From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #612 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, December 10 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 612 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: here we go again - the nature of this list [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: Prayers njc [dsk ] Lists NJC [dsk ] Cool Water - What CD Is That On? ["Bill Bubb" ] RE: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? [Catherine McKay ] a small steely dan question NJC [Emily Tedrowe ] Re: a small steely dan question NJC [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: twisted covers NJC [Jerry Notaro ] oh man Joni going be that close ["Loa Nickloy" ] Re: a small steely dan question NJC [Emily Tedrowe ] um, how about njc? (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Fw: A Response (NJC) (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Joni mention in Esquire [frasere@intergate.ca] RE: Here we go again [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder)] Re: Here we go again [Bob Shemkovitz ] just stop (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Miles of Aisles ["Donna Binkley" ] in this holiday season [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] RE: How I came upon Joni's Music [Steve Polifka Subject: Here we go again I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion lists I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. (I'm speaking in general here, and not specifically about the call for funds for MG.) All of this *on-list*, community involvement in each other's personal lives has made me uncomfortable here from the first, and, in my opinion, it has always been a potential powder keg -- one which is now about to blow, it would appear. I have been moved to post at length, several times over the past couple of years, as to my rationale for feeling this way (so I won't again tonight), and, in doing so, I have made some (imo) very persuasive arguments for there being a different "environment" here on what is supposed to me the J(oni)M(itchell)D(iscussion)L(ist). "Joni Only" is not the answer for me -- nor should it be my alternative -- as my interests are more wide-ranging as they pertain to music and other arts enjoyed by fans of Joni Mitchell. How about, instead, if people want to have a "supportive friends' list," they be asked to start a new "supportive friends' list" instead? Those same people could be active here on the JMDL, as well, if the topics are of sufficient interest to them. How many active posters are there here, really? Thirty, maybe? Do we have any idea what that number represents, percentage-wise, verses the total number of subscribers? Think of the music content we are likely missing because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing that goes on ad nauseum. How many people come to the list via the website (as I did), lurk for a week or so, and then unsub? I'll bet it's a fair number. Either that or they continue to lurk for the perverse enjoyment of watching you all. I've stayed because Joni Mitchell is one of the handful of artists who's meant the most to me in my lifetime, and because there are people here whose posts I genuinely look forward to reading. Jim Valid points I guess...but I for one (though I rarely or never actually get really personal here) enjoy the almost intimate goings on here. If I don't want to read something, I just skip it. I end up skipping, or barely skimming, most of it. It really does seem like a kind of community to me. Didn't NJC this because the subject is something all might be interested in. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:13:08 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Prayers njc Kate Bennett wrote: > > Whether or not you believe in a higher power doesn't matter...i have > seen some amazing transformations come about due to the power of prayer, > especially when so many are involved...i would like to suggest that > people put their thoughts & energy into prayers of health for mg...i've > seen miracles happen too... It's extremely sad to me, and frightening in the "if it could happen to MG, it could happen to me too!" way, and it feels completely wrong that MG could be so sick. It just doesn't fit. She's too joyful and too caring, so caring that if she does know about the discussions on the list, she would be the first to forgive everyone, and with humor and love put it all into some bigger picture. That's her talent that has always impressed me the most. Regarding all the turmoil on the list, my thought is that *sometimes* people express their sorrow or fear in unexpected, inappropriate ways, distracting ways. Money talk is a common distraction. So is anger. So is disparagement. Perhaps that is happening here. Like Kate, I'm also a believer in the power of prayer, mysterious as it is, and urge everyone to send your energy and hope and peace and prayers toward MG and her family now. (I know her name is Mary Grace, but she'll always be MGVal to me.) Debra Shea, with no apologies for discussing feelings on the joni list ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:17:51 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Lists NJC Posted on another discussion list: THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush a lot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list). OR 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:22:34 -0700 From: "Bill Bubb" Subject: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? Though this isn't one of Joni's original writings, she does an excellent job with singing this haunting song. I miss it. What CD is it on? Is there any guitar tablature anywhere (on the internet) of this wonderful tune? Thanks. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:27:38 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Here we go again > I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list > (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are > directed) Who is you people? All of > this *on-list*, community involvement in each other's personal lives has > made me uncomfortable here from the first, and, On the contrary, I think there is very little, if any, involvement in each other's personal lives . There are only a handful of people that know anything about my personal life and that has always been off list. in my opinion, it has always > been a potential powder keg -- one which is now about to blow, it would > appear. Amelia, it's just a false alarm...( sorry couldn't resist) but seriously, in my opinion, what creates a problem is not developing a closekit community. Considering the music of Joni Mitchell, it seems almost inevitable. What I think the heart of the problem is, is using this as a place for venting which is destructive and tends to be counterproductive to a peaceful community that is largely about music as far as I can tell. And there has been alot of venting lately, which makes people uncomfortable(me included)and tends to bring up control issues. It would seem there are now going to be several posts from people telling the list how they should be conducting their business in the jmdl. > How many active posters are there here, really? Thirty, maybe? Do we have > any idea what that number represents, percentage-wise, verses the total > number of subscribers? Think of the music content we are likely missing > because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing that goes on ad nauseum. >How many people come to the list via the website (as I did), lurk for a week > or so, and then unsub? I'll bet it's a fair number. Either that or they > continue to lurk for the perverse enjoyment of watching you all. There are clearly some issues on this list that need to be resolved but this last paragraph is just more venting and continuing this negativity that has cropped up. I agree with you in that this list has in some ways, become an extension of jonifest which has been going on for some time now. As someone who has been part of both for a long time, I see some real challenges in maintaining them and how they interact together. There is no touchy-feely close knit group though. It is each person's individual decision how much they want to participate in the jmdl. And people here are adults(most of them anyway.) They can choose whether or not they want to subscribe for themselves. I haven't seen a lack of music content here in fact its mostly been about music so I'm not sure why this argument is even being made here. For some reason, I keep thinking of Alice in Wonderland at the end of the story when the queen is ordering her beheaded, all chaos breaks loose, and she says, "You're all just a pack of cards." That's what this list feels like sometimes. Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:31:31 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) Re : "Jim Leonard" Re : Subject: Here we go again Well, I'm not sure I agree with much of this though as a point of view it merits response. Far from discarding the broad scope of the general music and joni interest which this forum sponsors among all contributing and lurking parties, I think what has evolved here with respect to 'community' is testament to the strength and quality of the relationships which have built up over the time its been running. Relationships built around shared musical interests as well as those of a more personal nature. That 'fests' are initiated all over the place only adds to the likelihood that 'community' and 'touchy feely' will happen. I just do not agree that is of itself a problem unless it fails to meet with a given agenda - something happily absent hereabouts. Jim's sentiment is that what is happening here is too divorced from Joni Mitchell and matters musical. Perhaps that is a reflection on how society and our commitments and slavery thereto can offer this kind of environment as a form of respite. But I can't speak with any authority on this as it's little more than an impression. But overall as a regular consumer of the joni-digest, I've not been conscious that 'the community involvement in each other's personal lives' is as pervasive as Jim directs here. Perhaps that's because I have become personally involved with some of the list members. For myself I involve myself in these lives only so much as I see fit and am able to service. I don't think I'm unique in that respect. I know that when I first came to the list the fact that there were friendships between some of the posters, evident from what I could read, put me off a little. That says more about my own reactions to experiences elsewhere and little about the health of the list. It was this last that informed my decision to stay and weather some of the nonsense that passes for list posting (the entire period of the election [and after] of the present President of the USA being a particular offense for this reader). This addresses Jim's speculation on what newbie's might do on finding their way here from the JMDL website. That they (the very many?) would either unsub or stick around for the 'perverse enjoyment' it might realise is as I say speculation and can be discarded. Why? Because its being speculation and proposed as supportive to his argument means inevitably that it can equally be used (and discarded) to contradict it on the grounds that it has the same baseless currency. I'll ignore the asperity explicit in the ad nausea and perversity remarks. I think the discussion list is what it is. Obvious perhaps. Those who contribute contribute what they are inclined to and because they are inclined to. That Les Irvin (as owner of this facility) decides on matters relating to its use does not intervene to moderate other than on occasions of gross indiscipline indicates that as owner this is what he sees fit. The responsibility for what appears here is entirely in the gift of those who want to write here. If more want to write on subjects of a musical nature then there is nothing to stop them doing so. I'm completely aware of Jim's point that because of the snapshot nature of transient browsing, what the list offers can mediate against newbies but again the responsibility for that has to rest with the newbie. In the period of american musical history the rest of the world would be seriously misguided on the nature and identity of said musical culture if all they exposed themselves to was Bratney Spoors and her ilk. (Sorry Britney, luv ya really, specially them duds! Got it goin' on girl! etc etc etc) And that's quite enough from me. Les (London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:06:59 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Here we go again (njc) In a message dated 10/12/2003 06:37:31 GMT Standard Time, jll@tampabay.rr.com writes: > I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list > (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are > directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion lists > I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. Oh Boy, you know how to get a few backs up with the opening salvo of a post. Following Les's extremely considered and dignified response (which was more than I felt your post deserved on first reading), I will try to follow his example. If you don't want all that yucky touchy-feely stuff, you have two choices as far as the JMDL is concerned. The first is to sub to the Joni-only list, which I gather works pretty well for the most part, and will certainly filter out most of the stuff you don't like reading. The other choice is to go and find (or even found) another list, 'cos this one is exceedingly unlikely to change in the way that you want it to. Azeem in London NP: Neneh Cherry - Together Now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:18:51 -0000 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: A Response, njc Wally wrote: > ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! what's all this sh*t about? what IS going on? why are we > suddenly suspecting one another? has anyone here been robbed? swindled? > screwed up? are these questions based on warranted assumptions? are we being > utterly stupid this week? > i have been reading and re-reading all the posts re. the LLC and for the > love of god and all his angels i can't understand what this fuss is all > about. it does sound so much like freedom of speech is being used to hurt > when it could and should be put to much better use elsewhere. > are we doing this to one another because of repressed anger? it's starting > to sound vicious and gratuitous. > honestly, i don't get it. I agree with the people who've been trying to calm things down here, Marianne, Paz, etc. No harm was done. Now last night I went to see the Doors. Each song had some accompanying footage on a screen behind the stage. During 1 famous song, which I don't recall the name, the footage was a lot of violence, death, wars, bombs.. and followed by demonstrations, peaceniks being clobbered by the police.... And I had a flash of why I love JMDL and what sets this list apart (not that I'm on any other list, but from what I hear). The reason is simple: people on this list fight for what they believe. I often disagree with the political viewpoints expressed here, but I still respect the authors for having a heart and the conviction to fight for their opinions. The "funds" discussion is simply an example of this passion. Some people got "inflamed" at some comments which were probably miscontrued, as is often the case on this list. But the point is not whether Jim meant this or that or whether the reactions were justified or not. At least there's a passion here about everything, and not only Joni's music. To me that's the spirit which keeps JMDL alive. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:17:31 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? --- Bill Bubb wrote: > Though this isn't one of Joni's original writings, > she does an > excellent job with singing this haunting song. I > miss it. What CD > is it on? > > Is there any guitar tablature anywhere (on the > internet) of this > wonderful tune? > > Thanks. Bill Bill, the song "Cool Water" is from "Chalk mark in a rainstorm." You can find guitar tabs for this and just about any Joni song you could dream of, at http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/index.cfm (in fact there are even three variations to this song posted). If you're new to the list, welcome. And if you're into playing Joni on guitar, you are in for a real treat - there's just so much to choose from, and the transcribers (Sue, Marian, Mark and Howard... and you know there may be more) have done an excellent job on this. And there's also a separate list for guitar people maintained by Sue MacNamara - you can find info and subscribe to it at http://www.jmdl.com/wanderer/ ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:34:36 -0500 From: vince Subject: Here we go again: don't go there Jim Leonard wrote: >I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion list >(as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are >directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion lists >I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. > The JMDL is what it is, no apologies. The JMDL has been around 1997 and evolved into a community. All lists that are going on their 7th year will evolve into some type of community. I am glad the JMDL is what it has become. Music has been and will discussed exhaustively in the JMDL. The richness of the offerings on jonimitchell.com reflect that. The vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness of that site. What would you have us do? Discuss Heijera vs FTR once again according to some manufactured schedule? Have a computer generate when to discuss tabulatures - again? Please. These things happen as they naturally happen. It cannot be manufactured to meet your wish of what you want as opposed to what flows from the people. What gets discussed here is what comes from the people here. My your real complaint with your post is that you have totally discounted all of the music discussion that has taken place in this past year. You are focusing on one type of posting to the total exclusion of the rest, I dare say, the majority of posts. The JMDL in its non njc mode is all about music. The JMDL in its njc mode is about the life and times of Joni Mitchell. As it was in 1997, as it is now, and will be forever, I hope. You tell us what "you people" ought to do. I always wonder when someone tells "you people" what to do. I have a suggestion: please remain a member of the JMDL but instead of telling us what to do, *you* do it, *you* take the responsibility of *your* suggestion and create a new all music only list and invite us to join, keep us posted as to how it is going, we will wish you well, and maybe what *you* do acting as *you people* can become another aspect of the JMDL as jonimitchell.com has become an integral part of the JMDL for the permanent archiving of all of the music discussions that have taken place on the JMDL. And I remind that in part your challenge will be to keep any internet discussion list going with no caring friends community evolving. Vince PS I also differ from your discounting of the people who do not actively post. I think your claimed number of daily repeat posters is a bit low, but also suggest it exceeds the actual norms for these type of lists. A large number of non-daily posters are here because they welcome the JMDL community but are not the type to post daily or don't have the time but want the contact with this community. That membership has held very steady levels for all these years says that what we have is working. There is a point where it becomes too large and impersonal. But please show us, stay a JMDLer but start the list that you think ought to be, and lets see what happens over time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:48:04 -0800 (PST) From: Emily Tedrowe Subject: a small steely dan question NJC hi folks, looking meekly for other discussion options, i offer a steely dan question. so i just got "aja" as a birthday present (finally!). what a fine record. so here goes: what's a "pin shot"? as in the line from "peg" (my favorite song on the disc). can't remember the exact phrases, something like "i like your pin shot / i keep it with your letter" does it refer to a sort of actressy "head shot"? smaller version? i suppose, this being a steely dan song, there must be SOME kind of double entendre somewhere. best, and with good thoughts to all, emily in chicago New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:25:40 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: a small steely dan question NJC ***does it refer to a sort of actressy "head shot"? smaller version? i suppose, this being a steely dan song, there must be SOME kind of double entendre somewhere.*** Lordy, that's a GREAT question Emily...I always wondered it myself. Fact is, I used to always sing "picture" instead of "pin shot", even though I knew they were saying "pin shot" because I didn't know what the heck they meant. In doing a Google search on "pin shot", it appears to be a specifically sexually-related picture, the only relevant hit I got was on an X-rated site entitled "Schoolgirl Pin Shots" - since I'm at work I'd better not check that website out. Surprise, surprise, SD throws in an obscure sexual reference! What would you expect from a band that names themselves after an industrial steam-powered dildo. Bob NP: Marshall Crenshaw, "Fantastic Planet Of Love" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:31:24 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Here we go again (far too long, sorry) > Re : "Jim Leonard" > Re : Subject: Here we go again > > Well, I'm not sure I agree with much of this though as a point of view it > merits response. > > Far from discarding the broad scope of the general music and joni interest > which this forum sponsors among all contributing and lurking parties, I > think what has evolved here with respect to 'community' is testament to the > strength and quality of the relationships which have built up over the time > its been running. I'm chiming in as a long time JMDLer to agree with Les. What this list is is a testament to Joni and her art: people who care, rather than not care. I don't always agree with all of the actions or opinions of my brothers and sisters on this list, but I will defend them to the end. The survival rate of lists which were started with similar interests is about 2 percent. I think we are going on 8 years, now. That says a lot for its founder and members. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:40:11 -0500 From: vince Subject: Re: Here we go again: don't go there vince wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell >> discussion list >> (as the Joni Mitchell website advertises, and to which newbies are >> directed) -- one which would be like other music-oriented discussion >> lists >> I'm on -- instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list. > > The JMDL is what it is, no apologies. The JMDL has been around 1997 > and evolved into a community. All lists that are going on their 7th > year will evolve into some type of community. I am glad the JMDL is > what it has become. > > Music has been and will discussed exhaustively in the JMDL. The > richness of the offerings on jonimitchell.com reflect that. The > vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness > of that site. I misspoke. That last sentences should have read: The richness of the offerings on jmdl.com and jonimitchell.com reflect that. The vastness of the JMDL music discussions have ended up as the fullness of those two sites. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:42:14 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: twisted covers NJC > ***Oh and I have another cover of "Twisted" -- this time its Ann Hampton > Callaway from her album "Signature" (and Bob, I looked at jmdl.com and > its not listed there). It has a nice back-up vocals from the members of > New York Voices and there were cute additional lyrics to it. Did you > com across this one yet? *** > > OK, you redeemed yourself Joseph. :~) > > Thanks as always for aiding the cause...as for your subject, yes there are > some 'twisted' covers in our collection, some of which have nothing to do with > the Gray-Ross tune! > > Bob > One of my favorite performers. Along with her sister Liz, a veteran on Broadway and cabaret. Did you know what made Ann rich and famous? She wrote and sang The Nanny theme! Ann graciously appeared with the Tampa Bay Gay Men's Chorus a few years back to raise money and she couldn't have been nicer. AND she paid her own expenses to come to Tampa. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:07:34 -0500 From: "Loa Nickloy" Subject: oh man Joni going be that close Rats i am not going be able to see her.Thanks for telling though. One of the reason i joined.To see where she is playing and to see if i can get there.as Frankie said,'"That Life".riding high in april shot down in may.oh well,another time. Right. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:17:39 -0500 From: "Loa Nickloy" Subject: njc whats a matter pp Wow,its like being in the INXS chatroom.And they have taken it away till lord when.Yes i love INXS.lol Miss Hutch.Its not the same.But where is all this anger coming from.Stop ok.Your better than this.You welcomed me with open arms.It felt great. I look forward to both, Joni happeinings,Also getting to know all of you.I am beginning to wish had never posted.I am reading all this meanness.stop please.your hurting each other.Why! Is it the season.People seemed out of sorts this year.before you attack.Think of all the nice things you have done for each other. It's a cold lonely world out there. Lets make this a safe haven. We all need that,don't we? loa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) From: Emily Tedrowe Subject: Re: a small steely dan question NJC hi bob! i had a feeling you'd jump at the chance to discuss the dan. and whoa...better not click on that site--you'd probably be swarmed by persistent porn spam forever. i guess "pin shot" does have those sexually suggestive echoes of "pinup," too. and i think of peg in "peg" as someone who's not afraid of smiling NUDE for the camera! thanks for elucidating. i'm really digging AJA, by the way. but the liner notes are so kooky! those guys are serious genius/nutjobs, huh? and i mean that in a good way. courtney and i had a discussion once about drug-fueled music, as in, what we imagine the effects of alcohol/heroin/marijuana had on various albums. just speculating--no assumptions. but i do think of steely dan's work as quintessential cocaine music, as in, a certain late-night obsessive studio quality, control freak stuff. again, i stress this has no basis whatsoever in personal knowledge of the steely dan duo. just something we were kicking around on a long, loooong road trip. - -- emily Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: In doing a Google search on "pin shot", it appears to be a specifically sexually-related picture, the only relevant hit I got was on an X-rated site entitled "Schoolgirl Pin Shots" New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:37:11 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: um, how about njc? (njc) Hi Jim. Your post didn't have the NJC tag, so I assume you're not on the Joni-only list. If you change your subscription to Joni-only, you'll get only Joni content, as it seems that's what you're most interested in. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:35:56 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: A Response (NJC) (for AOL users) Wally says: > people, > ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! what's all this sh*t about? what IS going on? why are we suddenly suspecting one another? has anyone here been robbed? swindled? screwed up? are these questions based on warranted assumptions? are we being utterly stupid this week? i have been reading and re-reading all the posts re. the LLC and for the love of god and all his angels i can't understand what this fuss is all about. it does sound so much like freedom of speech is being used to hurt when it could and should be put to much better use elsewhere. are we doing this to one another because of repressed anger? it's starting to sound vicious and gratuitous. > honestly, i don't get it. > wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:38:54 -0800 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Joni mention in Esquire The January '04 issue of Esquire is titled "Damn good advice from superheroes, supermodels, bigshots and heavyweights". Former model Christie Brinkley: "I couldn't count the hours I spent by my stereo deciphering Joni Mitchell's lyrics and adding them to my life's meaning. When I got the chance to meet her, there were so many things I wanted to say, and I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't talk. She said, "You know how many times people ask me if I'm your Mom?" I tried to speak again, but nothing came out." Well, my opinion of Chritie has raised a notch! Best, Stephen in Vancouver who had a dream last night that Bob Muller and I were hanging out with Joni in British Columbia! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: RE: Here we go again Jim Leonard wrote <> It has been hard reading about the recent difficulties - but it goes with the territory of every group. This may not be any help, but you can't have a large group of people agree on everything and who get along all the time. << How about, instead, if people want to have a "supportive friends' list," they be asked to start a new "supportive friends' list" instead? Those same people could be active here on the JMDL, as well, if the topics are of sufficient interest to them.>> Still a bit hard to police this, don't you think? Where will the line be? Who decides acceptable topics? If I write an email about how much the song 'Trouble Child' meant to me and what was going on in my life at that time, would it be intrusive? Should I discuss the tuning or the way the lines scan or can I say what the song means to me? Would it be mainly Joni content or Anita content? Would it be interesting to others on the list? And I'm thinking what Joni content is there in this email? Please don't think I know "the answer" because I don't. I just think it's difficult when people do things in a group and I/you don't like how they are or what they do or say. <> Me too :~)The thing with Joni's music is that it touches us in our deepest places and that means that many of the people who like her music are likely to be emotional people. Much of Joni's music is highly personal and a group of people who come together because of her music are likely (thought not exclusively) to reflect this - and maybe this will mean that they too will speak personally. Not only that, the people involved with this list do more than discuss Joni - they also put on fantastic events that lead to further involvement in that people meet up and exchange money, art, music, drink (a lot :~) etc. which further changes the parameters of the group. The good thing about email is that you don't have to read everything, so could you skip the touchy-feely ones you don't like and you don't have to send any money if you don't want to. I'm not particularly keen on the top Joni 10 things that come along every now and again but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't do it just because it's not relevant to me. Personally, I am interested in how people have come to find Joni, what has touched them about her music and what use they have made of many of her ideas in their lives. It means a lot to me that people on this list (some of whom I have been blessed to meet)want to try and reach out to others in need - but it doesn't mean you or anyone else has to feel that way or share my perspective. I feel much of Joni's music is about contacting and connecting with others in their darkness and this is what some folk have recently been doing here on this site. I like groups that are inclusive and battle away when the going gets rough, like it has been. It makes it all very real. We are all capable of so much good and so much bad - of getting it so wrong and getting it so right. I was listening to DJWD last night and was struck by Jericho and the lines: " Anyone will tell you Just how hard it is to make and keep a friend Maybe they'll short sell you Or maybe it's you Judas,in the end." Being a member of any group involves taking a risk as we all try to find what's okay to do and what it isn't. At some point, we may each feel betrayed and then go on to be the betrayer.It's human. There have been difficult feelings around recently and it has been hard. I hope everyone will hold fast through the current storm. Oh well, I suppose that last bit where I quote Joni means that this email has Joni content. Perhaps I can risk sending it - but how to mark it is something else! With love and good intention Anita ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:57:25 -0500 From: Bob Shemkovitz Subject: Re: Here we go again on 12/10/03, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wish that you people would decide to have a Joni Mitchell discussion > list... instead of a "Caring Friends Network" list... Jim, I don't even know how to begin to respond to your post. Let me get this straight - you're "uncomfortable" because some people have found friendships here and actually care about each other? Well, let's put a stop to that nonsense right away! You say we are likely missing music content in our discussion "because of this touchy-feely close-knit group thing." How exactly do close relationships among the listers prevent anyone or everyone from posting whatever music content they wish to share? In my case, the only thing that prevents me from posting more often is the fact that I currently only have email at work, and don't always have sufficient time here to post as often as I'd like. Yet in spite of my limited involvement, I've found many people who have very happily shared Joni music and videos with me, a total stranger, simply because we share a deep appreciation for this wonderful artist - virtually all of whose work, by the way, is inspired by her own touchy-feely, close-knit sense of community with the rest of humanity. May I suggest that, instead of railing against the "environment" of a really wonderful community of Joni fans, you simply begin another discussion list; one where members can discuss chord changes and rhyme schemes and orchestrations, without getting bogged down in the kinds of relationships and feelings that the songs were intended to express and foster. And I don't mean to denigrate those kinds of discussions - I enjoy them too - just pointing out that Joni's gift to the world encompasses a lot more than alternate tunings. As for the "potential powder keg about to blow," hey, if it's gonna blow, let it blow. I'm going to send a check anyway. I've never met the person I'm sending it to, nor the person who solicited it, but I know, with absolute certainty, that it's going to be used for its intended purpose. And that's exactly the kind of group that I was looking for when I first joined, even if I didn't know it at the time! Jim, I think most people here have found the kind of community they were looking for. Those who haven't should either adjust their expectations to coincide with what they've found here, or keep looking. Whichever way you choose to go, I wish you luck. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: just stop (njc) I'll put this bluntly. For everyone who is just so damn fascinated with accounting, go take a class if you're that interested. Otherwise, shut up. If I'd seen all this sh*t going on when this comunity did rally for me, it would have broken my heart. You were my lifeline, more than you could know. Lifelong friends abandoned me, too afraid to watch me die. But do you know who went out of her way to bring me whatever I needed, whenever I needed it? Ashara. And can you guess who else has been there every step of my recovery? Mags. These two amazing women of heart and mind are as much of the reason I'm healthy today as any medication. They are true life savers. Although I haven't been terribly close to MG, I know for a fact that she too has that kind of heart. Hoping for the miracle that's due her... with deep sorrow, Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:04:52 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Miles of Aisles How about a new thread? Yes we've done this, but here's the thing, I recently met a new friend, she lives in Austin and is a new Joni fan - - but only has a couple of her albums. She bought and listened to Miles of Aisles this week for the first time and loves it!! She is thinking of joining us here, so I thought this: name or quote your favorite line, moment, song etc. from Miles of Ailes or why you like or dislike it... "dial in the number who's bound to love ya..." "drink up now it's gettin on time to close..." "and me, the chirp!!" Anyone else? Donna, no longer the only Joni fan in Texas!! This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:16:37 EST From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: in this holiday season Friends, In this holiday season and in ALL of life's season's i wish you joy, love and lots and lots of peace. pax noel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:33:50 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:31:58 -0600 >To: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) >From: Steve Polifka >Subject: RE: How I came upon Joni's Music >In-Reply-To: > >At 03:10 PM 12/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >> >>Personally, I am interested in how people have come to find Joni, what has >>touched them about her music and what use they have made of many of her >>ideas in their lives. \>With love and good intention >>Anita >> > >Hi Anita! > Oh, I thought I'd share how I came into Joni with you. >I first heard Joni's Chelsea Morning and BYT on the radio- I loved her voice, even at 14. The latter, which was being played on the radio at the time, was impossible to find in the small town I lived in. So I went to the hardware store (which sold records at the time) to get BYT. Yea, I got it all right. >There on my stereo was The Neighborhood singing it with their melody scalping harmonies! Oh, was I disappointed it wasn't the Joni I heard on the radio. They never played the Nieghborhood's version. > Then in high school, as a Junior, my friend Kim would write me notes and lyrics from Joni's songs, and I loved it. But it took me another year to actually get my first Joni album: Court and Spark. > Oh My God! Help Me was on the radio- and I still think her voice is just heaven on that song-I used to lay on the floor with my head between my sister's stereo to listen to that album play over and over. I couldn't get enough. > Before then, I had been listening to such bands as Alice Cooper, and Uriah Heep, the Doors, Stones, Cat Stevens and the Mamas and the Papas. Well after Joni, I couldn't go back- at least to the rock bands- as a steady diet. >My tastes had changed. Instead I looked for music that satisfied my intelect as well as being melodic. > So every month after Miles of Aisles came out, I went backwards and bought her catalog- FTR, Blue, Ladies of the Canyon, etc., giving myself a month to digest each of them in turn, until I had 7 Mitchell albums on rotation with >some of my others. > And I bought all her music books. I learned dozens of her songs- > Then the wait was on. When was her next golden egg to appear? I'd watch all the music rags with a vengeance, and cut out any clippings I could find. Scouring the music stores, I could usually talk them out of a poster or two, >if they had one. My biggest treasure is my Hejira poster, which was a little beat up and stappled on a music store wall, with some girl there so willing to save it for me because I "must be a big fan of hers..." > And I still am. Jeff always has a few Joni in his car, so anytime anywhere, I can listen to her indescribably delicious music... >Hugs to you, >Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:14:18 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni mention in Esquire ***Stephen in Vancouver who had a dream last night that Bob Muller and I were hanging out with Joni in British Columbia!*** That would be pretty cool - a non-smoker, an ex-smoker, and a chain-smoker! I'm sure that Joni would thoroughly enjoy basking in such virility! Bob NP: Jim Croce, "Ball of Kerrymuir" 1/15/73 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:08:51 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Cool Water - What CD Is That On? Hi Bill, and if you're newly joined up, welcome! Catherine already gave you most of the dirt you asked for, I just wanted to expand a bit. "Cool Water" is one of the high spots for me on what is imo one of Joni's weaker efforts. Of the celebrity duets on this record, it's far & away the most effective, as Willie Nelson's voice is a nice contrast to hers and since he evokes desert imagery with his dusty and sun-weathered appearance and dry voice. And it doesn't get talked about much, but she lyrically reinterprets the Bob Nolan/Sons Of The Pioneers song significantly. The way I see it, the original is basically about 2 guys wandering the desert, in search of water and given instead a mirage. In Joni's version, the two wanderers are not necessarily looking ONLY for any water, they are in search of untainted water. Her rendition has more to do with ecology I think. Original lyric: "Keep a-movin' Dan, don't you listen to him, Dan He's a devil not a man And he spreads the burning sand with water" Joni's lyric: "Keep on movin' Dan Some devils had a plan Buried poison in the sand Don't drink it man It's in the water Cool clear water" So where the original warns of believing the mirage (the devil), Joni's warns of drinking the poisoned water. What's also interesting is that given this scenario, she doesn't alter the chorus much but because of the different framework she's established with the verse, the chorus' MEANING changes. The original: "Dan can you see that big green tree Where the water's running free And it's waiting there for you & me" alludes to a mirage, while Joni's: "In my mind I see A big green tree And a river flowin' free Waiting up ahead for you and me" to me alludes to not a mirage but rather an internal future vision of a true oasis with pure unpolluted water and greenery. Very effective I think. Bob NP: David Crosby, "Song With No Words (Tree With No Leaves)" PS: I couldn't help noticing your address...I was a stamp collector for most of my youth, then at some point I got my first kiss (a next door neighbor named Janey) and soon lost interest in my stamp collection! :~) (My favorite stamps to collect were Russia and Burundi) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #612 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)