From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #37 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 21 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 037 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Some are friendly,some are cutting...(njc) [rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.] Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis ["Marian Russell" ] Re: Some are friendly,some are cutting...(njc) ["kakki" ] birthday njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Beat the blues, njc [Chris Marshall ] Fw: birthday njc (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Fw: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Where ..oh where Is Jack??!! NJC ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: loving joni but not her music ["Kate Bennett" ] What do we all do for a living (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Fw: Re: [NortheastJonifest] birthday njc ["ron" ] Re: On inventing chords - Hejira analysis ["Marian Russell" ] Re: What do we all do for a living (NJC) ["Cynthia Vickery" ] birthday fairy NJC ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: back in the JMDL world NJC ["Lori Fye" ] (NJC) Here's a game you can play tonight ... ["Lori Fye" ] RE: Beat the blues, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Coping with depression: Tips from JMDLers ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis [Dflahm@aol.com] Last call for new Jonifest DVD orders!! [AsharaProducLLC@aol.com] Re: [NortheastJonifest] birthday njc [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Joni for Kids [Catherine McKay ] Joni mention on Who Wants to be a Millionaire [PassScribe@aol.com] RE: Some are friendly,some are cutting... ["Robert Argento" Are we are hard-wired for bigotry? Yes, we are. As Joni herself once said, no furry human animal wants to have less than what he/she did before. From the 14th century (and before) to the Third Reich (and after), there has been a societal balance - perilous, but manageable - only during times of economic prosperity. Take away prosperity and introduce uncertainty, and society has always required - and appointed - a scapegoat. It's not so much that we're hard-wired for bigotry, it's that we're hard-wired for maintaining our "lifestyles." Many people have said that societies are judged by their art and their social reform programs. True, true, but always with the 20/20 of hindsight (which, when all is said and done, is only another form of sight). During the 14th century, the Baroque and Classical eras, the Romantic 19th century, and the rebellious early 20th century, the vast majority of people were concerned primarily with self-preservation. Society was as banal, confused, contradictory, and chaotic as it is today. So, it isn't so much about being anti-anything. Bigotry originates - as it always has - from humans wanting to protect their possessions. Anyway, that's my take on the whole sorry situation. Cheers (as if ;-) Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 03:32:22 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis Howard was saying that Amelia had intro chords of dm going up to F and then moving into G, so using that as a basis: C is the tuning. I think that C is actually, in this case, also the root key or tonic. There are suggestions of other keys - the IV/IV Bb suggesting the key of F, the iii/V bm suggesting the key of G, but the basic key is C. The chord progressions (minus notation for sus, 7ths, 9ths, etc.) are: Intro: C dm em F Bb F Bb F I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV C dm em F Bb F Bb F I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV G C G V I V I was driving a- cross the burning desert when I Bb Eb Bb IV/IV IV/IV/IV IV/IV spotted six jet planes leaving am bm vi iii/V six white vapor trails across the G C V I bleak ter- rain C I It was the hexagram of the bm iii/V heavens it was the G am V vi strings of my gui- tar am G vi V F IV Amelia Bb IV/IV it was just a false a - F Bb F C dm em F IV IV/IV IV I ii iii IV larm All of these chords fit into the key of C. Maybe somebody else out there with a knowledge of music theory would have a different take on this. If so, please contribute. In this particular case, the chord progressions *seem* to wander out of the key, but the key of the song doesn't shift to another key and continue there (modulation). The chord changes can be described within the key of C. I still maintain that in the guitar songs there is not ever deliberate modulation to another key. I don't mean this as a criticism of her music (we probably would not like her music as much as we do if modulation to other keys was a major thing), I'm just trying to say that the chord changes of the guitar songs are not as complicated or difficult to describe as they could be. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:02:02 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: what I do for a living / NAMM (njc) >>Finally, we drug ourselves over to the Daily Grill on Sunday before calling it a long weekend. << As a teacher of (British) English and a translator I am always interested in quirks of language, and especially when I see a version I haven't seen before of a familiar word. I have noticed recently on this list a few interesting (to me) past participles which appear to be standard in the US but non-standard (incorrect?) in British English. It wasn't enough to make a comment about it here but today I notice kakki's use of 'drug' (above) as a past tense of 'drag' - something I had never seen before. I can't remember what the other recent examples were but it's all very interesting. The first time I noticed this was on David Crosby's 'Lee Shore' when he talks about 'dove beneath my floating home'; in British English this would almost always be 'dived'. Or maybe what kakki meant was 'we drugged ourselves up at the Daily Grill' ;-) hehehe mike npimh - from here to Venezuela, nothing more to see-ee... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:34:59 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: what I do for a living / NAMM (njc) You're absolutely correct, Mike, it is incorrect and not proper English. And though I do not use drugs, I was kind of using the word as bad slang about how we felt at the time ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:57:50 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Some are friendly,some are cutting...(njc) I think you are both right. It can be about demonizing the "other" and it can be about someone wanting to protect their possessions (or maybe their reality). I think it can also be about wanting and not having, or being able to obtain, something someone else possesses. Fear, jealousy, greed and often plain old ignorance. Coincidently, Paz, Julius and I also had a few discussions last weekend about various forms of bigotry. It's almost like no one is immune from it and there will always be people who will find *something* to pick out about you to cut you down to their size, no matter how petty, unfair and undeserved, no matter how nice you may be, etc. I am grateful that Martin Luther King and others who worked with him took us all a giant leap forward and we can only hope those dreams continue to grow and evolve. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:00:37 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: what I do for a living / NAMM (njc) Hi Kakki, I wasn't suggesting it was incorrect, only that it was new for me, and because it was unknown I wasn't sure whether it was 'correct' or 'proper' (whatever that means) or standard US English or not. In the language business people tend not to use 'correct' or 'proper' to describe English usage, although I'm not convinced that 'standard' and 'non-standard' are any better. 'Drug' may (or may not) be used as a past tense of 'drag' in the US, I don't know. What I do know it that 'drug' as a past tense of (for example) 'sing' it is just plain 'wrong'. Mike > You're absolutely correct, Mike, it is incorrect and not proper English. > And though I do not use drugs, I was kind of using the word as bad slang > about how we felt at the time ;-) > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 02:15:15 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Kind of a drag (njc) Mike, It is incorrect here, but I have heard it used and I have used it at times in a slang way (and have always been sharply rebuked when saying it in my mother's presence ;-) I have noticed various types of improper English in different regions of the U.S. and think it's maybe a way to make language/speech more "local" and "ours." You should hear the pidgin English in Hawaii (my favorite regional kind of local speech) it's very charming and used informally by many who have been taught the Queen's English. There is some regional speech that sets my teeth on edge, though, like using "them" instead of "those, Weird about Crosby saying "dove" instead of "dived" - it didn't sound wrong to me - so maybe there are some variations actually becoming acceptable usage in some places. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:59:59 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: birthday njc today's alison's birthday. Alison E [alisone4@yahoo.com] wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:18:05 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Beat the blues, njc On 20 Jan 2004, at 5:47, Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Thanks to Chris Marshall for the idea. Remind me again - what did I do? :-) - --Chris Marshall (thinking he needs to take on board a whole pile of these suggestions...) chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:19:10 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: birthday njc (for AOL users) Wally says: today's alison's birthday. > Alison E [alisone4@yahoo.com] > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:21:15 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) (for AOL users) Wally says [remember, I'm only forwarding wally's posts since they don't make, strangely, their way to AOL users] i work as an applications consultant. my clients are people who want to apply to graduate university programs and phd's in the US, europe and canada. i help them create good application essays and position themselves competitively. i train them to beat the system and get fulbright scholarships and do effective interviews with the admissions committees and other big shots. > i also teach standardized admission exams (GRE, GMAT, LSAT, etc) -- especially quantitative skills and critical reasoning -- to potential applicants, but only during the first part of the year. > i teach english as a foreign language at advanced level and english usage for writers. > i edit material for publication in english and i do a lot of ghostwriting. i have also translated lots of material into english -- both fiction and non-fiction. i am currently translating a book on araucanian dialects and meta-discourse to be published by the university of texas, of all places. > i had very formal education -- i only finished high school. this year, at 43, i'll be going back to school! for the next five years i'll be studying to get a degree in clinical psychology. after that, i'll start my practice as a bug doctor and leave argentina. i'll probably move to canada or some nordic country when i'm 50. > > the joni content: i taught myself english listening to joni mitchell and using a dictionary and a grammar book. > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:40:31 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] birthday njc Happy Birthday Ali!!!! May you have a wonderful day! I am reminded of 2 years ago when you, I, Julius, Paz & Kakki spent your b-day in Anaheim during the NAMM convention! Wally, I love and miss the Birthday Fairy very much, he has been quite subdued lately... love db >>> wallykai@fibertel.com.ar 1/20/2004 6:59:59 AM >>> today's alison's birthday. Alison E [alisone4@yahoo.com] wally Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NortheastJonifest/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: NortheastJonifest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:51:00 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tamsin=20Lucas?= Subject: back in the JMDL world NJC Hi, not sure if anyone remembers me as I didn't post that often, but I left the list for a while but am now glad to be back (I'm using a different email now). Hope everyone is well. Tamsin - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:00:54 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: a question: JFCK (NJC) I said: >and what does NFCK mean? Bree said: >>Knowing you it doesn't all mean what I think it would mean. Probably >>something zany? What then? me again: Well love, you were right the first time! . . . My attempt at a joke. : - ) to help you figure it out: NFCK your strangers ps. my jokes are mostly funny only to me. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed net deals  comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:24:39 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Where ..oh where Is Jack??!! NJC JacK and I.. Susan too.. were Marianne's helpers secreting the rocks at the fest. Jack was a great neighbor and so fun..too. He almost lost his trousers to his knees hiding several of the rocks (boulders) in his pants while walking across the street. I don't believe he has posted since the fest? Just concerned and wondering about him..so I thought I'd ask. Does anyone know? Bree _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:52:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: JMDL Poll (list content only) I've created a poll that is mostly for the NJC folks, but the first set of questions (about a message board for trading) may be of interest to the only-Joni folks so Im making it available to everyone. Enter your vote today! The poll can be accessed at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piss-n-moan/surveys?id=11600827 If you are not already a member of the Piss-n-Moan Forum, you will have to join to vote (at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/piss-n-moan/) ... Or, if you really don't want to join the Forum, you can view the poll at http://lrfye.lunarpages.com/JMDL-poll.doc and then send me your preferences via private email to JMDL-poll@lrfye.lunarpages.com Thanks! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:22:55 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: loving joni but not her music Reading everyone's responses to this topic was quite interesting... I think that compared to most songwriters, Joni's lyrics are exceptional & a large part of what draws people to her work & so as a result there is lots of 'talk' about them as well as about other ideas which naturally occur as a result of so many intelligent minds gathering together... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:42:20 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: What do we all do for a living (NJC) Jennymac wrote: > Hi all. I don't know if this has been done but wouldn't it be fun to > see what we all do for a living and what our main hobby activity is > and how do we attribute either to Joni's influence (if we do). I'm an "administrator" for the "Washington DC" office of a large commercial real estate company (http://www.cresapartners.com). "Administrator" is a fancy word for secretary. To that end, I spend 90% of most days on a computer, creating covers and content and maps for presentations about office buildings, which I then print and bind. I use a variety of software programs including the usual MS Office stuff, plus MapPoint, MS Project, Corel Draw, Acrobat, etc. I also do hotel and restaurant arrangements for occasional events, answer the phones, and essentially cater to the needs of 6 principals (owners), 11 additional brokers, and 2 project managers. Thankfully there are 3 other admin people like me, and a marketing manager, to take care of all these folks! I put "Washington DC" in quotes because, while we have 3 physical offices in the DC metro area and we like to advertise our market that way, our main office is in Bethesda, Maryland, which is where I'm sitting as I type this. My main hobby is the JMDL, and of course Joni was the driving influence for that! I also piddle around with webpage design, and I enjoy working on cars (I'm currently in the middle of changing the head gasket on my Cavalier) and doing remodeling on my house (at present, Mary and I are replacing the sink and toilet in the master bedroom bath). And dat's about it from here ... Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:45:26 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Beat the blues, njc hi >>>>jim wrote >>>>Beat the blues, njc jim - ive really enjoyed the thread & thanks for being so diligent with keeping going!! id like to add my suggestion: get on a motorbike & ride so fast you *darent* think about anything else (in case you fall off!!!) - i prefer to do this offroad. ten minutes is all it takes to destress - from there on out its just pure pleasure!!!! ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:53:30 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Fw: Re: [NortheastJonifest] birthday njc hi unless im mistaken janis would have been celebrating yesterday - 19 january??? she would have been what - 60 or 61 years old?????? the world is a sadder place for losing her........ so how a about a special "comeback" tribute from the BF???? ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:58:41 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On inventing chords - Hejira analysis Hejira is even less complicated than Amelia. It's mostly I, IV, V. The intro chords are ii and III of the tonic. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:26:49 -0500 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: What do we all do for a living (NJC) I am Professor of Literature at Georgia Southern University, where I teach contemporary poetry and children's literature, and I write critcism & poetry. My main hobby is singing and playing guitar (which I've done since I was 8--I turned 49 this past Saturday). My picture in the JMDL gallery shows me playing dobro. I do perform in public (Savannah Folk Music Society, for instance), but after youthful delusions of stardom, I now proclaim proudly my amateur status (amateur as in for the love of it). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:34:14 -0500 From: "anon anon" Subject: RE: Some are friendly,some are cutting... >From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" >Reply-To: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" >To: "_JMDL" , >Subject: Some are friendly,some are cutting... >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:38:19 -0500 > >From: "anon anon" asked, > >Why would anyone be cutting at a party?> > > >That's a very light way to ask a very heavy question. Sociologically >speaking it's called "the Other". It's a bit like demonizing someone who's >different. The sad part is that almost all cultures have it. Think of >Belfast. Baghdad. The West Bank. Think of Detroit. And New Deli. And >the Outback. It's pandemic. > >Are we are hard-wired for bigotry? > >Neil Young asked us to >"Throw your weapons down. > Throw your hatred down. > Throw your hatred down. > Throw your hatred down. > Throw your hatred down. > Throw your hatred down." > >All the best, > >Jim there's nothing that makes me more angry then bigotry... _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:49:16 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: What do we all do for a living (NJC) lori wrote: <> now me: me, too, but at another smaller real estate company (http://www.danielcorp.com/). here's a picture of the building i work in: http://www.danielcorp.com/properties.asp?page=4&property_id=19&description=lease&s=officespace. unlike lori, who has 10 bazillion people pulling her in 10 bazillion directions, i just have 3 people pulling me in 10 bazillion directions. our jobs are eerily similar, and here's weird thing #1 - her company has an office *directly across the street from my office* here in birmingham, alabama. weird thing #2 - my company merged, in the '70s, with the company that bob muller works for, but we bought ourselves back out again in the '80s. recently i've (to make a long story short) basically traded jobs with another secretary here in the office, which gives me less accounting/financial reporting responsibility (woohooo!!) and more marketing responsibility, so i've been learning many new things recently, and i love that. prior to being a secretary here (i've been here 5 years, almost to the day), i'd been in retail for just over 20 years, mostly in department stores but i also managed one big-box chain and one small family-owned boutique. as for hobbies... who's got time for all that? i guess my most time-consuming "hobby" is my 11-yr-old daughter, margaret, a budding joni fan. (okay, maybe i overestimate my influence here, but she *loves* BYT (preferring joni's version over the counting crow's version, god bless her) and jungle line, but she hates all of mingus. more brainwashing, coming right up!) next? cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:52:53 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis I agree that Amelia can be thought of as being in C- (although, in determining a key, 99% of the time, the key is the same as the first chord, so; Dm, but close enough). But then, after listing the chords, you say: "All of these chords fit into the key of C" These chords do not: Bb, Eb, Bm. They contain the notes Bb, Eb, and F#, respectively, none of which are contained in the key of C. You said: "In this particular case, the chord progressions *seem* to wander out of the key, but the key of the song doesn't shift to another key and continue there (modulation)." If the classical definition of modulation is the complete change (and continuation) to a different key, then you are right, these could be considered accidentals. I was using the word "modulation" (as I understand it) to describe temporary diversions out of the tonic key. As such, I still maintain that most of her songs do this, going back to "Urge For Going". (I don't know what key the record is in; I play it in E, so the second chord is D-already out of the key of E. Then it goes A to G, G being outside the tonic key, too). Lahm or somebody with a more complete background in theory may correct me. To me, these songs and most of Joni's songs modulate. RR Marian Russell wrote: > Howard was saying that Amelia had intro chords of > dm going up to F and then moving into G, so using > that as a basis: > > C is the tuning. I think that C is actually, > in this case, also the root key or tonic. There are > suggestions of other keys - the IV/IV Bb suggesting > the key of F, the iii/V bm suggesting the key of G, > but the basic key is C. > > The chord progressions (minus notation for sus, 7ths, > 9ths, etc.) are: > > Intro: > C dm em F Bb F Bb F > I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV > C dm em F Bb F Bb F > I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV > > G C G > V I V > I was driving a- cross the burning desert when I > > Bb Eb Bb > IV/IV IV/IV/IV IV/IV > spotted six jet planes leaving > > am bm > vi iii/V > six white vapor trails across the > > G C > V I > bleak ter- rain > > C > I > It was the hexagram of the > > bm > iii/V > heavens it was the > > G am > V vi > strings of my gui- tar > > am G > vi V > > F > IV > Amelia > > Bb > IV/IV > it was just a false a - > > F Bb F C dm em F > IV IV/IV IV I ii iii IV > larm > > All of these chords fit into the key of C. > > Maybe somebody else out there with a knowledge of > music theory would have a different take on this. > If so, please contribute. > > In this particular case, the chord progressions *seem* to > wander out of the key, but the key of the song doesn't > shift to another key and continue there (modulation). > The chord changes can be described within the key of C. > > I still maintain that in the guitar songs there is not > ever deliberate modulation to another key. I don't mean > this as a criticism of her music (we probably would not > like her music as much as we do if modulation to other > keys was a major thing), I'm just trying to say that the > chord changes of the guitar songs are not as complicated > or difficult to describe as they could be. > > Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:54:21 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: back in the JMDL world NJC Welcome back, Tam-whatcha been up to? Did you see the "Woman of Heart & Mind" thing on PBS or dvd? Tamsin Lucas wrote: > Hi, not sure if anyone remembers me as I didn't post that often, but I left the list for a while but am now glad to be back (I'm using a different email now). Hope everyone is well. > Tamsin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:13:23 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: birthday fairy NJC >I concur. It was really nice to see the Birthday Fairy's posts, and they >were a wonderful reminder to send a personal greeting. >Lori I am up for reading anything from any fairy . . .. fairies spread your sparkle dust on us Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:35:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis i think what is confusing is that Joni often relied modal harmony. urge for going is not modulating - it is composed in the mixolydian scale (based on your E to D description). it has a lowered 7th (compared to the normal scale). not sure about amelia...would have to look at that more closely. jenny Randy Remote wrote: I agree that Amelia can be thought of as being in C- (although, in determining a key, 99% of the time, the key is the same as the first chord, so; Dm, but close enough). But then, after listing the chords, you say: "All of these chords fit into the key of C" These chords do not: Bb, Eb, Bm. They contain the notes Bb, Eb, and F#, respectively, none of which are contained in the key of C. You said: "In this particular case, the chord progressions *seem* to wander out of the key, but the key of the song doesn't shift to another key and continue there (modulation)." If the classical definition of modulation is the complete change (and continuation) to a different key, then you are right, these could be considered accidentals. I was using the word "modulation" (as I understand it) to describe temporary diversions out of the tonic key. As such, I still maintain that most of her songs do this, going back to "Urge For Going". (I don't know what key the record is in; I play it in E, so the second chord is D-already out of the key of E. Then it goes A to G, G being outside the tonic key, too). Lahm or somebody with a more complete background in theory may correct me. To me, these songs and most of Joni's songs modulate. RR Marian Russell wrote: > Howard was saying that Amelia had intro chords of > dm going up to F and then moving into G, so using > that as a basis: > > C is the tuning. I think that C is actually, > in this case, also the root key or tonic. There are > suggestions of other keys - the IV/IV Bb suggesting > the key of F, the iii/V bm suggesting the key of G, > but the basic key is C. > > The chord progressions (minus notation for sus, 7ths, > 9ths, etc.) are: > > Intro: > C dm em F Bb F Bb F > I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV > C dm em F Bb F Bb F > I ii iii IV IV/IV IV IV/IV IV > > G C G > V I V > I was driving a- cross the burning desert when I > > Bb Eb Bb > IV/IV IV/IV/IV IV/IV > spotted six jet planes leaving > > am bm > vi iii/V > six white vapor trails across the > > G C > V I > bleak ter- rain > > C > I > It was the hexagram of the > > bm > iii/V > heavens it was the > > G am > V vi > strings of my gui- tar > > am G > vi V > > F > IV > Amelia > > Bb > IV/IV > it was just a false a - > > F Bb F C dm em F > IV IV/IV IV I ii iii IV > larm > > All of these chords fit into the key of C. > > Maybe somebody else out there with a knowledge of > music theory would have a different take on this. > If so, please contribute. > > In this particular case, the chord progressions *seem* to > wander out of the key, but the key of the song doesn't > shift to another key and continue there (modulation). > The chord changes can be described within the key of C. > > I still maintain that in the guitar songs there is not > ever deliberate modulation to another key. I don't mean > this as a criticism of her music (we probably would not > like her music as much as we do if modulation to other > keys was a major thing), I'm just trying to say that the > chord changes of the guitar songs are not as complicated > or difficult to describe as they could be. > > Marian Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:49:06 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Joni for Kids cindy wrote: > i guess my most time-consuming "hobby" is my 11-yr-old daughter, > margaret, a budding joni fan. (okay, maybe i overestimate my > influence here, but she *loves* BYT (preferring joni's version > over the counting crow's version, god bless her) and jungle line, > but she hates all of mingus. more brainwashing, coming right > up!) This reminds me of a thread I wanted to start ... I think it may have gone around the block here before but let's give it a shot anyway: If you were to record a CD or cassette of Joni songs for a child, for what age child would you record it and what songs would you include? Why? Rather than list all of the songs I would include, I'm going to name the first three that pop into my head: Big Yellow Taxi Marcie The Circle Game Someone else want to take a turn? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:02:12 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: back in the JMDL world NJC I remember you, Tasmin! Welcome back! What's been happening in your life? Lori once in San Antonio, then in Philly, now in Maryland near DC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:25:18 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) Here's a game you can play tonight ... ... during GW's State of the Union address: http://www.drinkinggame.us/ : D Lori ~ http://www.aidsmarathon.com/participant.asp?runner=DCNO-3152&year=2003 http://lrfye.lunarpages.com/donorform.pdf ~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:55:36 EST From: ROSCOE1TC@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #18 this has nothing to do with anything posted. i was making yet another compilation tape, and for some reason, i went to the csny box set for something....oh, i remember.... it was to see if crosby's "laughing" was the same take as was included on his first solo album. but, then i just took to looking through the list of songs. i haven't played graham nash's wild tales for years, but i saw the title "another sleep song" and something clicked in my mind and reminded me that joni did some fanciful wailing on that song. i played it, and, omg, it was so wonderful to hear that again.... no one has ever or will ever do it like our joni. i was moved. terry n.p. lamb: fear of fours ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:00:53 EST From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: Re: why would someone be cutting at a party? ever had that person who compliments you in such a way that you just aren't sure it was a compliment at all? "cutting" people generally lack self esteem. God bless them and you ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:27:05 -0500 From: "anon anon" Subject: I love this website http://www.messagedepot.com/pointsOM.htm _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. http://wine.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:34:59 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Beat the blues, njc Last installment: * Ask a friend for help * Exercise hard * Go outside * Walk the dog * Keep a gratitude list to refer to. Write down 5 things that you're grateful for every night before bed. * Get a close support group of friends or family (or a more traditional support group) to talk with, and that you trust enough to listen to (and then take action) if they say they're worried about you. * And if you are feeling this way quite frequently GET HELP. * Don't count out antidepressants - they are not an easy way out, but a brave and difficult choice. They are not a miracle cure and can be a mixed bag. But they may greatly improve the quality of your life. * Listen to a lot of sad music (sad doesn't necessarily equal depressing - it's catharsis) so I can get good and blubbery and cry it out (cleans out the eyes and sinuses at the same time. Bonus.) All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:43:05 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Coping with depression: Tips from JMDLers Here's the lot. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu Some of Joni Mitchell's songs are descriptive of depression and others are cathartic for depression. I suspect that there is a lot of collected wisdom among Joni's fans about depression. This week Andrea lost her battle, but her death can focus attention on improving the lives of those still standing. Here is a list of "What Works" from people with real experience in the field: the Joni Mitchell Internet community. Maybe there's something comforting, something useful, something life-saving, among these ideas. Passing that along would be a fitting tribute to Andrea..... Lama [TABLE NOT SHOWN] * Find happiness in what you have (instead of pining for what you don't.) but... * Do not become resolved to complacency. So, you're both finding happiness and actively looking & struggling towards it. There's a paradox in there, that makes it difficult, I suspect. * Leave the dangers of the inner city and move to the country. * Keep a gratitude list to refer to. Write down 5 things that you're grateful for every night before bed. * Eat a diet of healthy foods (reducing sugars and watching carb intake and overly-processed food "junk calorie" intake, especially) * Get a close support group of friends or family (or a more traditional support group) to talk with, and that you trust enough to listen to (and then take action) if they say they're worried about you. * Be willing to call in professional help if things start feeling truly hopeless * Take a hot, hot, hot shower or soak your feet in hot water * Eat something, especially protein and some complex carbs, even if you don't feel hungry * Go to a good movie and get lost in the story * Go on a road trip to someplace new * If at all possible, force yourself to get some kind of exercise - even for 5 minutes * So be it, remind yourself it's temporary and rent a bunch of movies you love to get through the day/week/month. Get comfy and read a good book, magazine, or do crosswords. * Get to know your depression - are there triggers? does it take a certain form (ups and downs - or chronic)? does it happen during a certain time of the year? month? day? * See your physician, acupuncturist, herbalist, therapist, or other health practitioner of your choice (note it can take a LOT of legwork to find someone who is right for you - don't give up). * Get sleep. If you have a sleep disorder, see someone to help you treat it. You may be the kind of person who needs to exercise pretty hard almost everyday in order to sleep well. * Try "light therapy" in the fall, winter, and spring * Ultimately you have to come to some peace within. It all comes down to faith- about oneself- that 'you'll be alright', that the world is not totally mad (and you are the only sane one there- or visa versa), and that there is a reason, somewhere, for everything. * Talk to people who have depression. Talk to people who don't have depression, but who understand that it is a very real condition that effects you physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Ask them to let you know when they think your depression is starting to become a problem again - it's very sneaky and you may not realize it's happening. * Do things you love. If you have lost interest in everything, do things you know you *used* to love. * Be kind to yourself. If you're beating yourself up, imagine saying the things you are saying to yourself to someone you love dearly. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? So knock it off! * Take some risks. Challenge yourself. Do things that make you feel proud. Get involved in outside commitments that force you to participate in the world even if it's the last thing you want to do. * Your mantra when you simply cannot get out of the hell that is your brain or you are thinking of suicide: AND THIS TOO SHALL PASS. Batten down the hatches and wait it out, doing the best that you can, and being very forgiving, understanding, and gentle with yourself. * And if you are feeling this way quite frequently GET HELP. * Don't count out antidepressants - they are not an easy way out, but a brave and difficult choice. They are not a miracle cure and can be a mixed bag. But they may greatly improve the quality of your life. * Listen to a lot of sad music (sad doesn't necessarily equal depressing - - it's catharsis) so I can get good and blubbery and cry it out (cleans out the eyes and sinuses at the same time. Bonus.) * Listening to joyful music. Some of my all-time joyful music(s) are: Exultate, Jubilate by Mozart; Hungry Heart by Bruuuuuuccce (especially when played good and loud while driving, driving, driving, with the windows open) * Volunteer: If at the end of the day the world is a better place because you worked in a soup kitchen, or helped teach someone to read, or picked up litter off the highway, you know that you've made a difference, that it matters that you're here, and that there are a host of others out there who are much worse off than you * Music: Like Jackson Browne says, "let the music keep our spirits high", like JT says "singing works just fine for me" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:22:09 -0500 From: "anon anon" Subject: Re: why would someone be cutting at a party? >From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com >Reply-To: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: why would someone be cutting at a party? >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:00:53 EST > >ever had that person who compliments you in such a way that you just aren't >sure it was a compliment at all? "cutting" people generally lack self >esteem. >God bless them and you I haven't been to many parties,but from what I've noticed people are generally on thier best behavior...however maybe there's alot I'm missing... _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed net deals  comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:24:57 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: back in the JMDL world NJC I remember you Tamsin - didn't you manage to see Ms Amos on tour last year? (Still envious... not to mention kicking myself for not finding out.) - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:29:58 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords - Amelia analysis I wish to emphatically deny the scurrilous accusation that I have a background in theory. But seriously, folks... some day I want get with a trained and productive composer who has come up the traditional way and ask her or him to explain what theory and harmonic analysis really are. Recently, I have become increasingly suspicious that they are a useful labeling system with which we can assert briefly whether musical artifact A resembles or duplicates musical artifact B. They give us a terminology with which we can talk to each other. Perhaps no more than that, finito. I believe I'd be receptive to an explanation of how theory accounts for the greatness and originality of JM's writing.She can take relatively simple phrase or cadences and juxtapose them in startling ways as in "Amelia." Whether any given sequence of chords constitutes a "modulation" is not, I believe, relevant to her creativity. (I think it IS useful to distinguish between chordal and scalar emphases.) I honestly don't know if there is an accepted objective set of questions for determining when a modulation has been accomplished. I believe that "The Fiddle and the Drum" as performed on CLOUDS does "change key." And it doesn't change back. Same is true of "One for My Baby" (music by Harold Arlen.) Me for a sec: I have a sophisticated jazz ear which hears differences between chords, voicings and cadences which might be imperceptible or minute to many. If something doesn't sound right to me, I have ideas about what to try in order to find a better sound. This can lead to grotesque expenditures of time writing a bass part for a familiar old standard, but what the hell---to me it's fun and life is for learning. My nomenclature is that used by jazz musicians (chord symbols like Cmi7 or Aadd2) although I try to be quite precise with it. I don't believe that constitutes theory. I am enjoying the many contributions to this thread, LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:34:58 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Last call for new Jonifest DVD orders!! Just a reminder that I will be putting another order in soon for Jonifest DVD's if anyone is interested in ordering. Please have all orders and money in by January 25th if you'd like to place an order. http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/store.cfm Also, if you have a defective DVD, please let me know by that date so I can take care of it at the same time. Thanks! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:21:07 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] birthday njc When is her mother's??? oh, hi Alison me and david say have a slammer!:`) xoxo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:30:28 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni for Kids --- Lori Fye wrote: > > This reminds me of a thread I wanted to start ... I > think it may have > gone around the block here before but let's give it > a shot anyway: > > If you were to record a CD or cassette of Joni songs > for a child, for > what age child would you record it Children of all ages, including aging children... > and what songs > would you include? Michael from mountains Morning Morgantown Sisotowbell (sp?) Lane Chelsea Morning Ladies of the canyon Blue boy (ha, fooled ya!) Shiny toys (fooled ya again) > Why? Just because... > ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:20:39 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Joni mention on Who Wants to be a Millionaire Hi, gang, For someone who claims to not watch much TV, I seem to be finding a lot of Joni references on the tube lately; last week was the Joni answer/question on Jeopardy! and last night, on WWTBA Millionaire? I don't know how many of you watched it and I didn't tape it so this is from memory. I think it was around a $8,000 level question. It went something like, "Bill and Hillary Clinton are said to have named their daughter Chelsea after the song, "Chelsea Morning", written by whom? The choices were Janis Joplin, Carole King, Judy Collins and... oh, yeah, Joni Mitchell. The guy didn't have a clue and actually used a lifeline to "poll the audience". The audience was actually not very sure either, with only about 40% picking Joni, 30% picking one of the others and then maybe 15% for each of the other two. I was sitting there, all the while, saying, "It's Joni, you losers!!" The contestant finally agreed to go with the audience selection (risking much what he had won so far but I guess he didn't want to use another lifeline) and, of course, got it right. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:05:04 -0500 From: "Robert Argento" Subject: RE: Some are friendly,some are cutting... I certainly believe that "cutting people" is quite much a cultural thing (I am sorry to say of our American culture) and is a at least partly trained reflex. If you study the "Situation Comedy" as it is presented on TV, much - - if not the most, of the "humour" shown is of a cutting, insulting or degrading nature. And just in case we do not get it, we are trained to laugh through the insertion of canned laughter. True humour doesn't really need the laughing prompt. Strangely enough, this behaviour is less prevalent among half-strangers (as at a party), and more prevalent among people with whom we are more familier. This is nothing new. In high school in the mid 60's this was about the only type of humour I recall among classmates. As a youth in the USA, I, also, was conditioned in such a way. After 35 years in Europe, I became somewhat deprogrammed - and now probably laugh at things which few of us in the USA would find humourous. Now being back in the USA, I watch in puzzlement of quite a bit of that which is presented as humour. Yes, poor self esteem is certainly a contributing factor. But I don't think that we, as a people, have less self esteem as other cultures where this is not as prevalent. I would think that this behaviour is less prevalent in certain social groups, and I have a tendency to want to believe that members of this discussion group are less prone to this behaviour than others. Sorry to those who object Non-Joni Content - but I have at least marked it as such. Robban (back from Sweden - for the moment) > -----Original Message----- > From: les@jmdl.com [mailto:les@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of anon anon > Sent: den 19 januari 2004 14:29 > To: Joni@smoe.org > Subject: Some are friendly,some are cutting... > > Why would anyone be cutting at a party? > > _________________________________________________________________ > There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! > Learn more. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:06:44 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 21 On January 21 the following article was published: 1987: "Founders see festival dying with dignity" - Toronto Star (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1085 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #37 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)