From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #26 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, January 15 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 026 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! ["Les Irvin" ] NJC - Willy The Shake in Houston ["Donna Binkley" ] Today In History: the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born [simon@ic] RE: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! ["Kate Bennett" ] Person-to-person posts (njc) ["Jim Leonard" ] Re: On Inventing chords [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:48:49 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! > 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. "...while Muslims stick up Washington..." fron Otis and Marlena This lyric has been traced back to a specific event on March 9, 1977 in Washington. Twelve Hanafi Muslims heavily armed with shotguns and machetes stormed into the offices of B'nai B'rith and the Islamic Center. For 39 hours, the terrorists held 123 hostages on the eighth floor of the building. Read all about it here: http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/muslims.cfm By the way, have you ever contributed a Glossary entry to the JMDL? You should! http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/ Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Orts Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! okay, I'll play. i think Joni's lyrics tend to be more social commentary than political, but then those lines blur, don't they? As in these lines . . . 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. Is justice just ice? Governed by greed and lust? Just the strong doing what they can And the weak suffering what they must? 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) I think Joni has long shown an understanding of how power works in this world, the corrupting influence of it, power's desperation (quiet and not quiet) to hold onto power by letting the poor/weak suffer--until the poor suffer too much and rise up in revolution. I think she sees the futility in the cycle of vengeance while also seeing everyone's part in the terrible web. Probably her most maddening quality, in this arena, is her ability to see many sides to an issue. Going back to Dog Eat Dog, "Fiction" is an excellent example of how no one escapes her clear eye on that. My commentary is more on her catalog on the whole, I guess. I just quoted a lyric to follow the rules of the game. ;) - -Neil ===== Neil Ellis Orts 713-838-1787 Houston, TX keep up with my creative endeavors--join my newsletter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neonews ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:28 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Tedder) Subject: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! Kate Bennett wrote "I have not tried to count out joni's rhythm but at times it sure can be challenging to play exactly like she does- so I don't!...perhaps she skips bars & some such stuff, dylan said something like joni has her own time but she is allowed to tell you what time it is..." In a book I read called 'Blackfoot Physics' the author,F David Peat recounts a story by Leroy Little Bear who says he was supposed to be listening to an Elder but kept looking at his watch. The Elder said; 'Do you have somewhere else to go?' 'No' said Leroy 'Then why do you keep looking at your watch?' 'Well, to see what time it is.' 'No you don't. You look to see what time it isn't.' I love this story because I am so often looking at my watch. If I have an appointment at 3.00 I'm always looking to check it isn't 3. I know Joni has a lot of time for Indian chiefs with their old beliefs. Maybe Joni was telling Dylan what time it isn't or just merely underlining that the times they are a changing. Yours (metaphysically spinning into the vortex) Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Quoting Les Irvin : > > 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. And so, once again. My dear Johnny, my dear friend. And so once again You are fighting us all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:25:27 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Bob wrote: > Extry extry, read all about it: > > http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp? vnu_content_id=2067633 That's pretty cool except ... "The slate of albums includes folk hero Joni Mitchell's 1974 set "Court and Spark" Folk hero? How odd, considering C & S doesn't contain a single folk song that I can recall. Pretty jazzy, that album! WHY do people, specifically music journalists WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER, persist in referring to Joni as a folkie? Lori, disgruntled ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:47:53 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame It's just the way the music biz is, I think...hell, I've even seen BSN & T'log categorized as "folk rock". It's much easier for these people if they can niche and segment everything. Can you imagine going into a record store and having to look for Joni cd's in the "folk", "jazz", "easy listening" etc. sections? So Joni is usually in the "Rock" section even though ironically that's probably what she is the LEAST! Bob NP: Eminem, "Soldier" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:47:29 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Hi Deb, I have the HDCD version of "Song To A Seagull" which is what it is titled at the side. I've noticed that the quality is worse than any of her other remastered albums but it doesn't spoil listening to it at all . I can still hear every word! I couldn't imagine the album not sounding a bit muddy coz that's how it's always sounded. NP: Save The Country - Laura Nyro * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deb Messling" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album > Oh no, the STAS controversy again! Here's the story: Joni *intended* to > call the album "Song to a Seagull," and even used that title to describe > the upcoming album to a concert audience (tape of which is widely > available). However, as she noted later, the record company didn't notice > the graphics and called the album "Joni Mitchell." > > At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is > what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging > is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its > official title. > > I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its > official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, > too. Can anyone verify that? > > > Deb Messling -^..^- > messling@enter.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:37:18 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: It happened again! I'm trying to function in the office on a slow day and I am listening to Joni on my Real One Player. Don't Interrupt the Sorrow is on and all of a sudden, my heart leaped for joy!!! What a fantastic voice! it is so smooth and mellow! What a writer!!!! What a songstress!!!! .....Okay...I think I am over it now! Continue on with your discussions! :) Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed net deals  comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:44:49 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: NJC - Willy The Shake in Houston Hi yall, Thought some might like to see a picture of Willy The Shake and I at McGonigel's Mucky Duck pub, taken during his visit 12-23-03. Db Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Willy The Shake & Donna 12-03.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:45:42 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame (NJC) On 15 Jan 2004, at 19:47, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > It's just the way the music biz is, I think...hell, I've even seen BSN > & T'log categorized as "folk rock". As I glance over at my iTunes window, I notice that Tori Amos' "Scarlet's Walk" album got categorised as "Alternative & Punk" in the online CD databse. People have *no* idea, it seems. - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:51:01 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame (NJC) > As I glance over at my iTunes window, I notice that Tori Amos' > "Scarlet's Walk" album got categorised as "Alternative & Punk" > in the online CD databse. > > People have *no* idea, it seems. It's like going into a store and asking for Joan Armatrading -- WHERE do you put her? Or Stryngs, for that matter. ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:57:33 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Pick a category, any category (NJC) Well, it is a tricky game...you'll recall the discussion we had about what Stryngs was. This can also get goofy when you're selling CD's on ebay. The categories are pretty weird. I've never felt like the category I picked for a record or CD was very accurate. Luckily, most people sort on a key word or words (like "Joni Mitchell") than looking at categories. Bob NP: Equation, "Myself" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:04:55 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: Pick a category, any category (NJC) On 15 Jan 2004, at 20:57, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Well, it is a tricky game...you'll recall the discussion we had about > what Stryngs was. Yup. We still don't know the answer really... and I go through the same process of prevarication every time I register us on another lameo online music site... :) Does anyone else have some examples of blatantly odd categorisation of music? - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:24:22 -0000 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: This list is a good thing Whoops. Sorry Joni only folks. That should have been NJC. ...:*( Martin. In London. (And probably the doghouse!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:05:12 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Today In History: the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born i think it's Important! to note ... seventy-five years ago today, on January 15, 1929 ... the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born. and America is better because of it. too bad America no longer seems to care. the dream remains UnFulfilled! apparently deferred ... WHAT HAPPENS TO A DREAM DEFERRED? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore -- And then run? Does it stink like a rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over -- like a syrupy sweet? Maybe it just sags like a heavy load. OR DOES IT EXPLODE? Langston Hughes (p) 1959 ----------- Upcoming on "The American Experience" (PBS) CITIZEN KING Monday, January 19, 2004 (1.5 hrs.) The story begins on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in August 1963, when a 34-year-old preacher galvanized millions with his dream for an America free of racism. It comes to a bloody end almost five years later on a motel balcony in Memphis, Tennessee. In the years since those events unfolded, the man at their center, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., has become a mythic figure, a minister whose oratory is etched into the minds of millions of Americans, a civil rights activist whose words and image are more hotly contested, negotiated and sold than almost anyone else's in American history. Produced by award-winning director Orlando Bagwell, Citizen King pushes past the myths that have obscured King's story to reclaim the history of a people's leader. Using the personal recollections, diaries, letters, and eyewitness accounts of friends, journalists, law enforcement officers, historians, and others, this film brings fresh insights to King's difficult journey, his charismatic - -- if at times flawed -- leadership, and his truly remarkable impact. Produced by Orlando Bagwell and Noland Walker http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/mlk/ http://www.wgbh.org/schedules/program-info?program_id=24238&episode_id=1205245 "The American Experience" (PBS) CITIZEN KING In August 1963, a 34-year-old minister gave a speech that enthralled a crowd of more than 200,000 gathered at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., and millions more who watched on television. With passion and precision, he proclaimed his vision of a nation free of racism, declaring, "Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children." What came to be known as the "I Have A Fream" speech was a high point in the public career of Martin Luther King Jr. But it was also a turning point in his personal life, as he embarked on a controversial, often lonely, struggle to redefine and redirect the movement he had helped lead. The quest would not end until his assassination in Memphis, Tenn., five years later. For the 75th anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr.'s birth (Jan. 15, 1929), AMERICAN EXPERIENCE presents "CITIZEN KING". This documentary - by AFRICANS IN AMERICA filmmakers Orlando Bagwell and Noland Walker - explores the last five years of King's life by drawing on the personal recollections and eyewitness accounts of friends, associates, journalists, law enforcement officers, and historians. Framed by the Lincoln Memorial speech and his assassination, CITIZEN KING traces King's efforts to recast himself by embracing causes beyond the civil rights movement - to "transform and restructure the whole of American society," as he put it. His decision would alienate many of his closest friends and further inflame his enemies. King took repeated leaps of faith as he cast aside political caution in favor of following a path that would make more difficult - and dangerous - his already challenging life. andmoreagain, - ------------------- simon PS: dubya ain't got no business being in Atlanta, today. what HYPOCRISY! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:17:02 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! >Maybe Joni was telling Dylan what time it isn't or just merely underlining that the times they are a changing. Yours (metaphysically spinning into the vortex)Anita< I love this! Kate spinning happily along into the metaphysical vortex with you.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:30:00 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Pick a category, any category (NJC) In a message dated 15/01/2004 21:09:39 GMT Standard Time, chris@hatstand.org writes: << Does anyone else have some examples of blatantly odd categorisation of music? >> Simply Red under 'Soul'? Kenny G under 'Jazz'? Shania Twain under 'Country'? Britney Spears under 'Singers' Slipknot under 'Easy Listening' Frank Zappa under 'Tunes The Milkman Can Whistle' Michael Bolton under 'Can Be Listened To Without Evoking Murderous Thoughts' Azeem in London NP: Scritti Politti [how appropriate!] - Anomie & Bonhomie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:39:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: [NortheastJonifest] NJC - Willy The Shake in Houston Cute photo of you both donna! I hear the mucky duck is the happenin place to play...or listen...did ya'll do any tunes yourself? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:17:50 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: (it IS!) SONG TO A SEAGULL! yesterday, David Marine wrote with an inquiry > ---------- > Subject: ... and the name of her first album ? > > Hey List: > > > > Also, at the end of the article cited, Joni talks about her first album: > > "Joni Mitchell was released in March 1968, and the first thing to say about it > is to confirm that the title was Joni Mitchell. The album's cover, a painting > by Mitchell surrounding a tiny photograph of her, features a grouping of birds > that spell out the words "Song To A Seagull," the title of one of the songs. > Not only has this led many people to call the album Song To A Seagull, but > several reputable rock'n' roll history books (one example being The Rolling > Stone Rock & Roll Encyclopedia, edited by Jon Pareles and Patricia Romanowski > [Rolling Stone Press/ Summit Books, 1983]) list two different albums, one called > Joni Mitchell, the other Song To A Seagull. > > Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. "People can't see them," > she said of the birds, "and the 'L' [of Seagull] is cut off, 'cause even the > graphic department, they didn't see it either. It's called Joni Mitchell." > ---------- David then commented > Well, this is news to me. > I always thought it had been decided that the title was STAS. > Now I am, again, confused. David, you are correct. it has been established as 'a matter of fact' that the title of Joni Mitchell's 1st Album is SONG TO A SEAGULL. Always Has Been. as i'm sure you recall, this subject has come up before on a number of occasions. here's the information i posted last time around. To: joni@smoe.org From: simon@icu.com Subject: Song To A Seagull Date: late 1999 recently while catching up on a 2-month backlog of JMDL Digests, i noticed that the subject of Joni's 1st Album Title (#RS-6293) had come up again. this is inevitable as our JMDL community continues to grow and expand with the addition of new members. so, once again from the Archives ... RE: Joni Mitchell's 1st Album, titled!: "SONG TO A SEAGULL" originally posted to the JMDL Digest Subject: SONG TO A SEAGULL Date: Fri. Aug. 15, 1997 previously, this past May, there was a thread dealing with questions and the confusion surrounding the title of Joni Mitchell's first album. on Fri. May 2, 1997 - DM posted ... > ---------- > Joni has said the first album is called "JONI MITCHELL". In his > interview with Wally, David Crosby says she was originally going > to call it SONG TO A SEAGULL but changed her mind. > ---------- "changed her mind?" NOT really, but i guess that's what Crosby thinks. later that day ... Bradley Fors posted ... > ---------- > Lastly, It doesn't say "SONG TO A SEAGULL" on the spine of the record. > Thus perhaps the confusion. But lets attempt to put the raging debate > to rest. The LP is called "SONG TO A SEAGULL". > ---------- Bradley is correct here, but it didn't end the debate. on Sun. May 4, 1997 DM posted ... > ---------- > I'll dig up the article where Joni says flatly "It was called Joni > Mitchell." In any case, whatever she was originally going to call > it, it IS called 'Joni Mitchell'. The authoritative source would > be the Library of Congress, and that's what it's called there. > > If you go by the LP cover, it should be called 'Soni to a Seagui' > because at least on my copy, the G and the LL's are cut off. > ---------- also on May 4, 1997 ... > ---------- > Title mystery solved > > The following is from the incredible 1995 Goldmine article, > "Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh." > > 'Joni Mitchell' was released in March 1968, and the first thing to say > about it is to confirm that the title was JONI MITCHELL. The album's > cover, a painting by Mitchell surrounding a tiny photograph of her, > features a grouping of birds that spell out the words SONG TO A SEAGULL > the title of one of the songs ... this led many people to call > the album SONG TO A SEAGULL. > > Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. "People can't > see them," she said of the birds, "and the L is cut off, cause even > the graphics department, they didn't see it either. > It's called 'Joni Mitchell'. > ---------- the Goldmine article is a cover-story, with a fantastic photo of Joni. although it does say Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh on the cover, the article is actually titled; "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo". though they may be authoritative in a number of areas, the Library of Congress is NOT the final authority on LP/CD titles. frankly i doubt whether they do anything more than list the title from the spine of an album or compact disc. NO, the authoritative source of an LP/CD title is the musician whose name is on the cover and/or the record company issuing the recording in the first place. in the case of Joni Mitchell's first album, the record company screwed up. the correct title SONG TO A SEAGULL never appeared on any vinyl edition. it also wasn't included on the first CD versions issued, although this oversight/mistake has finally been corrected. the remastered CD version is clearly identified as SONG TO A SEAGULL on both the spine of the jewel box and the face of the CD. [remastered *artwork* only]. OK: so that's where the thread ended. let's see if this can be cleared up once-and-for-all, to everyone's satisfaction. first off, DM does quote the Goldmine article accurately. it appeared in Issue #380 ~ Vol.21, No.4 ~ Feb. 17, 1995. now i've read Goldmine for years. their articles are well researched and well written. they also correct mistakes. that brings me to the first of six sources of information. > ---------- 1. GOLDMINE MAGAZINE ~ April 14, 1995 ~ LETTERS TO THE EDITOR. the following letter from William Ruhlmann, author of "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo", was printed with the boldface header ... BOTH SIDES NOW: MITCHELL and GEFFEN CLARIFY POINTS IN ARTICLE Two of the more careful readers of my article, "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo" (issue 380), were Joni Mitchell and David Geffen. Both of them have contacted me subsequently, and with their help i am able to clarify a few points made in the article. The article contained a description of the confusion surrounding the title of Mitchell's 1968 debut album. I pointed out that JONI MITCHELL is the 'official' title. Mitchell, however, wishes to note that SONG TO A SEAGULL was the title she intended for the album, though somehow that intention got lost when the album was being pressed, and the error has never been corrected. ----------------------------- 2. ICE MAGAZINE ~ September 1996 ~ The CD WATCHDOG Column We received a postcard mailed by Ben Testa of Brooklyn, NY, stating simply. "Some of the early Joni Mitchell catalog titles have stickers on them, saying they're repackaged with original artwork. Are they worth buying, and are they remastered as well?" But first things first. To find out about the new artwork, we contacted Robbie Cavolina, a freelance art director who works closely with Mitchell and who recently won a Grammy Award for designing her TURBULENT INDIDO CD. Robbie then says ..... "One important note to make, which isn't widely known: her first album is not called JONI MITCHELL, it's called SONG TO A SEAGULL, and it's correctly titled now. It's so nice to see these looking like they're supposed to." ------------------------- 3. CALIFORNIA ROCK - CALIFORNIA SOUND, (c) 1978 by Anthony Fawcett ~ Photographs by Henry Diltz In addition to an interesting Joni Chapter "Searching For Clarity", this book also contains a discography listing Joni Mitchell's albums thru 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter'. it starts off with ... SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1967 (Reprise) --------------------------------- 4. CLUB 47 ~ CAMBRIDGE, MA. ~ Jan. 4, 1968 JONI: Introducing the song 'The Pirate Of Penance' says ... "I'm finally going to make -- I uh. I just signed my contract with Reprise, that's Repreese not Reprize, i learned how to say it right too, and uh -- it should be coming out some time this spring. and it should be kind of fun too, because it's -- well it's sort of a story. it's going to be called SONG TO A SEAGULL, which is a story, and all of the songs that make up the record repeat that story. and in the part where we take you down to the seaside -- it's called out of the city and down to the seaside section of the record -- some very strange stories of the sea happen and among them is a song that i wrote about -- well i don't really know what it's about. it's sort of, it's almost like suddenly in the song a character appeared to me that should be a dominate character some day in an operetta -- and so because it was sort of like a lead character in an operetta -- i took liberty with Gilbert & Sullivan and -- stole part of their title. i call this The Pirate Of Penance. i hope you like bad puns too." ------------------------------ 5. BILLBOARD MAGAZINE ~ December 9, 1995 "A Portrait Of The Artist" by Timothy White "Few musicians of her stature have undergone more private and public trials. At the beginning, she had to fend off imitators and detractors of both sexes, plus the persistent jealousy of an early '60s folk school whose post-Dylan commercial/artistic strides she almost singlehandedly eclipsed with three hugely influential Reprise albums (Joni Mitchell: SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1968; CLOUDS, 1969; LADIES OF THE CANYON, 1970)" ------------------------------------------- Last but *not* Least 6. THE 1969 WARNER-REPRISE RECORD SHOW Reprise #PRO-336 (2 LP Sampler - released 1970) this was the first in a series of 2-LP samplers sold by mail-order. it contained one song and two short (0:40) song introductions. the liner notes say ... "The Fiddle And The Drum." A song about wars fought by men and nations, sung without accompaniment for the very simple reason that Joni offered to her sold-out Carnegie Hall audience before she begins to. From her CLOUDS LP (Reprise 6341), which was preceded by SONG TO A SEAGULL (Reprise 6293) and followed by LADIES OF THE CANYON (6376). -------------- seems to me this last paragraph settles the issue *BY Itself*. here we have Warner-Reprise Records clearly identifying Reprise #RS-6293 _as_ SONG TO A SEAGULL _in_ 1970! i rest my case, thank-you. - ------- simon - ------- 1998 Update ~ Additions: 7. HITS & MISSES CD Inserts lists all Joni's Albums w/cover photos. 1st album (Reprise #6293) listed *as* Song To A Seagull. 8. The JONI MITCHELL SONGBOOK: Complete volume 1 (1966-1970) (c) 1974 Siquomb Publishing Corp. contains all songs from Joni's 1st -3- albums, listed as follows: SONG TO A SEAGULL CLOUDS LADIES OF THE CANYON 9. "JONI MITCHELL" by Leonore Fleischer (c) 1976 All references to Joni's 1st album are _as_ SONG TO A SEAGULL. (pg. #12,21,57,65) 10. Magazine Article, ZIGZAG 69 ~ feb. 1977: Joni Mitchell says, "The first album _was called_ SONG TO A SEAGUL and i used that as a continuity. i found that SONG TO A SEAGUL was a summary of all the songs i'd ever written." 11. ROLLING STONE Magazine, March 4, 1971: "New York gave her the inspiration to write the songs on her first album SONG TO A SEAGULL, produced by David Crosby. The cover had fine pen-and-ink drawings and Joni's picture was on the back, from a fisheye lens on a New York backstreet." 12. MELODY MAKER, Sept. 28, 1968: "JONI, The Seagull From Saskatoon" by Karl Dallas "And the first song in the album, "I Had A King" is about the breakup of my marriage." "The album is one of the few I can think of - the others that spring to mind are "Sgt. Pepper" and the Mothers of Invention LPs - which successfully hangs together as a complete whole." The title, written so subtly by the wings of flying seagulls on the cover that few people notice it; is SONG TO A SEAGULL. The first side is called "I Came To The City" and the second side is called "Out of the City and Down to the Seaside." Both are lines from songs on the second side. 1999 Update ~ Additions: 13. HIT PARADER Magazine, January 1970 "The Mitchell Mystique and Minnie Mouse" by Brigatta The other thing that mainly bothered me about SONG TO A SEAGULL, a kind of adolescent sentimentality and slick-magazine banality in some of the ideas -- is almost indescernible now -- In fact I am amazed at the amount of emotional growth evidenced by Joni Mitchell's songs in the relatively short period of one year. Joni still isn't exactly the meat and potatoes of pop, but a surprising amount of the content of "Clouds" stick to your ribs. 14. MANSION ON THE HILL, by Fred Goodman (p) April 1998 Settling into Hollywood's Sunset Studios to record SONG TO A SEAGULL while Buffalo Springfield was there working on what would prove to be their final album, Mitchell eagerly introduced Roberts and Crosby to Neil Young. 15. CRAWDADDY MAGAZINE, August 1968 "The Way We Are Today: Earth Opera and Joni Mitchell" by Paul Williams Joni Mitchell's album (which has a name "Song To A Seagull") is divided into two parts -- I Came To The City & Out Of The City and Down to The Seaside -- and ten parts -- her songs. this issue also featured a subscription ad with a free record offer. here's the text. Joni Mitchell's * free ... SONG TO A SEAGULL album * this offer is brought to you by Warner Bros. Records (who appreciate the publicity) and CRAWDADDY Magazine (who needs the bread). for now ~ take care, - ------- simon TODAY: January 15, 2004 i'd like to point out that i've come across a number of other references to SONG TO A SEAGULL as the 1st LP Title since 1999, in articles from the late 1960s and early 1970s. for a number of reasons, i just stopped taking note of them. Case Closed! andmoreagain, - ------------- simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:21:12 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords You know Les, your email brings up an interesting thing I read about Joni, specifically the part where you say what makes Joni's songs so complex are the Tunings.....I read somewhere that she was thinking about not ever performing live again at some point because she had to tune her guitar so many times....until she got some sort of device that helps her tune her guitar automatically....I can't remember what it was called, but I know it helps her tune the guitar. LOL I wish I could be more specific but I am not very well versed in music education, as it were. Do you know which device I am referring to? Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:32:41 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords I have to say I also think that Paprika Plains was a BEAUTIFUL song, even though someone I knew once who was a Joni fan told me they did not particularly care for that song....Too bad really, I think it's a GREAT one. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:38:19 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Songs I would like Britney to cover In a message dated 1/14/2004 8:44:11 AM Central Standard Time, jamiezubairi@yahoo.co.uk writes: > > 1) Ray's Dad's Cadillac > 2)Talk To Me (I just want to hear her say ' 'Til I > pissed a tequila anaconda the full length of the > parking lot' > 3) Sire Of Sorrow > > > > > ok, so I'm chuckling to myself here... > > OMG how I would LOVE to hear Britney sing the line about pissing the tequlia anaconda! I am not a big Britney fan, but I would DEFINITELY buy that album just to hear her do it! LOL however knowing her prima donna self she probably doesn't even know who Joni Mitchell is. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:50:13 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Well since everyone is taking a stab at what albums and period of Joni's music they like most....I will add a little something to the discussion.... Even though it isn't my favorite album, (BLUE is my favorite), I think that For The Roses is unfortunately one of the most underrated of Joni's albums, and in my humble opinion, one of her best. Seems to me that whenever I hear people talking about her or read things about her, etc...VERY RARELY do I seem to see songs from that wonderful album mentioned....and that's too bad because there are some GREAT ones on it. It just has a certain quality about it....And shoot even a social commentary song to boot....Banquet. And man I think it's just genius the way she works eating a meal into a metaphor about the way the world works! She's just awesome, what can you say? In my humble opinion, again...LOL I think that her metaphors are some of the best things about her songwriting, as well as her imagery. I'm sure many of you will agree. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:52:17 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 In a message dated 1/14/2004 4:06:14 PM Central Standard Time, Kardinel@aol.com writes: > > I have been reading the list with some interest lately. About 3 years ago I > subscribed to the list and I wrote something about Joni. I can't remember > what > but was promptly told I was "a starry eyed fan" or something like that. I > was > very hurt. I don't often write in but wish I could sometimes.I really care > about Joni Mitchell and her work. There is an "in crowd" feeling.. I > understand > how that can come about but maybe the list needs to consider it. > > Well as for myself, I just joined this group and I honestly can't say that anyone has made me feel unwelcome.......In fact they seem to pretty much be helpful...but I haven't been around long. So we shall see I guess....Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:57:09 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: oh God -- now with Joni content! In a message dated 1/14/2004 4:14:30 PM Central Standard Time, lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: > (I think you're overgeneralizing a bit with the "liberal intolerance > for viewpoints other than their own," but that's certainly true of some > liberals, just as its true of some conservatives I just realized I've been saying a lot, but i had to comment on this one too, I am sorry but I have to agree....I think it is a generalization to say liberals are intolerant of viewpoints other than their own....Some of the MOST intolerant people I have EVER known of other people's opinions and viewpoints were conservatives. In fact it seems to me as if they think everyone is "bad," or "evil," or "sinful" if they don't agree with them.....So I think they are the intolerant ones. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:02:40 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! I'll play lori! I've been singing the same song in my head for some time now, but a different verse... Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:08:26 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords You know I have yet another question to ask of everyone on the list...Don't you find it interesting that there so many successful artists who were self-taught on the guitar? Joni, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Wynonna Judd....there are lots....While they all may not be of the same talent scale, or whatever, it is still interesting to me to realize all of the self taught players out there and GREAT songwriters who never really had any formal training...Anyone else ever notice this? Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:24:41 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Well I think the reason they list Joni as a folk artist is because that IS where she started....And I think her first two are pretty folkie. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:27:59 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! OH BOY I Just love you two ladies for mentioning my favorite Joni song...California....no one ever seems to talk about that one...But I love that song the most out of all the songs she's ever done! Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:25:18 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game & Simon (SJC) I'll play. Oh and deep in the night Our appetites find us Release us and bind us Deep in the night While madmen sit up building bombs And making laws and bars They'd like to slam free choice behind us Actually the whole song is great, and nails us all between the eyes. The best christians I ever met are the ones who actually tried to be like Jesus Christ. Who taught people to be born again or as the greek says to metaphor to change to rethink the way things have always been done. I think Dr. King said it best (with thanks to Simon for helping us remember): The Negro and the Constitution (in The Cornellian, May 1944) We cannot be truly Christian people so long as we flaunt the central teachings of Jesus: brotherly love and the Golden Rule. The spirit of Lincoln still lives; that spirit born of the teachings of the Nazarene, who promised mercy to the merciful, who lifted the lowly, strengthened the weak, ate with publicans, and made the captives free. In the light of this divine example, the doctrines of demagogues shiver in their chaff. America experiences a new birth of freedom in her sons and daughters; she incarnates the spirit of her martyred chief. Their loyalty is repledged; their devotion renewed to the work He left unfinished. My heart throbs anew in the hope that inspired by the example of Lincoln, imbued with the spirit of Christ, they will cast down the last barrier to perfect freedom. And I with my brother of blackest hue possessing at last my rightful heritage and holding my head erect, may stand beside the Saxon--a Negro--and yet a man! I tired of war, I'm tired of laws, I'm tired of......... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:26:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! whenever i am away too long & feeling homesick it is the song i love to sing... OH BOY I Just love you two ladies for mentioning my favorite Joni song...California....no one ever seems to talk about that one...But I love that song the most out of all the songs she's ever done! Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:19:59 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: More on Joni's tunings, etc. << From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On inventing chords This is an interesting discussion. I've got 2 cents to give... First, I think Joni became interested in open tunings because they allowed her polio-affected left hand to create chords from less complicated shapes. With these open tunings, rather than having to use three fingers to create, say, a standard C chord she was able to get the same effect by simply laying one finger across all the strings. She then began experimenting with all kinds of different string pitches, tuning her guitar to the "sonic references of the day". As a result, when she used the same left hand shapes she got a completely different sound. I think it's important to know that Joni does not read music and doesn't really know a 3rd or a 5th from a hole in the ground - nor does she really care. So, I think it's misleading to say that she brilliantly invented all these "weird jazz chords". I mean, she did not consciously say "if I add an F# here and a B flat here I'll come up with this great diminished 7th minor suspended 9th inverted chord." Rather, her thought process was probably "ooohhh... when I tune this string down a bit I love the way it sounds!" When she began playing with others, then, it was left up to the musicians who knew enough theory to say "damn... let's see... that chord's got a 6th and a 9th and a..." Take "Amelia" for example. As complex as it is musically from a theory standpoint, Joni really only uses 2 or 3 left hand shapes throughout the whole song. The theoretical complexity arises out of the tuning of the guitar. I'm not diminshing her brilliance in any way, she was a pioneer of the guitar no doubt. I just think that a focus on her ability to create brilliant jazz chords is looking at it from the wrong perspective. But what the hell do I know? :-) Les >> Les: I think you know a LOT... and I REALLY enjoyed your thoughts and explanation above. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:31:34 -0600 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: Pick a category, any category (NJC) Chris wrote: > Does anyone else have some examples of blatantly odd categorisation > of music? I've seen Bonnie Raitt in the "Country" section....:>( Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:51:21 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Person-to-person posts (njc) As someone who's started a number of conversations about "the state of the list," and what I think should be the character of it, I can't help but throw my two cents into the current discussion. I was trying not to, and then I had a thought I wanted to share. It seems to me that what most people object to, and what in my opinion should be considered out-of-character for an international mailing list of 800 members such as the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, are person-to-person communications for which the JMDL is used as the delivery vehicle. These person-to-person messages may take the form of flames in a debate, or they may take the form of individuals wishing each other well or showing support for one another, as is the case with the happy birthday posts. (I don't mind the happy birthdays any more. I've grown to accept them as being a part of the "community thing" (read: "in crowd," to many of the 800 reading this list) that many cherish here. There are those who do find them tedious, though, as a respected subscriber reminded us earlier when he said he is more interested in political content than in a plethora of birthday greetings.) So, it occurred to me to suggest that--rather than institute additional filters and such--we should try to avoid addressing an individual when writing to a list of 800 people. Private emails are more appropriate for name-calling, flames, and, maybe, even happy birthdays and words of comfort. As for political and other hot-button debates, if we take issue with another poster's contentions, we can address the content of the offending post without addressing the writer directly. We can refer to the writer and re-post excerpts from that person's post, so as to reply to the points made (or not made, as the case may be), but there is no good reason I can see, in a debate directed to a large audience, to rebut as though we are writing to only the poster with whom we (may vehemently) disagree. Why don't we, instead, argue against others' contentions and opinions to the best of our abilities while addressing the group as a whole? Best, (Not in Boston, thank God) Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:58:18 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: On Inventing chords --- Musicloverrick@aol.com wrote: > Well since everyone is taking a stab at what albums > and period of Joni's > music they like most....I will add a little > something to the discussion.... > Even though it isn't my favorite album, (BLUE is my > favorite), I think that > For The Roses is unfortunately one of the most > underrated of Joni's albums, and > in my humble opinion, one of her best. Seems to me > that whenever I hear > people talking about her or read things about her, > etc...VERY RARELY do I seem to > see songs from that wonderful album mentioned....and > that's too bad because > there are some GREAT ones on it. "For the roses" just happens to be one of my favourites, if not THE favourite. That is true for a number of reasons. Maybe it's because of the time it came out. According to jmdl.com it was released in October 1972. I thought it might have been a bit later in the year, or maybe it wasn't released here in Canada until a bit later, or maybe i didn't buy it the first day it came out, or maybe we had an early snow, but I remember my first listen to it while watching snow falling outside the window of the place my then-boyfriend was living. I was 19, so that's a good age for "best" things. Joni's piano- and guitar-playing are in top form. And then the songbook came out and it was the first one that actually had alternate tunings in it and all of a sudden, I could play Joni songs on my guitar that really SOUNDED like Joni songs. There are probably more reasons why, but those are just a few reasons why FTR is very special to me. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #26 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)