From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #25 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, January 15 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 025 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album ["Marian Russel] Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Re: oh god njc ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] A bit of PC, ha! njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album [Deb Messling <] Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni @ Jonifest NJC [Steve Polifka ] Re: oh god njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album [AzeemAK@aol.co] Re: Leaving because Jackson Browne was dissed....(NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: To be or not to be? njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) [] Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! [Steve Polifka ] Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea ["Kate Bennett" ] NJC political posts ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:01:38 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800, Randy Remote wrote: >If you are talking about a song that modulates into a different key for >the rest of the song (a common composer 'trick') that may be true. That's what I was talking about with reference to the guitar songs. >(Actually "Fiddle and the Drum" does this too) Yes, FATD does modulate (as do some of the piano songs), but she sings this one a capella - without the guitar. I was speaking of her guitar songs only. >But I would say off the top of my head that a majority of her songs >modulate out of the parent key at some point, and that is one of the >things that makes them interesting. Even her earliest songs like >"Urge For Going" did this. Hopefully I'm using the term 'modulate' >properly. No, none of her guitar songs (that I can think of) modulate out of the parent key - not even UFG. Sometimes the chord progressions are unusual. Sometimes the parent key is not always necessarily the tonic. But her chord progressions are fairly standard for the most part, it's just the chords themselves that are unusual, because of the suspensions, 7ths, 9ths, 13ths, etc. Apart from this, though, and not forgetting the melodic genius of most of her songs, sometimes her vocal harmonies are strange, too (e.g., double fourths, fifths) - these also lend beauty to her compositions and make them sound more interesting (at least to me) than much of the popular music of the last 30 years. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:26:46 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:49:16 -0800, David Marine wrote: > I know that Joni has said that her post polio > syndrome made it difficult for her to shape her > left hand into some of the standard configurations, > and this was one factor that influenced her as she > created her open tunings ( > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?>id=115 > ..... Isn't it possible or probable that the PPS has > influenced her picking and strumming styles also? Could be true, David. I personally find it more comfortable to play rhythmically. But having played in a R&R band for a short time myself, I do think it makes sense that she moved to a more rhythmic style when she started playing with other musicians. Fingerpicking just doesn't work when you've got drums going on. After I posted yesterday, I thought about some of the beautiful guitar songs that are post FTR - e.g., Just Like This Train, Harry's House, Hejeira, Be Cool, The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey, Passion Play (AYK,TMBM). I didn't mean to diss the guitar playing on all the post FTR songs! It does take ingenuity and talent to pull them off, not to mention to compose them in the first place! I'd like to qualify somewhat what I said yesterday by saying that IMO the fingerpicking on Joni's early guitar compositions is stunningly beautiful and complex and more difficult to learn than a lot of the later, post FTR, stuff - and that I admire the early guitar work more because it requires more technique and attention to duplicate it. I find the rhythmic guitar songs easier to learn and to play - they are not as demanding of my attention. >Also, at the end of the article cited above, Joni talks about her >first album: ... >> ... Not only has this led many people to call >> the album Song To A Seagull, but several reputable >> rock 'n' roll history books (one example being The >> Rolling Stone Rock & Roll Encyclopedia, edited by >> Jon Pareles and Patricia Romanowski [Rolling Stone Press >> / Summit Books, 1983]) list two different albums, >> one called Joni Mitchell, the other Song To A Seagull. >> Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. >> "People can't see them," she said of the birds, "and the >> 'L' [of Seagull] is cut off, 'cause even the graphic >> department, they didn't see it either. It's called Joni >> Mitchell." > Well, this is news to me. I always thought it had > been decided that the title was STAS. Now I am, again, > confused. Oh, no!!! Me, too!!! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:34:20 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords I said: > Sometimes the parent key is not always necessarily the tonic. what I meant to say was that sometimes the tuning is not the parent key (or tonic). Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:41:59 -0000 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Re: oh god njc It is typical of you Lori... You should know what I mean.... we shared a room fer chrissakes..... Please read interpretation below.... interspersed with your message - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Fye" To: "Lucy Hone" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Re: oh god njc > Lucy wrote things like: > > > i am a Brit, I have made some REAL friends here, not just virtual > > jossers and teasers. LUCY SAYS> LORI AND ANY OTHERS who require translation.. BRIT= from the UK.. a JOsser is a joker.. a teaser is someone who teases? in this case by virtue of being one thing on the net and not at all the same face to face.. So in American.. "Hey y'all on this list y'all are real," > and ... > > > NOt that you are not welcome here, only here is a bit more open and > > wrestly and jostly and REAL? > LUCY EXPLAINS.. the main list is abut free for all discussion where people do not always resort to highbrow debate and in AMERICAN "Whaaaaaaaat? if you cayunts stayunds the heeeut, stayuh outta tha kitchin hunneh" > and ... > > > I do not want to see any more slanging matches LUCY SAYS... this means out and out word exchange that goes beyond the subject in point or discussion.. and in AMERICAN.."you shut your nasty mouth... dont you go bringing THAT here... UH UH UH (to be said with hand on hip and one finger waving in the face of the person you are admonishing) > > and ... > > > But I am still here, still reading what I can be arsed to read LUCY SAYS... I read what I can be bothered to read from the list and in AMERICAN.. "me? Ah jes pickses and cheewses whats ah wunts ta read" > Good god, Lucy! Can you please repeat all that in the American > language? ; ) > > > Yes, that's my JoniFest roomie ... > > > Lucy... feeling VERY unqueenly and in need of nicotine but NOT giving > > in (well not for as long as I can manage to keep these patches > > going...how the hell do you light them anyway? > > ... who never ceases to crack me up! (And you GO, girl!) > The translation of this is I HAVE GIVEN UP SMOKING AND IT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD TO DO THIS BUT HAS TO BE DONE.... GOOD DAY ALL QUEEN-ISH LUCY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:59:46 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) Hi and a Happy New Year to you all. I've posted on this subject a time or two over the years and definitely fall into the camp of 'let it be what it is and what it will become'. It concerns me, of course, that during the heated and sometimes invective-loaded exchanges across partisan lines that good relations can be sacrificed. But that this may happen is the responsibility of those who institute and engage in these exchanges. The price of passionately held and tendered beliefs and understandings. I'm sorry for those who come along as newbies and find the kind of exchange taking place that makes them reconsider staying with it though. That's a sad thing because it's a very special place. At the risk of fuelling the eroneous notion of in-crowdism, I think this is an incredibly fertile place. There isn't much that's lame or half-assed about it. What do I get out of being on the List? Sometimes not so very much at all. I'm a digest reader so I liken it to taking a break from work, going down to a cafi where some people I know better than others present are yacking about this and that. Sometimes I listen in, sometimes I contribute and other times I ignore (delete button). When I'm done, I get back to work or whatever. Not 'central' by any means but heavens I'd miss it if it went under new management or had some arcane 'door policy'. Les - London stylee(well into his second week of a very 'productive' cold....eeeeoooh.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:00:23 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) In a message dated 15/01/2004 09:00:45 GMT Standard Time, LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk writes: << What do I get out of being on the List? Sometimes not so very much at all. I'm a digest reader so I liken it to taking a break from work, going down to a cafi where some people I know better than others present are yacking about this and that. Sometimes I listen in, sometimes I contribute and other times I ignore (delete button). When I'm done, I get back to work or whatever. Not 'central' by any means but heavens I'd miss it if it went under new management or had some arcane 'door policy'. >> What a great analogy, Les! For my part, I wouldn't support the introduction of a PC tag; I agree with those who've said there are enough alternative choices already. The JC/NJC tagging must stay, as it is clearly fundamental to the whole meaning of the list; the rest of the possible differentiations would detract from the list, in my opinion. There are a lot of posts that I delete unread, especially during the recent round of discussions of PNAC etc. And I used to be on the digest, where admittedly it's not quite as straightforward to delete unwanted posts, but honestly, it's not that hard to just scroll through a posts or indeed many posts. There are some people whose viewpoints are so divergent from my own that I choose not to subject myself to them - and it doesn't take a huge effort to get to know where this kind of selection process will operate. Come on people, in addition to the vituperative posters taking responsibility for what they post, the rest of us can take responsibility for what we choose to read. Azeem in London NP: The Smiths - Strangeways Here We Come ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:14:31 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: A bit of PC, ha! njc For those here in the UK who are concerned about Blair's support for Bush, and for those over the water wondering about it, here's a very interesting article which casts some light on it... http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1123444,00.html Azeem in London NP: Supergrass - Moving (one of the best singles of the 90s) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:42:35 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Oh no, the STAS controversy again! Here's the story: Joni *intended* to call the album "Song to a Seagull," and even used that title to describe the upcoming album to a concert audience (tape of which is widely available). However, as she noted later, the record company didn't notice the graphics and called the album "Joni Mitchell." At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its official title. I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, too. Can anyone verify that? Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:48:46 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Extry extry, read all about it: http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2067633 Bob NP: Earth, Wind & Fire, "Gratitude" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:45:28 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Joni @ Jonifest NJC Well, I had this dream last night that Joni was at Jonifest. We had a 'picnic' of sorts with long tables and Joni was seated at the Guest of Honor table w/ a few of her friends. All of the JMDLers were oh so polite, with a few going up to her here and there and chatting a bit. She knew who some of us were by reading some posts someone had given her. (!) Like Ashara, and that SCJoniGuy person, and she asked someone, "Who plays my music on the piano? Steve something..." Like she was willing to do a song or two at the performance time. So I think it was Chris Marshall who dragged me to the table and mentioned something about the two of us being able to handle whatever song she had mentioned. I stood there wanting to kick Marshall- or kiss him, I don't remember which! ;-) I was so nervous! She was gracious and beautiful, and gave us photo and autograph opportunities...Many of us just oggled her from a distance, chatting among ourselves. I woke up before the evening performance! So who is sending the invitation??? Steve, hoping this dream comes true... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 06:50:00 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: oh god njc > UH UH UH (to be said with hand on hip and one finger waving in the > face of the person you are admonishing) LO-fecking-L, Lucy, on ALL those "translations"!!! This is one of the thousand reasons that I love you! > The translation of this is I HAVE GIVEN UP SMOKING AND IT IS > SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD TO DO THIS BUT HAS TO BE DONE.... I'm proud of you, LuLu!! Lori, who wonders what it might be like to be in the same place with Lucy and Bob Murphy (Smurph) while they're both trying to quit ... !!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:12:09 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album In a message dated 15/01/2004 13:47:34 GMT Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its official title. >> Well, FWIW, I've always regarded this album as being untitled (or self-titled, which I think comes to the same thing0; my vinyl copy is the 1975 Reprise reissue, on which it is clear that the album is not called Song To A Seagull. And of course it was (and still is) common for debut albums to be self-titled. Heard Help Me on the radio just now, which is always a lovely tonic. Azeem in London NP: Amy Winehouse - You Sent Me Flying. The more I listen to this album (Frank), the more convinced I am that this young woman is a major, major talent. Fantastic lyrics, superb arrangements, proper tunes and everything. She sings with an insolent insouciance and a huge amount of chutzpah and plays a nifty guitar too. Check it out dear peeps - Chris, Martin, have you heard her yet?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:16:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Leaving because Jackson Browne was dissed....(NJC) Darice stepped out of the Land of Lurkdom to post: > Someone left because Jackson was dissed?!?!?!?1....I thought I was > the biggest Jackson Browne fan(atic) on the jonilist.... > (Well , it got me to post ....) Thank goodness for that! It's nice to *see* you again, Darice! Yeah, someone left because JB was dissed -- if memory serves, the guy lived in India. (Anyone remember differently?) This makes me wonder if we have anyone in India to represent us. If not, we need to recruit! : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:15:55 -0600 From: Subject: RE: Let the list be the list (NJC) Hi, David! You wrote: "There is a Joni-only list for those who choose it. What is the sense of an unmoderated list that forbids political discourse? Who cares if people sometimes get upset, or if the tone changes? Any list will inevitably have qualities that will cause some people to eschew it." David, I don't think anyone's suggesting that political discourse be "forbidden" on the JMDL. The point I was making yesterday--and a good night's sleep has helped wonderfully in calming me down since--was that perhaps the point at which any given digest consists MAINLY of political posts written at an especially high level of vitriol and consisting mostly of ad hominem attacks between 2 or 3 or 4 people could be avoided in the future, as it is alienating to many. I'm just not sure how to do this. Calls for self-restraint do not appear to have worked, and besides, everybody's got a different idea about what "restraint" consists of, not to mention about what level of discussion is appropriate. A separate list for political content does not appear to have worked, probably for several good reasons: it's hard to know when to move a thread; those participating most enthusiastically may resent the idea of moving their thread, etc., etc., etc. Since, as Lori pointed out, many of us--most of the list, in fact--are on digest, the exhortation to "just delete" doesn't work, and my own reaction to having to scroll through 20-some political posts to get to 5 or so other posts that interest me, JC or not, is too often simply not to read the entire digest. Joni-Only doesn't cut it for many of us: we like the NJC that helps knit our community together, but not the scathing personal attacks on political topics between people whose minds are extremely unlikely ever to be changed, or (at times) the large volumes of material posted to the list on topics in which we may have zero interest. And, despite my positive comments yesterday about another group I belong to which features a bulletin-board set-up, I very much like the JMDL's existence as an e-mail list, as I think others do, too. So what to do? I still think the best option would be another filter, so that those of us who would prefer that our JMDL experience be unaccompanied by this type of heated--overheated?--political discourse could have that option, at least at times. I think the concerns about other potential areas of concern are red herrings: THIS is the topic that has surfaced as a serious problem, to the point of people unsubscribing in significant numbers, again and again. And of course, if such a filter were implemented, those who *want* such exchanges with their morning coffee get the option of having them. So everybody's happy: at least, until the next time the White Sox don't win the World Series. ;-) However, another, simpler option might be for everyone to go back to the introduction page and carefully read, once again, some of the guidelines for participation here that most of us saw when we first subscribed. As I mentioned above, the problem with this is that there are probably some 800-plus definitions on the list about what "appropriate" discourse consists of. But may I suggest that some additional questions to ask before hitting that "send" button might be: Is sending this helpful to me? Is it helpful to the person to whom I am directing it? Do 800 people world-wide, some of whom have absolutely no interest in American politics (or fill in the blank) REALLY want to read this? Am I trying to change Person X's mind? Is that likely to happen? Would a personal exchange with X be more appropriate (if X is open to that)? Is my tone here likely to make the JMDL a better place? Why *am* I sending this? And your (everyone's) questions may vary. The point is, with a quick, "count-to-ten" pre-send routine, many of these recent difficulties could be eliminated with no change to the list at all. To sum up, I'm a long-time list member. In seven years and three months, I have been unsubbed only once, for five minutes, while changing over to "digest" format. I don't want to leave. In the past, I myself have participated in political discussions! I appreciate Les's decision not to moderate, and I, too, shudder at the thought of a "censored" list. However, I think, and hope, that the suggestions I have made point to civility, not censorship. And, with the state of the world as it is, for whatever reasons it may have reached that point, we need all the civility and friendship that we can get. May we all continue to get both here. Take good care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:00:32 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > > Come on people, in > addition to the vituperative posters taking responsibility for what they post, the > rest of us can take responsibility for what we choose to read. Excellent point. I agree with that and with what other people have said about leaving the list as it is. I don't mind, and often do, add the words US POLITICS or PC to the subject line so that anyone not interested in the subject can easily skip it, or use a mail message filter to filter out those messages. It does feel strange sometimes to be going on and on about what's happening in U.S., when there are people all over the world reading the list. I imagine that some people would find what's happening here interesting, and others would not. And that goes for people in the U.S. also. The NJC rule works pretty well, but not perfectly, and the idea of adding another layer to the smoe sorting process seems to be looking for trouble to me. Further, being told (or having it suggested) that the discussion be taken to the separate PC list feels like admonishment (mild but still admonishment), or that what's being said doesn't have anything to do with real life, or with Joni! The most recent thing I read about Joni, and it must have been on this list, is that she has radios all over her house, each tuned to a different talk radio station, and that she's getting upset about what she hears. And then there's DED, and the early "America my friend" (what is the name of that song? it escapes me at the moment), and songs like "Banquet", or even "The Arrangement" -- you could have been more... She's been a political influence on me from the start. And, it's not because more people will be reading the political posts that keeps me on the main list, it's that everyone can join in if they choose to. It's one of the pleasures of this list, for me, to get information and insights from people who are not in the U.S. There's no other source for that, other than watching BBC news, and that's a news program with its own agenda, and not a particular person's views. And, one more thing, political discussions on this list have been heated, and I don't think there's any way to regulate that, other than having people comment when they think someone is out of line. It's hard for the passionately speaking (or writing) person to see how they're coming across, so getting an outside view can be helpful anytime, not just when politics are being discussed. With the U.S. election coming up in November, discussions are likely to get even more heated. Many people feel their and the country's survival is on the line, so it's difficult to be calm about the political situation here. News reports often talk about how the country is divided politically, and the discussions here illustrate that. I cannot believe, for example, that anyone with even half a brain would not look beyond what Bush says to find the reality (which usually does NOT match what he's said), and people who believe and trust Bush cannot believe I'd be so negative or cynical or whatever they might call me. So, there is a great divide, which shows up on the list. (There has been such a division in this country, I think, since the extremely conservative Republicans gained control of their party, and started dogging CLinton, among other things, and that started before this list did, and it doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon). So that's what I have to say about it all. I'm leaving soon to go see a speech by Al Gore on the environment, which is very timely considering I just read about strip mining in Appalachia being allowed to start up again by the Bush administration. Is there ANY industry or special interest that Dubya does not pay back, to the detriment of the people here??!! Gore's appearance is being sponsored by MoveOn.org, an exceptional group that I've received emails from since its beginning during the Clinton impeachment proceedings, so I guess that makes me a member. Contrary to the way the Republicans are now portraying MoveOn.org, and some right-wingers are believing based on what's been written on this list, they never scream and they are not hate mongers. So, the disagreements continue... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:34:16 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) Among the questions you suggest we ask ourselves before sending, the one I take issue with (would NOT ask myself) is "do 800 people world-wide... want to read this?" That is an invitation for me to be not myself and I respectfully decline that invitation. I like your other suggestions however, Mary. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:37:10 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: To be or not to be? njc Neil quipped: > Down with politics, I say. No more of it. What does > politics have to do with Joni Mitchell anyway? > > Politics no! > > New topic: > > Has anyone given Dog Eat Dog a listen lately? > > Love that album. Me too and LOL, Neil! Yes Kate, Neil's tongue was planted in his cheek when he wrote the above. Good man, Neil!! Lori, a DED head ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:39:37 -0600 From: Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) And I would never want you to do that, David. Perhaps a better form of my question, though, would be: Is this the proper forum for this particular expression of myself? After all, even "free speech" in the U.S. has certain limitations on it, based on time, place, and manner. Or, consider this thought the "no naked sunbathing" (or "no shirt/no shoes/no service") clause to the introductory guidelines. ;- ) The point is: there's a time and a place for everything. Our views on the list are probably going to differ on what "proper time, place and manner" are. All I'm asking is that people CONSIDER whether the JMDL is the most appropriate forum for their thoughts before hitting the "send" button. Best regards, and take care, Mary. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dflahm@aol.com To: blckcrow@chorus.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) Among the questions you suggest we ask ourselves before sending, the one I take issue with (would NOT ask myself) is "do 800 people world-wide... want to read this?" That is an invitation for me to be not myself and I respectfully decline that invitation. I like your other suggestions however, Mary. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:43:13 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Rules (subject to change by anyone): 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) It does not have to be about war but here's the one that's been stuck in my head lately: All the news of home you read More about the war And the bloody changes from "California" Is Joni complaining or merely observing? Next? Lori, hoping to engage everyone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:47:40 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Was: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English Lucy Hone sez: > So in American.. "Hey y'all on this list y'all are real," Minor correction, Lucy. "y'all" is singular, "all y'all" is plural. Best Regards, Buck...still a Texan, even though he's temporarily in Far (or is that "Fur?") Eastern New Mexico ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:56:13 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Was: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English Buck wrote: > Minor correction, Lucy. "y'all" is singular, "all y'all" is plural. < This is true, as Cindy from Alabama will confirm. Right, Cindy? Lori, who lived in Mississippi 3 times and in Texas for 12 years (now back in the East where she belongs -- for now) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:01:16 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English Where at Buck. Spent a good portion of my young life in Texico, New Mexico, close to Clovis. mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:14:46 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: NJC - Joni @ Jonifest & Jonifest 2004 Dear Hot Pants (Steve) and to everyone, Cool dream Steve! How wonderful it would be if it came true! Thanks for sharing it. Which reminds me, I wanted to let everyone know that registration for Jonifest 2004 is going great! I am surprised at how many have already signed up at this early date. Don't forget, beds are limited, but your space will be held as soon as your deposit is received!! But it's first come first served so don't be shy. For those of you who have never attended a jonifest, be sure to visit the JMDL home page and see pictures of previous fests. After seeing them you will certainly want to attend. Every year we had folks from all over the world. Just last year we had folks UK, South Africa, Belgium, Canada and all over the USA! How exciting! Can't wait to see you all there! SIGN UP TODAY!!! Woo hooo! Love Donna >>> Steve Polifka 1/15/2004 8:45:28 AM >>> Well, I had this dream last night that Joni was at Jonifest. We had a 'picnic' of sorts with long tables and Joni was seated at the Guest of Honor table w/ a few of her friends. All of the JMDLers were oh so polite, with a few going up to her here and there and chatting a bit. She knew who some of us were by reading some posts someone had given her. (!) Like Ashara, and that SCJoniGuy person, and she asked someone, "Who plays my music on the piano? Steve something..." Like she was willing to do a song or two at the performance time. So I think it was Chris Marshall who dragged me to the table and mentioned something about the two of us being able to handle whatever song she had mentioned. I stood there wanting to kick Marshall- or kiss him, I don't remember which! ;-) I was so nervous! She was gracious and beautiful, and gave us photo and autograph opportunities...Many of us just oggled her from a distance, chatting among ourselves. I woke up before the evening performance! So who is sending the invitation??? Steve, hoping this dream comes true... This message has been scanned by the E250. Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:17:52 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: To be or not to be? njc Oh duhhhhh! Silly me...i missed the ded part...excellent one neil! Kate cobweb head Neil quipped: > Down with politics, I say. No more of it. What does > politics have to do with Joni Mitchell anyway? > > Politics no! > > New topic: > > Has anyone given Dog Eat Dog a listen lately? > > Love that album. >>Me too and LOL, Neil! Yes Kate, Neil's tongue was planted in his cheek when he wrote the above. Good man, Neil!! Lori, a DED head< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:18:40 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Okay, I'll play! While madmen sit up building bombs They're making laws- and bars They're going to slam free choice behind us... Discussion? Hmmm. Written at least 18 years ago and still applies today. Joni saw alot and reported it. Now it's the same old shit with different players. Just look at what Bush and Bin Ladin and Al Queda (sp?) have done in the last few years. Scary. And I mean, scary... Steve At 08:43 AM 1/15/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Rules (subject to change by anyone): > >1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. > >2) Discuss if you choose (optional) > > >It does not have to be about war but here's the one that's been stuck >in my head lately: > >All the news of home you read >More about the war >And the bloody changes > >from "California" > >Is Joni complaining or merely observing? > > >Next? > >Lori, >hoping to engage everyone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:26:36 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: NJC - Joni @ Jonifest & Jonifest 2004 >>> "Cynthia Vickery" 1/15/2004 11:17:36 AM >>> donna - who's in charge of arranging workshops for JF04? Cindy, Thanks for your interest!! That would be Sue Cameron. Everyone who has volunteered to help for Jonifest 2004 is listed on the JMDL Registration Page, you can login there a get all fest information. Here is a link to get you started! http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/register/register.cfm Donna Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:23:04 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English Just right down the road, Mack, in Portales. I arrived here in December 2002 for a "one month visit" with my oldest son, who's stationed at Cannon AFB. My girlfriend lives in Clovis and has her CPA practice in Bovina, TX. We go through Texico nearly every day!! This part of the country takes some getting used to, but like a lot of things, it grows on ya! I like the small-town, rural pace of life here after two hectic years in San Francisco. Best Regards, bp - ----- Original Message ----- From: "mackoliver" To: "joni" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:01 AM Subject: Re: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English > Where at Buck. Spent a good portion of my young life in Texico, New Mexico, > close to Clovis. > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:27:42 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) How about just abiding by one of the Internet Golden Rules: No Flames! Not that you can't post something that might disturb others (like when people say For the Roses is not the greatest album ever made) but attacks upon someone's person. I think that would certainly solve the vast majority of our problems. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:39:09 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: NJC - oops, wrong link That was the wrong link for registration, use this one instead, sorry. http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/index.cfm Cindy, Thanks for your interest!! That would be Sue Cameron. Everyone who has volunteered to help for Jonifest 2004 is listed on the JMDL Registration Page, you can login there a get all fest information. Here is a link to get you started! Donna Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:56:17 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea As one who doesn't generally go for message board formats, for this jmdl pc idea I think it could work...if you have something to say that falls into this category you could post a quick note to the jmdl list (such as article 'democratic ticket to be dean/clark') to invite comments & post the link, then people could then jump over there to comment...it could work! >Actually, it would be possible to so a web-based replacement for the Yahoo group - yahoo's group web interface is sucky at the best of times, and all the advertising is a major PITA these days. I could potentially host something here if it needed a home and Les/whoever didn't want to host it.< Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:15:17 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English What a small world it sometimes is. I grew up in Texico, Muleshoe, and spent the last 10 years in Friona. Know Portales well as well. Great to meet you. mack > Just right down the road, Mack, in Portales. I arrived here in December > 2002 for a "one month visit" with my oldest son, who's stationed at Cannon > AFB. My girlfriend lives in Clovis and has her CPA practice in Bovina, TX. > We go through Texico nearly every day!! This part of the country takes some > getting used to, but like a lot of things, it grows on ya! I like the > small-town, rural pace of life here after two hectic years in San Francisco. > > Best Regards, > bp > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mackoliver" > To: "joni" > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:01 AM > Subject: Re: oh god njc, now Brit/Amurican English > > > > Where at Buck. Spent a good portion of my young life in Texico, New > Mexico, > > close to Clovis. > > > > mack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:23:17 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. "The old pick the wars We die in 'em To the beat of the beat of black wings" 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) Obviously very relevant today. I was reading in the paper this morning about the increasing suicide rates among soldiers, and also the troubles that they are having (and will continue to have) re-assimilating themselves into civilian life, dealing with anger like Killer Kyle. It all just seems so wasteful. I think she's doing both...I would think that any significant observation is going to be followed by a reaction. You observe someone driving haphazardly, and you get upset, or even scared. You observe high prices or a long line, or bad news in the paper, and you complain, and etc. And I'll also add this caveat as a Joni-only...it's VERY easy for this kind of thread to turn NJC in a snap, so to those of you who respond to it, if your message doesn't refer back to Joni's lyric, an NJC in the subject line is much appreciated. On a similar note, I am currently working in another office in town, helping them put together a proposal for Iraq work. Besides the 16,000 AK47's we have to get pricing for, one of the things I'm charged with getting quotes on is ambulances to be manufactured and supplied over the next 2 years. Initially the requisition called for 220 to be purchased, it has since been upped to 400. That just seemed sad to me. Bob NP: Electric Light Orchestra, "Evil Woman" PS: The reason I picked "Beat Of Black Wings" is that Covers Volume #49 starts off with a great new version of the song! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:28:09 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) Excellently expressed- this echoes my own views, too. David Marine wrote: > Hey List -- > > There is a Joni-only list for those who choose it. What is the sense of > an unmoderated list that forbids political discourse? Who cares if > people sometimes get upset, or if the tone changes? Any list will > inevitably have qualities that will cause some people to eschew it. > > I would hate to think what Joni's work would be if she censored herself > from expressing any discordant thoughts. This is a forum for engaged > adults, and I believe that its dynamism is one of its strongest assets. > I applaud Les for his decision to keep this list unmoderated and I am > pleased to see that he remains firm in that decision. > > I also realize that Les has opened the floor for people to suggest > possible changes to the way the list operates. Frankly, I don't think > any are necessary. > > Best regards, > > David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:39:11 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC political posts Vince you are so right...heated exchanges have occurred over subjects you'd never expect them to... Perhaps we overlook how many political posts were handled well...it is my opinion that it has nothing to do with the subject, but everything to do with the delivery, that makes a subject go off kilter... Like vince, I would rather slog through some heated posts if it means I get to read some of the gems... David >>This is a forum for engaged adults, and I believe that its dynamism is one of its strongest assets. < Beautifully expressed david... & jimmy LOL! >Bring back IVPAUL???? :~) Jimmy, who misses the Smurph humour< I miss smurph humour too but yours is smurph worthy! OH AND LES I !!!! I love the new chatty you!!!! Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:42:56 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Let the list be the list (NJC) Where does the idea of new filters end? This would assume that everyone is annoyed by political content-clearly not the case. I prefer reading political posts to "happy birthday" or "what's your favorite/least favorite DED song" threads. Can we have happy birthday filters? Special filters for in-crowd communication? Ah, a shining solution; delete. You may wonder why I don't just join a political list? First, because alot of topics interest me, and second, because THESE are the people I want to talk to. RR, who, believe it or not, has only posted political content once in four months, but enjoyed reading it except the very rare times when there were personal swipes. blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > Hi, David! You wrote: > > "There is a Joni-only list for those who choose it. What is the sense of > an unmoderated list that forbids political discourse? Who cares if > people sometimes get upset, or if the tone changes? Any list will > inevitably have qualities that will cause some people to eschew it." > > David, I don't think anyone's suggesting that political discourse be > "forbidden" on the JMDL. The point I was making yesterday--and a good night's > sleep has helped wonderfully in calming me down since--was that perhaps the > point at which any given digest consists MAINLY of political posts written at > an especially high level of vitriol and consisting mostly of ad hominem > attacks between 2 or 3 or 4 people could be avoided in the future, as it is > alienating to many. I'm just not sure how to do this. > > Calls for self-restraint do not appear to have worked, and besides, > everybody's got a different idea about what "restraint" consists of, not to > mention about what level of discussion is appropriate. A separate list for > political content does not appear to have worked, probably for several good > reasons: it's hard to know when to move a thread; those participating most > enthusiastically may resent the idea of moving their thread, etc., etc., etc. > Since, as Lori pointed out, many of us--most of the list, in fact--are on > digest, the exhortation to "just delete" doesn't work, and my own reaction to > having to scroll through 20-some political posts to get to 5 or so other posts > that interest me, JC or not, is too often simply not to read the entire > digest. Joni-Only doesn't cut it for many of us: we like the NJC that helps > knit our community together, but not the scathing personal attacks on > political topics between people whose minds are extremely unlikely ever to be > changed, or (at times) the large volumes of material posted to the list on > topics in which we may have zero interest. And, despite my positive comments > yesterday about another group I belong to which features a bulletin-board > set-up, I very much like the JMDL's existence as an e-mail list, as I think > others do, too. So what to do? > > I still think the best option would be another filter, so that those of us who > would prefer that our JMDL experience be unaccompanied by this type of > heated--overheated?--political discourse could have that option, at least at > times. I think the concerns about other potential areas of concern are red > herrings: THIS is the topic that has surfaced as a serious problem, to the > point of people unsubscribing in significant numbers, again and again. And of > course, if such a filter were implemented, those who *want* such exchanges > with their morning coffee get the option of having them. > > So everybody's happy: at least, until the next time the White Sox don't win > the World Series. ;-) > > However, another, simpler option might be for everyone to go back to the > introduction page and carefully read, once again, some of the guidelines for > participation here that most of us saw when we first subscribed. As I > mentioned above, the problem with this is that there are probably some > 800-plus definitions on the list about what "appropriate" discourse consists > of. But may I suggest that some additional questions to ask before hitting > that "send" button might be: Is sending this helpful to me? Is it helpful to > the person to whom I am directing it? Do 800 people world-wide, some of whom > have absolutely no interest in American politics (or fill in the blank) REALLY > want to read this? Am I trying to change Person X's mind? Is that likely to > happen? Would a personal exchange with X be more appropriate (if X is open to > that)? Is my tone here likely to make the JMDL a better place? Why *am* I > sending this? > > And your (everyone's) questions may vary. The point is, with a quick, > "count-to-ten" pre-send routine, many of these recent difficulties could be > eliminated with no change to the list at all. > > To sum up, I'm a long-time list member. In seven years and three months, I > have been unsubbed only once, for five minutes, while changing over to > "digest" format. I don't want to leave. In the past, I myself have > participated in political discussions! I appreciate Les's decision not to > moderate, and I, too, shudder at the thought of a "censored" list. However, I > think, and hope, that the suggestions I have made point to civility, not > censorship. And, with the state of the world as it is, for whatever reasons > it may have reached that point, we need all the civility and friendship that > we can get. May we all continue to get both here. > > Take good care, > > Mary. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #25 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)