From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #20 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 14 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 020 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- honesty - njc ["Kate Bennett" ] re: PNAC NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: PNAC NJC ["kakki" ] re: guitar tunings [Catherine McKay ] njc [tantra-apso ] Fw: joni and guerin at home (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: honesty - njc [tantra-apso ] Re: honesty - njc ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup ["Lori Fye" ] Re: now an infomercial for gisele NJC ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC ["Sherell] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup ["Sherelle Smith"] Amateur art [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: On Inventing chords [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Amateur art [Catherine McKay ] a propos of nothing (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Joni's Voice ["William Waddell" ] Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 [Musicloverrick@aol.com] oh god njc ["Paul Mepschen" ] January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! ["Scott and Jody" ] Re: On Inventing chords [Michael Paz ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup [Michael Paz ] Re: PNAC NJC ["kakki" ] Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: On Inventing chords [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] 60 Minutes njc [] Re: On Inventing chords [Dflahm@aol.com] John Guerin, 100% JC [] RE: oh god njc ["Victor Johnson" ] RE January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] RE: On inventing chords ["Les Irvin" ] Re: honesty - njc ["mackoliver" ] Re: On inventing chords [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: honesty - njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: On inventing chords ["Les Irvin" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:04:16 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: honesty - njc Patrick , I think it is obvious that kakki & I are pretty far apart on the political spectrum...but I don't think she lies...she may state things she believes to be true that are not...it is increasingly more difficult to find absolute truth these days with so much spin...anyway, it is a much more powerful argument to state an opinion or facts to the contrary as support for an argument rather than resorting to personal judgements (even if the person is intentionally lying which in this case is not so imo)...however it is fair to say bush lies cuz he isn't here & he does :~} Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:23:18 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: re: PNAC NJC Vince asked >How did these laws prevent the administration from sending out a warning alert in August 2001?< kakki answered >>What kind of warning alert? A general warning that "be on the lookout for suspicious people who may hijack a plane?" People could have then been generally on the lookout but boxcutters and trained suicide pilots could still have gotten through fairly easily.<< mike, quoting The Guardian, September 6, 2003, in an article written by Michael Meacher, ex Labour Party minister, says the following, and please pay particular attention to the last two sentences, please. >>First, it is clear the US authorities did little or nothing to pre-empt the events of 9/11. It is known that at least 11 countries provided advance warning to the US of the 9/11 attacks. Two senior Mossad experts were sent to Washington in August 2001 to alert the CIA and FBI to a cell of 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation (Daily Telegraph, September 16 2001). The list they provided included the names of four of the 9/11 hijackers, none of whom was arrested.<< It is difficult to see how trained suicide pilots with or without boxcutters could have gotten through if they had been followed or arrested. A 'warning alert' stating, for example, 'do not let any of these people get on a plane without special checks' might have been possible. mike in barcelona NP Tortoise - Thrill Jockey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:06:13 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC Mike, In response, please read my last post to Patrick providing several news reports regarding extensive Congressional and other governmental investigations and inquiries after 9/11. All the pertinent information never was provided to Bush, or in some cases, apparently even to some of the higher-ups in the intelligence and security operations. It started being unearthed after the Justice Dept. started an investigation right after 9/11, followed by Congressional investigation. If you say, well I am naive and Bush is lying about that, read the articles again. We probably would have never known any of the information had 9/11 never happened and if the Justice Dept. hadn't probably seized a few computer hard drives and some whistleblowers felt safer to come forward.. If I wanted to be really paranoid, I could come up with some scary scenarios why information was withheld both before and after Bush became president. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:02:37 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: guitar tunings --- Bill Bubb wrote: > Goodness gracious, Joni has a good amount of guitar > tunings and > as a newbie on the acoustic guitar, it's taking a > little while > for my "ear" to figure them all out. > > Is there a article somewhere about tunings that > would be helpful > so I could tune a little quicker in between songs > with the > greatest of ease. > If you haven't already checked out the guitar tabs section at www.jmdl.com, do so now. There are a number of articles, along with tabs to just about every Joni song. As far as "figuring them out" goes, mercifully a number of other people have already done that! Tuning in between songs is the hard part, unless you have a VG8. For those of us who do not, I suppose the trick is to pick a number of songs that are either all in the same family of tunings, or where you may only have to re-tune one or two strings once you've already retuned. (You can do a search for songs by family of tunings too, so you don't have to work that part out on your own either.) While getting from one tuning to another when you're performing for anyone, you could try developing some stage patter. I find it difficult to talk while listening to the sound of the strings but some people, Joni being one, do not. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:19:38 +0000 From: tantra-apso Subject: njc There are only ten times in history where the "F" word has been considered acceptable for use. They are as follows: 1. "What the @#$% do you mean we are sinking?" -- Capt. E.J. Smith of RMS Titanic, 1912 2. "What the @#$% was that?" -- Mayor Of Hiroshima, 1945 3. "Where did all those @#$%ing Indians come from?" -- Custer, 1877 4. "Any @#$%ing idiot could understand that." -- Einstein, 1938 5. "It does so @#$%ing look like her!" -- Picasso, 1926 6. "How the @#$% did you work that out?" - -- Pythagoras, 126 BC 7. "You want WHAT on the @#$%ing ceiling?" -- Michelangelo, 1566 8. "Where the @#$% am I?" -- Amelia Earhart, 1937 9. "Scattered @#$%ing showers....My ass!" -- Noah, 4314 BC 10. "Aw c'mon. Who the @#$% is going to find out?" -- Bill Clinton, 1999 - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:24:28 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: joni and guerin at home (for AOL users) Wally says: 'Halfway through the tape a phone rings. It is a friend with an invitation to a party. "Yes, we'd love to," says Joni. "But why don't you ask John," she says after a pause. "If I suggest it, he'll think I want to see my old boy friends." ' > when i heard about guerin's death, i immediately thought of this bit from an article i read when i was 13!!!! knowing that guerin was a scorpio like joni, i always tried to imagine how um... *jealous* they must have been of each other. > > well, i've just found the article at jmdl.com. (where else?) > the article has some nice references to guerin and joni's domestic life. > > check it out at > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=6 > > wally (thank you, les!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:33:24 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: honesty - njc Kate sez: > ...however it is fair to say bush lies cuz he isn't here & > he does :~} > Oh, Kate! You were doing SO well, and then this! ;-) (I jest, I jest!!) I've resolved to "agree to disagree." As others have noted, the exchanges are getting too heated and there's too much vitriol being thrown around. It's VERY apparent to me that I won't change your opinions, and neither will you change mine. So, let's just leave it lie (no pun here). Best Regards, Buck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:09:14 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup I was washing out my 2002 Jonifest coffee cup at work this morning and as I looked at it, I had an overwhelming sense of pride about it. I was thrilled it sat in a place where coworkers could walk by and see that I am indeed a Jonilista! All of a sudden, I had to hear all things Joni! I ran back to my desk and immediately pulled up my Real One player where my Joni is stored and immediately clicked on strains of the CD Turbulent Indigo. Now the music has flowed to Court and Spark and has settled on "The Same Situation". Oh the power of that cup!!! the president and vice president of my organization just walked by and was I deterred? No! A thousand times no! The cup makes me shameless!!! Willl the annoying speaker-car of Lyndon LaRoche playing the "Hallelujuah Chorus" passing by our building deter me? No! I will just turn up the volume! "Car On the Hill" will prevail!!! Such is life in downtown DC! Love, Sherelle NP-"Down to You" _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:39:22 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: honesty - njc > however it is fair to say bush lies cuz he isn't here & he does :~} Joni Mitchell never lies. : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:52:41 +0000 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: honesty - njc Lori Fye wrote: >> >> > >Joni Mitchell never lies. > >: ) > Yes she does. Only the other night, she rolled over, lit her fag, and said 'that was crap'. > > >Lori > > > - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:04:43 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: honesty - njc Lori so aptly stated: > > however it is fair to say bush lies cuz he isn't here & he does :~} > > Joni Mitchell never lies. > > : ) > > > Lori Wish _I'd_ have said that! ;-) bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:33:09 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup Sing it Sista!!! The power of the cup, I love it! You go girl, keep having a good day. love db >>> "Sherelle Smith" 1/13/2004 11:09:14 AM >>> I was washing out my 2002 Jonifest coffee cup at work this morning and as I looked at it, I had an overwhelming sense of pride about it. I was thrilled it sat in a place where coworkers could walk by and see that I am indeed a Jonilista! All of a sudden, I had to hear all things Joni! I ran back to my desk and immediately pulled up my Real One player where my Joni is stored and immediately clicked on strains of the CD Turbulent Indigo. Now the music has flowed to Court and Spark and has settled on "The Same Situation". Oh the power of that cup!!! the president and vice president of my organization just walked by and was I deterred? No! A thousand times no! The cup makes me shameless!!! Willl the annoying speaker-car of Lyndon LaRoche playing the "Hallelujuah Chorus" passing by our building deter me? No! I will just turn up the volume! "Car On the Hill" will prevail!!! Such is life in downtown DC! Love, Sherelle NP-"Down to You" _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:49:19 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup For anyone who might not know what the cup looks like, and is wondering, here: http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/pix0209/DSC03742.jpg : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:56:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: honesty - njc Lol buck, high five! >Oh, Kate! You were doing SO well, and then this! ;-) (I jest, I jest!!) I've resolved to "agree to disagree."< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:28:09 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: now an infomercial for gisele NJC Speaking of which, Cindy I sent a check for one of the cds, was it received?? db >>> "Kate Bennett" 1/6/2004 12:38:08 PM >>> May I suggest selling giselle's cd at cdbaby.com? They take some $$ off the top but you set the price you want to receive...it is well worth it to not have to handle the shipping costs & they take credit cards & do international orders...they give you a page with photo, description & sound clips...check it out, its really a fabulous service for indie artists...the set up fee is only $35 if I remember correctly...many here can attest to buying & selling at cdbaby.com...a great business model (founded by a musician)...its likely giselle will even sell cds to folks she doesn't know with a cdbaby.com presence... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide This message has been scanned by the E250. Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:20:49 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: On Inventing chords PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > << From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Subject: In Search Of The Lost Chord > > **Joni Mitchell has guitar chords that she actually INVENTED** > > I have to admit that I didn't know this, Rick...exactly which chords did she > invent? Or did you mean that she devised new tunings for already existing > chords? Not being a musician I don't know if there's a difference. > > Bob >> > > Hummmm... > Being the "new" musician that I am, but being a beginner on piano and not > guitar, and knowing something about chords in general... I would say: no one > can claim that they INVENTED any particular chord True enough >>> > as all chords are just any > number of notes played together and the numerous possibilities would seem > endless, There must be a finite number, mathematically. I guess if you widen the frequency spectrum from 0 hz to the speed of light, the possible configurations would be pretty staggering, though. > > Perhaps Rick means that Joni "invented" numerous guitar TUNINGS, She also invented GUITAR chords, because those tunings allowed notes and combinations of notes to be played that could not have been played previously (on the guitar, that is). Someone else, somewhere, may have invented some of the same tunings/chords independantly, but they were not in the popular lexicon of guitar playing. Particularly, Joni's use of really low notes for the bottom string(s) makes her tunings unique and innovative. The Hawaiian slack key style does this too, but generally tunes to simpler chords, whereas an open Joni tuning is often a more exotic one. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:22:42 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup-now NJC Thanks Donna! I couldn't help it! Even now, my cup is positioned on the warming plate to an exact angle where everyone can see and appreciate it! It is such an insanely ridiculous day here...by the way, Lyndon thought it necessary to talk trash the MCI Center, my place of employ while inching down the street in an open bed truck. All I could make of it was how he would save everyone from those in MCI Center box seats or something like that. A "Cheney is the devil" poster was plastered on the back of the truck and it must have been traveling at a mind-boggling three miles an hour on 7th Street during lunch hour! In this city, that is enough to make someone jump out of their car and do bodily harm to the driver! Everyone is in a hurry here! (Lori knows!) At any rate, Lyndon is done for now and all is quiet on the home front. Joni has prevailed again!!!! Sherelle >From: "Donna Binkley" >To: , >Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:33:09 -0600 > >Sing it Sista!!! The power of the cup, I love it! You go girl, keep >having a good day. > >love db > _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up  fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:23:14 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup Ain't it a beaute!!!!! Sherelle >From: "Lori Fye" >To: , >Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:49:19 -0800 > >For anyone who might not know what the cup looks like, and is >wondering, here: > >http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/pix0209/DSC03742.jpg > > >: ) > >Lori _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:12:46 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Amateur art Hadn't seen this one before & thought it was pretty neat! http://www.kirstio.com/joni_mitchell2.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:47:19 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords What she did indisputably invent are her own chord sequences.They are shockingly new and shockingly logical. They sound so inevitable that I felt almost ashamed that I couldn't have come up with something that good. After all, I'm a jazzer, blah, blah, blah. Others, strictly speaking, invented their own chord sequences too: "You've Got a Friend" is not lifted from any pre-existing song. But it's far less surprising and unconventional than "I Don't Know Where I Stand." A similar contrast obtains, say, between "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" and "Shadow and Light." I would say that regarding chord sequences, before she put her name to a song she subjected herself to the highest possible standards of creativity. I'd also say that after MINGUS, this ceased to be true. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:05:07 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Amateur art --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Hadn't seen this one before & thought it was pretty > neat! > > http://www.kirstio.com/joni_mitchell2.htm Neat, but freaky. Joni looks possessed - however, she probably is! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:24:17 -0500 (EST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: a propos of nothing (njc) OK, I fibbed. My favorite curse word isn't a swear, it's "Idiota!" If you're from the U.S. you may remember the tv commercial where a bartender on a rainy island is watching a game show on tv. The contestant picks the island vacation instead of the car. The bartender mutters "Idiota!" and then turns around to see the contestant, drenched, sitting at his bar. So, I'm gathering that The Actor's Studio is one of the not so guilty pleasures of those of us of a certain age. Gee, I wonder how Joni would answer the questions???? Too bad she doesn't qualify to be on the show. Oh, and I'm seriously bummed about John Guerin. I actually grew up with a whole family of Guerins. And in the photos on MoA, he looks remarkably like my brother in law. So sad... lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:26:51 -0600 From: "William Waddell" Subject: Joni's Voice When Don Juan's first hit my turntable way back in the late 70s I thought - Cheez what's this all about? Joni's voice was changing among other things and I remember thinking to myself - I don't know if I can relate to this. The voice the arrangements the ... the ... Took me a while but I 'got' it in the end. A year ago when Travelogue came out I thought - This ain't doing anything for me - a little bit of history repeating perhaps. Where was the familiar voice? Well, I've been listening to Travelogue for the first time after a whole year and bechaysuz am I not thinking the voice is sounding pretty damned good. "Flat Tires" of all things, ain't sounding so punctured after all. I'm still not won over by the whole production as such; the 'Go West' Village male voice choir??? - mmm, we'll see. Lighten up Vilhelm, where's your sense of humour? There was a programme on TV the other night called 'The Voice' (the female voice) - Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson and Aretha Franklin featured. Of course, one is expecting some sort of Joni mention, if only in passing as we Joniphiles have come to expect most of the time - but Bjork, Beyonce? I digress. Seems that every so often it takes me a wee while to adjust to Joni's voice but I get there in the end. Now enjoying Flat Tires, Love, Be Cool. WtS _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:51:54 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 Very strange that he died from the flu....That is not quite as common as people would think. He must have had a compromised immune system. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:59:25 +0100 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: oh god njc WHen I first joined this list I met two or three kind people, who were welcoming. But I found out this list is as incrowd as incrowd gets Before I leave this annoying and pathetic excuse for a joni mitchell internet list, I want at least to have said that I think the US are in fact the most violent society history has ever created. Whether headed by Clinton or Bush makes no difference for the Palestians that catch American made bullets, or Columbian victims of your war on drugs, or sixteen year old black boys in prison for the mere possession of some marihuana in your own country. On the other hand, I find it UNBELIEVABLE that people who love joni mitchell vote for and defend a blatant homophobic, fundamentalist, pro-life fanatic. What you hear in Joni's sounds is beyond me. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. That one little victory, that's all she needs! Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:55:59 -0500 From: "Scott and Jody" Subject: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! I sent the International *NO sign* for Mercury in Retrograde to BF. He must not have received it yet, hence the communication breakdown on this day! If I may, I would be honored to wish a very gifted and wonderful woman A Very Happy Birthday lovely, sweetbird Claudia SanSouice!!!!!! You are in our thoughts today and everyday, much love, jody and scott NP-Claud and John-"If My Eyes Were Blind" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:07:50 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #6 I think myself that the reason some people may find Rod Stewart's "American Standards" albums to be objectionable is because his singing style on these two albums is so different than usual. He sings very softly and in a completely different manner than he usually does. A friend of mine and I recently made this distinction between Melissa Etheridge's usual work and a remake of Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You" that she did, which was not in her usually quite powerful singing style. It was done rather softly and smoothly. He did not like it because he did not enjoy hearing her sing this way...I, however must admit that I find it quite pleasurable when artists verge in new directions and try something new. Just my opinion though, and my possible explanation why people may not like Joni's Travelogue album as well....Since it is so different from her usual work. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:16:53 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords LOL I see I created a monster with that one....When I said she invented chords I was referring to a line in the "Woman of Heart And Mind" DVD where Joni herself says she was told many times by fellow musicians when she would play songs that, "There goes Joni with her strange chords," etc. She refers to how she was many times experimenting with new ways to play the guitar based on trying to recreate music she heard in her head. Maybe I didn't use the proper terminology, which I think may be the case....I do not have an extensive music education, so that is probably it. What I probably should have said, was that she played the guitar in ways that no one had ever really done before....Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:26:11 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords YAY so techinically I was RIGHT!!!! Now I don't feel so stupid!!!! Thanks! Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:29:21 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Voice yes I must agree that Joni has been so very very overlooked by the music industry as a whole...and that sucks...I mean EXCUSE ME, but there is no way on God's Green Earth that Beyonce will EVER even have the slightest remnant of the talent that Joni has.....NO WAY! Rick P.S. I guess you'd never know how much I love Joni, would you? [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:51:53 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords In a message dated 1/13/04 3:22:57 PM, guitarzan@direcpc.com writes: << > Perhaps Rick means that Joni "invented" numerous guitar TUNINGS, She also invented GUITAR chords, because those tunings allowed notes and combinations of notes to be played that could not have been played previously (on the guitar, that is). Someone else, somewhere, may have invented some of the same tunings/chords independantly, but they were not in the popular lexicon of guitar playing. Particularly, Joni's use of really low notes for the bottom string(s) makes her tunings unique and innovative. The Hawaiian slack key style does this too, but generally tunes to simpler chords, whereas an open Joni tuning is often a more exotic one. RR >> Hummmm... VERRRRRY interesting. Thanks, guitarzan...er, I mean RR. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:57:11 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Rod Stewart, Melissa & Joni In a message dated 1/13/04 8:07:50 PM, Musicloverrick writes: << I think myself that the reason some people may find Rod Stewart's "American Standards" albums to be objectionable is because his singing style on these two albums is so different than usual. He sings very softly and in a completely different manner than he usually does. A friend of mine and I recently made this distinction between Melissa Etheridge's usual work and a remake of Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You" that she did, which was not in her usually quite powerful singing style. It was done rather softly and smoothly. He did not like it because he did not enjoy hearing her sing this way...I, however must admit that I find it quite pleasurable when artists verge in new directions and try something new. Just my opinion though, and my possible explanation why people may not like Joni's Travelogue album as well....Since it is so different from her usual work. Rick >> Makes sense to me, Rick... I was never a huge Rod Stewart fan (loved some early stuff with the Faces, "Every Picture Tells A Story", etc.) but didn't care for his solo stuff until this "American Standards" thing came about. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:03:08 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords In a message dated 1/13/04 8:16:53 PM, Musicloverrick writes: << LOL I see I created a monster with that one....When I said she invented chords I was referring to a line in the "Woman of Heart And Mind" DVD where Joni herself says she was told many times by fellow musicians when she would play songs that, "There goes Joni with her strange chords," etc. She refers to how she was many times experimenting with new ways to play the guitar based on trying to recreate music she heard in her head. Maybe I didn't use the proper terminology, which I think may be the case....I do not have an extensive music education, so that is probably it. What I probably should have said, was that she played the guitar in ways that no one had ever really done before....Rick >> Yeah, Rick... I think we all just kind of knew what you meant but it DID create some good exchanges on this thread. I thought Catherine's & guitarzan's thoughts on this chord subject were quite perceptive and explains why people would feel she was "inventing" chords as no one had heard much like her alternate tunings previously. I'm hoping someone can do a little workshop on alternate tunings at this year's Jonifest because (even though I don't play guitar) I'd LOVE to learn a little about it. I once attended a concert where Tom Chapin (Harry's brother) explained a little bit about a "drop D tuning" he was using and I was fascinated by it. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:31:17 -0800 (PST) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! joining this sweet harmonic chorus .. happy birthday to our most beloved songbird, Claudy ;-) hugsnlove,magsnbrei xoxoxoxooxoxxo Scott and Jody wrote: I sent the International *NO sign* for Mercury in Retrograde to BF. He must not have received it yet, hence the communication breakdown on this day! If I may, I would be honored to wish a very gifted and wonderful woman A Very Happy Birthday lovely, sweetbird Claudia SanSouice!!!!!! You are in our thoughts today and everyday, much love, jody and scott NP-Claud and John-"If My Eyes Were Blind" ***** your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle everything i do is stitched with its colour. w.s.merwin Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:32:36 -0500 From: "Scott and Jody" Subject: Sorry - Jonionlies Sorry for not posting NJC to Claudia's Birthday Message. jody ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:09:45 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Hi David Why do you say that? You think all those later recordings did NOT have original melody? Or do you think the standards weren't quite as high? Or? Or? Best Michael > > Others, strictly speaking, invented their own chord sequences too: "You've > Got a Friend" is not lifted from any pre-existing song. But it's far less > surprising and unconventional than "I Don't Know Where I Stand." A similar > contrast > obtains, say, between "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" and "Shadow and Light." I > would say that regarding chord sequences, before she put her name to a song > she subjected herself to the highest possible standards of creativity. > > I'd also say that after MINGUS, this ceased to be true. > > DAVID > LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:10:19 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup This post made me smile a mile wide. Thanks. Paz > I was washing out my 2002 Jonifest coffee cup at work this morning and as I > looked at it, I had an overwhelming sense of pride about it. I was thrilled > it sat in a place where coworkers could walk by and see that I am indeed a > Jonilista! All of a sudden, I had to hear all things Joni! I ran back to my > desk and immediately pulled up my Real One player where my Joni is stored > and immediately clicked on strains of the CD Turbulent Indigo. Now the music > has flowed to Court and Spark and has settled on "The Same Situation". Oh > the power of that cup!!! the president and vice president of my organization > just walked by and was I deterred? No! A thousand times no! The cup makes me > shameless!!! Willl the annoying speaker-car of Lyndon LaRoche playing the > "Hallelujuah Chorus" passing by our building deter me? No! I will just turn > up the volume! "Car On the Hill" will prevail!!! Such is life in downtown > DC! > > Love, Sherelle > NP-"Down to You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:17:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! njc happy birthday, claudia!!!!! i love you and i miss you. wally, wondering why the BF didn't look at its BD list today... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:32:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: oh god njc dear paul, i'm so sad you've decided to go. i understand you, though. all of this shit is making me very weary. but years on the list have taught me the pleasures of the delete button. however, if this were my first contact with the list, i would feel just as annoyed as you do and leave and never look back. keep in touch. love, wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Paul > Mepschen > Enviado el: Martes, 13 de Enero de 2004 09:59 p.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: oh god njc > > > WHen I first joined this list I met two or three kind people, who were > welcoming. But I found out this list is as incrowd as incrowd gets > > Before I leave this annoying and pathetic excuse for a joni > mitchell internet > list, I want at least to have said that I think the US are in > fact the most > violent society history has ever created. Whether headed by > Clinton or Bush > makes no difference for the Palestians that catch American made > bullets, or > Columbian victims of your war on drugs, or sixteen year old black boys in > prison for the mere possession of some marihuana in your own country. > > On the other hand, I find it UNBELIEVABLE that people who love > joni mitchell > vote for and defend a blatant homophobic, fundamentalist, > pro-life fanatic. > What you hear in Joni's sounds is beyond me. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The streetlight's still burning; She always misses. > But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave. > That one little victory, that's all she needs! > Joni Mitchell: Sunny Sunday ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:14:28 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC Kate wrote: > PNAC is upfront about iraq but the bush administration has not > been...they gave several different rationale's for going to war in > iraq...i think more people think saddam had something to do with 9/11 > than there are people who know about the PNAC group's influence on the > administration... The rhetoric used to promote the war was very > deceitful... Kate, are you aware of these documents regarding the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 and what would be your interpretation of them? http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/libact103198.pdf Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:35:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 njc --- Musicloverrick@aol.com wrote: > Very strange that he died from the flu....That is > not quite as common as > people would think. He must have had a compromised > immune system. Rick > Rick, that's very likely. Those most likely to die from complications arising from the flu are those with pre-existing medical conditions such as lung disease, heart or kidney problems, diabetes and so on. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:50:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords **LOL I see I created a monster with that one....** Not at all Rick...far from it. I asked my question purely out of ignorance, and because of your initial comment and the discussion that followed, I got some great info from David Lahm, Randy Remote, and others, ie REAL musicians. Those unique guitar chords, and chord progressions, are what draw me to Joni as much as her words. After all, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing, right? So...keep those monsters comin' dude! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:04:46 -0500 From: Subject: 60 Minutes njc I saw O'Neill on (very) late-night talk TV last night. He said that he thinks President Bush is out of touch but he'll probably be voting for him in November 'cause there's noone better qualified. (Insert your own comment here.) About his "breech of security": He said he doesn't profit from the book at all. He co-operated but he's not a co-author. He said he asked the Justice Dept which documents he could share and Justice sent him 2 CDs of documents. He turned them over, unread, to the author. He said that the cover page for a classified document was on one of the CDs but not the rest of the document. All the best, Jim Jerry said, >I watched it but was taken aback when he said he had no ides his book or interview would upset the White House.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:06:45 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords I believe her priorities changed; melodically and harmonically, the 80s recordings sound (to me) much more static, with a flatter contour. There is far less to be surprised and wowed by. Perhaps she wanted to emphasize the message in the lyric more. Perhaps she got interested in experimenting with different timbres (a word I use to connote instrumental sounds). Whatever the reason, I (speaking for no one else) heard a very definite change after MINGUS and I gradually lost interest. The early sets are still the best non-concert stuff I've ever heard and she is at least the equal of anyone you'd care to call greatest songwriter in English of the 20th Century. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:45:32 -0500 From: Subject: John Guerin, 100% JC Hmm. How many North Hollywood "threads" are there? I have 2 in the past week. Earhart's birthplace and now this. Lurking but not dozing, eh? Lama >In 1975, Guerin was a founding member of the L.A. Express, a jazz fusion band composed of four studio musicians. Led by saxophonist Tom Scott, the top- flight roster also included guitarist Robben Ford and bassist Max Bennett. After hearing them play at a small jazz club in North Hollywood, Mitchell invited them into the studio when she was recording her Court and Spark album. They later went on tour with her as the opening act.> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:15:30 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: oh god njc > WHen I first joined this list I met two or three kind people, who were > welcoming. But I found out this list is as incrowd as incrowd gets > > Before I leave this annoying and pathetic excuse for a joni mitchell internet > list, I want at least to have said that I think the US are in fact the most > violent society history has ever created. Didn't you just last week ask for some jazz recommendations and get like, a million something replies, with plenty of suggestions to work with. I'm not sure how that is supposed to be equivalent to "annoying and pathetic" but perhaps someone could explain that to me. I'd write a longer post but I have to go out on the back deck and smoke some crack and listen to Joni Mitchell, who lives right here in the USA. Victor Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:24:37 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: RE January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! Claudia, Oh you with the voice of an angel and a heart as wide as the sea David &David send you the best Birthday Wishes be you here or there. xoxo Mingus&Rolls ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:36:39 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On inventing chords > From: PassScribe@aol.com > She also invented GUITAR chords, because those tunings > allowed notes and combinations of notes to be played that > could not have been played previously (on the guitar, that is). > Someone else, somewhere, may have invented some of the same > tunings/chords independantly, but they were not in the > popular lexicon of guitar playing. This is an interesting discussion. I've got 2 cents to give... First, I think Joni became interested in open tunings because they allowed her polio-affected left hand to create chords from less complicated shapes. With these open tunings, rather than having to use three fingers to create, say, a standard C chord she was able to get the same effect by simply laying one finger across all the strings. She then began experimenting with all kinds of different string pitches, tuning her guitar to the "sonic references of the day". As a result, when she used the same left hand shapes she got a completely different sound. I think it's important to know that Joni does not read music and doesn't really know a 3rd or a 5th from a hole in the ground - nor does she really care. So, I think it's misleading to say that she brilliantly invented all these "weird jazz chords". I mean, she did not consciously say "if I add an F# here and a B flat here I'll come up with this great diminished 7th minor suspended 9th inverted chord." Rather, her thought process was probably "ooohhh... when I tune this string down a bit I love the way it sounds!" When she began playing with others, then, it was left up to the musicians who knew enough theory to say "damn... let's see... that chord's got a 6th and a 9th and a..." Take "Amelia" for example. As complex as it is musically from a theory standpoint, Joni really only uses 2 or 3 left hand shapes throughout the whole song. The theoretical complexity arises out of the tuning of the guitar. I'm not diminshing her brilliance in any way, she was a pioneer of the guitar no doubt. I just think that a focus on her ability to create brilliant jazz chords is looking at it from the wrong perspective. But what the hell do I know? :-) Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:46:07 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: honesty - njc Kakki is anything but a liar. Have had much offline contact with her and have read everything she has ever posted. An above board lady. To be called that is terrible, to write the least. My mother would either administer a slap on the face or proceed to make us wash our mouths out with soap if we used the word. mack np: Hall and Oates ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:57:33 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords She had an ear/sensibility/soul that loved "brilliant jazz chords" however she might have found them. Loved them enough to make them a central part of the songs she offered in public. It is difficult to assign accurately a level of significance to the fact she was ignorant of coventional terminology. Certain relationships may (MAY!) have stayed in her memory or taste buds filed under who-knows?-what label. I myself would doubt that every time she started the process that ended up as "writing a song" her mind was a complete tabula rasa. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 02:09:49 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: honesty - njc my mother would load a gun with her pearls and shoot me. the verdict would be death by chic. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > mackoliver > Enviado el: Miircoles, 14 de Enero de 2004 01:46 a.m. > Para: joni > Asunto: Re: honesty - njc > > > Kakki is anything but a liar. Have had much offline contact with her and > have read everything she has ever posted. An above board lady. To be > called that is terrible, to write the least. My mother would either > administer a slap on the face or proceed to make us wash our > mouths out with > soap if we used the word. > > mack > > np: Hall and Oates ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:22:25 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On inventing chords David Lahm writes: > It is difficult to assign accurately a level of significance to > the fact she was ignorant of coventional terminology. > Certain relationships may (MAY!) have stayed in her memory > or taste buds filed under who-knows?-what label. I myself would > doubt that every time she started the process that ended up > as "writing a song" her mind was a complete tabula rasa. Agree totally. I just think that the 'spices' (ie... odd chords) that became a trademark of her music were, in large part, enabled by the open tunings on the guitar. I'd be interested in your opinion David. Take the Ladies of the Canyon album. Do you hear the same harmonic complexities on the piano songs as you do on the guitar songs? To me, piano songs like Willy and Rainy Night House are pretty standard harmonically; majors, minors, passing tones. The harmonic complexities in those songs come from her voice, not from the piano. Compare that with guitar songs like Conversation or The Priest. More complex harmonically? Because of the open tunings? I think she heard a sound in her head that she could sing (of course) and that the open tunings of the guitar allowed her... but maybe at this point she couldn't quite find them on piano yet. Les, rushing in where angels fear to tread with all these REAL musicians on the list... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #20 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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