From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #91 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, February 28 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 091 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- njc free speech issues on Moyers tonight [vince ] RE: in november njc ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: in november njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Vienna Teng [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Emmylou ["Richard Flynn" ] Re:Emmylou [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Emmylou [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: colin, eating animals, njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: john edwards njc [Catherine McKay ] njc nader+ ["jlobello" ] njc Gibson's movie [vince ] land mines njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:15:44 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc free speech issues on Moyers tonight Dear friends, This Friday night, the PBS show NOW with Bill Moyers will air a segment on last November's FTAA protests in Miami, the brutal tactics of the police, and the grave attack on the fundamental right of free speech in the U.S. NOW's producers interviewed AFL-CIO Secretary Treasurer Richard Trumka, union members and other protesters, and covered the Miami Civilian Investigative Panel, which formed to investigate the police tactics. The labor movement and its allies were in Miami to say that current trade policy is not working for workers in America, and it's not working for our brothers and sisters in the developing world, either. Eight million dollars of the $87 billion that President Bush sent to Iraq and Afghanistan last fall for ongoing military and intelligence operations was earmarked for use by dozens of Florida police agencies for security at the FTAA protests. The police used storm-trooper uniforms, an armored tank, helicopters, sharp-shooters, and more to create the "Miami Model" to repress the message that free trade exports America's jobs and hurts the developing countries. Journalists were "embedded" with the police, wore bullet-proof suits and gas masks, and they also became victims of police violence. Will the "Miami Model" be the new model for oppression of dissent? Please tune in on Friday night to view this seasoned journalist's view of the events. The segment is slotted to the lead the show. In DC, WETA TV Ch. 26 at 9:00 PM. 2/27/04 URL for NOW: http://www.pbs.org/now/index.html Sarah E. Massey AFL-CIO Media Relations 202-508-6947 smassey@aflcio.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:21:12 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: in november njc Let me second this, and add that the link to the Nation article you sent, Paul, helps underscore the difference: You never have to worry that Kerry, for instance, will be held hostage by the Left Behind crowd. This year, more than ever, politics is the art of the possible, as Bob Muller points out so convincingly. As for the "wedge" issue, the Georgia House defeated the constitutional amendment against gay marriage. Its proponents may try to bring it up again on Monday--so any fellow Georgians out there, call your congressman & tell them to block a second vote> Further info at Georgia Equality: http://www.georgiaequality.org/ Nationally, try Human Rights Campaign: http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/actioncenter/home.html - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of vince Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:06 PM Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: in november njc To me, to be honest, you do not make sense. Paul Mepschen wrote: > >I know I come across as a radical. And I am. But I think I make sense... >: - ) > >Paul > > Sorry. I do not not mean to offend. I reject the concept that Kerry and Edwards or any of the Democratic candidates were far to the right or even to the right. Lieberman (who I had little use for) might be conservative on many things where I am not, but he was not and never was some one from the right. And Kerry's and Edwards' records are not similar to Bush's. No way. I am a genuine leftist, been arrested for civil disobedience (the United States of America against Me was a fun case), am really a socialist at heart. I yield to no one in being a radical. I belong to the IWW just to be a card carrying radical. People here have been reading my posts since 1998. I think most would agree if there is a leftist position to take, I will take it. Vehemently. I also live in the real world. I am the gay earring wearing (both ears) chair of our our county Democratic party. And due to some circumstances not of my doing I have had my time in the local, regional, state, and national media (links to salon.com were posted here I think). And I used it to good political advantage. Lets all get off our leftist high horses and put down our radical signs (let the freak flag fly though) and get real. The court appointments are life and death. I don't care that Kerry and Edwards do not support "gay marriage." I don't care at all that some see some Clinton-esque "New Democrat" thing at work with them. Fine! Excellent! Right on! (And Kerry voted against the Defense of Marriage Act and he will get flayed for it in this campaign. Edwards was not in the Senate then. Sure Clinton pandered when he signed it. We all sell out here and there.) We all sell out here and there. None of us live so pure that we can demand purity from a candidate who we need to get elected. Getting elected. Where is, for example, gay marriage coming from? Not from the executive or legislative branches, to be sure. It is a civil rights issue for a minority. And where does that come from? FROM THE COURTS. The reason there is a constitutional amendment proposed is because anyone in the law field - from Justice Scalia down to any law student - knows that the 14th amendment to the Constitution will bring about gay marriage. Unless he 14th amendment is trumped by a new amendment, it prevails. Kerry and Edwards are not "for" gay marriage. It doesn't matter. They are opposed to the constitutional amendment, will campaign against it as they already have, and that is what builds the constituency we need. Given that the courts will rule here, who do you want making those appointments? If one really supports gay rights, IF ONE REALLY REALLY SUPPORTS GAY RIGHTS, you know this election is too crucial to sit it out or give Bush an assist by voting for anyone but the Democratic nominee. Justice O'Connor has made it clear she wants to retire but she couldn't because of her vote in Bush v Gore. Justice Stevens is in his 80s and hanging on until a Democrat is elected. Justice Ginsburg has had cancer. The person who gets sworn in January will appoint 2 if not 3 members to the Supreme Court in 2005. The person who gets sworn in January will appoint 2 if not 3 members to the Supreme Court in 2005. The person who gets sworn in January will appoint 2 if not 3 members to the Supreme Court in 2005. And Bush has made it his practice to appoint people to the judiciary in the 40s so they will be a long, long time. And if Souter, Breyer, Kennedy get sick or die, that could give the next president up to 6 nominations to make. 6 of 9... 7 of 9 if Rehnquist decides 30+ years is enough, and what do you think the odds are the Bush would name Scalia as Chief Justice? What part about that doesn't anyone get? After the current Court threw out the sodomy laws and paved the way for the Massachusetts Supreme Court decision, do you think Bush and his people will fail to vet a potential nominee on the 14th amendment issue? The sodomy decision paved the way for the marriage issue to be settled, as Justice Scalia pointed out - and he was right. Kerry and Edwards are our allies. They will do what the damned right wing Clinton did - appoint the type of justices and judges we need like Breyer and Ginsburg. In short: speaking as a gay man, anyone who fails to vote for the Democratic nominee by not voting or by voting for Nader, that person is my enemy. You are my enemy and the enemy of gay rights in America. Keep the eye on the prize. Doesn't matter about "gay marriage." It matters what the court is going to say and what matters is who appoints. It matters what the Court will rule when the federal challenge to the Defense of Marriage Act come before it. You pick who decides: A Bush court? Vote for Nader then. Because a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush BECAUSE IN THE REAL WORLD THE PERSON WHO WINS NOMINATES THE NEW COURT. Nader cannot win. The Democrat can lose. Be holy and pure and moral and cast a third party vote and stay far, far away from me when a Bush court over rules the 14th amendment on gay issues. How can Kerry who voted against the Defense of Marriage Act be attacked for not being enough for gay rights? Does your candidate have to be perfect? Only Senator Feingold voted against the Patriot Act. So some people I truly respect like Senators Levin, Bayh, Byrd, Milukski, Sarbannes voted wrong. On something important. So voting for Nader solves that how? I am sick unto death of people saying that there is no difference between the parties. One party has blocked Bush's nominations in the Senate and the way the one party has held together has meant that no one on the Supreme Court dared resign since 2001 because everyone can see the pitched battle that will happen. One party does anything for civil rights, labor, the environment. Tell me the parties are the same and I will know you are parroting George Wallace. If Gore appoints an attorney general, we have no Ashcroft. Kerry is running on replacing the attorney general. The Republicans will keep him. What part of that does anyone miss? Go down policy issue after policy issue. There are real differences. Very real. And being real: sure Dennis Kucinich says the right things. He believes the right thing. Now get over the conspiracy fantasies. Do those who say that he won't get the nomination because of the party bosses or whatever have a clue? Have you met him? He was in my town the day before the caucus on a major jobs issue and the rally that Kucinich was jam packed. The nest day was the caucus and the same people who cheered him wildly on Friday voted for Kerry on Saturday. I know because I ran the caucus and I have the ballots and I have looked at every one and I know who was at the rally. Kerry got 54% of our county vote, Kucinich got 11%. (Edwards got 17% of the vote, including mine.) Don't believe me, go to salon.com and search my name for two articles on 2-7 and 2-8 or 2-9. I was at the caucus, I know why people voted. Kucinich, mayor of Cleveland when it when bankrupt, is a great guy and he is goofy and weird as hell and he is totally unelectable not because of his views and not his looks but because of his personality and his record. The people out here in a state that has lost 120,000 manufacturing jobs in the last 3 years including 2,700 in my town of 8,000 (do the math, think about the devastation on our local economy) turned out in record numbers to vote for Kerry. Many acknowledge Kerry voted wrong on NAFTA when it was in the Senate, but they also know Kerry has been very direct in that NAFTA must be changed and Kerry knows what the issues are in that change, at least in the eyes of the people in my county who are losing their jobs for whom this is not an idle issue. Anyone wants to vote for Nader, please come to one of our county meetings and sit with 100s of people who are losing their jobs and look them in the eye and tell them that you are voting for Nader and that there is no difference between the parties, that Kerry/Edwards or Bush doesn't matter. Come and look them in the eyes. We are living with this here. We know every fault of Kerry and Edwards and all of those who ran. But this is the time to look at the bigger picture. Will the Democratic nominee be perfect? No. Is Nader perfect? Hell no. Can Nader win? No. Who can lose, Bush or the Democratic nominee? And our very imperfect Democratic party in this state - the Democrats in our state Senate announced today they will block a proposed state constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. No Nader supporter is in real life blocking that amendment, it is us "no different than Republicans" Democrats who are blocking it. Gees, give me a break on this. In this small western Michigan town a bunch of factory workers and farmers elected a gay man as their county chair. They did battle to oppose anti choice and anti gay legislation. In this all white community they are holding out against the petition drive to end affirmative action (upheld by the Supreme Court and you want Bush making the next appointments?) And these are the people you are saying are no different than Republicans? Bullshit is all I can say. You want perfection and you Nader is it? Hell, Joni Mitchell punched her maid and released "Smoking Try Another" and DED. Sometimes you look at the big picture and overlook the less important details because there is something more important going on. Sometimes you look at the big picture and overlook the less important details because there is something more important going on. Sometimes you look at the big picture and overlook the less important details because there is something more important going on. It will be Bush or Kerry/Edwards. There are no other choices that are real. It is not purity and it is not morality that this election is about, it is about who in real, life will make the decisions that effect us. Kerry and Edwards despite their imperfections listen to us. Bush does not. Kerry and Edwards listen to us. I have never been this passionate about an election. I may stay friends with someone who sits this election out or votes for Nader, but I reserve the right to not like you very much and consider that when we needed you, you voted for the enemy. The real Republicans who vote for Bush? I will always respect them. Hey, that is where they are at. At least they have the discernment to get past the holier-than-thou cliche bullshit about no difference between the parties and know that from their perspective they want you to vote for Nader because they know who it hurts. Vince who remembers very well that many on the far left wanted Reagan to win in 1980 because they thought after 4 years of Reagan, America would be ready for revolution - instead we got 8 years of Reagan and 4+4 and maybe 4 more years of Bushes. When I need to see the dream, I look to the radical left, who are good at dreams and really bad on reality, on making those dreams real. Bless them for calling us to look at the dream becuase it keeps up looking the right way but as far as paving the road to the right way, not very helpful. When I make what I can of the dream to be the reality in the lives of real people in this time, I look to reality to make it happen, piece by piece, but women's suffrage, child labor laws, abolition, choice, gay rights, civil rights, workers rights, environmental laws, were once beyond imagining and what we have gained has come through our imperfect two party system. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:39:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: in november njc **You never have to worry that Kerry, for instance, will be held hostage by the Left Behind crowd. ** Led of course by one Tim Lahaye, who was "educated" right here in good ol' Greenville SC at Bob Jones University - d'oh! Did anybody actually make it through any of those books? I had a co-worker force tham on me, and I made it about 20 pages into the first one before I was gagging on the terrible writing and storytelling. Bob, happy to be left behind that crowd! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:59:53 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Vienna Teng OK, on to some music... Vienna Teng has gotten some press here, and for good reason. She's got a new one out, and man O man does it sound good. SCJoniguy says check out some SWEET samples at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/vienna2 This note especially applies to you Tori Amos fans. Bob NP: Vienna Teng, "My Medea" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:22:34 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: NJC Emmylou I've gotten 3 of the Rhino reissues of Emmylou Harris's first five albums and they are spectacular (I have Pieces of Sky, Elite Hotel, and Quarter Moon in a Ten Cent Town). They're inexpensive (10.99 on Amazon), they put my vinyl to shame, and the bonus cuts are not filler, but really interesting outtakes. I've loved Emmylou since I used to watch her night after night in DC clubs back in 1974 & 1975 after Gram's death & before the release of Pieces of Sky. Yes now she's become an interesting songwriter, but these cds reminded me of what a great singer she was/ is. Even though this is NJC, this music was totally compatible with the Joni of Court & Spark, Miles of Aisles and Hissing in my musical memory. I had some contempt for country music, but I talked to Emmylou between sets one night and she assured me that George Jones was the greatest living country singer, which caused me to discover a whole new love and respect for country music. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:16:52 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re:Emmylou Richard Flynn wrote: > I've loved Emmylou since I used to watch her night after night in > DC clubs back in 1974 & 1975 You lucky dog! Emmylou has made alot of great music over the years-and continues to. Rhino has put out some excellent releases. It's nice when record companies do it right. I wonder if Emmylou and Joni have crossed paths. They've both worked with Neil Young. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:14:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Emmylou I just got "Gliding Bird" on CD, that goes WAY back to 1968, plus I scored a 1970 radio appearance where she does 12 songs, including a couple that she wrote and never released. Too country for my tastes, but interesting nonetheless. Bob NP: The Postal Service, "The District Sleeps Alone Tonight" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:31:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: colin, eating animals, njc --- Jennifer Faulkner wrote: > Colin, ya sound angry. Humans had to eat meat > before, but it's no longer necessary. > Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail I couldn't help but notice that Yahoo added a very pertinent tagline to the bottom of your e-mail. I guess spam is classed as meat. Mystery meat. LOL. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:50:51 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: john edwards njc --- Paul Mepschen wrote: > > If American > progressives keep voting for people far to the > right, you hold yourselves > hostage. You will never be able to build a viable, > progressive political > alternative. Because, believe me, Kerry and Edwards > are not gonna make the > changes you long for. They are gonna keep the 'war > on terror' going, and > will also stay in Iraq (I bet my life!). Sadly, now that they're in Iraq, how are they going to get out? Whatever it was going to be, Iraq is now another Viet Name, or Northern Ireland. If one of the objectives now is to give the people of Iraq the freedom to choose their own leader (and I'm not all that convinced that's a major objective, but nonetheless...), then do you get the UN peacekeeping forces there (after going against the UN to begin with... if so, for how long?), or do you just back out now and quickly? (Well, it's been a slice, but we really must be going now. So long, and thanks for all the fish...) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:45:49 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: njc nader+ I have to agree with you here Bob. Nader was a dickhead. However, all my friends who voted for him (Nader) the first time won't be fooled again. They just want to see GW out of there. Jono >I'm not sure that people in general see Edwards as someone with enough experience in the political arena. I DO think he'd be smart to sign on as veep to Kerry, that way he'd energize younger voters and also help the Dems in the South (as you know he won the primary in my state). I'm OK with either guy, actually...what concerns me now is dickhead Ralph Nader announcing his candidacy last Sunday, merely to stroke his own ego. Hopefully the folks that voted for him in 2000 (and in so doing gave us the mega-dickhead Dubya) will pull a Pete Townsend and say "We won't get fooled again", because their 'new boss' was DEFINITELY not the same as the 'old boss'!!< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:55:03 -0500 From: vince Subject: njc Gibson's movie if you want mind numbing violence that is pornographic - the more the violence repeats the more boring it becomes - if you want real anti-Semitism - so many subtle ways it I feel unclean for having seen this - if you want to see something claim to be based on the Gospels that has as little Biblical content is as possible - f you want a movie that has no pacing but stops to linger on every new way to get hot on violence if you want a movie that has a church political agenda if you want it, there it is just don't ask me to go see it with you I ran into another pastor in line at the theatre - we both agreed that we needed to see it in self defense since it is The Issue today - he and his wife and I sat together - I don't know which one of us went numb first from shock that this movie is as unBiblical is it is - you think driving a nail through someone's hand would gross you out but like a porn film, when you've seen 18,000 blow jobs the 18,001st is boring and numbing - if you had a drinking game, had a drink every time the script actually says something from the Gospels or portrays something in a Gospel, you'd be stone sober at the end of the movie - the three of us sat and watched the credits to look for one theologian, one Biblical scholar that credit was given to and as we suspected, there was none - but they do thank the Legionnaires of Christ and that is not a positive thing I wouldn't let Gage see this until he is much older - not because of the violence but because the Jesus I love is God's Love Incarnate touching loves with compassion and renewal - I don't want Gage to have these images of violence in his mind when he thinks about Jesus until he has enough other cognitive understanding to not think there is any Gospel reality in this film not the worst movie I have ever seen but one of the most disgusting to think that people will see this and think this represents anything other than a particular sect bothers me there was more Gospel in Kangaroo Jack God, forgive them and let this fad pass quickly Vince for those who want to know of the religious-political slant of this movie check out the Pius X Society and the anti-Semitic mystic Anna Catherine Emmerich, a stigmatist whose visions really did - really - supply the basis of the script ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:20:36 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: land mines njc The other day I heard that since the Vietnam War ended, more than 38,000 people have been killed by previously unexploded ordinates. I think they were mostly bombs dropped from airplanes, not land mines. All the best, Jim ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #91 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)