >>Most are just good, decent people who have compassion towards others.<< Yes, of course they are, as indeed are most people from all other religions. 4. Randy >>I said that "millions upon millions have been butchered in the name of religion". That's not an accusation, it is historical fact.<< Personally I would say 'religions' but that's probably splitting hairs... 5. Debra mentioned the Crusades, and I think it is not going too far to understand that from a particular point of view the al-Qaida movement is a parallel to the Christian Crusades, at least in its stated aims. Their methods of achieving this I won't go into. Kate said >>But blind allegiance to any leader is a very very scary thing to me... << I agree, regardless of whether it is to political or religious leaders. mike in barcelona, fearing the Muslim backlash after M-11 in Madrid... NP RLJ - the evening of my best day ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:50:30 +0000 From: colin Subject: belief njc Over the years I have been involved with a number of belief systems. I found all of them wanting and eventually came to the understanding that I must live according to my own thoughts and conscience. religion holds nothing for me. I think many people cannot live without certainty and thus we have fundamentalists of all persuasions, icluding fundy athiests. It seems strange to me that because I aschew religion, people automatically assume, wrongly, that i am athiest. far from it. There were all sorts of beliefs I held that i no longer do. One thing we in the west tend to be taught is that bad things do not happen to good people. If you live well you will be safe. not true. I used to believe many things were 'God's will', like the death of a child from cancer, death of hundreds from some disater, losing or gaining a job and a host of other examples. i now think that is a load of bollocks. I relaise I was only told this because there was not a satisfactory answer. I don't think things are emant to be. I fthings are 'meant to be' and is the way God wants, then we have to accept the child raped and murdered suffered for God's will and , more to the point, that the perp was just carrying out some Divine plan. Obvious nonsense. 'Karma' morew or less is the same-our lives are the direct result of good/bad in previous lives which still leads us to havinhg th think that evil, like the Madrid bombings, is all part of a Divine plane. Bollocks. The furhter in my quest I have gone, the more I have come to accpet that there are no answers, at least none that will explain death and suffering of both innocents and not so. Do i know waht God is? No. Do i know what God wants? no. Do i know why we are here? no. Oh I know people believe they do. But it is only their idea and an idea they hold because it mskes them feel better. None of us know Truth and never will, at least while we are in the physical world. There are a couple of reasons I have not given up entirely and decided upon atheism. One is that i cannot accpet this world is just an accident, that we , it, evolved by accident. Random happenings tend to result in chaos. The is nothing random or chaotic about life. I have seen many births of animals, I understand waht is invloved. it could not have happened by chance. The way our bodies work, the sheer complexity of it, could not have happened by chance. Random-equals chaos not order. Perhaps with just that thought, atheism would still be the way. But then there is this other thing which I cannot dismiss. As a child i was 'aware' of stuff i should not have been. i knew when i wa sbeing lied to. I knew stuff before it happened. And worse i saw and spoke with people that were dead. Don't laugh. i really did see dead people! Only I didn;t have Brucy helping me. Far from it, I had a heavy xtian background and this quirkiness of mine was just another reason to absue me and condemn me as a demon. I got punished for saying i was talking to Aunty last night. More so when the letter arrived to say she had died the night I spoke with her. I could have told them she had died. As I got older, I 'lost' this ability, because of the abuse, but never lost my 'intution'. However, as I was diagnosed bi polar at 15 and had spells in hospital, I son leanred it was NOIT a good idea to tell anyone I saw things or heard voices. So it was all forgotten about. Until my 20's when it came to the fore again. this time, I learned about it, came to see it as the gift it is, and learned how to use it for the benefit of others. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:12:54 +0000 From: colin Subject: belief 2 njc I hate long emails so ..... Anyway, the experinces I ahve on a regular basis( and all my life) don't alolow me to be athiest. i have no option. I do realise that I have interpreted my experiences the way i have. To mean that we all survive death and that physical life is not all there is. I cannot see another way of explaining it away. i have tried. I have experiences that are supposed to be not possible. i have seen into the future. I have seen into the past. I feel and hear and see people who are no longer in the physical world. What felt nutty and weird is just part of who i am, part of my life. In the 7 years on this list, I have never been upfront about this. Fear kept me from being so. Oh, a couple of people know and indeed have had a demonstration of my gift but they wwre sworn to keep it secret. After all, I feared, they already know i am bi polar, have had problems, if they know this, they will think'what a nut'. And I am sure many will think just that. The difference is I no longer care. Despite my own personal diffiuclties, I am able to use this ability. i have stood in front of 200 people, for 2 hours, and talked and demonstrated. How can someone who was so shy and scared and stuttered do this? I don't know. However, my own healing to where I am today, has come about becasue of this gift, because of my use of it and because of being open to this Higher Power. i had huge fear around this most especially becasue of my xtian background. reading Corinthians, about the gifts of the Spirit, aleviated that to some extend but seeing the fruits of it more than outs that fear to rest. However, i do not believe this ability gets me any closer to Truth, to God. When i go and speak I do not ever tell people that what i am saying is anything more than my thoughts and what i believe today. I leave it to them to think for themselves. i demonstate and what they make of that is up to them. I do not know what it is like to not be this way. I know my sensisitvity is a pain in the bum, I can well do without what i feel is an over developed sense of empathy. I often wish i could not feel as i do, that the suffering of others didn't touch me. But tough, that is the way it is. I do not believe it makes me different or more desrving or anything stupid like that. I have often whined 'why me'? Why would I of all people, someone who has been such a mess and far less than holy or perfect, have this abilty? i don't know. I have prayed and begged and pleaded for it to go away. I have ignored it. i have denied it. I have refused to use it. All to no avail.Besides, i seem to be a magnet for others to tell their troubles to and how can one trun their back on that? The last thing I would ahve expected was to be writing this to the list, ever, let alone this morning. Oh when i do my thing, there is no weird set up, no props no nothing, jujts a coffee and a fag and talking. If you couldn't hear, you'd think nothing more than a converstaion is going on. And really that is all it is. As well as not caring for religion, I also care little for New age stuff, astrology, I ching, runes, tarot or any of that. Not for me. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:27:08 -0800 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: concert in Vienna of JM music My friend Reinhard Ziegerhofer, bass player of Broadlahn fame, will be performing with other musicians the music of Joni Mitchell next week on Thursday. Here is the announcement in German. English translation to follow: + + + + + + + The songs of Joni Mitchell Joni Mitchell ist eine Songwriterin, Sdngerin, Musikerin, Dichterin und Malerin. Ihr musikalisches Werk von 23 Alben in 40 Jahren ist eine der bemerkenswertesten und kontinuierlichsten Arbeiten unter vergleichbaren K|nstlern ihres Genres ihrer Generation. Ihre ganz eigene Interpretation verschiedener Stile kreiert ein verbl|ffendes, oft nicht einzuordnendes musikalisches Neuland, das Musikliebhaber in ihren Bann zieht und Musiktheoretiker vor offene Fragen stellt. Ihr Gitarrespiel und ihre Art zu singen sind einzigartig und unverwechselbar und sie verstand es immer, Musiker der Weltoberliga des Jazz, des Folk oder der Rockmusik um sich zu scharen. Vesna Petkovic voc. Martin Wvss keyb. Thomas Mauerhofer guit. Reinhard Ziegerhofer b Ismael Barrios perc. Aaron Ofner dr We love music and we love her music. Dieses Konzert ist eine tiefe Verneigung von uns vor der Poesie in der Musik und in den Texten Joni Mitchells. Donnerstag, 25. Mdrz 2004, um 20 Uhr KULISSE Rosensteingasse 39, A-1170 Wien Tel: 01/481 63 07 Fax:01/485 44 02 + + + + + + + The songs of Joni Mitchell Joni Mitchell is a songwriter, singer, musician, poet and painter. Her musical work from 23 albums in 40 years is one of the most remarkable (and having the most continuity?) among comparable artists in her genre in her generation. Her entirely unique interpretation of different [musical] styles creates an amazing and often uncategorizable musical new territory that has captivated music lovers and puzzled music theorists. Her guitar playing and singing style are unique and unmistakable and she was clever enough (always knew how) to surround herself with musicians from the highest ranks of jazz, folk and rock. Vesna Petkovic voc. Martin Wvss keyb. Thomas Mauerhofer guit. Reinhard Ziegerhofer b Ismael Barrios perc. Aaron Ofner dr We love music and we love her music. This concert is a deep bow from us to the poetry in the music and in the writings of Joni Mitchell. Thursday, 25th March 2004, 20:00 (8 p.m.) KULISSE Rosensteingasse 39, A-1170 Wien Tel: 01/481 63 07 Fax:01/485 44 02 + + + + + + + ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:46:09 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Thanks all!! Since I was out half the day yesterday I am backed up here at work (yes I do have a job!) so I don't have the time to thank each of you individually who have given me such support and good thoughts and yes, even prayers! ;~) It means more to me than you can know. Nate had a great night's sleep, and woke up this morning with no pain which is pretty amazing considering he was hurting pretty badly yesterday. To God be the glory, great thing he has done (so goes the song) and also to you guys - I wasn't being patronizing when I said you were my BEST friends, y'all are in my blood like you-know-what. Bob NP: Beth Orton, "So Much More" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:30:13 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: movie diversity, NJC Dear Joni-Bob, So sorry to hear your son's been ill, I will keep him in my prayers. db >>> 3/18/2004 3:47:54 PM >>> Too bad Jesus and the Holy Romans didn't break out in a Joni song - maybe then we'd have the recording! :~) Then again, he probably would've sung Elton's "Take me to the Pilate"...(insert groan). Bob, just trying to lighten up the party a bit NP: Beth Orton, "Galaxy Of Emptiness" This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:47:32 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Kakki write in reply to my mail.... > I don't think I've ever tried to convince you about Bush. Just had > discussions here about him. As far as your opposition to having your > country involved with the U.S. actions on terrorism, I feel every country > should have the right to make their own policy, and if the majority in your > country oppose the way things are going, then by all means, your country > should opt out. Sorry Kakki it was meant as a sort of warm aside. Almost an apology, as you are someone who always is so passionate about your topic and most persuasive in your argument. You had written....... "As for the rest of it all, it's always been apparent how much some people here hate and fear Bush. It blows my mind sometimes, and I wonder at it, but I've come to realize finally that there's not anything I can say that will make a difference on that end."...... That was what I was apologising for..... You have worked hard to sell him, but like you say it will make no difference.... On a gut feel basis..... Bush is someone who makes my skin crawl, everything about him makes me feel uncomfortable. I get the same feeling about our Prime Minister... There is something very untrustworthy about them both and I have thought this for years.....so please do not take this as anti American. I have liked the Americans I have met, I love visitng your country and have been several times....and it is not a personal attack on you. Anyway I did not mean to put your back up or make you feel you had to defend the fact that you like and revere him as your president.. That is very patriotic of you and you are to be admired for that. Personally, I do not find those in power to be worthy of anything other than close scrutiny. Are they really operating in our name? What have we empowered them to do? HAve they really won the elections.. I seem to remember something dodgy about Bush's votes and the way he came to power.. I do not think we should have PARTY politics. There should be a voted agenda, agreed management of the country by people who are impartial to left or right wing sentiments. I hate the sheer waste of time in our parliament on trying to score so called "witty" points at the despatch box.. it is a load of bollocks. "Get on with the job.. discuss the work in had... stop messing about and do something" is what I find myself yelling at the radio when they broadcast the days procedings....All the crap and the hoo haa with "would the right honorouble member for (insert place name here) consider that ........ "and then they waffle on for ages about nothing in particular.. We pay these people thousands and thousands of pounds to be as erudite as Bill and BEn the Flower pot men and it drives me mad.... We do not have a say in whether we went to war or not, neither did you Americans. The PNAC dream is being set in place, the contracts are going to the fat cats and so on.(and some British Fat cats too).. Regardless of what any of us feel,I think we are on a treadmill governed by other powers. There are thousands of us, hundreds of thousands of us in Britain, and across Europe who did say we did not want the war to go ahead in our name...The rallys were huge and well publicised..... Had it gone to a vote, had we any power (at all) at any time anyway, the war might have been approved by the narrowest of margins... or not. but then this is not a just war, it is about oil.. and greed and all those things that money can buy....Enough damage has been done already, to feed the gas guzzling, fuel inefficient society and the corporocracy that rules this planet.... I want our leaders to lead the world to peace... but it will never happen. This sunday it is Mothering Sunday in the UK... I shall be thinking about the mothers whose children have been hurt in conflicts all around the world... and hope they find some small joy in their day....I shall be having lunch with Frank's mum and Dad. I shall also remember my mother as she is not with us anymore and, since she is scattered over various bits of the west and south of England, will raise a glass to her memory. All the best to all of you... Lucy..who has spent a total of 4 hours in traffic jams today.... and is not going anywhere until tomorrow!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:46:52 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: holiness, njc All this talk about holiness now! ;) Seriously though, Bob, prayers are comin' at your son, and at you for being such a loving Dad (and for your spiritual crisis, which I can really identify with right now), and at Emiliano's grieving country, and at Colin's chronic pain and loss of puppies, and for everyone on the jmdl, and, while I'm on a prayerful roll here, for John Kerry to win in November and reverse the damage George W. Bush has done to our country and to our world. Peace, Patti _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar  FREE! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:19:37 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Bush's "faith" NJC [was Mel Gibson's movie] This is a good & valid point, Kakki. I suppose it's still early in the campaign, but I couldn't tell you any of Kerry's plans, other than rolling back the Bush tax cuts. I've been intending to go to his official website and read through his platforms and plans, but so far he has done a poor job of putting much of that on the table. All he's done is to talk about how corrupt and crooked the current administration is, which is something I already know. I fear that the mud-slinging is going to be early & heavy, and NOBODY wins once that starts. Hopefully he'll begin a better job with getting his ideas and cabinet selections on the table. For all his faults, Clinton did a good job of detailing how he planned to attack the various problems we face, even if he wasn't able to pull them all off. Bob NP: Joan Osborne, "Crazy Baby" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:03:58 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Bush's "faith" NJC [was Mel Gibson's movie] Kakki wrote: > In general, I wonder (maybe a better word is bafflement) how people can look > at the same events and come to such extremely different conclusions ALL the > time. Can you give me some examples of events? I'm not trying to provoke an argument; I'm trying to understand what you mean. > I don't have blind allegiance to Bush, I certainly don't see him as all > wonderful and everything's coming up daisies, but I sure don't see anyone > else out there who seems to have any kind of a realistic plan for the > problems we face. Are you saying that you believe that Bush's plans are realistic? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:11:47 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: (NJC) Freedom from Religion I guess all I really want is freedom from religion, especially in politics but also in daily life. I believe, as an American living in the United States, I should be entitled to that. Unfortunately, countless people -- from the President to the homeless "preacher" on the street -- are trying to cram their beliefs down my throat and into my brain. Frankly, I'm sick of it and if I could find a "godless" country I would move to it. (Suggestions are welcome.) Here's an interesting article I just found on the Freedom from Religion Foundation's website. I don't mean to cause a riot here, but it's very thought-provoking. http://ffrf.org/nontracts/?t=jesus.txt Peace, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:06 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: george harrison NJC I have the dvd, and I 100% recommend it. Besides the great rock music, Anoushka Shankar and Ravi's orchestral tribute to George were very moving. But I wondered, where the heck was Dylan? Also, George was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (as a solo artist this time) the other night. The show will be broadcast on VH-1 this Sunday. RR gene mock wrote: > did any listers catch the george harrison tribute concert on pbs? > well, for those who did, i hope you enjoyed it as much as i. just the clapton > solos was worth staying up late. throw in paul mc cartney, ringo starr, jim > capaldi, tom petty and the heartbreakers, jeff lyne, billy preston, ravi > sanker, and others ---wow!!! all the songs that were played were written by > george. so there was a mini reunion of the BEATLES!! and The Travelling > Willberrys. it was a real treat. > And for those of you who missed it, check put great performances on pbs for > re-broadcasts. it's worth it. i'm buying the dvd. > take care gene ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:39:55 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Lucy wrote: > I seem to remember something dodgy about Bush's votes and the way he came to > power.. LOL, Lucy!!!! Sorry, I had to chuckle at that one. Lori, who says "Re-Defeat Bush in 2004" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:54:25 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: george harrison NJC Gene>did any listers catch the george harrison tribute concert on pbs?< Yes I loved it! I miss him... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:21:40 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: What is reality? NJC Kakki "a realistic plan for the problems we face" Wearing my philosopher's hat, I think that is the core of why people disagree... So much of reality is actually very subjective... And we tend to tune out whatever does not fit with our view... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:21:37 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: (NJC) Freedom from Religion Lori Fye wrote: >http://ffrf.org/nontracts/?t=jesus.txt > >Peace, >Lori > > > http://tinyurl.com/2zanp this one from the same site is also interesting. I had not thought that extent about all the commandmetns but had given great deal of thought to the 'honor thy parents' one.... - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:24:48 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: What is reality? NJC Kate Bennett wrote: >So much of reality is actually very subjective... > all of it is. none of us know what reality is. We cannot experoience it in our present sate. we can only surmise from the menaings we create. Everything is filtered thru our brains and is dependent upon how that works. We don't see the world as it is but as our brain interprets it. Not just in thought but in physical terms too. As someone said: 'we do not see the world as it is but how we are'. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:49:03 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: What is reality? NJC colin "As someone said: 'we do not see the world as it is but how we are'. " i like that quote! rings true to me! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:35:25 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: What is reality? NJC Kate wrote: > So much of reality is actually very subjective... Exactly. Here's an example: In George Bush's reality, Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). In the U.N. weapons inspectors' reality, there were no WMDs to be found in Iraq. But the U.S. went to war against Iraq anyway. Now lots of people are dead because of Bush's "reality," which was really his subjectivity. THAT's reality: People are dead because of Bush's subjectivity. And I don't know about anyone else, but in my reality, I don't feel one bit safer. In fact, I feel less safe. A lot less. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:47:15 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: What is reality? NJC Lori Fye wrote: > >THAT's reality: People are dead because of Bush's subjectivity. And I don't >know about anyone else, but in my reality, I don't feel one bit safer. In >fact, I feel less safe. A lot less. > >Lori > > > I have a lot of difficulty with this war. I have almost 100% belief that Bush and Blair lied to us all about why they were going to war. I have no doubt at all that we are much less 'safe'. There will be more atrocities. It is just a matter of time. However, the Iraqi people are now free of this man who terrorised them. He murdered many of his own, tortured, maimed, and otherwise abused his people. Yet Bush and Blair killed many too. The whole thing is a mess. Even though it was not the reason for the war, is freeing those people from Hussein worth it? Can the war be jusitfied for just that? I think it cannot be justified becasue it was a byproduct of the war, not the reason. I can see why the 'axis of evil' would view the USA and UK as the 'axis of evil'. I think they would have as much justification. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:10:00 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: What is reality? NJC Colin wrote: > However, the Iraqi people are now free of this man who terrorised them. He > murdered many of his own, tortured, maimed, and otherwise abused his people. > Yet Bush and Blair killed many too. The whole thing is a mess. Even though > it was not the reason for the war, is freeing those people from Hussein worth > it? Can the war be jusitfied for just that? I think it cannot be justified > becasue it was a byproduct of the war, not the reason. And I think you are right, Colin. It cannot be justified. I could get with the program if we went to war against every fucked up regime on the planet, or every country that "threatens" world security. But we don't. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:11:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: What is reality? NJC >THAT's reality: People are dead because of Bush's subjectivity. And I don't know about anyone else, but in my reality, I don't feel one bit safer. In fact, I feel less safe. A lot less. Lori< Like you Lori, I feel less safe because as many predicted (those with real middle east experience), attacking Iraq would breed terrorism, not quell it... To my ears, the simple terms in which this administration views the world sound scarily ignorant... If there is anyone with an agenda it is these guys who won't let simple facts get in their way... What a lethal combination, the political PNAC agenda mixed with religious dominionism... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:50:53 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC Hi everyone!! I have been literally working over a hundred hours a week...so I am spent. I have had little time for anything...and I miss my good friends on the list Thanks for posting this Laura. Vince you made a comment about this post..I deleted it.. but I think the crux of your reply was that to show Jesus in this violent manner i.e. crushing the head of the snake was not scriptural and an abomination. Yes..Mel Gibson used artistict license ...his interpertation. Jesus crushing the head of the snake ..was it not symbolic of Jesus defeating death...evil....ie..crushing the head of the serpeant...satan? Didn't Jesus Christ redemptive suffering and His resurrrection do just that? I saw a spokeperson from a Jewish organization on ..I believe.. MsNBC and they polled 1000 moviegoers after they saw the Passion. One of the questions asked was: Do you hold Jewish people today responsible for the death of Jesus. Less then two percent said yes. This spokeperson said the movie is actually having the oppisite effect that they thought it would have. Also..the Vatican put out a statement a few days ago and said The Passion WAS NOT anti-semetic. And people who thought that is was must think that the Gospels are also anti-Jewish. I point this out because this tells me that the movie is scriptural. Of couse..many minsters from various demonitations find it scriputual as well. And ..as you know..I did ..too. Bob..,I'm glad you are back..you have been missed. Bree > I have a friend who is working on a doctorate in scriptures at >Marquette University and asked him for some input on The Passion. I >thought >his >opinion was interesting so here it is below. > >Love, >Laura > >"Not knowing the specific questions your friends have been discussing, I >can >only speak at a general level. Is this movie in keeping with the >Scriptures? >Yes, I think so. > >The movie is not a completely adequate account of the passion--but for that >matter, none of the four inspired gospels is a completely adequate account: >that's why we have four and not just one. > >Another thing one must notice about the gospels is that they not only >report >what happened, but subtly interpret what is happening as they tell it. >When >Luke speaks about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane he describes Jesus as >being >in "agov", a Greek word which can also refer to athletic contests. In >other >words, Jesus was struggling hard in a contest. Against whom did he >struggle? >Earlier in Luke's Gospel, at the end of the temptation in the desert >(4:13), >Luke says that the devil departed from Jesus "until an opportune time". By >choosing his words and phrasing carefully, Luke lets us know that Jesus is >struggling against Satan in the Garden, even though Satan did not appear >physically >in the Garden. > >Mel Gibson's movie needs to do the same thing. Watching a mere videotape >of >the passion would leave us in about the same position as the disciples who >were there, and didn't understand anything of what they saw until much >later, >after the resurrection. But how can Gibson accomplish what Luke >accomplished >by >choice of words and phrasing when Gibson is telling his story with film, >which >uses sight instead hearing as the medium of communication? His solution >(which he gets from Ann Catherine Emmerich) is to incorporate symbols in >the >movie. So in the Garden of Gethsemane, Gibson has Satan actually present, >trying >to tempt Jesus, sending a snake out to Jesus. When Jesus stands up and >stomps >on the snake, the message is clear: Jesus just won a struggle with Satan. >This is how Gibson accomplishes what Luke's Gospel does with word choices >and >phrasing. > >So Gibson's movie is not "faithful to the gospels" in the sense that none >of >the gospels record an actual snake in the garden. But it is faithful to >the >gospels in that it interprets the gospels the way the gospels interpret the >passion, and in its interpretation is faithful to the meaning of the >gospels." > _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:58:01 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: Bush's "faith" NJC PC Hi Kate.. I"m sorry.. I'm just getting around now to a question you asked me when I first posted about Mel Gibson's movie..The Passion Of The Christ. I wrote that I'm just as responsible as the Jews..Romans and whoever else was present at that time. And you wondered about this. Because His Death was for the ENTIRE human race. This is what I believe...it's totally up to the individual to reject or accept. BUsh: I do understand people disagreeing with him..but have been somewhat perplexed about the hate that many feel for him. I do think going into Iraq was something we had to do. (and should have been done long before we actually did go in) My partner..Marianne.. was opposed to the war and we have had many late night telephone discussions about Bush..yes..she hates him...and the war. But now that we are there..and things are turning around.. albeit slowly.. is there nothing good that the opposition can state? For instance....in a poll just taken a few days ago in Iraq .. a whopping 72 percent said they want democracy. Ninety percent of the children will be immunized by years end. (Hillary where are you?! It takes a villiage? Remember?) Children are going to school...the water is cleaner than it has ever been. Most importantly.. the tyrant is put away. Just today all the news services reported that Saddam stole close to 10 Billion dollars from his people. Monies that should have gone for food..education...hospitals.. twenty -five million people are free to practice their religion...to speak out....freedom for the first time in decades. I'm sure President Bush did not make this decision to go to war without many a sleepless nights. I just wonder why the silence? Bree now enjoying ..my one evening off in a long time. >Kakki >it's always been apparent how much some people here hate and fear >Bush. It blows my mind sometimes< > >I don't hate him either & if he were not the president of this country i >could care less about the dude... I do detest that he has the power he >does & I do fear what he is doing along with the help of his >administration... There are so many who feel this way in this country & >around the world... It absolutely blows my mind that anyone not living >in a cave could not on SOME level understand why people feel this way, >even if they still were in support of bush... > >I can easily understand why some dislike kerry even though I don't... > >But blind allegience to any leader is a very very scary thing to me... > >Kate >www.katebennett.com >"bringing the melancholy world of >twilight to life almost like magic" >The All Music Guide _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 21:59:52 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC >> Yes..Mel Gibson used artistict license ...his interpertation. Jesus > crushing the head of the snake ..was it not symbolic of Jesus defeating > death...evil....ie..crushing the head of the serpeant...satan? > > Didn't Jesus Christ redemptive suffering and His resurrrection do just > that? Thanks for your post Bree...that was my feeling as well, that it's just a metaphor, symbolic of the triumph of good over evil. Like in the Lord of the Rings, the people of Middle Earth find they have to attack and destroy the orcs, horrible, nauseating creatures so that good will ultimately triumph in the end. Tolkien was a deeply religious man. Victor NPIMH: Tom Waits "Gotta have a chocolate Jesus..." Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:17:52 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > I saw a spokeperson from a Jewish organization on > ..I believe.. MsNBC and > they polled 1000 moviegoers after they saw the > Passion. One of the > questions asked was: Do you hold Jewish people > today responsible for the > death of Jesus. Less then two percent said yes. > This spokeperson said > the movie is actually having the oppisite effect > that they thought it would > have. > > Also..the Vatican put out a statement a few days ago > and said The Passion > WAS NOT anti-semetic. And people who thought that > is was must think that > the Gospels are also anti-Jewish. Bree, on the one hand, it's gratifying to hear that only 2% hold the Jews responsible... although even that's too many IMO. On the other hand, just because the Vatican says the film isn't anti-semitic - Jeeezus, who are they to say so, and just because they say so, doesn't make it so. The thing with crushing the snake's head has been around for a while as a symbol of destroying Satan or evil, so it's nothing new and yes, I would see this as a symbol and nothing more. On the other hand, snakes always take the rap, don't they? As a persssson born in the year of the ssssssnake, I object! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:24:52 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC Thanks all!! --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > Nate had a great night's sleep, and woke up this > morning with > no pain which is pretty amazing considering he was > hurting > pretty badly yesterday. > > To God be the glory, great thing he has done (so > goes the song) > and also to you guys - I wasn't being patronizing > when I said > you were my BEST friends, y'all are in my blood like > you-know-what. > Well, you've got your holy wine, so this could be the church you're looking for, Muller! However, I'd like to chime in with a glad Nate is feeling better, and may he feel even betterer tomorrow; and like you, and others who have testified (can I get a witness!), I am SOOO glad I found this place, this haven, this gathering-place of kindred souls. I have taken great comfort in being here, reading and chatting to people on this list and I do believe it has given me a lot of strength to deal with a number of difficulties over the years. I've laughed, I've cried, y'know the drill. There are some arguments, the occasional flame war, but also lots of laughter and the good company of people ALL OVER THE WORLD and, although others may differ in their opinions on this, I feel I'm the better for it. So god/dess/deity/higher power or just plain good will bless you all. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:49:01 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Bush's "faith" NJC PC Bree wrote: > I'm sure President Bush did not make this decision to go to war without many > a sleepless nights. Not to be a spoiler, but I just can't see Bush tossing and turning over this. He PUSHED too hard, and seemed unable to wait, to go to war. Do I think he's really that inhuman? Honestly? Yes. > I just wonder why the silence? Because very few here are convinced that the news tells the truth, or that the poll numbers honestly reflect the opinions of the Iraqis. And then there are all those damn bombs that keep exploding, a new one every day. I'm glad Saddam is in custody, but there were other ways to accomplish that, and I just don't buy that the U.S. (and the "coalition") did the right thing. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:12:28 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC Bree Mcdonough wrote: > Of couse..many minsters from various demonitations find it scriputual > as well. And ..as you know..I did ..too. Many more do not. And a lot of ministers sold their soul to the hype. And I'd ask for a refund from whoever you paid to teach any Bible courses you took... :-) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 01:23:49 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Scriptures and The Passion, NJC Victor Johnson wrote: >>>Yes..Mel Gibson used artistict license ...his interpertation. Jesus >>> >>> >>crushing the head of the snake ..was it not symbolic of Jesus defeating >>death...evil....ie..crushing the head of the serpeant...satan? >> >>Didn't Jesus Christ redemptive suffering and His resurrrection do just >>that? >> >> > > >Thanks for your post Bree...that was my feeling as well, that it's just a >metaphor, symbolic of the triumph of good over evil. Like in the Lord of >the Rings, the people of Middle Earth find they have to attack and destroy >the orcs, horrible, nauseating creatures so that good will ultimately >triumph in the end. Tolkien was a deeply religious man. > > The message of the Gospel is to be against message. The idea of Jesus committing violence on a living thing is anti Gospel. What was the command Jesus gave in the Garden - "put away your sword" -- maybe go back to the Sermon on the Mount - "resist not evil" - and that might get you to the Gospel message of Jesus I could make a movie with Jesus dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima or Jesus as John Wayne Gacy and say that was artistic license and it would be just wrong, some things are just wrong And the Gospels are not the Lord of the Rings - I suppose the idea of non violence is a horrible concept to grasp but it is so - there is not one, not one, not one, not one dialogue in the Scriptures between God and/or Jesus with the Evil One of evil, however one wishes to term it, in which violence is a feature of course Mel Gibson makes better movies than God makes Scriptures so to hell with God, yes, in the name of artistic license, so we can embrace violence Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:58:16 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Bush's "faith" NJC PC Hi bree, thanks for the response, it helps me understand more what you meant... Bree > I wrote that I'm just as responsible as the Jews..Romans and whoever else was present at that time. And you wondered about this. Because His Death was for the ENTIRE human race.< ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #118 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)