From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2004 #16 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, January 11 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 016 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 ["ron" ] Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) ["ron" ] Re: Blue Raincoats and other acts of covering (njc) [Justalittlebreen@aol] Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) [fauchja@comcast.net] Re: Blue Raincoats and other acts of covering (njc) [fauchja@comcast.net] Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: BSN [Bobsart48@aol.com] Will Self on Love Actually njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: PNAC NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: PNAC NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: John Guerin [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: woo - hoo - what a bargain njc !!!!!!!!! ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: PNAC NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: PNAC NJC ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: John Guerin [Randy Remote ] Re: PNAC NJC [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: PNAC NJC/ labels ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: PNAC NJC/ labels ["Norman Pennington" ] Readin' The News And Its All Bad, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Both Sides Now [Musicloverrick@aol.com] Re: NJC/ labels ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #12 [Musicloverrick@aol.com] Re: BSN [Catherine McKay ] Re: PNAC NJC/ labels ["Norman Pennington" ] RE: PNAC NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:25:32 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: John Guerin 1939-2004 hi last night i was listeniug to my first "non joni" la express album. what a superb band - even without joni ............ and the drumming is an integral part of the album. rip john guerin ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:03 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) hi > > 1: What is your favorite word? i love you > > 2: What is your least favorite word? no (said in that obstinate pigheaded wont even listen to a word you say 'cause im just too stupid to make my own decisions way) > > 3: What turns you on? a beautiful, expressive passage of music > > 4: What turns you off? ignorance and closed minds > > 5: What sound do you love? a good guitar played skilfully > > 6: What sound do you hate? telephone ringing > > 7: What is your favorite curse word? oh crap > > 8: What profession other than yours would you like to attempt? run a music club > > 9: What profession would you not like to participate in? > accountancy (what i *am* doing now) > > 10: If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you > > arrive at the pearly gates? "come in" facetious answer : "GW Bush? No, sorry, we dont have anyone by that name here." ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:06:24 EST From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Re: Blue Raincoats and other acts of covering (njc) Jerry Notaro said: << And a two thumbs > up for the mentioned Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue > Raincoat. That cd, as is > her The Hunter, are among my favorites.>> Hey, Jerry, I'll be on the lookout for The Hunter now. I just recently was able to find "Famous Blue Raincoat" and I love it just as much as I ever did. I'm finding this to be the general trend -- if I liked something when I was in high school or college, and then listen to it as if for the first time after sometimes a 20-year gap, I find I like it at least as much, if not more. As for Judy covering Dylan, well... my experience with her in live performances on TV doesn't auger well. Her voice is as clear and strong as it ever was, but she has trouble keeping count -- she sometimes jumps measures, which must be a challenge for her side players, and she *still* sings off key from time to time. On one PBS Special, she rushed through BSN so fast, it coud've been "Both sides at once!" Actually, the thought of her covering the songs of someone like Dylan, for whom a vocal melody is, at best, a series of approximations (synesthetically, who should we compare him to, amongst painters? One of the Fauvists?), the outcome would have to be... interesting... interesting. Just a thought -- best to all, love & peace, Walt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:49:17 +0000 From: fauchja@comcast.net Subject: Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) - -- GUITAR GUY EXTRAORDINAIRE - ---------------------- Forwarded Message: --------------------- From: "ron" To: "Joni@Smoe.Org" Subject: Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:34:03 +0200 hi > > 1: What is your favorite word? epiphany > > 2: What is your least favorite word? tithe > > 3: What turns you on? an incredible guitar passage that I can't duplicate > > 4: What turns you off? people who throw their rights at me like carte blanche for stupidity and cruelty > > 5: What sound do you love good guitar > > 6: What sound do you hate? a car horn > > 7: What is your favorite curse word? the f word > > 8: What profession other than yours would you like to attempt? professional musician > > 9: What profession would you not like to participate in? > government employee (oh my god, I am one) > > 10: If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you > > arrive at the pearly gates? There's a jam session waiting for you with John Lennon, George Harrison, Jimi Hendrix, Johnny Cash, and John Belushi fauchja ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:51:05 +0000 From: fauchja@comcast.net Subject: Re: Blue Raincoats and other acts of covering (njc) delurkin again...her website is www.jenniferwarnes.com - -- GUITAR GUY EXTRAORDINAIRE > Jerry Notaro said: > > << And a two thumbs > > up for the mentioned Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue > > Raincoat. That cd, as is > > her The Hunter, are among my favorites.>> > Hey, Jerry, > I'll be on the lookout for The Hunter now. I just recently was able to find > "Famous Blue Raincoat" and I love it just as much as I ever did. I'm finding > this to be the general trend -- if I liked something when I was in high school > or college, and then listen to it as if for the first time after sometimes a > 20-year gap, I find I like it at least as much, if not more. > > As for Judy covering Dylan, well... my experience with her in live > performances on TV doesn't auger well. Her voice is as clear and strong as it > ever was, > but she has trouble keeping count -- she sometimes jumps measures, which must > be a challenge for her side players, and she *still* sings off key from time > to time. On one PBS Special, she rushed through BSN so fast, it coud've been > "Both sides at once!" > > Actually, the thought of her covering the songs of someone like Dylan, for > whom a vocal melody is, at best, a series of approximations (synesthetically, > who should we compare him to, amongst painters? One of the Fauvists?), the > outcome would have to be... interesting... interesting. > > Just a thought -- best to all, > > love & peace, > > Walt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:54:28 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) 7: What is your favorite curse word? Blair Hi Martin You are of course aware that 'bler' (pronounced as in the PM's name but with a circumflex over the vowel) in Welsh means 'untidy', 'negligent', 'sloppy'. meic ym marcelona ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:36:52 EST From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2003 DVD's Just a reminder that I will be putting another order in soon for Jonifest DVD's if anyone is interested in ordering. Please have all orders and money in by January 25th if you'd like to place an order. http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/store.cfm Also, if you have a defective DVD, please let me know by that date so I can take care of it at the same time. Thanks! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Byrds weed njc I have in my possession the Byrds Family Tree (thanks Stephen!) - a 2cd set of either one or two Dutch radio shows. I'm offering up 3 copies - looking for at least once person who can then copy it and offer it up to the list again. Jenny THE BYRDS - Family Tree Disc 1 1 (Dutch announcer) Tracks 2-11 - Byrds - Amsterdam - 1971 2 You Ain't Going Nowhere 3 Lover Of The Bayou 4 Old Blue 5 Welcome Back Home 6 My Back Pages/Baby What You Want Me To Do 7 He Was A Friend Of Mine 8-9 (Dutch announcer) 10 You Don't Miss Your Water - w/Gram Parsons 11 Hickory Wind - w/Gram Parsons 12-13 (Dutch announcer) 14 Blackbird - CSN - Wembley - 1974 15-16 (Dutch announcer) Tracks 17-23 - Flying Burrito Brothers - Amsterdam - 1970 17 One Hundred Years From Now 18 (stage banter) 19 My Uncle 20 Cody, Cody 21 (stage banter) 22 Devil In Disguise 23 Clinch Mountain Backstep 24 (Dutch announcer) Disc 2 1 It Doesn't Matter - Manassas - (same venue/date as below) 2 (Dutch announcer) Tracks 3-4 - Byrds - Rome - 1968 3 Mr. Spaceman & I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better 4 Chimes Of Freedom 5 (Dutch announcer) Tracks 6-7 - McGuinn - Netherlands - 1991 6 Without Your Love 7 Turn Turn Turn 8 (Dutch announcer) Tracks 9-16 - Manassas - Amsterdam - 3/22/72 9 4 + 20 10 Bluesman 11 Word Game 12 Do For The Others 13 Move Around 14 Both Of Us (Bound To Lose) 15 Love The One You're With 16 He Was A Friend Of Mine 17 (Dutch announcer) frasere@intergate.ca wrote: Hi Jenny, Yep! You are #2. Will get it sent to you real soon. Enjoy the holidays. Stephen Quoting Jenny Goodspeed : > Hi Stephen - If you have one left, I would love a copy. Happy Holidays! > Jenny > > my address: > Jenny Goodspeed > 45 Wendell Road > Shutesbury, MA 01072 > > > frasere@intergate.ca wrote: > Hello all, > > In the spirit of the holidays, I am offering copies of the below. The TWO Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:21:17 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Actor's Studio questions... (njc) Kate, you stole my alternate profession! Did anyone watch Michelle Kwan last night? Just gorgeous. My answers: 1: What is your favorite word? shimmer 2: What is your least favorite word? pus 3: What turns you on? harmonizing 4: What turns you off? self-absorption 5: What sound do you love? opening chords to Hejira 6: What sound do you hate? forks scratching dinner plates 7: What is your favorite curse word? f*ck me 8: What profession other than yours would you like to attempt? figure skater or brain researcher 9: What profession would you not like to participate in? on-the-beat reporter for local TV news station or garbage collector 10: If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates? "See, you were wrong. Welcome home" Jenny Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:14:10 EST From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: Re: John Guerim Peace to him and a loving hug for all of you who will miss him...rock and roll heaven... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:31:06 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: john guerin Really sad to hear of the passing of John Guerin, a great musician who will be sorely missed. I loved his work with Joni especially on THOSL and C&S. Condolences to his family and friends. Joe. np: Joni THOSL. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:48:11 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN Mike Wood and Bob Muller exchanged "** The world (well, my world) would be an infinitely poorer place without both BSN **" "And since I sprung for the first release (the hatbox) of BSN, my world would be about 50 bucks richer without it! :~) All kidding aside, I'm glad that you & many others are so moved by this project." I played the "BSN originals" CD (courtesy of Simon and Jim ?) in the car yesterday while my wife was driving (she knows all these songs - I won't say how). After Billie and Ella's versions of "You've Changed", I snuck in Joni's without her noticing. Her reaction - "Who's this ? She's really good" After a few chuckles and some more prompting, I told her it was Joni (she had heard Joni's version before, of course, and had not liked it in context of the whole CD). Well - her reaction this time - "She's really good at sad. Her voice sure has changed, though". Pretty good short review, I thought. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:50:17 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Will Self on Love Actually njc Quoth the great man: "People like to be manipulated emotionally. Love Actually is like the death of Diana - it enables the lowest common denominator of hysteria to get going. It may be an analogue of our denial of the nasty things that are being done and not knowing. It's geared to our short attention spans. It's geared to the banalisation of our emotion." It's an interesting point of view, in his typically take-no-prisoners style. Wanna add that to your portfolio of snappy comebacks, Wally?? :-) Azeem in London NP: Linda Thompson - Dreams Fly Away: An Anthology. Ah, what a voice... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:42 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC ~~Sunday...bloody Sunday!~~ I get back from the girl friend's house this morning to find 121 unread in the ol' inbox, of which there are 99 left to wade through! Jeez, this new hobby of mine certainly burns cycles!! I doubt if I'll have time to read/reply to all of these MOST interesting messages/thoughts until tomorrow, but...in the meantime... Kate sez in reply to Kakki: > >But I don't think the "neo-cons" were really looking for an excuse to > have a war and invade the middle east just for some kind of > imperialistic power. I think whatever motivations or concerns they have > are based in preserving liberty and defending the country.< > > I think these folks are very clear about wanting the usa to be the only > power & an economic one at that: > > "We aim to make the case and rally support for American global > leadership. As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States > stands as the world's preeminent power...Does the United States have the > resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and > interests?" > > They define these interests as "political and economic freedom abroad" > and "extending an international order friendly to our security, our > prosperity, and our principles." > http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm > Now, it certainly appears to me that you interpret the quoted words very differently than I, Kate. "Preeminent" doesn't mean "only," it means the first among a group...the leader, if you will. No one can deny that the USA IS the preeminent power in the world today...it is what it is. And just what is wrong with shaping the new century so that it is FAVORABLE to our principles and interests? No one is throwing words like "hegemony" or "control" around...the writers would like to the US government to exercise leadership to create an environment favorable to our interests. Think back to the Cold War. Would we be better off if the USSR had become the preeminent power in the 21st century? Would a 21st century favorable to SOVIET principles and interests be more desirable than American interests? For that matter, substitute the words "Islamic fundamentalist principles and interests" for "American" and what do you get? It strikes me that liberals view "PNAC/Rebuilding America's Defences" as something akin to "Mein Kampf." While I haven't finished reading the entire 90 pages, I find much to like in this document. I don't find a roadmap to world domination therein...the doc is what Kakki so rightly stated in another message I've read this morning...it's a White Paper, and a pretty good one (from what I've read so far). Maybe you liberals will find Perle and Frum's new book equally alarming... Best Regards, bp NP: A bright beautiful Sunday morning on the eastern New Mexico plains ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:37:44 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC I don't know about Newt, but all I can add is "Hear, HEAR!!" Well said, David. I'm sure there are those who will will accuse you of "arrogance," but so be it. bp - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:17 PM Subject: Re: PNAC NJC > I guess we could go 'round and 'round on the meaning of the word power. The > little I know of PNAC (I've tuned in to some speeches on C-SPAN) leads me to > believe that what they urge is something like this: > > America leads and the other "powers" follow; there is an > American outlook, an American way which is responsible for the remarkable success > our country has achieved. This should be sufficient argument for any rational > person or government to sign on and endorse America's ideals and the policies > which put those ideals into action. > > America has defeated and dismantled two great totalitarian > threats to civilization in our lifetime and thereby earned the role of leader. > Other nations may attain the appearance or status of "power" but in the crunch, > they need to defer to American wisdom and if they do not, America has the > responsibility to its own citizens and to humanity to confront alone if necessary > further threats to freedom and security. > > How was that, Mister Gingrich? DAVID > LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:49:44 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: John Guerin Mary P wrote: "But mainly, I got out my vinyl copy of Hissing just to read the end of the acknowledgments on the inside of the cover: "I would especially like to thank [. . .] John Guerin for showing me the root of the chord and where 1 was." Thank you from me, too, John, for your contributions to Miles of Aisles and The Hissing of Summer Lawns, among the many, ...." I got out my vinyl and CD, too, and noticed a couple of oddities: 1. The "1" in "where 1 was" was replaced with "where I was" on the CD insert. I imagine this was a deliberate edit - I wonder whether by Joni or by whoever was in charge of the CD insert remake. (My guess - not Joni - and the the 1 was deliberate, thought obscure). 2. Both ascribe THOSL as "written and composed by John Guerin and Joni Mitchell, Crazy Crow Music BMI/ MadMan's Drum Music ASCAP". Joni writes "John Guerin and I collaborated on THOSL". I wonder if they collaborated on either, both or neither of the words and music, separately, and who was responsible for which. I always assumed that the lyrics were all Joni's (though I have no clear basis for that, except the inference that the lyrics are so strong that only a top lyricist could have composed them). This is a fine song musically, too - it is so rich that it could easily have involved a collaboration. 3. I believe this is the first song that Joni ever recorded with a co-writing credit. Quite an honor - and the album's title song, to boot !! 4. The "MadMan's Drum Music" tag was no doubt Guerin's - I refer back to the opening line of C&S - "Love came to my door With a sleeping roll And a madman's soul ". Joni has attributed that title's inspiration to her relationship with Guerin, but I had not noticed until now the "madman" connection. The C&S title song, The Same Situation, THOSL title song, Blue Motel Room and perhaps others (like Car On A Hill ?) immortalize and memorialize Guerin within Joni's catalogue, at least in my mind. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:01:43 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: woo - hoo - what a bargain njc !!!!!!!!! ron sez: > well - its good when good things happen to good people - but its way, way > better when they happen to me :-) > > just stopped off at a local 2nd hand shop. at just the right time - someone > leaving the country had sold off a whole pile of cds - just imagine - jeff > beck, johnny winter, geirge harrison, weather report, john coltrane, tom scott > & la express, john mcloughlin, mahavishnu orchestra, mountain, brecker > brothers, david benoit, george benson, heart, larry carlton, stanley clark, > billy cobham, and the band all on sale for 19 rand (around US$2.50) !!!!!! > normal price here is 200 to 250 rand!!!! > > i bought 32 cds :-) now where do i start.................................. > > > ron WOW! It's GREAT to be you, Ron! I'm envious! Now...as to "where to start?"...I'd begin with The Silver Train...Johnny Winter!! bp NPIMH: JW's "TV Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:58:28 -0600 From: Subject: Re: Re: John Guerin Bobsart wrote: "I got out my vinyl and CD, too, and noticed a couple of oddities: 1. The "1" in "where 1 was" was replaced with "where I was" on the CD insert. I imagine this was a deliberate edit - I wonder whether by Joni or by whoever was in charge of the CD insert remake. (My guess - not Joni - and the the 1 was deliberate, thought obscure)." Bob, I'm on digest, so pardon the repetition if someone's beat me to the punch here, so to speak. However, from a past discussion I on this list, my impression is that the "1" was deliberate. (You had more faith in Joni's thouroughness and care in presentation than I did; I went through years fully believing that this was a typo!). But my recollection is that the "1" has something to do with chord structure; maybe it's even the "root of the chord." I read this thank-you to Guerin as operating on two levels: 1) thank you for helping me sort out some technical issues in the writing and recording of this musically complex album, and 2) thank you for helping me see where my center was in our personal life. However, especially on the significance of "1", my memory (and knowledge) is very shaky. Any musicians out there who can help out here? Mary. P.S. FWIW, I've always interpreted most of _Hejira_ to be "about" John Guerin, and the aftermath of his and Joni's breakup, in that songs can ever have exact biographical referents. I don't know that I ever thought "Coyote" referred to him, although that makes sense, now that I'm aware of his connection with horses and ranching. But I've always thought he was he man she left at the North Dakota junction; assumed he was "Strange Boy," and also, thought he was the one (of "boom boom pachyderm fame!) that she was pining away for, quite despite herself, in that blue hotel room in Savannah. Going a bit further into the catalogue, I've also associated Guerin with "Off-night Backstreet": no reason; just timing, and a feeling. Take any of this for what it's worth, which is, admittedly, not a lot. But I think many of us do guiltily play the connect-the-dots game. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. . . ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:51:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: PNAC NJC Actually, some of these guys *are* throwing the word hegemony around - a kinder gentler hegemony, but hegemony nonetheless. (Is hegemony still benevolant when we use arms to force regime change?) My question: Is there an assumption that shaping the next century to favor American principles and interests would benefit other countries as well? Or will it be at the expense of some. Allies benefit and enemies get on board or suffer the consequences? "Yer either with us or agin us." They see the world in black and white and are dismayed at the level of cultural and moral relativism in recent years. There is a self-centeredness, paternalism, and arrogance inherent in their views that is disturbing to people -liberal or conservative. What happens if a situation arises where the promotion of political and economic freedom in a particular country or region is in fact at odds with American interests, what then? The ..Rebuilding America policy paper is akin to a white paper, I agree. The paper isn't the real issue. The issue is the "signatures" at the bottom of the PNAC statement of principles: among others: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and a few other less well known defense and national security officials. (no George, but we do get Jeb!). These principles of course have been and will continue to be put into action. One thing you gotta give them credit for is coming right out and saying they want to shape the world to favor American interests. I loathe it when the government spins military action solely as a humanitarian effort. Norman Pennington said Maybe you liberals will find Perle and Frum's new book equally alarming... you liberals? who are you referring to exactly? labels suck. jenny Norman Pennington wrote: ~~Sunday...bloody Sunday!~~ I get back from the girl friend's house this morning to find 121 unread in the ol' inbox, of which there are 99 left to wade through! Jeez, this new hobby of mine certainly burns cycles!! I doubt if I'll have time to read/reply to all of these MOST interesting messages/thoughts until tomorrow, but...in the meantime... Kate sez in reply to Kakki: > >But I don't think the "neo-cons" were really looking for an excuse to > have a war and invade the middle east just for some kind of > imperialistic power. I think whatever motivations or concerns they have > are based in preserving liberty and defending the country.< > > I think these folks are very clear about wanting the usa to be the only > power & an economic one at that: > > "We aim to make the case and rally support for American global > leadership. As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States > stands as the world's preeminent power...Does the United States have the > resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and > interests?" > > They define these interests as "political and economic freedom abroad" > and "extending an international order friendly to our security, our > prosperity, and our principles." > http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm > Now, it certainly appears to me that you interpret the quoted words very differently than I, Kate. "Preeminent" doesn't mean "only," it means the first among a group...the leader, if you will. No one can deny that the USA IS the preeminent power in the world today...it is what it is. And just what is wrong with shaping the new century so that it is FAVORABLE to our principles and interests? No one is throwing words like "hegemony" or "control" around...the writers would like to the US government to exercise leadership to create an environment favorable to our interests. Think back to the Cold War. Would we be better off if the USSR had become the preeminent power in the 21st century? Would a 21st century favorable to SOVIET principles and interests be more desirable than American interests? For that matter, substitute the words "Islamic fundamentalist principles and interests" for "American" and what do you get? It strikes me that liberals view "PNAC/Rebuilding America's Defences" as something akin to "Mein Kampf." While I haven't finished reading the entire 90 pages, I find much to like in this document. I don't find a roadmap to world domination therein...the doc is what Kakki so rightly stated in another message I've read this morning...it's a White Paper, and a pretty good one (from what I've read so far). Maybe you liberals will find Perle and Frum's new book equally alarming... Best Regards, bp NP: A bright beautiful Sunday morning on the eastern New Mexico plains Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:18:43 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC Jenny, Yes, labels do suck. But...you're assuming I'm using the word "liberal" in a perjorative manner. This is not true, anymore than I would assign negative connotations to the word "conservative." Alan Colmes, of "Hannity and Colmes" fame, has often said he's a liberal and proud of it. What term would you like me to use? If it suits your purpose, I'll hereafter refer to liberals as "Enligthened, socially-progressive individuals of conscience." Best Regards, bp Maybe you liberals will find Perle and Frum's new book equally alarming... you liberals? who are you referring to exactly? labels suck. jenny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:23:42 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: John Guerin I had always thought it was "showing me where I was"...but in drummer lingo, the "1" is the downbeat of the bar; the 1 in 1,2,3,4. My guess is that the typesetter for the CD just misread it as I did, and inserted the I. "Where 1 was" ain't proper wordin'! Bobsart, great connections! RR blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > Bobsart wrote: > > "I got out my vinyl and CD, too, and noticed a couple of oddities: > > 1. The "1" in "where 1 was" was replaced with "where I was" on the CD > insert. I imagine this was a deliberate edit - I wonder whether by Joni or by > whoever was in charge of the CD insert remake. (My guess - not Joni - and the > the > 1 was deliberate, thought obscure)." > > Bob, I'm on digest, so pardon the repetition if someone's beat me to the punch > here, so to speak. However, from a past discussion I on this list, my > impression is that the "1" was deliberate. (You had more faith in Joni's > thouroughness and care in presentation than I did; I went through years fully > believing that this was a typo!). > > But my recollection is that the "1" has something to do with chord structure; > maybe it's even the "root of the chord." I read this thank-you to Guerin as > operating on two levels: 1) thank you for helping me sort out some technical > issues in the writing and recording of this musically complex album, and 2) > thank you for helping me see where my center was in our personal life. > > However, especially on the significance of "1", my memory (and knowledge) is > very shaky. Any musicians out there who can help out here? > > Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:31:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: PNAC NJC i have to admit the word "you" inserted before "liberal" did have a pejorative ring to it to my ears. Norman Pennington wrote: What term would you like me to use? If it suits your purpose, I'll hereafter refer to liberals as "Enligthened, socially-progressive individuals of conscience." Yes that would be much better, do you mind? I guess you could shorten it to ESPICs if that would be easier for you. ; ) Jenny (who doesn't identify with any political label, but probably appears liberal-ish from the outside) Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:55:56 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: PNAC NJC/ labels >> Yes, labels do suck. .. What term would you like me to use? Best Regards, bp << then don't use them at all ... you can define your own self with a label if you want but don't define others as it usually ends up being insulting...here is a thought...debate your point without the use of labels at all....respond to the individual who is writing rather than resort to generalizations & exaggerated analogies...its a much more interesting way to argue a point i think... for instance when you wrote: >It strikes me that liberals view "PNAC/Rebuilding America's Defences" as something akin to "Mein Kampf." < this kind of statement is so counter productive to a healthy debate...i feel it is also disrespectful to respond to someone is such a manner...I am interested in what you & Kakki others have to say because it is so different from how I think... But I don't assume either of you fit into some typical 'conservative' way of thinking, nor would I turn around & tell you what that looks like or how that is defined... we are complex human beings whose individual experiences go into how we perceive the world...let's not resort to anything that does not reflect this reality... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:39:25 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC/ labels Kate said: > >> Yes, labels do suck. .. What term would you like me to use? Best > Regards, bp << > > then don't use them at all ... you can define your own self with a > label if you want but don't define others as it usually ends up being > insulting...here is a thought...debate your point without the use of > labels at all....respond to the individual who is writing rather than > resort to generalizations & exaggerated analogies...its a much more > interesting way to argue a point i think... for instance when you > wrote: > > >It strikes me that liberals view "PNAC/Rebuilding America's Defences" > as something akin to "Mein Kampf." < > > this kind of statement is so counter productive to a healthy debate...i > feel it is also disrespectful to respond to someone is such a manner...I > am interested in what you & Kakki others have to say because it is so > different from how I think... But I don't assume either of you fit into > some typical 'conservative' way of thinking, nor would I turn around & > tell you what that looks like or how that is defined... we are complex > human beings whose individual experiences go into how we perceive the > world...let's not resort to anything that does not reflect this > reality... > I'm quoting your entire post for context, Kate. I totally disagree with your first point. ALL political discourse is conducted within the confines of how one defines one's POV. It is neither demeaning nor insulting to identify a particular POV, along with those that support that POV, as being either liberal or conservative. Examples abound, whether one is speaking about which side of the aisle one sits in the US House or which side of the "divide" one sits in the House of Commons. (I don't know what the space between the two sides in the HoC is called.) Newspapers are commonly referred to as "liberal" or "conservative, as are TV networks, web sites, books, authors, politicians, you, and I. I used the Mein Kampf analogy as "short hand" for a larger point. You and Patrick have accused Kakki and I of not being "deep" in our political thinking because we haven't been exposed to the PNAC document and the two of you are **constantly** dragging the thing out as evidence of the neo-conseratives' arrogance, unbridled ambition, lust for world domination and many other nefarious aims. Mein Kampf laid out Hitler's aims and vision in great detail. There were those in the 1930s that cried out "Danger!!" loud and long about that demented SOB's true aims and ambitions, only to lose out to the pacifist, accomodating policies of Chamberlain (who was a Labour PM...a liberal, I might add), et al (I mean the Isolationist POV in the US). Admittedly, the roles of the two parties (neo-cons and Nazis) are diametrically opposed (and please don't be tempted to shout "Oh, no they're NOT!"), but the fact that there were/are those who cry "Danger!" when viewing an actual/perceived roadmap to disaster are NOT. I believe my analogy stands and the point was perfectly in order. You just need to think about the point a little bit. If you don't understand the point I'm making...ask, and I will clarify. As I've said before, I enjoy honest debate free from name-calling. I find your lecture above mildly inflammatory...and feel as if I've been "taken to the woodshed." Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:51:16 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Readin' The News And Its All Bad, njc Not. On this day in 1935, Amelia Earhart became the first *pilot to cross the Pacific, solo. http://www.ameliaearhart.com/about/achievements.html January 11, 1935 - First person to solo the 2,408-mile distance across the Pacific between Honolulu and Oakland, California; also first flight where a civilian aircraft carried a two-way radio. All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:57:59 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Well I may not be a musician, but considering that Joni Mitchell has guitar chords that she actually INVENTED and has more guitar tunings in her catalog of music than everyone but a few other artists, I don't think it's fair to really say she HAS a weak area...The woman is a genius. No two ways about it. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:58:52 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Well I may not be a musician, but considering that Joni Mitchell has guitar chords that she actually INVENTED and has more guitar tunings in her catalog of music than everyone but a few other artists, I don't think it's fair to really say she HAS a weak area...The woman is a genius. No two ways about it. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:04:07 -0500 From: vince Subject: NJC/ labels >I believe my >analogy stands and the point was perfectly in order. You just need to think >about the point a little bit. If you don't understand the point I'm >making...ask, and I will clarify. > that is about as insulting a thing as could be posted - if only you think more you will agree with me and the Chamberlain reference does not work. Chamberlain had a penis. He accommodated Hitler. Thus everyone with a penis accommodated Hitler. Everyone with a penis accommodates evil. That is the same level of saying he was a liberal, etc. etc. etc. The Chamberlain has been overdone to death. Try Reagan and Bush 1 supported Saddam Hussein. They were conservatives. Therefore all conservatives support Saddam Hussein and should never be allowed near the Oval Office. That one I could live with. All the aid that Reagan and Bush 1 sent to Saddam which allowed him to use other resources to gas Iranians but that was ok with Reagan and Bush because they were anti-Iran but suddenly became wrong when a new philosophy came along - how about Reagan and Bush ran an amoral foreign policy (which is why they ran against Carter's human rights policy) and made decisions of convenience for short term goals (as with Jeanne Kilpatrick's distinguishing between bad dictators that we opposed and good authoritarian regimes that we supported) so therefore no one who think like Reagan and Bush should be allowed near the Oval office because they accommodate evil as it suits their short term policy goals. I would live with that. So thus we close our eyes to Putin's human rights abuses and commit them ourselves in locking people in camps for indefinite time periods now exceeded two years with no charges, no access to attorneys, no contact with anyone... which is a new American horror that astounds. I am a liberal. Martin Luther King was a liberal. I know of no social advances in this country that was not proposed by those called liberals and opposed by - shall we say - non liberals. I am a liberal. I want the Constitution followed. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:33:15 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Well even though I am not a musician I don't think it is even fair to say Joni has a weak area...I mean the woman writes her own words AND music, plays her own instruments, does the actual artwork for MANY of her album covers, ANd produces them herself....NOT TO MENTION that her catalog of songs has one of the HIGHEST numbers of guitar tunings than almost anyone out there. Also several of her songs have guitar chords that she created herself based on music she heard in her head....chords that were never played before by anyone....Sorry if I am wrong but that seems to me that there is no way you could call her instrument playing a weak area. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:34:16 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: NJC/ labels vince sez: > >I believe my > >analogy stands and the point was perfectly in order. You just need to think > >about the point a little bit. If you don't understand the point I'm > >making...ask, and I will clarify. > > > > that is about as insulting a thing as could be posted - if only you > think more you will agree with me > I found the following statement regarding my Mein Kampf reference to be mildly insulting: "this kind of statement is so counter productive to a healthy debate...i feel it is also disrespectful to respond to someone is such a manner..." A simple "What the Hell do you mean by THAT?" rather than accusing me of disrespect would have been an example of debate. I'll think more, Vince, if you'll agree to be less stupid. Yes, I am resulting to "name-calling." While I haven't relegated you to the kill file, you're damned close. The remainder of your post, written in haste (check the relative times of our two posts), is beneath response. Buck, who's had enough and is going back over to the girl friend's house ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:40:42 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #12 While I can see Kate's point, I also know that the reason many of these companies go overseas is NOT to help out the people in the foreign countries who work for them, but rather to screw American workers by not having to pay them decent wages, and also by fattening their pockets even more by paying very cheap wages for the same work. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: BSN --- Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > I played the "BSN originals" CD (courtesy of Simon > and Jim ?) in the car > yesterday while my wife was driving (she knows all > these songs - I won't say how). > After Billie and Ella's versions of "You've > Changed", I snuck in Joni's > without her noticing. Her reaction - "Who's this ? > She's really good" After a few > chuckles and some more prompting, I told her it was > Joni (she had heard Joni's > version before, of course, and had not liked it in > context of the whole CD). > Well - her reaction this time - "She's really good > at sad. Her voice sure has > changed, though". I'm wondering if that "in the context of the whole CD" thing might not be the crux of the biscuit. I find, whether I'm listening to BSN or Travelogue, I can't listen to the whole thing, or any more than maybe 3 or 4 songs from either of these, without finding they all start to sound the same. On the other hand, when I listen to one or only a few songs from either of these CDs and/or I don't listen too often, I enjoy them more. This isn't an experience I have with any other Joni album though. Joni is indeed good at sad - these days, good at world-weary too. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:29:04 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: PNAC NJC/ labels I stand corrected. My apologies. Best Regards, bp ----- Original Message ----- From: tantra-apso To: Norman Pennington Cc: Kate Bennett ; 'Jenny Goodspeed' ; 'kakki' ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 4:16 PM Subject: Re: PNAC NJC/ labels Norman Pennington wrote: There were those in the 1930s that cried out "Danger!!" loud and long about that demented SOB's true aims and ambitions, only to lose out to the pacifist, accomodating policies of Chamberlain (who was a Labour PM...a liberal, I might add), Chamberlain was a TORY, right wing, conservative PM. Labour and Liberal are two different ideologies in theis country, with Conservsative being a third. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:02:44 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: PNAC NJC >Now, it certainly appears to me that you interpret the quoted words very differently than I, Kate...just what is wrong with shaping the new century so that it is FAVORABLE to our principles and interests? No one is throwing words like "hegemony" or "control" around..< I am interested in how differently these documents are interpreted by some...it reminds me of how our discussions of joni's lyrics, we often disagree...such is the nature of words & our individual 'filters' in which they pass through... There is more background to this story. The intro to PNAC's 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' says "we saw this project as building upon the defense strategy outlined by the Cheney Defense Department in the waning days of the Bush administration. The Defense Policy Guidance (DPG) drafted in the early months of 1992 provided a blueprint..." The document, which was leaked to the NY Times in early 1992 & caused quite a commotion with these excerpts: "our first objective is to prevent the reemergence of a new rival" "deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role" convince "potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests." It never mentions the UN... The DPG was written by two relatively obscure political appointees in the Pentagon's policy department in the aftermath of the Gulf War, named Paul Wolfowitz (now Deputy Security of Defense) and I. Lewis Libby (now Vice President Cheney's chief-of-staff)...Cheney was asked by Bush's top foreign policy aides, Brent Scowcroft and James Baker to tone it down which they did. The 2000 paper states "The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." Like Jenny mentioned, the PNAC documents are very upfront about their goals. Unfortunately the Bush administration is not. To get back to your question, yes there is much that I find wrong with 'shaping' the century so that it is favorable to 'our' interests... First, when PNAC writes 'our' interests, to me it reads 'their' interests because their world view as defined is a 'Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity'... Whoa baby, morality? Reagan &/or any of his followers defining morality is not my view of morality...it has been my experience that those who would legislate morality are least qualified to do so... Second, 'shaping' the world in our own (business) interests has in the past been responsible for destroying democracy & empowering dictatorships (Shah of Iran, General Noriega and Saddam Hussein) or others (Osama bin Laden) which eventually turn against US interests requiring an escalation of US military intervention... yadayadayada I prefer the world view spoken by President Dwight D Eisenhower, both a republican & military general...his words so easily describe our current situation & a warning against those who view US military intervention as a "as a constant fixture" yet who strangely enough avoided participating in a war themselves... some excerpts: "We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment... Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology -- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger it poses promises to be of indefinite duration... Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. (such as) A huge increase in newer elements of our defense... A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction... This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together... Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow... Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years..." [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2004 #16 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)