From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #51 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, January 29 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 051 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Candidate pairings NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] ABB NJC [BRYAN8847@aol.com] RE: Cath's Surresonant Self-Introduction, njc ["Ross, Les" ] Sent in error [WirlyPearl@aol.com] Song Poems sjc ["Paul Mepschen" ] re: music question njc ["Paul Mepschen" ] kucinich (sorry catherine) njc ["Paul Mepschen" ] Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Kucinich njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: (NJC) The "Real" World ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: music question NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Presidential Match - NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: The "Real" World NJC ["Lori Fye" ] Re: (NJC) The "Real" World ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Presidential Match - NJC - Now Kerry's Looks ["Norman Pennington" ] RE: Whitesell - author of the Joni dissertation ["Wally Kairuz" ] Kucinich NJC [fauchja@comcast.net] Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc PC ["Norman Pennington" ] NJC Re: Cath's Surresonant Self-intro, part 2 - NJC [Magic Subject: RE: Cath's Surresonant Self-Introduction, njc Wow...heads up! We've got a live one here!! Welcome. Be well. Come Magic Cath, write more and soon. Les (in a totally arSed London. Dump a bit of snow here and the place goes to rat-$hit! I swear to god!) Np : the evening of my best day - rlj (a stunning track, her very best imho) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:33:36 EST From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Kakki's father died In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:32:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:18:39 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: It's you must go and I must bide - NJC He loved, and was loved. Kakki's father has passed on. "Charlie" died Thursday night during hospitalization for an infection which was likely the result of advanced dementia. He was 92 years old. Kakki's dad grew up in Pennsylvania and along with her mother Dorothy migrated west to California shortly before WWII. When the war broke out Charles was nearly 30 years old but felt the need to enlist. Prior to his military service, Charlie worked in retail management, and after the war ended he continued retailing for many years. He later retired from a career with a major Southern California aircraft manufacturer. Charles was drawn to the arts, and instilled a great appreciation of music and painting in his only child. Those who have read Kakki's posts to this list know about her love of the arts, but may not have known, until now, that she was given an early education in creative processes by her father, who enjoyed painting and associating with musicians. Theirs was a special relationship...one of love, trust, and respect. I know Kakki will miss "Daddy" for the rest of her life but I also know she will remember him as a kind and gentle man who gave her inspiration, and "space," to become what she wanted. Which is, in my opinion, a woman of heart and mind. I spoke with Kakki last night and she is coping well. She will be away from a computer for a while, spending time with her mother. A private service is planned. As selected by the family, "Danny Boy" will be played. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:37:40 EST From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: fred simon cd In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:32:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: Subject: Re: Giving Fred Simon his due Thanks, Catherine, for the very kind words; much appreciated. Anyone interested in owning one of their very own just email me offlist at frednow@aol.com and I'll hook you up. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:37:33 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: The "Real" World NJC Lori asked >>And how many more Americans will have to die there before we say ENOUGH?<< One could also ask, for example "And how many NON-AMERICANS will have to die there before we say ENOUGH?" or "And how many PEOPLE will have to die there before we say ENOUGH?" or "And how many CIVILIANS will have to die there before we say ENOUGH?" My 'problem' with Lori's question is that it is another example of the small picture. I'm extrapolating here WAY beyond Lori's remark, but her question does illustrate a fundamental point: that US interests seem to be the only interests that concern the US, and this (rightly or wrongly) is part of the cause of the US being seen (rightly or wrongly) as the self-interested geopolitical bully/policeman. mike in bcn np Elisabet Raspall Grup - Qui s'ha begut la lluna? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 05:25:41 EST From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Sent in error Hi guys, I'm a few days behind on digests and was going through them at 5 am. I was surprised and saddened to hear of Kakki's father's passing. I thought I was forwarding the note from Scott to my email address but I accidentally copied it as well as info on Fred Simon's CD and sent them to the list. Both are things I wanted to refer to again. I guess you all needed to read them again as well. At least you know I'm still out here. My best to you, Pearl in Florida ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:44:24 +0100 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: Song Poems sjc I absolutely love love love Dar Williams, perhaps even more than Joni. Their writing is very different - much of Joni's work is very close to classic poetry, dar's work belongs more to the folk songwriting tradition, but there is some absolutely fantastic stuff out there. See www.darwilliams.net if you wanne see more lyrics (under ): dar williams - oh canada girls http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/greenworld/ocanadagirls.html dar williams - mark rothko song http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/honestyroom/markrothkosong.html dar williams - southern california wants to be western new york http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/southerncaliforniawantstob ewesternnewyork.html dar williams - Pompeii http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/thiswaspompeii.html dar williams - the ocean http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/ocean.html My favorite Joni poems are one Hejira and Don Juan -- I also love toread the early stuff without listening to it, but the poetry on these two albums is something else. paul - --------------------------------------------------------------------- The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. That one little victory, that's all she needs! Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:52:48 +0100 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: re: music question njc **** what has personally been the most exciting/important music related *anything* since start of 2000 for you?". **** Well, re-discovering Joni! And discovering pj harvey, kris delmhorst, erin mckeown, josh ritter........ paul - --------------------------------------------------------------------- The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. That one little victory, that's all she needs! Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:13:53 +0100 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc Sorry about the politics, Catherine, you ARE right, but some things I can't resist. Just wondering, as someone who is not American ---- it seems interesting that so many people on this list have already decided that they will vote for a candidate to the right of their own believes/politics, because of electability. I have friends in the States who are in those parts of the Left that are outside of the Democratic Party, work in the Greens or other independent groups.......they say that most of the activists for democratic candidates are in fact closest, politically, to Kucinich, even Nader, but support a right wing candidate in an effort to make sure a candidate even more to the right is elected. But WHAT if everyone who agrees with Kucinich say 80% would vote for him, instead of for some candidate to his political right? he is in many ways perfect.....to the left of Dean but without the populism and the big mouth, with the kindness of Edwards.... Moreover -- what if everyone who agreed with the Greens, more or less, would have voted for Nader in the previous elections? Sure, Bush would have won, but you would also finally have had a viable third party in your country.......surely you'll agree the polical arena in the States could use some changes........ paul -- in the netherlands - --------------------------------------------------------------------- The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. That one little victory, that's all she needs! Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:41:06 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: music question NJC Im with you in relation to Ani, Bob. My appreciation of her music only came about in the last couple of years (and very slowly!) She is certainly doing her own thing, and whether or not we all like that all the time is quite irrelevant to the issue. She is a talented songwriter and singer using her talent in an original way that honours her influences without retreading well known ground. As i said before, my only problem is how *short* her set was when she played in Dublin last year (that was an interesting night in a number of ways; i went to that gig on the whim of my partners friend- i had never really spent time with that group of people without my partner so it was certainly a night to remember!) Don't know who Death Cab for Cutie are. Details please sir? And what exactly is the Let's Sing Out video? and Xm radio? You got me intrigued Bob! GARRET np- the noise of bulider's trying to knock through a wall thirty feet from where im sitting. Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > **"what has personally been the most > exciting/important music related *anything* since start of 2000 for you?". > ** > > Well, that was when I discovered Ani Difranco, and she's gotten me as excited > > as I've been about music in a while. And in the band category, it would be > Death Cab For Cutie. I just really like their sound and I like they way Ben > > Gibbard writes. > > XM radio - that's very exciting to me. > > In the world of Joni, watching the "Let's Sing Out" video was very exciting > > for me - like going back in time. > > What excitement lies around the corner? Only time will tell. > > Bob > > NP: Coldplay, "Yellow" > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:52:37 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc --- Paul Mepschen wrote: > Sorry about the politics, Catherine, you ARE right, > but some things I can't > resist. Hey, no problem. I'm not totally averse to political discussion - it's when it gets into the "I'm-right- you're-wrong-and-here's-a-long-post-to-prove-it" thing that I object. > Just wondering, as someone who is not American ---- > it seems interesting that > so many people on this list have already decided > that they will vote for a > candidate to the right of their own > believes/politics, because of > electability. This is a sad fact of life and not just in the USA. To begin with, we often choose people who "look" and "sound" good. There may be nothing behind the facade at all, but if the guy (and let's face it, it's almost always a guy) looks and sounds good on TV, then he must be good, right? And then, I know a lot of people who have joined a political party that is the opposite of the one they really support - in order to get someone in as leader of that party who is either the least unpalatable of the lot; or who is so far out there that they figure he hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of winning, so then the party you really support WILL win. Or, when you go to vote, you may want candidate A, but you're afraid B will win, and C seems to be running second to A, so you vote for C to take votes away from A - but you really want B. It's pretty stupid - strategic voting. This would work if everyone did it and everyone thought the same way - so why not go for the one that most represents your own thoughts? The problem here is so often, there's NO ONE I really like and I often end up voting for the one that pisses me off the least, but I'm not really satisfied with that one either. But if you don't vote at all, then you're more or less saying that you don't care who wins, so you're abdicating your responsibility. Solution? Run for politics yourself! But then there's the little question of money - and it looks like you have to have it, or have big money behind you, to get anywhere. So ultimately power wins and integrity often has little to do with it. I agree with you that the USA needs a third party that will stick around. As an "alien", I don't see how the US can do it with only two parties. Somehow three or more seems to put a little more balance into the works - - even if the third party only has a few seats, they almost act as a watchdog or conscience for the others and serve as a reminder that there are *other* points of view out there. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:27:30 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: modulations, etc. - Amelia Technical content - I posted this to the list on Sunday, but it never got in for some reason (though Marian received a copy and replied to it to the list). So, I am re-trying. Bobsart I know I am late to this, and I have not read much since Marian posted this 5 days ago, but Marian's notation made me think: am bm vi iii/V six white vapor trails across the could also be written am bm ii/V iii/V six white vapor trails across the suggesting that we are sort of inside of the key of G for the moment. However, I think Marian is right that this is completely in the key of C. On the guitar, these two chords are played as A minor and B minor inversions (with the minor third played on the top end of the chord), with a GC drone added in the middle of them for color. To me, that GC drone suggests that we are still in the key of C (not in the key of G), since the standard drone, I think, is the tonic and its fifth. Maybe it is by keeping that drone in there that Joni keeps us anchored in C, even though the chords themselves might seem to suggest we have modulated - or "traveled" ? - into G. I would love to hear someone knowledgable discuss this, either on list or off list. By the way, ignoring the susp's and 7'ths and 9'ths is a bit tough - for example, the two chords noted above are hardly A minor and B minor. If the guitar notes are played on the piano, they are AEGAC ( an Am7 - or C6 - inversion) and then BF#GBCD ( a Bm inversion, with a GC drone). Try playing these on the piano as chords (rather than as arpeggio picks) to appreciate the stew that Joni makes of these notes. If Joni had done this as a piano piece, I bet she would have played them as C/A and Gsus4/B into G/B (where the A bass shown above would be played as a modal arpeggio of AEAEAEAE and the B bass would be BF#BF#BF# in her usual style). This then leads into G/C and C/C. In terms of 'root chords', I think that by playing what I think the root chords are on the piano with right hand only, one can get the sense of the guts of the song (and that it pretty much stays rooted in C), while by later adding the rest of the notes, one can better see what Joni adds to color her basic root chords. For example, play these chords right hand only: Intro C F (the D minor is a color chord, so just play the C and the F) . Then Fsus4 then G Gsus4 G Bd Bdsus4 Bd C (later add the A/E bass for the minor color) Gsus4 G G C C Bm Bm Am G F Fsus4 F Fsus4 F then back into the intro C F. The Bd chord (the IV/IV as Marian puts it) is a slightly odd chord in the key of C, but one sees it from time to time. For example, in the Beatles' (Lennon's) You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, we get similar chord structures. The song - played in G on the guitar - has the chords G Dsus4 F G C F C then G Dsus4 F G C F C D Dsus4 D into a chorus of G C Dsus4 D Dadd2 D etc. Clearly in the key of G, yet we see an F chord appear in the main verses. Similarly, the Bm in Amelia is the relative minor of G (the V in the key of C), and is found in countless songs in the key of C. Gotta go for now. Fascinating song. Beautiful color tones. Warm chord structure. Bobsart PS - writing today (Thursday, 1/29) I note that Lloyd Whitesell, in his analytical tome recently linked on the Jmdl, lists Amelia's "harmonic category" as "polytonal", with tone centers alternating between F and G. Maybe he can help us analyze this ? I'm not sure what this means, but I sit humbled in my abject ignorance. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have the Hejira songbook ? Not that it matters, but what key was the song "written in" in the songbook ? (I have a feeling that the written key is not much more than that - a notation to help one read and play the music, which is normally related to the piece's melodic and harmonic structure ?) HELP ME !! http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1056 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:36:49 EST From: PhydeauxVvvvV1@aol.com Subject: Re: music question NJC Garret, Thanks for the nice note. I really enjoy playing at home, for my children or when I just have a little time to myself and also when I'm having a bad day. I guess there are times for me that playing is almost therapy or a "spiritual/emotional" release. I love to play and I love to hear others play. All that you said seems to ring true. I grew up and a non musical family and playing an instrument was very obscure and not encouraged in anyway. Fortunately my uncle played and came to stay with us a short time when he was a teen and I was a tot. Later I stayed with him a short time and that is when I started to play. Thanks for the good words and the encouragement. John G When you're lovers in a dangerous time sometimes you're made to feel as if your love's a crime but nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight - ---- Bruce Cockburn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:38:43 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Whitesell - author of the Joni dissertation Lloyd Whitesell, Ph.D. State University of New York (Stony Brook) Lloyd Whitesell received his PhD in Music History from the State University of New York at Stony Brook (1993); his dissertation explored important images of identity in the dramatic and vocal works of Benjamin Britten. His musical training also included studies in piano and vocal accompaniment at the Peabody Conservatory, the Mozarteum Akademie, the University of Minnesota, and the Minnesota Opera. He has published articles on Joni Mitchell, Charles Ives, Maurice Ravel, minimalism, and modern tonalities. An essay collection he has coedited, entitled _Queer Episodes in Music and Modern Identity_, is forthcoming from the University of Illinois Press in 2002. He served for three years as editor of the newsletter for the Gay & Lesbian Study Group of the American Musicological Society. Further research interests include Clara and Robert Schumann, film music, modernist culture, neo-Romanticism, and theories of the audience. http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~whitesell/ Now at McGill University, it seems. Maybe I'll write Assistant Professor Department of Theory (Music) Internal appointment to tenure-track on August 1st, 2002 b" BA summa cum laude (Music and German Literature), University of Minnesota, 1982 b" MA (Music History), State University of New York at Stony Brook, 1987 b" PhD (Music History), State University of New York at Stony Brook, 1993 EXPERTISE: the construction of indentity in the music of Benjamin Britten ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:36:13 -0500 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: anybody but Bush njc >From: "Marianne Rizzo" >Reply-To: "Marianne Rizzo" >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: anybody but Bush njc >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:04:53 -0500 > >When I say "anybody." > >I don't mean a republican. > >Marianne > I couln't agree more!!! _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:55:59 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Kucinich njc Debra sez: > Norman Pennington, as the (understudy during Kakki's absence) rep for the Repubs (my add in parens), wrote: > > > > Yup...but our depth is exceeded by all y'all's sense of humor. > > Oh, you're so right about that... the Dems' sense of humor IS greater > than the "our" depth! I am amazed that we are in such agreement on > that, Buck. :-) > > P.S. I'll bet you didn't mean to say what you wrote... too bad, > sweetpea, I'm stickin' with it. > Oh, I meant it, Debra! I'm always amazed at the Dems sense of humor in those rare times I actually SEE it (Al Franken and Michael Moore aside...those guys are professional agitators using humor as their delivery system). And there's probably other areas where we agree, politics excepted, of course! Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:40:03 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: (NJC) The "Real" World Lori just couldn't resist, saying: > > There's just SOMETHING about that Real World... > > ... which seems to have little to do with Bush's World, where it's > justifiable to go to war against a people whose leader "wanted" to > build WMDs and "would have" built them if those pesky economic > sanctions had only been lifted ... > > ... but who, apparently, never did build those WMDs afterall. > Did you watch Kay testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday on C-SPAN? C-SPAN has been replaying the testimony frequently...it's good stuff. Kay stated Bush made the correct decision (to go to war), **based upon the available intelligence.** He also noted that all the foreign intelligence services arrived at the same conclusions. Kay's testimony was remarkably frank...he had issues with both the Repubs and the Dems. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20... > > And are the Iraqis really better off now? So many are unemployed, > homeless, hungry. We're standing in the way of their free elections. > Car bombs are going off nearly everyday, and people there are > terrified. They have no control and no say. > Yes, the Iraqis really ARE better off. There is no secret police, no more torture, a burgeoning free press, and the opportunity for the "oppositition" (e.g., the Shiite mullahs) to voice their objections and organize public demonstrations. I believe "homeless and hungry" might be a bit of hyperbole, Lori. And, we are categorically NOT standing in the way of free elections. There are no systems in place to guarantee free elections and prevent fraud...systems like a voter registration process, a census to guarantee true representation, or a constitution. All of these issues are being addressed. To use a frequently raised parallel, just how long was it before there were free elections in Grmany following WW II? And the analogy isn't misplaced. > Let's face it. The U.S. fucked up. If we get out of this without > pissing off the entire Arab world, we should count ourselves lucky. > We most certainly did NOT fuck up. The entire Arab world is chronically pissed off. We cannot change that immediately. Some good background is in "What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East," by Bernard Lewis. What we CAN do, and ARE doing, is to try and introduce democracy into this part of the world. If we are successful in doing this the Arab world will be a much better place and the seeds of terrorism will cease to germinate. What scares the Hell out of me is our national propensity (of late) for starting something and failing to finish. The amount and intensity of dissent to our government's policies and initiatives is absolutely scary...particularly the alternatives pushed by Dean and Kucinich ("Get out NOW!")..because it leads me to believe we as a people are too short-sighted to see the effort through. Failure, in this case, is TRULY not an option! > P.S. - I love you, Buck! : ) And I love you, too, Lori. You're among a small handfull of liberal friends with whom I can discuss sensitive issues without the discussion devolving into emotional exchanges. Stay as you are, Girl!! Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:56:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Kucinich njc, now Michael Moore **(Al Franken and Michael Moore aside...those guys are professional agitators using humor as their delivery system). ** I've read Moore's first 2 books and am working on the 3rd. He's DEFINITELY not a Dem, he refers to both parties with the same disgust and states that Bush has just continued the policies of Clinton, and has just been more overt about the damage he's doing. He supported Nader in the last election and strongly favors the creation of a viable third party. Like Ani says, the choice is between Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dumber, the Republicrats & The Democans. This is not to say that I agree with that concept, just trying to clarify what Moore believes. You're correct in calling him an agitator, and thank God for that. When a country is as apathetic and ignorant as ours has become, when flag-waving constitutes action, we need all the agitating we can get! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:58:50 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc Catherine and Paul discussed: > > I agree with you that the USA needs a third party that > will stick around. As an "alien", I don't see how the > US can do it with only two parties. Somehow three or > more seems to put a little more balance into the works > - even if the third party only has a few seats, they > almost act as a watchdog or conscience for the others > and serve as a reminder that there are *other* points > of view out there. > Speaking strictly for myself, I believe the majority of Americans are not willing to fix something that works and has worked pretty damned well for the past 225 years or so. Third Parties (or more) work reasonably well in parlimentary systems, Italy aside. The Italians have had something like, oh, 1,735 governments (and for those of you who tend to take me all-too-literally, I'm exaggerating) since Big Bang II because no one party could achieve a majority and actually govern. The result? Dissolve the Assembly/Parliament and call new elections. This is the Achilles heel of a multi-party system. Coalition governments (the result of a fragmented electorate) can have no strategic focus because no one vision predominates. As for our most recent foray into Third Parties, the Dems are STILL pissed at Nader for costing Gore the 2000 election. Thank GOD for Ralph!! Best Regards, bp...donning my flame-retardant underware in anticipation of the Nader/Gore response... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:14:07 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Kucinich njc, now Michael Moore Well said, Bob. I read "Roger and Me" becuase I was working for EDS (a subsidiary of GM, at the time) and living in Detroit when the book came out. I found the book entertaining/somewhat enlightening, and I mean that. I find his latest POV and efforts to be just this side of demogogary. Still, as a leading voice in the opposition, I will continue to listen to Moore (disapprovingly). So....why is Moore supporting Clark this time around? Best Regards, bp Bob sez: I've read Moore's first 2 books and am working on the 3rd. He's DEFINITELY not a Dem, he refers to both parties with the same disgust and states that Bush has just continued the policies of Clinton, and has just been more overt about the damage he's doing. He supported Nader in the last election and strongly favors the creation of a viable third party. Like Ani says, the choice is between Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dumber, the Republicrats & The Democans. This is not to say that I agree with that concept, just trying to clarify what Moore believes. You're correct in calling him an agitator, and thank God for that. When a country is as apathetic and ignorant as ours has become, when flag-waving constitutes action, we need all the agitating we can get! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:20:49 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: Kucinich njc, now Michael Moore NJC **So....why is Moore supporting Clark this time around?** Well, in a nutshell he realizes that the over-riding all-important end right now is to get Bush OUT, parties be damned. In the absence of a viable 3rd party, Clark is his fave among the Dems. More details at www.michaelmoore.com Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:31:01 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: music question NJC **Don't know who Death Cab for Cutie are. Details please sir?** They're an indie band from the Seattle area (Bellingham, WA). Ben Gibbard and Chris Walla write most of their stuff, and musically their songs have very engaging melodies & rhythms, and lyrically he writes in complete sentences as opposed to choppy fragments, and uses unique metaphors and phrases instead of the same ol' tired cliches. There are some mp3's available at: http://www.barsuk.com/web.cgi?dcfc&dcfcmp3s I can drone on and on, but let your ears be the judge. **And what exactly is the Let's Sing Out video? You should have come to Jonifest, and I don't wanna hear any lame-ass excuses! :~D It was some CBC video, dug up by Doug Meek who shared it with us. Joni's appearances on the Oscar Brand folk TV show "Let's Sing Out", in 1965/66, with Joni doing many wonderful early songs of her own, some interesting covers, and some duets as well. Must-see TV! **and Xm radio? Jimmy usually fields this one. but since he is on a cruise, probably soaking in a hot tub with a chilly umbrella drink in his hand, I'll do my best. It's satellite digital radio, offering up a multitude of choices with a minimum of commercials. You have to buy the gear, at about $100, and subscribe to the service, which is about $10 a month. Hope that helps - I don't have one, but I get to listen to the one they have at the gym. Pretty cool. Options rule. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:26:11 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: music question NJC I'll certainly put them on my list; they sound like something i may like. I'll try to check out the MP3's and see! Thanks for the info:-) GARRET Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > **Don't know who Death Cab for Cutie are. Details please sir?** > > They're an indie band from the Seattle area (Bellingham, WA). Ben Gibbard and > > Chris Walla write most of their stuff, and musically their songs have very > engaging melodies & rhythms, and lyrically he writes in complete sentences as > > opposed to choppy fragments, and uses unique metaphors and phrases instead of > > the same ol' tired cliches. There are some mp3's available at: > > http://www.barsuk.com/web.cgi?dcfc&dcfcmp3s > > I can drone on and on, but let your ears be the judge. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:56:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: music question NJC >i was thinking along the lines of "what has personally been the most exciting/important music related *anything* since start of 2000 for you?". < She's been around longer but I discovered Patty Griffin in 2000...she is the best singer songwriter out there today imho... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:56:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Presidential Match - NJC Jerry on Lieberman: >I don't agree with all of his views, but I think he has been honest and straight up about them.< Everyone who is interviewed seems to respect him...unless of course that is sympathy for someone who is loosing the race... I thought it odd that he felt he was in a tie for third in the new hampshire primary when the numbers on the screen showed that he was clearly not...fuzzy math? Fred >Now it looks like Kerry has the mojo, and that's fine with me. I saw his interview with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes: he's smart, articulate, Lincolnesque, and he's a vet with badges. He really does come across as "presidential." < I agree, that was a great interview & had me in tears (before he got choked up)... I also feel he has integrity (he went to nam when most rich man's sons did not & he was an activist against the war when he returned) Lori >Not only that, he has (imo) a very "presidential" voice. This is just as shallow as voting based on how a guy looks, but honestly, the way someone carries him/herself and the way they speak can sway a voter.< Yes I agree but I think his voice & demeanor are a result of his intelligence. I was concerned that his voice might be a turn off to folks who want a 'regular guy', not someone who carries himself as a blueblood politician. I have a difficult time listening to Dean as he reminds me of some surfer dude or maybe a weight lifter. Edwards keeps saying he will absolutely not go for vice president but I guess that is typical politician speak (for right now he has to believe he can win the dem nomination)- I enjoy his interviews as he is positive & I love the way he says 'hope' which he says a lot... Kucinich gets made fun of a lot...his hair or his height or whatever...its too bad really because his message & real life experience is quite extraordinary for a politician... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:59:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: The "Real" World NJC Mike noted: > Lori asked >> And how many more Americans will have to die there before we say >> ENOUGH? > My 'problem' with Lori's question is that it is another example of > the small picture. Mike, you're absolutely correct. I thought about what I'd written during my drive home last night, and again this morning. I would like to apologize to everyone for my small-mindedness. What I should have written is: "How many more (people) will have to die before we (all) say ENOUGH?" Thanks for pointing out my error, Mike. Peace, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:05:14 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: (NJC) The "Real" World Buck asked: > Did you watch Kay testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee > yesterday on C-SPAN? Unfortunately no, I did not, but I did hear on NPR that Kay made the remark you referenced. > What scares the Hell out of me is our national propensity (of late) > for starting something and failing to finish. The amount and > intensity of dissent to our government's policies and initiatives is > absolutely scary...particularly the alternatives pushed by Dean and > Kucinich ("Get out NOW!")..because it leads me to believe we as a > people are too short-sighted to see the effort through. Failure, in > this case, is TRULY not an option! About this, my friend, you and I agree. Although I don't agree with the reasons for starting the war and I don't think I'll be forgiving of the lousy intelligence or Bush using it as an excuse, we can't just pull out now. This time around in particular, we really must finish what we've started. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:29:33 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: Presidential Match - NJC - Now Kerry's Looks Kate, Fred, and Lori on Kerry's Looks: > he's smart, articulate, > Lincolnesque, and he's a vet with badges. He really does come across as > "presidential." < > > > > Lori >Not only that, he has (imo) a very "presidential" voice. This is > just > as shallow as voting based on how a guy looks, but honestly, the way > someone carries him/herself and the way they speak can sway a voter.< > > Kate > Yes I agree but I think his voice & demeanor are a result of his > intelligence. I was concerned that his voice might be a turn off to > folks who want a 'regular guy', not someone who carries himself as a > blueblood politician. > Interestingly enough, MS-NBC JUST ran a segment on Kerry's looks, botox accusations, hair coloring, yadda, yadda, yadda. They showed "before and after" pics...as if I really cared about this silly sh*t. Our politics are too much like "Entertainment Tonight" and embarrass the Hell out of me sometimes. bp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:49:55 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Song Poems NJC Wow thanks Paul! I like these - they have a very personal feel to them. I've heard her name a few times but I really should check out one of her CD's sometime. NP: Sweet Dreams (not as good re-recording-what's with all those drums!) Tori Amos * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mepschen" To: Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: Song Poems sjc > I absolutely love love love Dar Williams, perhaps even more than Joni. Their > writing is very different - much of Joni's work is very close to classic > poetry, dar's work belongs more to the folk songwriting tradition, but there > is some absolutely fantastic stuff out there. See www.darwilliams.net if you > wanne see more lyrics (under ): > > dar williams - oh canada girls > http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/greenworld/ocanadagirls.html > > dar williams - mark rothko song > http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/honestyroom/markrothkosong.html > > dar williams - southern california wants to be western new york > http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/southerncaliforniawantsto b > ewesternnewyork.html > > dar williams - Pompeii > http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/thiswaspompeii.html > > dar williams - the ocean > http://members.limitless.org/%7Edel/dar/mortalcity/ocean.html > > My favorite Joni poems are one Hejira and Don Juan -- I also love toread the > early stuff without listening to it, but the poetry on these two albums is > something else. > > paul > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. > But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. > That one little victory, that's all she needs! > Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:30:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Whitesell - author of the Joni dissertation wow, bob!!!! i'd give anything to read his papers! britten, joni, ravel, ives. all my favorite people! thanks for the tip. wally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:16:19 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc PC Paul Mepschen wrote: > > Just wondering, as someone who is not American ---- it seems interesting that > so many people on this list have already decided that they will vote for a > candidate to the right of their own believes/politics, because of > electability. I have friends in the States who are in those parts of the Left > that are outside of the Democratic Party, work in the Greens or other > independent groups.......they say that most of the activists for democratic > candidates are in fact closest, politically, to Kucinich, even Nader, but > support a right wing candidate in an effort to make sure a candidate even more > to the right is elected. > > But WHAT if everyone who agrees with Kucinich say 80% would vote for him, > instead of for some candidate to his political right? Good observations/questions, Paul. I take issue right away with your friends' characterization of people such as Sharpton, Kerry, Dean, or Edwards as "right wing." If they were, they'd agree with Bush on most issues instead of being opposed to him. But, the political spectrum can be viewed as relative to one's own place on it, so I can understand how your far left wing friends would see those Democrats as being conservative. They ARE more conservative than your friends are. I don't agree, though, that those candidates are "right wing." From the survey here, it looks like Kucinich would get lots of votes, but most people in this country vote toward the middle. That's why Bush presented himself as Mr. Moderate in the last election. He got a lot of votes by acting like a middle of the road good guy, and he'll probably try to do that again in the upcoming election, except now he has a public record that shows otherwise. He is an extreme conservative, FAR to the right, and because of that the "middle" here now tends toward the right also in order to get anything at all accomplished. No one can exist in isolation in this political system, which is why people at the farthest extremes (these days, especially the far left) are out in the cold. They can influence the dialogue, insist on certain issues being discussed, but probably never be in office themselves. My view is, what does it matter if I agree with someone 100% if he's teaching college courses somewhere? I'd much rather vote for someone I can agree with on most issues if it means they'll actually get into office and have some power to affect our lives in positive ways. > Moreover -- what if everyone who agreed with the Greens, more or less, would > have voted for Nader in the previous elections? I think the people who agreed with the Greens in the last election DID vote for them. The Greens make a lot of noise, which extremists tend to do, so it seems like there are lots of "Green" people here, but, relatively speaking, there are very few. And they've completely blown away any interest I had in them. I have no respect anymore for the Greens or Nader because of what happened in the last election. Everyone knew the 2000 election would be squeaky close (as will this year's election), and Nader put his personal agenda first. If Nader couldn't see that there was any difference between the far right agenda of Bush and the policies of the Clinton/Gore administration (on the environment alone!!!!), then he is so stupid I don't want him anywhere around. The Greens needed a "name" candidate, and Nader needed a party to run under, and they joined up. If that's not a corruption of their supposed "idealism" I don't what is. They are on my sh*tlist for all time. Yeah, I am still pissed about that, obviously. So where is Ross Perot when we need him? I always liked that guy. :-) Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:48:51 +0000 From: fauchja@comcast.net Subject: Kucinich NJC All of this brouhaha about Kucinich reminds me of a song released in the late 70's by a Cleveland Ohio folk singer named Alex Bevan called Have Another Laugh on Cleveland Blooze. It was all about Cleveland's financial crisis overseen by its then mayor, Dennis. Any way, Alex refers to the mayor as "Dennis the Kucinich the people's mayor to the finich!" I see him campaigning on TV or hear him on the radio, and that appellation pops into my head. Fauchja - -- GUITAR GUY EXTRAORDINAIRE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:16:41 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc PC Debra sez: > So where is Ross Perot when we need him? I always liked that guy. :-) C'mon, Debra...you're just *wishing* for a re-run of '92 when Perot "Naderized" Bush 41! ;-) Ross was a GREAT boss, but a verifiable FLAKE when it came to politics... Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:43:15 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: kucinich (sorry catherine) njc PC Norman Pennington wrote: > > C'mon, Debra...you're just *wishing* for a re-run of '92 when Perot > "Naderized" Bush 41! ;-) YES! Wouldn't that be great? :-) > Ross was a GREAT boss, but a verifiable FLAKE when it came to politics... Since he was taking votes away from Bush I, he was my kinda guy... Gee, I miss him. Debra Shea P.S. And I miss Dana Carvey doing impressions of him too! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:04:35 -0800 From: Magic Subject: NJC Re: Cath's Surresonant Self-intro, part 2 - NJC Like I said, "you guessed me out". Emphasis on the word "out". But before I disappear again for the next 5 years, I need to make a few corrections to my previous posts: 1) "The Professor and the Madman -- A tale of murder, insanity, and the making of the Oxford English Dictionary" by Simon Winchester is about A Beautiful Mind. SIQUOMB, isn't she? In the book, there is some fair retelling of the actual delusions of the paranoid, so I don't fault the author too too much for taking advantage of illness and other sources -- or should I? You all have suffered from burning bushes and legal tablets for so long, perhaps it's only "fair". But I draw the line at Madonna being dismissive of fairy tales, since I Had A King named Bush "for hevvin's sake"! Prayers and aspirations and hopes *may* be types of delusions, but who am I to tell someone else how to think? 2) I have been changed and healed by Cath, whom I met here, and we've lived together now 6+ years. So Cath is my newly adopted netnym, as I tried, in my way, to be free. -- Leonard Cohen. Joni said, not too long ago on my TV, 'If you chase away the demons, the angels go too.' I can vouch for that view, so I can vouch for her. Party people, she may very well be suffering, and it takes one to know one. Let it be, 'cause surely you touched mine! And part of you flew out of me in these curves and lines and time'. You were all part of my healing, though I suffer still but much, much less. 3) I wrote [(a = b) = a * b] at one point, w/o parens. That is apparently only true for {a, b} = {0, 0} and {2, 2} for [a + b = a * b], as I meant to type. I am so bold as to think I can destroy all logic with this sort of nonsense, but who am I to tell you how to think? 4) Venus On A Half Shell was the walrus, the Surgin' Virgin, LVdH. I believe she was in search of help for her gynd, for kindness. That's what I see in her eyes, Mr. Botticelli. I guided her towards Afghynistan, being a male masochist myself. The CIA now makes war=dreams there, instead of love? I amy vote for Kucinich-The-Contrarian because his notion of Republic coincides well with mine. I delusively prophesy (sp?) that Bush will suffer from burns in the near future, just as Clinton suffered from Love-Urge. 5) "Le Vierge du Houle! So this is where you sit! and type! The infamous Le Vierge!" Cath joked upon arrival here. Shall we put it to a vote? If so, please first look up the words "Eleatic" (a philosophy of XenoPHANES and Parmenides in 6th and 5th C's B.C.), "eidetic", and "eidolon" (from Greek for phantom, form, shape .. and "idea"?) ... surely one or more of them relate to formal elections. It's just amazing how much Greek that Mars thingy is still posting to this (war-torn) List? And=yet I still work to destroy/subsume Hegelian dialectics: Let (x+1)*(x-1) describe a system of vibration; Let (x+1)*(x-1) = x^2 - 1, eg. if x=8, then 9*7=63= 8^2 -1 = 64-1 = 63. Let a given trigram of the Yi/I Ching = 1 or 1 event. Let x^2 = the form of a trigram rotated 90 degrees; Pattern=Area=Idea. Let the Vibrational Net of [Perception --> Conception] be rotated trigrams, i.e. neural knots. Then one rotation is one event and x^2 - (1 event) is vibrational. Let RESONANCE be spheroidal vibration. Let neurons be spheroidal. Since, for [a+b = a*b], a= b/(b-1) and b= a/(a-1), then the equated operators of PLUS and TIMES relate partially vibratory variables in the denominator(s). For a = 64, b = 64/63. [(64 + 64/63) = (64 * 64/63)]. Distance = Area. Area=x^2. For e=mc^2, we have e=mx^2, and RESONANCE is RADIANT. In the light-instant of a thought-formation, 'immutable being is the only knowable reality' - XenoPHANES - 'and change is the subject of mere opinion'. At such a point, there is no tao-flow-turning, as Distance = Area = Volume = Realization (held, i.e. cathected). Ergo, no dialec]ic. So Joni's "friend of spirit" could not have emerged from paranirvana excep] via delusion, i.e. maya=change, so Joni=1. Now let Joni = Blue. Or "time and changes touching" or "time and change is tau + ching". But "or" = "and" and "and" = "but". In each delusional re-interpretation of the verse, eg. "love is touching shoals", the pattern-recognition algorithm resets 1 to n, and ((x+n)*(x-n))+1 = Area and so on to volume, and so on to some quanta that's "touchable". The Tao Te Ching is the Tao Touching is the Tao Teaching, where "tao"="it" backwards. Delusion is a logic, per Systems Theory, per Bucky Fuller. Destruction is delusion is devotion. And that is why I hardly accept the concept of "equality" anymore, or parsing what "is" is. Let "is" = "it" + "it" + "it" ... etc. Can your inner ear equate "s" and "t"? Cogito ergo zoom, incognito. Sink = Think = Deep + muddy well. Subsume = sub-Zoom. The root will set you free. (sic)=thick. Love=Ovel, Chris(t)opher. P.S. I fully expect to be ignored, such as may be your bliss, as was mine. I have expanded the formulas for resonance and radiance, by neutralizing the operators, after substituting them freely. Let Math=Humor. By destroying Accounting and Science and Logic, Greeks and pseudo-Democracy will fall away. But by ignoring them, the masses and aristocracies will beg to be educated. People do not care for the (Greek) roots of English, etc., which makes my job all the easier. "My name is called Disturbance=Turbulent Blue." If you wear a turban, go easy on your many wives, for Heaven's Sake. If, like Osama bin laden, you have 50 kids, tend to them before attending me. If, like me, you seek to determine the area of a rotating oval, know that I tender that a curve is a tender thing; an oval is (not) a mirror clock. So an emir is (not) a mere click/clique. "Lay down your arms." --Joni Mitchell. The thickening of thinking is simply "a" "+" "b", or for many neurons, a*b. When you lay down your radii and/or words from your central point, in effect you act to form a fact or facts. But time "t" or "tau" is the medium of transmission. Thus, Time itself is Mind. Energy is Mind. So Time=Energy. So mass m can tend to zero, as e approaches c^2. Less mass=more TimeEnergyMind. XenoPHANES refuted; proved. So, I prophesy there will be no election. Given that Elea is in Italy, not Greece, you shall know Anderson is not Alexandria, that Leviticus and Levi are not Lowell, Mass., profit-center of civil war: Love is not Law, is not Commandment #1. Know that Chrystophyr has read the gold+pyramid of your shackled chakras and has lit the lotus. I am the flower that eats fire and the pyre that eats crystals. Spin = Spine minus e, where "-pin-" means "point". I have heard the stars sing to one another, joined in joys, as I was born to witness. Though they join stem-cells, we shall remove the LOGic from their eyes, as they destroy their own children. 'You are not a democracy and you deserve no election.' So said Demosthenes unto Delos; so say I unto you. Else, answer me, do your children vote? Your young? Your wives and old and infirm? Your votes are but slings and arrows of OUTness. Perception is Discriminatory is Discriminal, so Socrates was a critic. I'm outta here. --hypocrisy has a "y" on the end for very excellent reasons. Radii each have a radix; pi is an operation upon a diameter which creates an asymptotic circle ... its value is arbitrarii. The "S" at the end of "PHANES" is there for very excellent reasons.. though I know of no school that still teaches exac]ly why. Well. No guru, no path, no circle. Let "S" be the spirallic form of a diameter "D" partially spun by force pi. For [radius r = angle theta] = [Spiral "S"], the curve of DNA and galaxies, the tender curve can tend back to center or trace ever closer to a circle-form in these lines from time to time, where Out=In, Off=On, In=Out. Equalitii = Fallacii. Else, comparing any 2 things, are the odds better one will be greater, or the 2 will prove equal? When pi = d, pi^2 = d^2 = pi*d = c, or Area devolves to Distance c. Let "C" = 1/2 * "S" when my name cracks and creates ]he spirals of your mind-beauty-chrysalis; "when I fiind mii... golden wings and flii away ..." - Joan Roberta Anderson. "Imbue beauty. Destruct Structure." "If a curve has n points, then (linear-written) chords are curves." "Calligraphy Is Music; Typing Is A Ticking Clock." ... my spelling deformations attempt calligraphy for you ... Cathex(t)ion I apologize for the length. If I post again, it'll be brief. I suffer from mental priapism in that I use symbols to convey energies to your immutable being. Since my computer has now responded, I take it that it's deluded. My doctor seeks to make me sane and I seek to make him delusional -- it's only "fair" and "equitable" (sp?). Q: Is human comprehension Light Minus Time? He said, "Mind is inherent in DNA, though I can't explain how." I take that to mean my possybilities have prophesied accurately in part; I'm getting through, if ever so faintly. I am motile, like an ol' sperm whale! Did Moby Grape record "Listen My Friend", or is my mymory playing tricks on me? They taught us PLUS and TIMES in grades 3 and 4, right? Is that all the farther I've got? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #51 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)