From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #23 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 14 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 023 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC ["Lori Fy] RE: honesty - njc ["Lori Fye" ] all them funny chards ["ron" ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC ["Sherell] Re: oh god njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Songs I would like Britney to cover and Laura NJC ["amelio747" ] a propos of nothing - actor's studio (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Oh Boy -- Please Spank Me Hard (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] Re: On Inventing chords ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: oh god njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: oh god njc ["Sherelle Smith" ] RE: oh God (njc) [] Re: oh god njc [Randy Remote ] RE: On Inventing chords ["Les Irvin" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 [Kardinel@aol.com] RE: oh god (njc) [] Re: On Inventing chords [Randy Remote ] oh God -- now with Joni content! ["Lori Fye" ] RE: On Inventing chords [Jenny Goodspeed ] Joni's guitar playing through the years! ["amelio747" ] Political posts (was) oh god (njc) ["Les Irvin" ] (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea ["Lori Fye" ] RE: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: oh god njc ["Norman Pennington" ] RE: On Inventing chords ["Les Irvin" ] Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea [] Re: Joni's guitar playing through the years! [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: oh god njc [Chris Marshall ] RE: all them funny chards njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: On Inventing chords [Chris Marshall ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:50:57 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC > Buck, missing SFO just a LITTLE bit this morning... Oh, it's just those liberals you're missing. ; ) Lori P.S. - Got www.KFOG.com on? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:57:29 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: honesty - njc > my mother would load a gun with her pearls and shoot me. the verdict > would be death by chic. Oh Wally, LOL! For a bear, you can be SUCH a queen! : D Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:58 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: all them funny chards hi first off - thanks to everyone for all the info on the tunings. personally i would have to say that i think that her tunings are part of what draws me to her music. the sound she gets just takes her out of the realm of ordinary sound, and into the creative realm that sets her apart. the alternative tunings bring a whole new dimension to guitar. not just her - but other artists who use them as well - such as rory block and sonny landreth. and if she did it without the theoretical background, well, to me that says something incredible about her er and her instincts - that she ould rely on them to come up with sosmething so complex, that fits together so well. unless shes maybe just the monkey among the infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of guitars for an infinite number of years who just came up with the goods :-) ron np - stanley clark - stories to tell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:15:18 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC Ha! Ha! There is NEVER a good enough reason to hold up traffic on 7th street! You take your life into your hands impeding any traffic in DC! I have to confess that I usually run for train in the evening when it's arriving because I just want to get home!!! The Metro is something I don't think I will ever get used to! Sherelle >From: "Lori Fye" >To: "Sherelle Smith" , joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:55:43 -0800 > >Sherelle wrote, of Lyndon LaRouche's apparent politicking: > > > A "Cheney is the devil" poster was plastered on the back of the truck > > and it must have been traveling at a mind-boggling three miles an > > hour on 7th Street during lunch hour! In this city, that is enough to > > make someone jump out of their car and do bodily harm to the driver! > > Everyone is in a hurry here! (Lori knows!) > >Well, Cheney IS the devil, but that's still not a reason to hold up >traffic on 7th Street during lunch hour in DC. ; ) > >Lori, >who every morning shakes her head in amusement at the goofballs RUNNING >to catch the metro train -- the trains arrive like every 3 minutes _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:28:33 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: oh god njc Hey paul, I've had some nice emails from you & am sorry to hear you are upset with this list...if you stay around long enough you will see that it changes like the seasons...as far as there being an in crowd, that is probably a perception due to the fact that some of the people have actually met in person...the cool thing is that this kind of meeting is open to all who want to do it...whether it is at the big northeast fest, or small gatherings in other places such as the one in england this christmas, or the one upcoming in new orleans for lori's run or other places wherever 2 or more jmdr's gather :~}... Still, I call it a perception because you are only outside if you choose to be...everyone is encouraged to be inside... Hope you'll stay & contribute... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:29:59 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Songs I would like Britney to cover and Laura NJC Oh I didn't realise Britney could sing anything!!!;0 LOL Did you know that Laura actually sang "Wedding Bell Blues" at her own wedding reception? It must have been tongue in cheek but real cute too :) Laura Nyro sounds like she was one of the most kindest people ever! You should read "Soul Picnic" by Michelle Kort if you want to know more - I was all teary towards the end. * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jamie Zubairi" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Songs I would like Britney to cover NJC > After her little Las Vegas fiasco, she's more likely to do > Laura's "Wedding Bell Blues". :~) > > Bob > > NP: Steve Earle, "Amerika V6.0 (The Best We Can Do) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:35:06 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian, it is always such a pleasure to hear from you & to read what you have to say about joni's music... I can't think of anyone who has earned the right to comment knowledgeably on this subject more than you...i can't imagine where we'd be without all you have contributed (so brilliantly & generously) to the guitar archives...i'd still be pathetically trying to fake joni songs with regular chords that never quite cut it... >It scares me to participate in this discussion. I had three years of music theory, but that was more than 20 years ago and there's a lot I don't remember.< Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:38:00 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: a propos of nothing - actor's studio (njc) I agree that joni would be an excellent guest on this show! I would think she'd enjoy it as its classy enough for her...& she has acted I've heard (sort of)... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:54:26 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: oh god njc > or the one upcoming in new orleans for lori's run Hey, yeah!! Who's going to be there?? I know Paz and Donna and I will be partying on Friday night (to give me time to recover before I run on Sunday) -- who else? C'mon!! February 27-29, be there or ... you're so square! ; ) Lori ~ http://www.aidsmarathon.com/participant.asp?runner=DCNO-3152&year=2003 http://lrfye.lunarpages.com/donorform.pdf ~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:58:05 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Oh Boy -- Please Spank Me Hard (NJC) Randy wrote: > You need therapy. Oh hell, don't we ALL?? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:58:45 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Oh Boy Huh, did I miss something? I vaguely remember a post about guitar playing but don't recall any nasty replies about it... It seems to me people go out of their way to be helpful especially concerning joni's tunings... So I have to apologize for being clueless about what you are referring to bill...I think if you stick around you'll see what a friendly & helpful bunch of people are here for the most part... >It appears I ruffled someone's feathers on the list by asking a simple question from a truly novice guitar picker like myself, something that had to do with where I could get information about Joni's tunings.< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:01:50 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian>I just think the guitar playing on the early albums is more to be admired.< Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from acoustic to electric guitar? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:23:48 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: oh god njc >intolerance for viewpoints other than their own, and their habit of viewing "us" as fundamentally bad, or somehow flawed, baffles ME.< Gotta agree with buck on this one...music is the universal language...it magically draws people together from all backgrounds & belief systems...that is miraculous to me & what makes this list such an interesting place to hang out... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:28:44 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: oh god njc Hi Chris, Thank you so much for your defense of those of us on the list who some have never even met. I'm going to throw in here and then back out again because I've realized that even though I may hold an opinion but to be quite honest with you, I'm not comfortable debating. I applaud and respect anyone who is can though. Paul and anyone else perplexed by this list, I'm going to be very honest with you from my own experience. I've been on this list almost since its inception. I've seen people leave this list for a while and come back, I've seen people leave this list and never come back, I've seen people leave this list because they've been asked to and I've seen people leave this list because they've left this earth. The bottom line is (and we've all had to find out the hard way) one has to have a sense of their own self and their own needs in this life before anything else. Yes there are a lot of deep and lasting friendships here but I promise you from the bottom of my heart, everyone here gets the same request: "Come on in, the water's fine". Everyone here is invited to love and be loved. It's not something that everyone can or wants to do and that's fine. Because this is the Internet and not face to face relationships for the most part, it's sometimes difficult to interpret what people are trying to say and what you actually read. I don't think this dilemma will ever be solved so it is something that must be considered in an Internet relationship. The bottom line is that you have to make this list fit what you are going through in your life at any given time. Sometimes there are other things going on or you are on a journey of the soul to find yourself. Sometimes you are vulnerable and need a little protection. Whatever it is, I've learned you should never put yourself in (emotional) harm's way because of it. What I say is not something everyone would want to subscribe to, but as I said, this is from my own perspective and experience and I think it has some merit. I always advise a person to step back and cool off and think about what is really upsetting you about the encounter. It rarely is what it appears to be. My opinion is that it is something that has struck at the "core" a basic belief or one's personal integrity or reputation. In my opinon, we must always strive to be careful with those two areas. Paul, in the end, you must do what is right for you. Chris, thanks again for your kind words towards the JMDL. We love all things Joni and anyone who loves Joni is a friend of ours. Sherelle On 14 Jan 2004, at 12:49, Paul Mepschen wrote: >The going gets tough. my no holds barred approach yesterday doesn't help, I >do >regret it. But I pushed the send button myself, so I won't make apologies. >I >do think the list is incrowd -- I don't know if that's nobody's fault. I've already mentioned the reason why I think it's possible to make the "in crowd" assertion. Why do you think there might be some "fault" to allocate there, given the naturally sociable nature of a bunch of people here? _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:31:16 -0600 From: Subject: RE: oh God (njc) Hi, Buck! Mary here: unrepentant liberal, although I've done the very best I could to stay out of recent political discussions on-list, for reasons of my own. But, as more than half my family and my significant other are all card-carrying conservatives , I'll take this one head-on. You wrote: "We laugh, we cry, we celebrate, we grieve. And some of us also love, appreciate, and want more of, Joni Mitchell. In short, aside from our political beliefs, we 're pretty much JUST LIKE YOU. Liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own, and their habit of viewing "us" as fundamentally bad, or somehow flawed, baffles ME." You know, this sounds an awful lot like Shylock's speech in "Merchant of Venice"! And you're right, in pretty much everything you say here (I think you're overgeneralizing a bit with the "liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own," but that's certainly true of some liberals, just as its true of some conservatives). What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? In short, Joni belongs to all. However, I think the above is what the person posting might have meant, not what you took him to mean. Of course, all this is only "guesses at most" on my part. And welcome aboard! Wait. You were in the Air Force, not the Navy. ;-) Take good care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:45:50 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: oh god njc Chris Marshall wrote: > As such, speaking > personally, there are frequent times when I just couldn't give > a flying one about US politics, despite that fact that it affects > the whole world. The figures for 2002 suggest that the UK's crime > rate was the worst in the world (including America) so my > political worries are much closer to home...) Oh really? How many handgun murders did you have? How many billions in corporate crime? I thought so...face it, the US is #1, Jack... RR, feeling protective ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:41:16 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On Inventing chords Marian wrote: > I just think the guitar playing on the > early albums is more to be admired. And Kate responded: > Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from > acoustic to electric guitar? I'm not Marian, but I agree with what she wrote and I'll take a stab at this one. Pre-1972-ish, Joni was a solo artist. If you look at some of the old video and listen to the early albums, you'll hear that Joni wove her 'vision' with just her voice and guitar. Because of that, I think, she paid particular attention to her playing in an attempt to squeeze all of the music out of the guitar that she was technically able to get. When she started recording and performing with a band, her guitar was less of an issue. She could get more of the sound she wanted from the band and chose to do just that. Thus, the guitar became less of a focus as it was no longer the sole musical instrument. So, the less she played the guitar, the less time she took to work things out on the instrument and the less challenging her playing became. Although the term "lazy" might be a bit harsh, I do think her playing is remarkably more challenging and interesting in the early, solo years. Cactus Tree vs Taming the Tiger? No comparison! :-) Les, feeling chatty these days. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:01:58 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 I have been reading the list with some interest lately. About 3 years ago I subscribed to the list and I wrote something about Joni. I can't remember what but was promptly told I was "a starry eyed fan" or something like that. I was very hurt. I don't often write in but wish I could sometimes.I really care about Joni Mitchell and her work. There is an "in crowd" feeling.. I understand how that can come about but maybe the list needs to consider it. Now, about politics. I can't figure people out the older I get. I know a woman in a union and has a gay brother she is very close to but loves Bush. Says Clinton lied to the country but doesn't get Bush's lies. And a question-what is Joni up to these days? Anyone know? Kardinel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:02:21 -0600 From: Subject: RE: oh god (njc) Chris Marshall thoughtfully wrote: ". . . Even with the rampant political discussions of late, there has still been a fair amount of nonpolitical NJC and JC conversation. There *is* something of an issue in that Joni has been mostly idle (from *our* perspective) for some time now, and inevitably that's going to lead to more NJC than JC material. If you are interested only in the Joni stuff, and the annoying and pathetic stuff is in the non-Joni category, join the joni-only list. [. . .] (But I do wonder if it really is time for some rules "governing" political posts. It seems to be the one area that moves people to personal attacks, and having seen it happen in the past, I'd really rather not have seen it this time around, nor in the future. Additionally, while there's a majority of US based people here (I assume) it is an international list. As such, speaking personally, there are frequent times when I just couldn't give a flying one about US politics, despite that fact that it affects the whole world. [. . . ]" My thoughts upon reading this: first, the JMDL certainly *has* been influenced by the fact that Joni last released new music in 1998, and last toured in 2000. But I've been participating quite enthusiastically of late in a bulletin board devoted exclusively to the work of a deceased artist. And, please pardon me in advance, but you can't get much more inactive than that. Somehow, that board manages to remain mainly "on-topic." That may be because of its relative youth, or because of other present circumstances, or because of how that entity is set up: utterly free-form posts are simply more difficult. And it may be that non-political NJC posts will always be a part of this list--and welcomed by many of us--precisely BECAUSE of the real-time friendships that many of us have developed over the years. (I'm assuming that newcomers, too, will develop such friendships: nobody needs to be left out!). Finally, for those who don't want any NJC at all, there IS the option, as Chris pointed out, of subscribing as Joni-only, in two different forms. That said, I'm back to Thought #2, echoing Chris's. Rules governing political posts? These posts, and the "vibe" on the list when they predominate, do seem to alienate many. Maybe Chris's is an idea whose time has finally come. Best regards, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian Russell wrote: > I don't think Joni's guitar chord progressions themselves are so strange. The tuning provides the basic harmonic framework. If we think of any particular tuning as the tonic, or I, of the key, then the barre on fret 5 is IV, and the barre on fret 7 is V. Many of her chord changes are done using barre chords and the only guitar song I can think of that actually modulates to another key is Harry's House/Centerpiece, If you are talking about a song that modulates into a different key for the rest of the song (a common composer 'trick') that may be true. (Actually "Fiddle and the Drum" does this too) But I would say off the top of my head that a majority of her songs modulate out of the parent key at some point, and that is one of the things that makes them interesting. Even her earliest songs like "Urge For Going" did this. Hopefully I'm using the term 'modulate' properly. One more completely unrelated observation concerning Joni's tunings: they inspire/require improvisation. Imagine how you would approach piano if the notes were in different places each time you sat down. New tuning, new world, new song... Thanks for the great insights, Marian RR > but I don't think she did this modulation on her guitar. All of her guitar songs are in one basic key and the chord changes (between I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii and their variations) could be worked out. Of course, what makes her chords sound more beautiful is that most of them *are* variations of I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii - which is made possible by the various tunings. > > I think her piano music chord progressions are, harmonically speaking, much stranger (more unusual) than the guitar stuff. I think Paprika Plains, Judgement Of The Moon And Stars, and Impossible Dreamer are particularly interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:12:40 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: oh God -- now with Joni content! Mary Mary, quite contrary! I'm gonna take the liberty of reposting this one from you, minus the N*JC tag, as it does indeed contain some Joni content and I think it's worth discussing. - Lori Date: 1/14/2004 15:31:16 -0600 From: To: , Subject: RE: oh God (njc) Hi, Buck! Mary here: unrepentant liberal, although I've done the very best I could to stay out of recent political discussions on-list, for reasons of my own. But, as more than half my family and my significant other are all card-carrying conservatives , I'll take this one head-on. You wrote: "We laugh, we cry, we celebrate, we grieve. And some of us also love, appreciate, and want more of, Joni Mitchell. In short, aside from our political beliefs, we 're pretty much JUST LIKE YOU. Liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own, and their habit of viewing "us" as fundamentally bad, or somehow flawed, baffles ME." You know, this sounds an awful lot like Shylock's speech in "Merchant of Venice"! And you're right, in pretty much everything you say here (I think you're overgeneralizing a bit with the "liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own," but that's certainly true of some liberals, just as its true of some conservatives). What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? In short, Joni belongs to all. However, I think the above is what the person posting might have meant, not what you took him to mean. Of course, all this is only "guesses at most" on my part. And welcome aboard! Wait. You were in the Air Force, not the Navy. ;-) Take good care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:21:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: On Inventing chords i am liking the chatty les! ; ) I totally agree with you that her playing changed when she started playing with a band. And I think her earlier playing is more interesting too, but I don't think it's more challenging. To take your example: though musically more interesting than Taming the Tiger, Cactus Tree is much easier to play in my opinion - put your guitar in open G and travis pick using some pretty basic chord shapes (this is my impression listening to it - i haven't checked the tab, sorry if i haven't got it quite right). Her later strumming "technique" escapes me really. I can't duplicate it. The rhythm shifts so much. Now I'm not saying I *like* it more. I don't. I just find her earlier songs much easier to play. Jenny Les Irvin wrote: Marian wrote: > I just think the guitar playing on the > early albums is more to be admired. And Kate responded: > Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from > acoustic to electric guitar? I'm not Marian, but I agree with what she wrote and I'll take a stab at this one. Pre-1972-ish, Joni was a solo artist. If you look at some of the old video and listen to the early albums, you'll hear that Joni wove her 'vision' with just her voice and guitar. Because of that, I think, she paid particular attention to her playing in an attempt to squeeze all of the music out of the guitar that she was technically able to get. When she started recording and performing with a band, her guitar was less of an issue. She could get more of the sound she wanted from the band and chose to do just that. Thus, the guitar became less of a focus as it was no longer the sole musical instrument. So, the less she played the guitar, the less time she took to work things out on the instrument and the less challenging her playing became. Although the term "lazy" might be a bit harsh, I do think her playing is remarkably more challenging and interesting in the early, solo years. Cactus Tree vs Taming the Tiger? No comparison! :-) Les, feeling chatty these days. Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:20:25 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! Ok I can NOT call myself a musician at all but I gotta' say for me Jenny hit the nail on the head when she said that Joni plays the guitar like a piano. I've always thought that! More so with all the stuff up to C&S. I think FTR has some of her finest guitar playing ever. Don't get me wrong I love a lot of the stuff after, especially C&S up to Hejira (in fact THOSL is my favourite album!) I think the late 70's stuff is equally progressive (more so in fact) but she didn't have to do so much herself with the guitar coz of the bands she played with. So in a way she did kind of get lazy and I think her later guitar playing was less intricate. However her rhythm was amazing (now thinking of DJRD and Mingus). In the 80's she hardly seemed to touch the guitar (btw I love DED!) but I still think her 90's style is interesting. It's kind of like a compromise joining everything together but of course with less surprises! I think a few folks have said a lot of this stuff but this is what I think anyways! :) * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:24:02 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Unbelievable Pooka moment njc Just got home and flicked through the channels, and found a documentary about bisexual women - no really, it's a documentary! Anyway, obviously I'm not interested in that kind of thing, but just before I switched over, I had a snippet of a song from Pooka's album Spinning, one of my favourites. I thought wow, somebody else has heard it - or maybe the song, Lubrication [ahem] was chosen for its title. Then a few minutes later, there was another song from the same album, She Is A Rainbow. And then a third, Mean Girl. I hope they get some royalties for it, although sadly they've split up now. Anyway, that's all I have to say at this time... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:25:49 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: oh god njc On 14 Jan 2004, at 21:45, Randy Remote wrote: > Oh really? How many handgun murders did you have? How > many billions in corporate crime? I thought so...face it, the US > is #1, Jack... K, these are old figures and I'm sure open to interpretation, but here ya go. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ ncrime01.xml And please remember, I said "crime rate" i.e. criminal acts per head of population, or something like that. I have carried out no further research into the validity of these figures, and merely threw it into the ring as one reason why I didn't have the spare cycles to get overly excited about things in the USA when the UK's busy going to the dogs all by itself. - --Chris Marshall chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:26:31 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: Political posts (was) oh god (njc) blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > That said, I'm back to Thought #2, echoing Chris's. Rules > governing political posts? These posts, and the "vibe" on > the list when they predominate, do seem to alienate many. > Maybe Chris's is an idea whose time has finally come. I'm open for suggestions. A long time ago, in response to another heated political debate, I formed a 'political content list' (JMDLPC) over at yahoogroups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JMDLPC/) for the purpose of moving those discussions there. Despite gentle suggestions during most political debates here (thanks Lori!), the PC has seen only 21 posts in its almost two year existence. I'm wondering (publicly) why people don't choose to use that forum? I've been firmly against moderation and/or dictating the content of this list since day one and still am, but I must agree that the tone changes during these discourses and takes some time to recover. Thoughts? Suggestions? Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:33:44 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea Mary wrote, in "Re: oh god (njc): > That said, I'm back to Thought #2, echoing Chris's. Rules governing > political posts? These posts, and the "vibe" on the list when they > predominate, do seem to alienate many. > > Maybe Chris's is an idea whose time has finally come. Geez, we've gone 'round and 'round (and 'round) with this, haven't we? Short of kicking people off the JMDL for posting political content, there really isn't much to be done other that what's already been offered: 1) Personal responsibility for limiting the amount of political content (aka PC) posted* 2) Subscribing to only-Joni in one (or both, if you wish) of the two available formats (individual posts, or digest) 3) Joining http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JMDLPC/, which no one seems very interested in doing -- and I suspect this is because part of the attraction of discussing PC issues on the JMDL is the possibility that 800 people might read what you have to say (versus 15 people on JMDLPC, where there have been a total of 21 posts since October 8, 2002) It's upsetting to me when people leave the JMDL because they've just had enough of the PC, but I'm sure there are people who get annoyed when there's hardly anything to read on the list but 100 "happy birthday!" posts. I remember a guy who left because people dissed Jackson Browne. He was really pissed off, and I don't think he ever resubbed. Anyway, the only other suggestion I have is this and it's been suggested before, and it's really a question for Les Irvin: Les -- would it be possible and feasible to create a message board for political posts? (And perhaps another for birthday posts?) Personally, I've always liked the dynamic "flow" of the email format because I can read or browse through (or skip) everything as it comes along. But since this PC issue is so divisive, perhaps a message board would be a solution? Thoughts (anyone)? Lori *who admits she promised to stop posting PC but has allowed herself to fall back into it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:35:48 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Political posts (was) oh god (njc) Oh how bizarre (or not -- synchronicity is the rule here, afterall): > Despite gentle suggestions during most political debates here (thanks > Lori!), the PC has seen only 21 posts in its almost two year > existence. I'm wondering (publicly) why people don't choose to use > that forum? > Thoughts? Suggestions? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:40:24 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Political posts (was) oh god (njc) Some of these exchanges have been painful, even to a non-combatant like myself. Still, as occasions where people need to/can dig deeply into their own beliefs, they aren't all completely deplorable. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:42:05 -0600 From: Subject: Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea Lori wrote: "> Geez, we've gone 'round and 'round (and 'round) with this, haven't we? > Short of kicking people off the JMDL for posting political content, > there really isn't much to be done other that what's already been > offered: > > 1) Personal responsibility for limiting the amount of political content > (aka PC) posted* > > 2) Subscribing to only-Joni in one (or both, if you wish) of the two > available formats (individual posts, or digest) > > 3) Joining http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JMDLPC/, which no one seems > very interested in doing -- and I suspect this is because part of the > attraction of discussing PC issues on the JMDL is the possibility that > 800 people might read what you have to say (versus 15 people on JMDLPC, > where there have been a total of 21 posts since October 8, 2002) Actually, there is. Maybe it's time we think about coming up with a mechanism by which, at a certain point, participants MUST continue the discussion on the PC list, or not continue it at all. I'm not sure what the mechanism would look like: a vote, for example, probably isn't feasible. But self-regulation or voluntarily taking it to the PC list don't seem to be working. Les: your thoughts? Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:42:51 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! OK, so it's the 14th. Claudia is off celebrating her special birthday with her special partner...and we all get to put on some kind of harmony in wishing Claudia happy belated birthday and many, many more. I raise my voice to join all the others in remembering times when we had the gift of her song. Thank you, Claudia. I look forward to many more songs down the road. love and hugs, Maggie and Alex -----Original Message----- From: magsnbrei [mailto:magsnbrei@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:31 PM To: Scott and Jody; Claudia SanSoucie; joni@smoe.org; NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! joining this sweet harmonic chorus .. happy birthday to our most beloved songbird, Claudy ;-) hugsnlove,magsnbrei xoxoxoxooxoxxo Scott and Jody wrote: I sent the International *NO sign* for Mercury in Retrograde to BF. He must not have received it yet, hence the communication breakdown on this day! If I may, I would be honored to wish a very gifted and wonderful woman A Very Happy Birthday lovely, sweetbird Claudia SanSouice!!!!!! You are in our thoughts today and everyday, much love, jody and scott NP-Claud and John-"If My Eyes Were Blind" ***** your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle everything i do is stitched with its colour. w.s.merwin Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:46:14 -0600 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: who'da thunk it? NJC <> if you'd made a wager with me this time last year regarding the fact that we've had more posts this week from LES IRVIN, LES ROSS and WILLY THE SHAKE than from the 2 evil BOB M twins, i'd be eating my hat about now. wow. willy les and les - i love seeing you guys in my in-box! bob and bob - you're greatly missed around here. c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:44:25 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: oh god njc Hey Colin, If you want to debate the semantics of Paul's original post and your nod-of-agreement reply from a strict constructionist POV, you win the point. There was no direct reference to Bush, those that support him and his administration, or conservatives in general, in Paul's post. That said, you can see from the tone of other posts in this thread I'm not alone in interpreting 'homophobic, fundamentalist, pro life fantatics' as a reference to politics in general and, more specifically, to those of us who support Bush...by extension, conservatives. I believe you really DO understand why I thought you were referring to me. I find your reply just a bit facile and self-serving, and your suggestion that I wear the shoe if it fits to be... well, I don't have to be TOO literal now, do I? Best Regards, bp Colin wrote: My bafflement is in reference to 'homophobic, fundamentalist, pro life fantatics' not to conservatives. Some of my best friends are conservatives! And so am I in some of my ideas and liberal in others. I don't belong to a set ideology. So quite why you chose to think I was referring to you I don't know, unless you are a homophobic, fundamentalist pro life fanatic, in which case I firmly believe you would not be a nice or honest or trustworthy or decent person. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:50:41 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On Inventing chords From: Jenny Goodspeed > Her later strumming "technique" escapes me really. I can't > duplicate it. The rhythm shifts so much. Now I'm not saying > I *like* it more. I don't. I just find her earlier songs > much easier to play. I think that post-1972 Joni evolved into another style of playing where she used a percussive tapping of the strings (ala John Martyn) that was not present in the early years (Martin Giles and Les Ross are both good at this). I agree that it's a challenge. But if you watch her play, she holds her right hand nearly straight up and down vertically as opposed to many fingerpickers who hold the right hand nearly horizontally. Seeing this for the first time really helped me "get" what she was doing. Still, I challenge you to have a go at Cactus Tree. She is doing some amazing syncopated stuff that sounds deceptively simple but is quite challenging. I tabbed that piece a while back, thinking it would be a breeze. I was mistaken. Give it a shot, guitarists! http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/cactustree-li-t.cfm Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:53:26 -0600 From: Subject: Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea P.S. Another possibility, which I think has been discussed before, is implementating another set of filters: one that would filter out anything marked "PC", just as "NJC" is currently filtered out. That way, nobody would have to go anywhere. Les: doable? Mary, thinking this is probably my last on this subject for a while. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing through the years! You may not call yourself a musician Stephen, but you described Joni's guitar career very aptly in a very short amount of place. Of course I think that because I happen to agree with your take on it - well except for that loving DED thing - still working on that. ; ) Jenny amelio747 wrote: Ok I can NOT call myself a musician at all but I gotta' say for me Jenny hit the nail on the head when she said that Joni plays the guitar like a piano. I've always thought that! More so with all the stuff up to C&S. I think FTR has some of her finest guitar playing ever. Don't get me wrong I love a lot of the stuff after, especially C&S up to Hejira (in fact THOSL is my favourite album!) I think the late 70's stuff is equally progressive (more so in fact) but she didn't have to do so much herself with the guitar coz of the bands she played with. So in a way she did kind of get lazy and I think her later guitar playing was less intricate. However her rhythm was amazing (now thinking of DJRD and Mingus). In the 80's she hardly seemed to touch the guitar (btw I love DED!) but I still think her 90's style is interesting. It's kind of like a compromise joining everything together but of course with less surprises! I think a few folks have said a lot of this stuff but this is what I think anyways! :) * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:58:50 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Was: oh God, now with Joni Content! Thank you, Lori! Mary well-said: > What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? > > In short, Joni belongs to all. However, I think the above is what the person posting might have meant, not what you took him to mean. Of course, all this is only "guesses at most" on my part. > Agree whole-heartedly with your comments about Joni's worldview being more liberal than conservative and the support that POV has, world-wide. I and the type of folks I hung out with when I first heard Joni all had that "liberal" worldview. I really wonder if I would have listened to her had I not associated with the folks I did at that point in time. Looking back, I think I can safely state that the US was a VERY polarized society during the late '60s and early '70s. People like Joni, Neil Young, and Bob Dylan spoke to "us," not to "them." It's ironic that I'm now one of "them," but my love for Joni's art hasn't diminished a whit. Best regards and thanks for your thoughtful post, Buck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:01:14 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: (NJC) Political Content on the JMDL - an idea Mary offered: > Maybe it's time we think about coming up with a mechanism by which, > at a certain point, participants MUST continue the discussion on the > PC list, or not continue it at all. I'm not sure what the mechanism > would look like: a vote, for example, probably isn't feasible. But > self-regulation or voluntarily taking it to the PC list don't seem to > be working. "Back in the day," as the younger folks say (and why do they say that? which "day"?), we asked people to voluntarily use the NJC tag, and lo and behold, that actually worked! Les set up a filter so the NJC posts would go to the "everything" versions of the list but would not go to the "only-Joni" versions. It's been suggested that we do the same with a "PC" tag, and for awhile people were adding that to political threads. It didn't have a filter, though, and I think that perhaps Les was reluctant to add such a thing. (Afterall, where does that end?) But maybe it could be done? The resulting choices for subscription would be something like this (I think): joni or joni-digest = everything nopcjoni or nopcjoni-digest = everything minus posts tagged with "NJCPC" onlyjoni or onlyjoni-digest = everything minus posts tagged with "NJC" or "NJCPC" Would that work? Or will people request filters for SJC (some Joni content), VLJC (very little Joni content), et cetera? Lori NPIMH: "Nothing Can Be Done" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:04:43 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: honesty - njc that's the advantage of all the duality stuff one has learned from joni. wally, dual dual dual! > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Lori > Fye > Enviado el: Miircoles, 14 de Enero de 2004 04:57 p.m. > Para: Wally Kairuz; joni > Asunto: RE: honesty - njc > > > > my mother would load a gun with her pearls and shoot me. the verdict > > would be death by chic. > > Oh Wally, LOL! For a bear, you can be SUCH a queen! : D > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:01:17 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: oh god njc On 14 Jan 2004, at 22:44, Norman Pennington wrote: > Hey Colin, > If you want to debate the semantics of Paul's original post and your > nod-of-agreement reply from a strict constructionist POV, you win the > point. > There was no direct reference to Bush, those that support him and his > administration, or conservatives in general, in Paul's post. That > said, you > can see from the tone of other posts in this thread I'm not alone in > interpreting 'homophobic, fundamentalist, pro life fantatics' as a > reference > to politics in general and, more specifically, to those of us who > support > Bush...by extension, conservatives. Actually, that's not what Paul's post said, and I'm sure Colin wasn't implying that. Paul referred to people who support and voted for a "homophobic, fundie, pro life fanatic" (singular). I don't think anyone in their right mind would accuse those supporters/voters of *being* the same thing. Not even Colin :-) - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:07:04 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: all them funny chards njc personally, i find chards delicious, especially swiss chards. wally, who makes a mean swiss chard omelet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:03:20 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: On Inventing chords On 14 Jan 2004, at 22:50, Les Irvin wrote: > Still, I challenge you to have a go at Cactus Tree. She is doing some > amazing syncopated stuff that sounds deceptively simple but is quite > challenging. I tabbed that piece a while back, thinking it would be a > breeze. I was mistaken. > > Give it a shot, guitarists! > http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/cactustree-li-t.cfm Geee, look at all the little numbers! Translation: not a chance in hell. Kudos for tabbing that little lot out though :) - --Chris Marshall (fingers too big, ergo bass guitar for me :) chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #23 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)