From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #113 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, March 17 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 113 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc ["Kakki" ] Unreleased Songs recordings? ["Marian Russell" ] Re: joni's lowest note [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Unreleased Songs recordings? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC Gill in Madrid (PC) [Garret ] Lucy the diamond star in the sky, NJC [LCStanley7@aol.com] Vinyl LPs ["jlobello" ] nostalgia NJC probably [Garret ] Re: Stryngs news (NJC) [Chris Marshall ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc now God & all that ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc [Randy Remote ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc now God & all that [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Transferring Albums to CD ["gomc" ] puppy update njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: NJC Gill in Madrid (PC) ["Kate Bennett" ] a case of you [Kate ] Re: a case of you [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Unreleased Songs recordings? [Gary Zack ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc ["Kakki" ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc ["Kakki" ] Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc [Randy Remote ] Today's Library Links: March 17 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:59:05 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Bree wrote: > >That I am just as responsible as the Jews of that time. . the Romans > and whoever else was present for the arrest..and the death of Christ. I helped drive > the nails!< And Kate wrote: > I was raised protestant & I don't remember learning that we were all > responsible for his death... Well, I guess it is not so much what all Catholics were taught vs. what all Protestants were taught. I have read a lot of peoples' reviews and reactions to the movie and I have read mostly Protestants expressing the same feelings as Bree. It seems like it would depend on not only what sect of Christianity you were raised in, but what region of the world or U.S. you lived in, what was the particular interpretation of the church powers or individual teacher who imparted Christianity, the bible to you, etc. I only bring it up because as a Catholic I was not personally taught that I was responsible (at least I don't remember that and I was pretty well immersed in both Catholicism AND the Protestant beliefs). I was taught Christ died for our sins. I guess, if I'm a believer, that means that I have to accept that I am a sinner and then, by extension, all who believe are responsible in some way. But I sense that that feeling of responsibility is not of the "martyr complex" sort because as a Christian you are also taught that you are saved in Christ and by grace. There is no denying that the movie has had a profound spiritual effect on many, many people. I think it is ultimately pretty difficult to express our spiritual beliefs in mere words. We are human (most of us) and most don't have the capacity to be the oracle of the angels. I hate to see the war of words when people discuss spiritual beliefs - the hairsplitting, "my interpretation is superior to yours" kind of thing. If it ain't in your heart and soul to begin with, all the picking nits and fighting in the world isn't going to bring anyone closer to what it's all supposed to be about. I suspect children have a better grasp on it all than adults. Maybe more of us have to actually see the movie (I have not yet) to be able to gain more insight or to judge it. I do wonder why people who don't believe in any of it are having such a fit about it all. Why would it bother them if they think it's all crazy bunk anyway?! Why do they worry that we are all going to be brainwashed when they believe we are already brainwashed to begin with?! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:10:04 -0800 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Unreleased Songs recordings? From the list of unreleased songs at www.jonimitchell.com, I found a fair number that I have never heard before. Do recordings of these songs exist? : Ballad In Blue CARA'S CASTLE DAISY SUMMER PIPER Endless Summer Free Darling GEMINI TWIN HERE TODAY, GONE TOMORROW I WON'T CRY JEREMY Julie's Mom Kelly Lazy Summer LOVE IS LIKE A BIG BRASS BAND MIDNIGHT COWBOY SONG, THE MIDSUMMER MORNING MOON IN THE MIRROR POOR SAD BABY Song To A Daydreamer STRAW-FLOWER ME What Will You Give Me WHO HAS SEEN THE WIND Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:56:53 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's lowest note "I also listened for some of the highest notes and found: California - F# All I Want - F" Thanks for the continued info, Marian...you too are very sharp! ;~) Bob NP: The Tribe, "Urge For Going" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:05:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Unreleased Songs recordings? "Do recordings of these songs exist?" Not that I've ever heard, but of course that doesn't mean they don't exist. In the case of "The Midnight Cowboy Song", folksinger Donal Leace recorded it and he told me that he worked from a tape of singing it...a tape that he still has! So that one definitely exists. "Song To A Daydreamer" is actually "Blue on Blue" and should not be listed with these other titles. Bob, hoping to hear all of these someday... NP: Doris Hardoon, "Conversation" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:04:57 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: NJC Gill in Madrid (PC) Gillian, Debra, thank you for all the thoughts and feelings you have shared. I am not really capable of contributing to the political side of this conversation as my political knowledge is not very sophisticated and not always accurate as it is tinted by how i *feel* about things (some would say this is completely valid too). in terms of the human tragedy i am deeply moved (i regularly get my partner to explain things and places to me but i tend to not be *able* to listen to "rational" political and legal talk and get carried away the more human-wellbeing side of it, if you know what i mean). > It's probably crossed everyone's >mind but I'll say it anyway... Londoners and fellow New Yorkers, watch >out, and stay off the trains if you can, especially when they're packed >at morning rush hour. I heard about the madrid bombings ( i cant bring myself to use the term Madrid Massacre as this is the headline of choice in the tabloids, and they are not always the best informed sources and tend to be guided, imo, by knee jerk reactions that are not always apropriate) as i left for the tube here in London - - the estimated deaths at that point was 15! It was early, the tube was busy. I felt vulnerable. I was lodged between businessmen and students on the tube thinking that there must be close to 400 people on this one train, probably more. I have never felt that kind of vulnerability before; i just wanted to get off the train, get out of doors, but, due to commitments, there really was no other option. Coming from Dublin, i've always felt removed from these kind of things, even from the violence in Northen Ireland. I obviously cant comment on the motivations of these terrorists, but if part of their intention was to shock even the most oblivious of citizens around the world, then i think they did this. GARRET - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:53:34 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Lucy the diamond star in the sky, NJC > Diamond star thrills astronomers > By Dr David Whitehouse > BBC News Online science editor > > A diamond that is almost forever twinkling in the sky is a diamond star of 10 billion trillion trillion > carats, astronomers have discovered. > > The cosmic diamond is a chunk of crystallised carbon, 4,000 km across, > some 50 light-years from the Earth in the constellation Centaurus. > > It's the compressed heart of an old star that was once bright like our > Sun but has since faded and shrunk. > > Astronomers have decided to call the star "Lucy" after the Beatles > song, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. > > Twinkle twinkle > > "You would need a jeweller's loupe the size of the Sun to grade this > diamond," says astronomer Travis Metcalfe, of the Harvard-Smithsonian > Center for Astrophysics, who led the team of researchers that > discovered it. > > The diamond star completely outclasses the largest diamond on Earth, > the 530-carat Star of Africa which resides in the British Crown Jewels. > > The huge cosmic diamond - technically known as BPM 37093 - is actually > a crystallised white dwarf. A white dwarf is the hot core of a star, > left over after the star uses up its nuclear fuel and dies. It is made > mostly of carbon. > > For more than four decades, astronomers have thought that the interiors > of white dwarfs crystallised, but obtaining direct evidence became > possible only recently. > > The white dwarf is not only radiant but also rings like a gigantic > gong, undergoing constant pulsations. > > "By measuring those pulsations, we were able to study the hidden > interior of the white dwarf, just like seismograph measurements of > earthquakes allow geologists to study the interior of the Earth. > > "We figured out that the carbon interior of this white dwarf has > solidified to form the galaxy's largest diamond," says Metcalfe. > > Astronomers expect our Sun will become a white dwarf when it dies 5 > billion years from now. Some two billion years after that, the Sun's > ember core will crystallise as well, leaving a giant diamond in the > centre of the solar system. > > "Our Sun will become a diamond that truly is forever," says Metcalfe. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3492919.stm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:00:43 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Vinyl LPs All I finally completed my Joni vinyl collection (except for Night Ride Home)! I scored big time yesterday when the used book store I deal with came up with: STAS Clouds Blue (I already had this) Mingus Shadows and Light CMIARS The cover to STAS is like new and it was the cheapest at 3 bucks. Although, the record had no scratches it was full of pops and hisses. The Clouds album cover was a little more wore and the recording was about the same quality as the STAS. Blue was like new, with CD quality sound and the cover was excellent. Mingus was the same as Blue in both respects. Shadows and Light was also excellently preserved, but the cover was haggarded and it was a "cut out". CMIARS had a good cover but the recording had low level pops and hisses. Seems to me the later Asylum recordings ('79/'80) were on better quality vinyl. The Blue album was also of the "good" vinyl, and had to be printed in the late 80s because it had a bar-code on the back of the album cover. I'm still looking for a vinyl copy of Night Ride Home. Jono ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:46:54 +0000 From: Garret Subject: nostalgia NJC probably It's funny how nice nostalgia can feel sometimes. It's great to connect with friends that have been out of your life for some time. I met with a friend yesterday that i have not seen since my three month stay in London in 2001. Our emails have been sporadic at best and guarded at worst. It was nice. Very nice. I may have been a little awkward to start with, but that's just the way i am. We are probably more suited as friends now than back then and that was such a great realisation; communication, honesty, much easier now. Funny how that works. I've been playing the song Paths That Cross by Patti Smith over in my head since last night, and i seem to be enjoying the nostalgia. I may just set about contacting some more of the dear friends, now merely dear memories, that i've neglected over the past four years. In some cases it will involve apologies and hiding pride, in others i imagine it can only be great. yea, nostalgia is not a bad thing. GARRET - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:24:55 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Stryngs news (NJC) Aww shucks, you guys. Too kind, as usual. Flippant replies like this aside, all the positive feedback means a hell of a lot to us, and it's so nice to be able to share our excitement with a like-minded bunch of people. Thankyou all. (PS. 7 new songs up on the website... :) - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:32:48 -0500 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc now God & all that Catherine wrote: "Man made God in his own image and not the other way around" This is one of the best, most accurate things I have ever read. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:47:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Mel Gibson's movie njc That is very true...i offered my childhood upbringing as my only personal orientation to christianity (sunday school) which was pretty light it seems (but I enjoyed the stories of jesus very much which is what must have first informed my orientation as to what was important) it is interesting to me to see how broad christianity really is... But it seems to me that people filter their beliefs through their own experience & intellect & hearts... I have known some who have taken on the martyr idea personally, because that is how they relate to the world... I love the phrase 'oracle of the angels'... Yes, words fall short of trying to express such things... Humans will never stop trying & the arts (music, art, movies etc) can come close at times... Kakki >Well, I guess it is not so much what all Catholics were taught vs. what all Protestants were taught... I think it is ultimately pretty difficult to express our spiritual beliefs in mere words. We are human (most of us) and most don't have the capacity to be the oracle of the angels.< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:51:26 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Kakki wrote: > I do wonder why people > who don't believe in any of it are having such a fit about it all. Why > would it bother them if they think it's all crazy bunk anyway?! Why do they > worry that we are all going to be brainwashed when they believe we are > already brainwashed to begin with?! ;-) I haven't heard of this reaction to the movie....but it's no mystery why religious fervor makes non-believers (and even believers) uncomfortable. The Crusades, the 9-11 attack, the millions upon millions butchered in the name of religion. When someone's actions are approved by God, they can justify anything, and have done so. When people in power wrap themselves in the cloak of religion, it is even scarier. Bush thinks he was chosen by God to be president, and most likely thinks that any action he takes is divinely inspired. Aside: Canada's former PM recently said that Canada would never have elected someone who said that (although W didn't say it before the election). I also understand why such a successful film based on the beliefs of a sub-cult of Catholicism that denies the holocaust, etc makes people uncomfortable. RR who thinks that obsession with violence is a sign of mental illness. ps I thought Braveheart sucked, too, and would have been about 10 minutes long without all the battle scenes..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:51:40 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc now God & all that Shades of Andy Partridge - from XTC - one of my favorite writers right up there with Joni. From his "Dear God": "Did you make disease, and the diamond blue? Did you make mankind after we made you? And the devil too!" Read the whole lyric at: http://chalkhills.org/reelbyreal/s_Dear.html#lyrics Bob NP: Angie Nussey, "Stop Worrying" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:02:47 -0600 From: "gomc" Subject: NJC Transferring Albums to CD BlankI'm looking for help in how to transfer my vinyl albums to CD (I = have a PC). Please reply off-list if you can assist. Thanks. Barb gomc12@comcast.net [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Blank Bkgrd.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:13:29 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: puppy update njc This is so sad, I am so sorry colin... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:14:37 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: NJC Gill in Madrid (PC) Debra >That shows how distrustful many people here are of this administration.< That is what it boils down to, imo... In spite of so many things wethepeople may not know, there is so much info that we already have that shows how deceptive & secretive this administration has been & is... The lies are obviously there for anyone to see (who wants to)... We were warned by many with years of experience in the middle east, about the repercussions of attacking iraq but these PNAC guys had a plan & by golly they were going to carry it out... My hope is that what happened in Spain is an indicator of what will happen here... people getting tired of a govt that lies to them... & i keep hearing that jackson browne song playing in my head (sorry joni!): Lives in The Balance I've been waiting for something to happen For a week or a month or a year With the blood in the ink of the headlines And the sound of the crowd in my ear You might ask what it takes to remember When you know that you've seen it before Where a government lies to a people And a country is drifting to war And there's a shadow on the faces Of the men who send the guns To the wars that are fought in places Where their business interest runs On the radio talk shows and the t.v. You hear one thing again and again How the u.s.a. stands for freedom And we come to the aid of a friend But who are the ones that we call our friends-- These governments killing their own? Or the people who finally can't take any more And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone There are lives in the balance There are people under fire There are children at the cannons And there is blood on the wire There's a shadow on the faces Of the men who fan the flames Of the wars that are fought in places Where we can't even say the names They sell us the president the same way They sell us our clothes and our cars They sell us every thing from youth to religion The same time they sell us our wars I want to know who the men in the shadows are I want to hear somebody asking them why They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are But they're never the ones to fight or to die And there are lives in the balance There are people under fire There are children at the cannons And there is blood on the wire Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:30:44 -0600 From: Kate Subject: a case of you oh i wish i had permission to forward the email i just received about joni's heyday being in her youth, her best work done then, etc, and diana krall singing a case of you better than joni herself. it is to laugh! surely diana is not the only person who has covered this song!! sheesh. i have some serious armwrestling to do here. point me in the direction of that list of 'a case of you covers', someone, please. kate of the north - -- http://xoetc.antville.org Who does she think she is Anaos Nin? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:44:03 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: a case of you Kate, go to my "Joni Undercover" section of the jmdl: In the section marked: 'Search the Covers Database ' Use the dropdown menu to select ACOY and you'll see the 45 selections there. Bob NP: Laura Nyro, "Child In A Universe" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:08:56 -0500 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: Unreleased Songs recordings? I thought I read somewhere that "Ballad In Blue" was actually "Blue on Blue" as well. Doe anyone else remember reading this? Best, Gary SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >"Do recordings of these songs exist?" > > >"Song To A Daydreamer" is actually "Blue on Blue" and should not be listed >with these other titles. > >Bob, hoping to hear all of these someday... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:39:54 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: was mondegreen, now is the NYJonifest I know this is weeks old now, but I have to add a plug, that while you are registering to come to the Northeast Jonifest - where you will have days and hours to hear Joni music sung and played by countless talented individuals (not me!), and have people who will instantly get it when you say some line from a song, and you will be surrounded by beauty - that you also get yourself to the raffle site and tell us what wonderful and unique raffle item you might be able to contribute in support of our fundraising efforts. Chuck mentioned the Mondegreen book that was a FABULOUS raffle prize, and last year there were amazing discs from list members, books and magazines with loads of Joni content, socks, clocks and stocks (well, no stocks, but socks and clocks for sure). So please, be creative and support this wacky, wonderful community! Maggie - -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Eisenhardt [mailto:c.eisenhardt@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 3:13 PM To: AsharaJM@aol.com Cc: joni@smoe.org; cul@deeperwants.com Subject: Re: raving raveen raven curls Thanks for the hand-off, Ashara (hey, Barb and I are going to register any day now for the Northeast Jonifest comin' up soon at Camp Balmy Love in the beautiful Catskills, you can count on us!) Badda-bing! Mondegreens, eh? This is a term applied to 'misunderstood lyrics' - when the ear or comprehension fails, the mind fills the gaps, even when it makes no sense whatsoever. We have kicked around 'mondegreens' ever so many times in the list (but I'm always ready for another round), regarding misunderstood lyrics in general, and Joni lyrics in particular. The term 'mondegreen' comes from an essay originally published in the New Yorker in the mid 50's, by a frequent contributer in those times named Sylvia Wright. The 'mondegreen' article is collected in a volume of essays of hers (which was a MAJOR PRIZE in the Northeast Jonfest Incredible Giveaway Raffle two years ago!) entitled (something like) "Get away from me with those Christmas Presents!" Sylvia Wright coined the term after a Scotch folksong called 'The Bonny Earl of Murray' (about some war or other in the highlands vs. lowlands in a distant century past). It seems some bad guys had slain the Earl of Murray and 'layd him on the green'. Sylvia wight, hearing this song in her youth, always heard this lyric as 'slain the Earl of Murray, and Lady Mondegreen' So, to her, it was a tragedy compounded. she was shocked later in life to learn there was no Lady involved. So she wrote this essay about this 'phenomennon' and noted some other examples. There are websites now devoted to this, usually taking examples from us public in the context of the popular song (altho church hymns and litanies are also a rich vein for mondegreens.) You can Google the mondegreen archives as you wish. Here are a few favorites: - --'blessed are thou, a monk swimmin' - --'Lead On, O Kinky Turtle' (King Eternal) - --'Gladly, the Cross-Eyed Bear (Gladly the Cross I'd Bear) The Beatles... - --'In My Llife, I've Loved the Mall' - --the above mentioned 'Camp Balmy Love' (don't forget! register for Jonifest Today!) - --and the immortal 'the girl with collitis goes by' Joni monegreens are always worth a submission to the jmdl. (JC!) I had one where I always heard 'I found this empty seat in this crowded waiting room' as 'I found my self-deceit '....hmmm that sort of ups the ante on the whole tune....Ashara always heard ' Ink on a pen' as ' In Connepen ' (you know, that little town in northeastern New Jersey) also, I always heard Harry's House as 'and Harry's decoupe' not 'Harry's takehome pay'. Ok, oK. That's it for mondegreens for now. Please archive this message and pass it on to the new folk so I don't have to keep rewriting it every now and then. Don't forget to register for JoniFest today! Send in your favorite mondegreen right after that, Joni mondegreens getting extra credit... ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:58:43 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni mention in the new RS (Ben Affleck on the cover) on page 26, this bit of 'modern trivia': "Cure singer Robert Smith stains his lips with Jane Cosmetics #3 Reddest, but Joni Mitchell prefers Estee Lauder's Silent Red". Too bad Andrea's not around, she would have enjoyed seeing that. Bob NP: Sun Kil Moon, "Duk Koo Kim" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:25:19 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Mel Gibson's movie, njc Hey Laurent, I'm sorry to hear this. One of uncles was raised in a Jewish family. He owned a hardware store and was a volunteer firefighter when I was a kid. By all accounts he's a great person and he raised my favorite cousins. I know it is no comfort now but... If an Christian gives you a hard time about being a Jew, please remind them that the Jewish faith was "good enough" to be practiced by Jesus Christ. That always leaves 'em flat-footed and sputtering. Sincerely, Jim >When I was 7 years old, I got insulted in the school yard by a kid who added the justification that Jews killed Jesus. This 7 year old must have heard it from somewhere. Now even if it were true, it may seem crazy to you to blame some people for what their ancestors did or didn't do 2K years ago.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:34:10 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Randy wrote: > I haven't heard of this reaction to the movie....but it's no mystery > why religious fervor makes non-believers (and even believers) > uncomfortable. The Crusades, the 9-11 attack, the millions upon > millions butchered in the name of religion. But a true (for lack of a better word) Christian has no motivation to butcher or harm anyone in the name of religion. I didn't make the comment in regard to the movie itself but to the general Christian bashing that rears its head in the face of any discussion or expression of Christianity. I've thought it over a bit though and concluded it may just be a kind of Michael Moore, "let's be as obnoxious as we can and get them all upset" (insert Beavis and Butthead snorting here) kind of thing. >When someone's actions are approved by God, they can justify anything, and have done so. > When people in power wrap themselves in the cloak of religion, > it is even scarier. But, but, but, those people are not at all representative of their faith and therefore not truly religious so it's a moot point. There is no religion I can think of that teaches that God "approves" this or that action and that justifies anything one wants to do. Only perverted versions or interpretations of various religious texts may teach such cr**. > Bush thinks he was chosen by God to be president, > and most likely thinks that any action he takes is divinely inspired. I've read this a few times out there and have wondered at the source of the comments. Do you have a link to something I can read where Bush says this? > I also understand why such a successful film based on the beliefs of > a sub-cult of Catholicism that denies the holocaust, etc makes people > uncomfortable. There is no "sub-cult" of Catholicism that denies the holocaust. That is ridiculous. Where did you read this? The only thing I have read is that Mel Gibson's father seems to have bizarre ideas in general and has made remarks signifying that he may belong to those groups that deny the holocaust. Such groups have zero affiliation with the Catholic church and their members come from all religions or are athiests. As much as people have bashed the movie, it is very interesting that many Protestant groups, some of who normally think Catholics are not Christians, etc., have been some of the biggest supporters of the movie. I had the great misfortune once to meet a man who was a prime publisher of the holocaust denial publications. He just so happened to be renting an office space next door to a business where I once worked. Once I found out what he did, I no longer spoke to him, but before I knew, he told me about his growing up in Northern Ireland and all the ways he and his friends used to torture the Catholic kids in the neighborhood in Belfast. (The L.A. Times and other local newspapers eventually caught up with him and his office was later firebombed by the Jewish Defense League). The Passion is not a "Catholic" movie - it is based on the gospels of the Christian New Testament of the Bible as far as I can tell. I've read both the King James and Catholic versions of the Bible and the story of the crucifixtion is the same in both. Maybe Gibson went over the top (don't know cuz I haven't seen it) with it but everything I've read about the chronology of events in the movie are essentially everything I've read in the Bible, too. > who thinks that obsession with violence is a sign of mental illness. The violence in the Bible is not in there for people to obsesss upon - it is to show the evil of violence and to teach people to turn away from it. Kakki, not a "good" Christian, but wanting to defend those who are ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:32:02 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Kate wrote: > That is very true...i offered my childhood upbringing as my only > personal orientation to christianity (sunday school) which was pretty > light it seems (but I enjoyed the stories of jesus very much which is > what must have first informed my orientation as to what was important) Wisdom of the child. Probably as close as it gets. > it is interesting to me to see how broad christianity really is... But > it seems to me that people filter their beliefs through their own > experience & intellect & hearts... They do. > I have known some who have taken on > the martyr idea personally, because that is how they relate to the > world... I was going to make a bad joke here about myself but I won't ;-) > I love the phrase 'oracle of the angels'... Yes, words fall > short of trying to express such things... Humans will never stop trying > & the arts (music, art, movies etc) can come close at times... And that capacity of some of those in the arts to sometimes break through is what has always proved and reinforced to me that there is a divine dimension. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:54:13 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's movie njc Kakki wrote: > Randy wrote: > > >When someone's actions are approved by God, they can justify anything, and > have done so. > > When people in power wrap themselves in the cloak of religion, > > it is even scarier. > > But, but, but, those people are not at all representative of their faith and > therefore not truly religious so it's a moot point. There is no religion I > can think of that teaches that God "approves" this or that action and that > justifies anything one wants to do. Only perverted versions or > interpretations of various religious texts may teach such cr**. But, but people routinely DO say that God told them to do this or that....and how can you argue with a claim like that? Regardless of whether the scriptures that form the basis of their religion support such a claim, history shows that people claim to get direction from God for all kinds of atrocious things. Christianity and Islam have historically had alot of violent followers (and leaders). Just because they are not truly religious doesn't make it any less dangerous. > > Bush thinks he was chosen by God to be president, > > and most likely thinks that any action he takes is divinely inspired. > > I've read this a few times out there and have wondered at the source of the > comments. Do you have a link to something I can read where Bush says this? Bush told James Robinson, according to Paul Harris in the November 2, 2003 New York Observer: I feel like God wants me to run for President. I cant explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it wont be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1075950,00.html > > I also understand why such a successful film based on the beliefs of > > a sub-cult of Catholicism that denies the holocaust, etc makes people > > uncomfortable. > > There is no "sub-cult" of Catholicism that denies the holocaust. That is > ridiculous. Where did you read this? Okay, you kinda got me on this. Gibson's father has publicly stated that the holocaust was a hoax. Mel himself apparently has not commented either way on his father's ideas. I think the "sub-cult" reference is valid, though-they do not recognize the pope, and the holy see does not recognize them, either. Gibson's father says the pope was installed by Jews. This is from associated press: Gibson and his son, the star of blockbuster films like "Braveheart" and "Lethal Weapon," are practitioners of an ultraconservative Catholic movement known as traditionalism. The small splinter group seeks to revive orthodox practices that were abandoned several centuries ago by mainstream Catholicism. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/5353470.htm related: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/gibson.asp > The Passion is not a "Catholic" movie - it is based on the gospels of the > Christian New Testament of the Bible as far as I can tell. Did you read Vince's posts? He has both seen the movie and is more acquinted with the Gospels than we will ever be, and he says it is inaccurate to the nth degree. > > who thinks that obsession with violence is a sign of mental illness. > > The violence in the Bible is not in there for people to obsesss upon - it is > to show the evil of violence and to teach people to turn away from it. I was referring to Mel Gibson, there. However, there is plenty of violence in the Bible that is justified, much of it from God Himself. He is running around smiting people, making them suffer, and so forth. It is integral, and comes from a time period when violence was taken for granted in human life, and assumed to be part of God's modus operandi, too. It's ironic that so many followers of the "Prince of Peace" have not, apparently, heard his message at all, or have refashioned to whatever is convienient for them. I'm not down on Christians, I know a good many of them who are decent, good people. But historically.... (shudder). RR ps I have no idea what Michael Moore's views are on all this, or care ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:03:12 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: March 17 On March 17 the following articles were published: 1967: "Interview with Ed Sciaky" - WMMR (Interview - Audio Transcription) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=606 1988: "Joni Mitchell Interview" - Book (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=390 1988: "Rock Poets from Canada Roll Anew" - New York Times (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1104 1991: "Joni Mitchell comes in from the cold" - Boston Globe (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1091 1991: "Joni Mitchell Finds The Peace of Middle Age" - New York Times (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=217 1998: "Morrison Rejoins Tour" - Addicted To Noise website (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=45 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #113 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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