From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #30 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, January 17 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 030 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 [Catherine McKay ] What do we all do for a living (VLJC) [Jennymac48@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 ["Victor Johnson" ] The Voice (was political posts (NJC) ) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) ["mackoliver" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #14 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Cactus Tree v Taming the Tiger [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Joni cover by Darol Anger [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Political bent and appreciation of Joni - SJC, but mostly about the list [Bobsart48@ao] Re: Person-to-person posts (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Person-to-person posts (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: birthday greetings (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: California [Bobsart48@aol.com] "The Arrangement" now njc ["Kate Bennett" ] "The Arrangement" now njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Fw: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! = longish ["Kate Bennett" ] Pick a category, any category (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: The Arrangement [Bobsart48@aol.com] RE: "The Arrangement" now njc ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ...NJC ["Lori Fye" ] RE: "The Arrangement" now with joni content!! ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Person-to-person posts (njc) [Chris Marshall ] Re: Joni cover by Darol Anger [Randy Remote ] Joni Compilation Project Update [Emiliano ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 07:58:03 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 Russell, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like maybe you're on the Joni-digest, rather than the joni-only one, and that maybe you want to be on the joni-only one. If you were, you wouldn't get most of the non-joni stuff. You should check the place on www.jmdl.com where you sign up and make sure you signed up for the one that's right for you. I'm copying this to the list at large, because there may be a few other people who could use this info as well. --- russell brooker wrote: > Hello Loves, > > If we're going to talk about Joni... > > Wellt then let's talk about Joni... > > Not your daily lives, I've got so much on the ball > about that... > > But let's talk about Joni. Please. I beseech you. As > a > planet, now. "Both Planets, Now". > > OK! We Did It! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:45:29 EST From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) Hi all. I don't know if this has been done but wouldn't it be fun to see what we all do for a living and what our main hobby activity is and how do we attribute either to Joni's influence (if we do). I'll go first: I'm a mosaic artist for a living and dogs are my hobby. The art I attribute to Joni because the pull to create got too strong not to and I listened to her songs long enough to get the stregnth to make it happen. (God Bless her.) The dogs are I attribute to Joni's influence that creatures like dogs are pure in love and can't hurt you (like some/most people). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:47:08 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 Please forgive me, oh most devoted follower of she who is called Joan Anderson. Please join me as I say this prayer. Our Joni, who art in Bel Air, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in Paprika Plains. Give us this day our daily joni And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into Brittany Spears, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, and nothing lasts for long, nothing lasts for long, nothings lasts for long, Amen. Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:35:08 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: The Voice (was political posts (NJC) ) Vanessa evanessa@mira.net asked > So... what's kd been wearing lately? Khaki shirt and trousers on a recent (and very enjoyable) Channel 4 documentary series called "The Voice" being shown on Sunday nights over here. No sign (boo!) of Joni in the first part (of 3) - which was a celebration of female vocalists - and featured great footage of Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson (wow!!), Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, Maria Callas, Dinah Washington, Edith Piaf and Patsy Cline (kd was featured briefly and talked about Patsy). As Rupert Smith said (rather snobbily, but I have to say I agree) in his review in The Guardian the following day: >Better than that it does not get. On the minus side, I do >not need to be interrupted half way through a number by >Mahalia Jackson to be told by Bono - of all people - how >good she is. There was a brave attempt to suggest that >the legacy of these artists lives on, but it foundered when >we saw Beyonci using every trick in the book to cover the >fact that she has no soul. "I listen to young singers now," >said Broadway veteran Barbara Cook, "and the entire >message is 'I can sing'." How right she was - but I doubt >the trilling, riffing, jigging likes of Beyonci were listening. Tomorrow's episode "features the impact of immigration to America, which brought Neapolitan tenor Enrico Caruso to stardom, before the dawning of the Jazz Age and the emergence of Louis Armstrong, the growth of the crooners such as Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra, and the influence of Nat 'King' Cole on Marvin Gaye, who in turn had a profound effect on Elvis Presley." With one more episode to go after this, perhaps there is still time for some Joni footage. best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:05:04 -0000 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Joni cover by Darol Anger Knowing Bob, he's probably already got it covered, but this sounds like an interesting addition to the collection - >February 24th marks the release of Republic of Strings >by Darol Anger and the American Fiddle Ensemble >(fiddler Brittany Haas, cellist Rushad Eggleston and >guitarist Scott Nygaard) on Compass Records, which includes a cover of Joni's "Help Me" sung by guest vocalist Laurie Lewis. (I saw Laurie at a festival I played at in Northern Ireland last year - great voice - and a fine fiddler, herself). The album also includes a cover of Stevie Wonder's "Higher Ground" with guest vocalist Sarah Watkins of Nickel Creek. Somewhere I've got a tape of Darol playing in Montreux (the band), which I really like. Fiddler Darol Anger (it says here) >has pioneered a unique fusion of classical, jazz, and bluegrass styles both as a solo artist and in a series of pioneering groups, including the David Grisman Quintet, the Montreux Band, the Turtle Island String Quartet, Psychograss, and the Grammy-nominated Fiddlers 4 (with Michael Doucet, Bruce Molsky, and Rushad Eggleston).> best to all PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:04:18 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) Okay Jenny. Diversion is good at this point. I am a nurse. Like to write, play sports, watch sports, garden, work with plants, bird watch, listen to mind bending music (joan for instance), spend time with family and friends, etc. Main activity at this point is trying to extricate myself from the foul, crud-filled, pus ridden existence I am currently sharing with this mentally ill drunk I made the mistake of knowing. Too much to share? If I can't with you here, then who else? For as Joan has sang, if you feel contempt, then tell it. There it is. The trial and the work continue. mack np: joan, ttt. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:51:52 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: ttt I've never heard Taming the Tiger but when I first bought Hejira I popped it into the CD player in my car and thought, "Wow wait a minute this is a LOT different than the other one's I've heard..... (At the time I had only heard Blue, LOTC, FTR, C&S, and Clouds and Joni Mitchell.) But then I was like, "Man I can really get into this....." So I understand what you mean about Hejira....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:58:02 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ...NJC I only wish I could watch that show....but we don't have Showtime in my house...Leisha Halley is in it, and if anyone doesn't know who she is, she is an actual lesbian who was k.d. lang's girlfriend and she said the show was very well done and not disrespectful or demeaning to lesbians at all.....So I think it will be great....Now if gay men had a decent show to watch other than "Queer as Folk" (GAG)....Dare to Dream.....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:59:42 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game!NJC Well at the risk of pissing someone off, the only reason the Republicans are for "Tort Reform" is so they can protect their buddies in big business from getting their butts sued off when they screw up and hurt someone.....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:02:07 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: on inventing chords In a message dated 1/16/2004 5:11:08 PM Central Standard Time, hvnphun16@hotmail.com writes: > > Rick wrote: "Don't you find it interesting that there so many successful > artists who were > self-taught on the guitar? Joni, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Wynonna Judd" > > I didn't know about those others (besides Joni). Thanks for sharing that > bit of info! > > I wonder how many other successful artists were self-taught? > > Well mia, i would venture a guess to say it's MANY MANY more than the ones I listed, and I'm sure I even know about more, but those were the only ones who came to mind at the time.....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:22:30 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Play the Political Joni's lyrics game Deb wrote: <> Yes, it could be interpreted like that! And Joni expanded on this same topic with WINDFALL: "In the land of litigation The courts are like game shows Take what's behind the curtain The jury cries" I think Joni likes to side with common sense more than siding with any political party. Also, during the Vietnam War, didn't some liberals attack her for performing for the soldiers? As if the soldiers themselves, especially the draftees, were responsible for the decisions made by the federal government. Mia _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:43:13 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" and leisha halley...NJC oddly enough, i used to know leisha halley. she used to be in a band called 'the murmurs' (basically just two girls) which used to play sin'e (the same bar in the east village where jeff buckley started his rocketride career) and i saw them many times, and actually dated their manager for about one date. a nice, good-looking guy. my loss. the other girl's name was heather something and she had a nice earthy alto. i didn't like leisha's voice as much; it was an extremely high soprano, but they were able to put some amazing harmonies together. had a very fun song called 'you suck' lots of info on amazon on them, but it doesn't look like much of their music is available. i have their first, called 'who are we', self produced before they went to l.a. very '60s retro. patrick np, new york metro mass choir, hold out "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Musicloverrick@aol.com >Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:58 PM >To: lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com; joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ...NJC > > >I only wish I could watch that show....but we don't have Showtime in my >house...Leisha Halley is in it, and if anyone doesn't know who she >is, she is an >actual lesbian who was k.d. lang's girlfriend and she said the >show was very >well done and not disrespectful or demeaning to lesbians at >all.....So I think it >will be great....Now if gay men had a decent show to watch other >than "Queer >as Folk" (GAG)....Dare to Dream.....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:59:46 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: LOTC and harmonic complexity Les asked of David: "I'd be interested in your opinion David. Take the Ladies of the Canyon album. Do you hear the same harmonic complexities on the piano songs as you do on the guitar songs? To me, piano songs like Willy and Rainy Night House are pretty standard harmonically; majors, minors, passing tones. The harmonic complexities in those songs come from her voice, not from the piano. Compare that with guitar songs like Conversation or The Priest. More complex harmonically? Because of the open tunings? " LOTC holds a near and dear place in my heart, as my intro to Joni and the record through which I fell in love with her work (and her, I suppose). I too am looking forward to reading David's reply (I am days behind, catching up, in chronological order). But I would say this: 1. Joni was just getting into piano compositions with LOTC - her first two albums were basically guitar-only (though she did play piano on Night in the City, it seems). One would expect a certain amount of simplicity in her earlier efforts, and for growth to occur over time. 2. I agree that Willy and Rainy Night House (as well as Blue Boy) are relatively straightforward by her standards. For Free, too (witness some of her later arrangements of that song, which were a bit more colorful). However, to be fair, within LOTC we see early indications of complexity in The Arrangement and Woodstock (that nearly "all black keys" composition concept). 3. It would not be long before her piano arrangements became more interesting and colorful - My Old Man, Blue, The Last Time I Saw Richard being good illustrations - one release later. 4. I agree completely that The Priest is a special song - and that the guitar composition is one of her best. However, Conversation is a very simple song by Joni's standards - including her earlier standards, as David pointed out. I would have picked the title song to LOTC as a second illustration of more complex guitar arrangement.. 5. I was very much taken by her piano arrangements on the next several records, too - FTR and C&S contain some beautiful piano compositions as song accompaniment - especially The Banquet, Judgment of the Moon and Stars, Lesson in Survival/Let the Wind Carry Me, Down to You. I believe that it is easier to compose the sounds that one hears on the piano than on the guitar (or than on any other instrument, for that matter). I hypothesize this: that it may be easier to play (while singing) some of the more complex chordal progressions on the guitar (with its simple fingerings) than on the piano - which means that for performance purposes, Joni may have been more inclined to composing on the guitar. (Also, it's tough to lug the piano around the house with you.) Finally, one could argue that the "sounds" can be varied/altered more on guitar (a string instrument) than piano (a percussion instrument) - which may have kept Joni more interested over the years from a creative perspective ("what new sounds can I come up with?" - not merely "what new notes ?"). I imagine there are many aspects to her art with which I am totally unfamiliar, because of my limitations. I'd love to hear her answers on this subject, but I'll settle for David's. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:01:00 -0600 From: Subject: Pe: Pick a category, any category (NJC) Catherine wrote: "Someone already mentioned about Tori Amos being in the alternative/punk category. The whole "alternative" thing is confusing to me. The catalogue in front of me has groups and people like Pearl Jam, Oasis and The Clash in there; but it also has Jason Mraz, Sarah McLachlan and Dido in the same category. I don't get it. And it puts James Taylor, Leonard Cohen, The Chieftains, Cesaria Evora and Gordon Lightfoot in "Light sounds and easy listening" along with Broadway musicals, Barry Manilow, and Yanni. How do those go together?" To me, the "alternative" classification begs the obvious question: alternative to *what*??? It sort of feels like speaking German: there I am, waiting for the verb (or in this case, the noun). And Leonard Cohen is "light sounds and easy listening???" *Holy cripes*. . .did anyone at Columbia Records ever bother dragging out the lyric sheets and listening to the WORDS??! Mary, who has seriously reconsidered recommending otherwise great Cohen CDs to friends who were, at the moment, struggling with depression. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:03:46 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #14 << From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: STAS or JM I like to refer to it as STAS because Joni named it that, even if the goofs in the graphics department didn't realize it. I can so clearly remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom in Phoenix, studying the cover of the record that I had recently bought at a used store near the university, and realizing that those seagulls spelled something. (And wondering, "Why was the 'L' cut off?") I was 21 and had been listening to Joni for just two years. I wish I could relive the majic of discovering each of Joni's recordings, in random order, again. What sheer joy! Lori :~) >> Yeah, Lori, I've had such great memories of "discovering" things, be they songs, albums or old comic books. It has something to do with the "unexpected" aspect of it all... such a surprise yet profound impression. I get a similar, perhaps less extreme, feeling when turning on the car radio and hearing a favorite song and getting all excited even though I could have easilly popped in a tape or CD and chose to play it at any time because I already love it/own it. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:26:24 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Cactus Tree v Taming the Tiger Les closed: "Cactus Tree vs Taming the Tiger? No comparison! :-)" But I do not really understand. In terms of playing the guitar to accompany yourself (whether or not while singing the song), TTT is much more complex rhythmically and more difficult to master than the relatively simple Travis picking on Cactus Tree, IMO. (Listen hard to Tiger Bones, and try to play it, to see what I mean). As far as "songs" go, my vote goes to Cactus Tree over TTT, but I like 'em both !! Best Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:40:40 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni cover by Darol Anger **Knowing Bob, he's probably already got it covered, but this sounds like an interesting addition to the collection -** Au contraire, mon frer! This is a new one on me, and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I did turn up some interesting new ones this week, and one of them was in fact a Help Me, but this is exciting news. And all the more so because as you say Darol and this string band are amazing musicians. I too was awed by the Montreaux CD's and have one that I enjoy very much. Barbara Higbie, who also played with Montreaux, recorded "Rainy Night House" a while back and that's a very pretty version. So...I'll add this to the database and anxiously await its birth. Looks like 2004 is shaping up to be yet another banner year in the never-a-dull-moment world of Joni covers! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:04:37 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Political bent and appreciation of Joni - SJC, but mostly about the list Mary replied to Buck: "What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. " Well, Mary, you may be right, but I am hard pressed to understand why you would want to imply tolerance of - or even apologize for - such a narrow-minded view. I think that most of the liberal leaning people politically on this list do not feel that way. (For those that do, feel free to add me to your count of those "conservative-leaning" listers who have no problem whatsoever appreciating Joni's art or the views expressed therein - not that I necessarily share them in all cases). On this list - as in the world at large - there are "knee-jerk" liberals and conservatives. But there are also the more thoughtful types who lean one way or the other, without dismissing the other conclusions as necessarily 'wrong' - and certainly not worthless, much less 'evil'. I think that the support you suggest, if real, is extremely misguided. Mary further wrote: "But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? " By "somewhat controversial", I believe you are euphemizing. As I recall, her quote was pretty close to - "Most of the feminists are basically man-haters - at least all the ones that I know". Well, here was Joni slipping - while also unwittingly showing the danger of labelling (are 'feminists' only the hard core, politically antagonistic, "tail of the bell curve" types, or also the middle of the road, pro-fairness types of people like myself ? ;-) ). Anyway, Joni's political statements rarely achieve anger levels in her art. Most of the time, there is pathos mixed with urgency, sadness mixed with hope. In the rare cases where she does step out, the art tends to be diminished IMO (even if I share her revulsion of the stereotypical evangelist in Tax Free, for instance - which I do). A good example of her work in this regard is Borderline - do you imagine her "opinionated friend" to be a conservative demagogue type, or could the song's lyrics also be applicable to a liberal demagogue type ? I see Joni as being among the "open-minded" types, who seems to come down on the liberal side of most political issues, but whose art reflects what she sees as honestly as she can present it, and who usually leaves her "borderline" political opinions out of her art. Once in a while, when she sees an issue as truly not borderline, she steps out. I can relate to that. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:11:25 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Person-to-person posts (njc) Jenny>>but, it's difficult to address the "in crowd" issue because the people who feel there is one rarely explain what it is about the list that leads them to this conclusion. > I happen to believe that we see the world & others through the filter of our past experiences & through the filter of how we feel about ourselves... So while someone may feel outside, another may feel inside, by virtue of just how they 'feel' about themselves & the world in general... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:15:36 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Person-to-person posts (njc) >because you might not have the birthday child's e-mail address. < That is why I often post to the list (being on digest) , rather than trying to find a current email... SO...if someone is making a b'day announcment, maybe they can include the email in the post & that would help ... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:20:59 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: birthday greetings (njc) --- Victor Johnson wrote: > > I actually enjoyed the BF's greetings (contrary > > creature that I am). It's the me-too posts I don't > > much care for. > > me too. Don't care for them at all... Me three victor...:~} Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:23:09 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame Excellent choice - well deserved. I assume Blue is already in ? Hejira and S&L should get in, too, IMO. That would make 4, on the merits. But are these other two accessible enough to get the votes ? I hope so. That would be something. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:36:01 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: California Lori asked: "All the news of home you read More about the war And the bloody changes from "California" Is Joni complaining or merely observing?" Well, she's got the blues. She's lonely in Spain; the streets are full of strangers. And there is additional melancholy - reading that the home she is away from is embroiled in a deadly war, with divisive dissent that itself is producing mounting casualties as the times they are a changin'. A perfect example of her political art at its best - capturing the mood of the times without anger or bias, serving as a conduit for the sadness, pain and frustration so widely felt at the time, and putting into a single verse. And a nice complement (and contrast) to Dylan's anger, eh ? Sadly observing, IMO. She was really something. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:41:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "The Arrangement" now njc > to do what they really wanted to do all along, except now they're kind of old and maybe it's too late.< I've been thinking about this idea lately as I talk to people who fall into one of two camps...one being 'its never too late' & the other being 'its too late'... I am in the first camp I guess because to me, life is a process, not a product (for the most part)...to me, the people in the first camp seem much happier...the others seem more resigned... Any comments? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:41:39 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "The Arrangement" now njc > to do what they really wanted to do all along, except now they're kind of old and maybe it's too late.< I've been thinking about this idea lately as I talk to people who fall into one of two camps...one being 'its never too late' & the other being 'its too late'... I am in the first camp I guess because to me, life is a process, not a product (for the most part)...to me, the people in the first camp seem much happier...the others seem more resigned... Any comments? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:54:46 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Fw: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! = longish Ron> what there is seems to be more personal, becoming less personal as time passes...it seems to me that she actually lost a lot in the growing up....it doesnt draw me in, it doesnt involve, theres just nothing personal about it...its really just an impression which i am for the first time trying to put into some coherent (hopefully) words - so perhaps im wrong... any and all thoughts on the topic would be gratefully welcomed :-)< Ain't no right or wrong to this but I agree with you ron, I think there is more art in subtly including a politial view within a story (making it personal whether or not it is actually autiobiographical) than just talking 'at' someone which like you mentioned, does not draw me in either...being drawn in here is the key to excellent writing, imo... I have to feel emotionally it as well as appreciate it intellectually for it to be a great song... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:59:55 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: on inventing chords >I wonder how many other successful artists were self-taught?< This is a hard question to answer because I don't know what self taught really means... I think Bonnie Raitt learned a lot from playing with blues guys but it wasn't in a formal setting... Many talk about learning songs by listening to records so in a sense that is self taught but in a sense it is not... Self taught could be totally making up stuff by ear but I think most musicians can site many influences from which they draw their ideas whether it is conciously or subconciously... If self taught means not studying music theory perhaps that is one definition but in learning music by alternative means, it is possible to learn quite a bit of music theory which really boils down to relatively simple math... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:04:32 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Pick a category, any category (NJC) What once was alternative is now classic rock according to our local classic rock station (clear channel owned of course) which actually makes it much more interesting than getting stuck in only decades ago selections.. Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:07:23 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: political posts (NJC) >I just find that as a non US JMDLer that sometimes the political issues are more US politics and I find it a little tiresome to read.< Only because we have not colonized you yet! JK! Sorta... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:23:05 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The Arrangement Lori wrote: "That song (one of my favorites on LOTC) has always seemed to me to be -- at least in some ways -- Joni's indictment upon selling one's soul to Capitalism and the almighty dollar. Well, I personally find that song haunting - and so did my dad before me. But not an indictment - rather, a personal whisper in the listener's ear. Not really that you "should have been more", but the more affirmative -even understanding - "you could have been more". Sort of like "I understand your inner beauty - you made some choices, they worked out to some extent, but was it worth giving up the dream for ?" A whisper, considering the potential downside of the road she herself did not take, and perhaps affirming her own decision (which she in turn questioned many times in song) to not pursue the potential upside satisfaction of giving of herself to another and a family and thereby possibly earn and know the love that only can come from that. I think this is not even really social commentary, much less political commentary - it is an angle on the haunting aspect of big choices/decision that we all face, and the "what if's" left behind. . Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:31:28 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: "The Arrangement" now njc Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ... I am in the first camp I guess because to me, life is > a process, not a product (for the most part)...to me, the people in the > first camp seem much happier...the others seem more resigned... > > Any comments?> I completely believe life is a process. If I thought I had everything completely figured out I think life would be incredibly boring. I'm either really foolish or really stubborn, depending on which way you look at it, but I've never been willing to settle for less than what I really want. And I've hit rock bottom before but was able to bounce back and its still a struggle but ultimately I hope to find what I'm looking for. Of course I could have done some things differently but then life is for learning and who knows if things would have ended up the same? Life is constantly weaving and thriving and evolving like a dolphin swimming and if you grab a hold of it it will take you places. That's how I see it anyway. I think fear can be the biggest obstacle to overcome. Victor NP: Joni "Blue Boy" > Kate > www.katebennett.com > "bringing the melancholy world of > twilight to life almost like magic" > The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:33:45 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ...NJC Rick wrote: > Now if gay men had a decent show to watch other than "Queer as Folk" > (GAG).... I LOVE QAF! My partner and I have rented the first two seasons on DVD and we've caught most of the third on Showtime. I know, I know, not all gay life is like that. But SOME of it is. For the most part, I think QAF is a clever show. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:40:07 -0500 From: vince Subject: boring post njc I have been thinking about all the exchanges lately about posts in the NJC JMDL - what set this off? a couple of blasts at us all? a nasty exchange of words between a few posters? and we being all sensitive people took it too seriously maybe? let's not get all paranoid about what gets posted - I am not fond of birthday posts but I would rather wade through 100 birthday posts a day than have one person not post one to someone else. I am not fond of AbFab posts but I would rather wade through 100 AbFab posts a day than have the fans of that show not feel free totally to discuss their fave. I am not fond of one poster calling another poster a liar but I would rather have the JMDL as a whole respond and deal with the issue rather than stifle the discussion here of issues that obviously matter to us. I do read the political posts and as most of us live in the US most will be about the US but I really enjoy the political posts about everything from people who live outside of the US because that is a perspective that I am truly informed by and have learned much from and I wish those in countries that are not the US would post more about what is taking place in their country or part of the world. Reality: every one of us who post actually post stuff that bores someone else. My posts about my grandson Gage - I know sure as hell they bore some people but other people email me that they like them. On the flip side, posts about guitar chords bore me because I do not play guitar and just because I can't understand what those posts are about, that is my problem, not the JMDL's problem. I can 1) learn to play the guitar or 2) appreciate that people who understand those things and can use that information have a place to talk about their thing. We have all posted something that has been totally uninteresting to someone else - but we have also all posted things that are deeply interesting to others and it is the same post that bores one that fascinates another - we are a group with many facets and that should be appreciated and celebrated rather than us self-censoring or limiting ourselves from the free range of posting that has made this place a real community. I have missed the posts that I totally can't fathom where members who live in the remnants of the British Empire talk about cricket or whatever it is... my view is, if I don't understand it, others do and ain't it great that those who appreciate it have a place to share - just like some of our baseball talk last October surely meant nothing to others - please please please everyone, post away about everything - everything that relates to the life and times of Joni Mitchell, everything that makes the JMDL the most unique internet community ever - and next time someone blasts us, we should appreciate that someone posted their opinion, look within to be informed and to check validity, and respond with equanimity rather than be offended or respond with a blast back or get so sensitive that we cannot accept that not every human being in the world will appreciate the JMDL - next time the discussion gets really heavy, hey, for heavy subjects that will happen, if someone gets out of line (in one's opinion) we can self- deal with that - but where would we be if we did not have a forum where we can share our views and opinions and insights - what many people in life lack, is a place where they can speak out - our posters can do that - - God bless us for that and may it freely continue isn't a reflection of how great the JMDL is that many people have expressed their concern for this place - let's rock and role here! and for subjects being offensive? big deal, we can deal with anything and move on - the old timers will remember the thread "joni's pussy" that I don't even remember what that was about - nothing done before or since has been as offensive a title as that was to me and others - but he thread went on for a while and some people thought the title was non offensive - or who remembers when probably some male people were describing their own penis - we lived through that - we can live through anything - let's just be us here and now that any dust up is temporary and we will roll on because what is permanent here is far more remembered that the brief blips - I have learned more about things that I did not know or know I should know or even know where things out there to know because of the posters here and the wonderful wide variety of posts - Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:00:18 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: "The Arrangement" now with joni content!! >I think fear can be the biggest obstacle to overcome. Victor< Me too...& it really IS the only thing to fear! I love the philosophy of 'face your fear & do it anyway'... It really works... Fear loves inaction, it feeds on it, it grows bigger on it... Also fear is a bully that likes you to believe it is a bigger obstacle than it really is... Its just a puny punk... :~} Or to bring it back to joni: 'fear is like a wilderland, stepping stones or sinking sands' Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:09:00 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: boring post njc In a message dated 17/01/2004 23:51:06 GMT Standard Time, revrvl@chartermi.net writes: << I have missed the posts that I totally can't fathom where members who live in the remnants of the British Empire talk about cricket or whatever it is >> Ah, well let me take you up on that and ask if anyone has seen Lagaan, the extraordinary Indian film which was nominated for an oscar for best foreign film about 3 years ago. I've just watched it on DVD, and can report that it hinges entirely around a game of cricket, a sport which has hardly featured in any films that I can think of, and certainly never as such an integral part of the plot. [The only exception is a really awful film set in Jamaica called The Lunatic, a sort of vanity project for Chris Blackwell] It was patchy, in that some of the acting was little more than caricature, especially the boo-hiss English captain who's the cartoon villain; and the script is a bit lumpy in places. But it's an exhilarating ride, with some lovely performances, ravishing cinematography and even - OMG - some enjoyable song-and-dance numbers. Oh, and the climactic cricket game is terrifically staged, clearly by people who know the game inside out - which of course you'd expect from a cricket-obsessed nation. OK, here's the obligatory incomprehensible bit: if only they hadn't blundered with an anachronistic reading of the no-ball rule, which in those days applied to the back foot, not the front foot - sheesh! ;-) Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:19:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: 9/11 Chair: Attack Was Preventable NJC Appointed by the Bush administration, Kean, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, is now pointing fingers inside the administration and laying blame.... Kean admits the commission also has more questions than answers. Asked whether we should at least know if people sitting in the decision-making spots on that critical day are still in those positions, Kean said, "Yes, the answer is yes. And we will." Kean promises major revelations in public testimony beginning next month from top officials in the FBI, CIA, Defense Department, National Security Agency and, maybe, President Bush and former President Clinton. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/17/eveningnews/main589137.shtml Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:22:17 -0600 From: Subject: RE: Political bent and appreciation of Joni (NJC) Bob wrote, in response to an earlier post of mine: "Mary replied to Buck: "What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. " Well, Mary, you may be right, but I am hard pressed to understand why you would want to imply tolerance of - or even apologize for - such a narrow-minded view. I think that most of the liberal leaning people politically on this list do not feel that way. (For those that do, feel free to add me to your count of those "conservative-leaning" listers who have no problem whatsoever appreciating Joni's art or the views expressed therein - not that I necessarily share them in all cases). On this list - as in the world at large - there are "knee-jerk" liberals and conservatives. But there are also the more thoughtful types who lean one way or the other, without dismissing the other conclusions as necessarily 'wrong' - and certainly not worthless, much less 'evil'. I think that the support you suggest, if real, is extremely misguided." To which I initially responded, as I wrote to Bob in a private e-mail, HUH????!!!!! I then reviewed my initial post to the list, and realized that it was not nearly as clear as it could, or should have been. But, as I responded to Buck several days ago, the "view" that I had in mind was the view that Joni is, indeed, somewhat more liberal than conservative; the "support" for that view, as I meant it, is found in her actions, interviews, music, and art. I was *NOT* (categorically, NOT) referring to support on this list or anywhere else for liberal views, or for the proprosition that conservatives can't or shouldn't appreciate liberal-leaning artists!!!! Sheez. On days like this, I really think I ought to start learning a language other than English. I certainly can't seem to use this one very well! ;-) That said, I *do* think it's only human nature that the explicit political views of an artist, of any stripe, often will influence the appreciation given to that artist by a viewer or listener, also of any stripe. That portion of "art" which is independent of content can take us so far. However, after a certain point, content *does* come into play, and does, like it or not, often influence our reactions. For instance, I have friends who find it extremely difficult to listen to Richard Wagner, due to the anti-Semitic views that are implicit and, at times, clear in his work. It might be challenging for some liberals to appreciate country singer Toby Keith. It could be unusual for some conservatives to become ardent fans of the Dixie Chicks, after Natalie Maines' pointed comments about President Bush last year. I am not saying that this is right. I'm not saying that it's wrong. I am certainly, CERTAINLY not saying it's limited to conservatives' views about liberal artists!! (There are not enough underscores on my keyboard for that one!) What I *am* saying that content in art does sometimes, or even, often, influence the degree of appreciate for that art, and for the artist who created it. To the extent that this reaction happens, I can understand it, although I would not say that I "condone" or "apologize for" it. Finally, a major point of my original post is that Joni's views are far more nuanced (in my opinion) than, say, those of any of the artists I mentioned above. Therefore, it's all the more likely that, even given the all-too-human tendency I've discussed, Joni's music could and does appeal to individuals of all political beliefs. Mary, Going to dinner now. Embarassed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:43:52 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Person-to-person posts (njc) On 17 Jan 2004, at 21:15, Kate Bennett wrote: > That is why I often post to the list (being on digest) , rather than > trying to find a current email... SO...if someone is making a b'day > announcment, maybe they can include the email in the post & that would > help ... The only problem with e-mail addresses in the body of the message is that when the message ends up in the archive, it may fall prey to the spammers' e-mail address harvesting tactics and the birthdayee (so to speak) might get (yet more) spam as a result. Easy solution: replace the @ in their address with AT and until such a time as address harvesting software gets more clued up, the birthday person's e-mail address is safe. I've included Les on this message so he can confirm my theories here. - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:04:16 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni cover by Darol Anger SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > **Knowing Bob, he's probably already got it covered, > but this sounds like an interesting addition to the > collection -** > > Au contraire, mon frer! This is a new one on me, and I appreciate you > bringing it to my attention. I did turn up some interesting new ones this week, and > one of them was in fact a Help Me, but this is exciting news. And all the more > so because as you say Darol and this string band are amazing musicians. I've seen Darol a couple of times, and he is one fine gut scraper. I'm sure it will be a classy rendition. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:32:57 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Joni Compilation Project Update Hi, it's saturday night, the girls are sleeping, and here comes the exclamation marks' prince again! Gerry wrote ( some 2 days ago, in acousticharmonies@yahoogroups.com): > > Who do you think should be the next singer/songwriter to get the > Acoustic Harmonies "treatment"? > > My first thought was Van Morrison, but it may be time for a woman to > get the spotlight. How about Sandy Denny or Laura Nyro? > > Just trying to stir things up a bit. I have no idea what shows are > available and obviously that's a big factor. > and Ray: > > I know there are some huge Joni fans out there. Anyone would like to > put something together? > Well, you know I enthusiastically talked about this with Mr Paz, and then on list... Humm, I'm so overwhelmed (who isn't?) Isn't even a year, by now, when I discovered this Queendom, this wonderful & beloved list (though sometimes it's a pain in the ass, Feliciano!). I only knew the "Urge for going" bootleg (here known as "Circle game") last february ! I'd love to have an [acousticharmonies] Joni Mitchell compilation, but only if it's made by the JMDLers! I fear our SIQUOMB will get angry if we weed it openly here! Even if we put list name on artwork? ??? I'm never in hurry (well, some running to girls' school exit)... it's hard working january... anyway, I post in separate the list (ordered by show date... except the studio outtakes)... you know, maybe we can start thinking, plus about the songs that aren't by now, about the order: I figure out as a show, beginning with band, alternating some solo renditions... Even if the techny aspect of this (the editing and burning) need to be made by just one of us , I thought it would be funny to make little suggestions on list, even receiving some flaming joke ;-) For the artwork... it will be of trouble putting the photographer's name? I somewhat repeat my question about your point of view about copyright 'n legal things possibly involved. Well... Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano NP: Chinese Cafe', from Wembley '83, Thanks Randy! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #30 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)