From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #602 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, December 4 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 602 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Socialism njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc ["kakki" ] Re: Socialism njc ["kakki" ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc ["kakki" ] re: Socialism (njc) [rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com] hi from New joni fan ["sally CLAY" ] Re: Socialism (njc) [tantra-apso ] Re: hi from New joni fan [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] resurfacing (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Fw: Socialism njc (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Re: hi from New joni fan [Chris Marshall ] Re: Socialsim njc ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: hi from New joni fan ["Lori Fye" ] Covers #47 [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: It's dusty gentry Saturday last NJC ["Donna Binkley" ] socialism (njc) ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Colin's recovery NJC ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc ["ron" ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] futility (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Socialism njc [dsk ] Re: futility (njc) [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Socialism (again) njc [dsk ] Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc - now very long & religious - be warned!!! :-) ["ron" ] Vince, Joni, Woodstock get the nod [FMYFL@aol.com] Thank you Lori (NJC) ["Sherelle Smith" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:05:17 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Socialism njc However if you look at the list of what defines facism, our current administration fits pretty snugly into that definition... Kakki >Yes. The Nazis were the right wing of socialism and Marxism was the left wing. The Nazis and the Russian communists collaborated for awhile as allies and then fell out. Incredibly, many people who have not really studied history in depth analogize "right wing" Nazi fascism " with "right wing" Republicans in the U.S. "They are both 'right wing' so that means they are both fascist." Wrong. Republicans are not socialist and are not the right wing of the socialist party in the U.S. (obviously).< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:54:25 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc Vince wrote: "No, that applied to all of the community - the entire community in Jerusalem in the time period following Pentecost. The central sacrament of worship, communion, remains the gathering of the family around the table to be fed. The early practice of the churchj in Jerusalem was communism" Wow, so why did Jesus also say to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's? (i.e. pay your taxes). If everyone was living under communism, and sharing all they had with each other, where did they have the currency to pay taxes, too? "oh??????????? whether the time of the kings in the theocracy or later in the 8th century and following prophets, who were they then speaking to? the air? I suppose the kings imprisoning of Isaiah, jeremiah, seeking Elijah's death, barring others from the worship centers and temple,. was because the prophets were not speaking to government to mandate it? Au contra ire --- read Amos - read Micah - damn socialists saying that God hates the worship of the rich because the poor are abused by the powers that control with bribes to favor the rich and dispossess the poor in the courts so thus because there is hunger, the alien is not welcome, and the poor can get no justice, no equity, the ivory palaces of the rich and powerful will be torn down - hey, I don't make this stuff up, it is the Bible ----" OK, so does that mean you do believe in separation of church and state in the U.S. or you do not? It sounds like you believe the state should follow Christian biblical teachings. The Bible does say that. It also says give of your best to those who have not. Well gee aren't most people in "evil capitalist" countries already paying out the majority of their earnings in taxes (redistributing) that are supposed to help take care of the poor and people in need? So why do some scream for "more more more" and hold themselves out as better humanitarians that others when it sure seems like most are already certainly paying their due. "Hey - Jesus said it.. Go yell at him, for wanting to redistribute from those who ahd to those in need." It's already in the system and being done. I'd just like for people to stop screaming at me and others who contribute hugely and yet it's never quite enough for some. Isn't that just another aspect of human nature? For some the more you give, the more it's expected of you and it's never enough and the recepient hates you for it in the end anyway. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:17:11 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Socialism njc Kate wrote: > However if you look at the list of what defines facism, our current > administration fits pretty snugly into that definition... Yes, I hear that expressed often by those who just are consumed with hating Bush. (whether you personally hate him or not, I do not know, but in general I hear this kind of rhetoric coming from those who truly are filled with daily hate of him). I find it a very offensive and baffling opinion but I've come to assume it's meant to be taken that way by the opposition and aimed at people like me who do not hate him. When the brownshirts come down my street rounding everyone up and putting us all under totalitarian martial law and into detention camps and executing all who dissent, maybe then I'll agree with such an opinion. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 01:50:56 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc Hi Colin, "the UK is ocnsidered a highly taxed country but we certainly don't pay the 'majority' of our money in taxes." Even when you add up all the taxes you pay? It's more than 50% isn't it? Didn't we have this discussion here before and we both came up with a roughly 60% + of money paid out in all taxes? I can see where some people who have already inherited other money or property or have other income may not mind paying that much because it doesn't impact them directly, but for others who have none of those supplemental sources of investment or income, it seems pretty steep. Kakki - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:52:25 -0800 From: rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com Subject: re: Socialism (njc) Howdy y'all, I'm VERY wary about stepping into this minefield. My buddy Steve Dulson warned against initiating or participating in political or religious discussions, and....well, how often does our rhetoric change somebody else's point of view? But I want to raise a couple of points. Years ago I listened to a lecture by Doris Lessing, who suggested that we abandon partisanship and make up our minds issue by issue. Ms. Lessing also championed democracy, defending it as a relatively young concept (which it is). Perhaps Lessing was being naive: after all, we all have to vote for somebody. But at least she asks that we sort out our priorities. I have sorted out my priorities, and I vote Green. I abhor suppression of free speech, whether it comes from the extreme right or the extreme left. Just to think of the atrocities committed by Stalin makes me puke. But watching Americans allow George W. Bush and his minions to legislate away the freedoms that your forefathers (let's face it, most JMDLers are American) fought to the death for makes me stand back in wonder. Any right-winger who questions the right of Noam Chomsky or Lewis Lapham to criticize the establishment is not worth noticing. The American way allows everybody a say, period. Likewise, every American left-winger must allow William F. Buckley his forum as well. I will go on record as saying this: I hate democracy. It allows the ignorant and the uninformed (the lazy) to vote or (worse yet?) to not vote. Self-interest becomes the talisman. Participation in the democratic process should require some sense of responsibility??? As a Green Party voter, I have no optimism whatsoever for any oxygen-breathing species. It is almost certainly too late to turn things around, and thanks to leaders like Reagan, Clinton, Thatcher, and both Bushes, all of whom chose to ignore all the evidence, we are literally doomed. Discussion of any other topic strikes me as frivolous, no matter how interesting. Let's have a Jonifest in a few years when we're all gasping for oxygen and recoiling from the contaminated water. So I guess that's what I think about this myopic discussion of left wing/right wing; of sacred/secular. I love you Kakki and I love you Vince. Please don't squabble about Jesus: He loves us all. There is only one issue currently confronting us that is of any importance, and that is the protection of our planet. Anyone who doesn't immediately agree with this statement is literally beyond redemption. Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:44:01 -0000 From: "sally CLAY" Subject: hi from New joni fan Hi pepes. Have finally plucked up the courage to post after having joined about a week ago. I performed at Joni's UK birthday bash on 08 November and was so thrilled by all the material I heard there that I had to, just had to become a member of the JMDL. since then I've been listening to blue and a few songs from clouds. her early stuff is so touching because of her pure, clear voice which somehow manages to possess an unmistakeable resonance. I'm so jealous lol. can anyone recommend some of her later stuff as I know very little about it, having only been initiated into the Joni lovers' cult since Nov. I'd be very very grateful for some education. Merry Xmas 2 u all. Love Sally. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:33:21 +0000 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Socialism (njc) rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com wrote: > There is only one issue currently confronting us that is of any importance, and that is the protection of our planet. > yes. I also think that most everything else will get sorted out as a result too. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:59:55 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: hi from New joni fan Greetings to you Sally, and welcome to the JMDL! I'm looking forward to hearing the recording of the UK concert which hopefully will make it to me soon. Congrats for being a part of that celebration. As for furthering your Joni education, I'm not sure what you mean by "later stuff" (some consider anything after Court & Spark to be later stuff...) but if you like the starker acoustic side of Joni you could go with Turbulent Indigo. But don't expect that same crystalline voice you hear on Blue & Clouds. Her voice is beautiful on that record, but for obvious reasons it has a more mature tone. And if you don't have Hejira, that one may be worth a listen as well. ;~) Love back to you, Bob NP: Steely Dan, "Lunch With Gina" (one of the year's disappointments for me) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 06:00:20 -0800 (PST) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: resurfacing (njc) I've been swamped with my return to work. (All I can say about work is, I've tried it and I STILL don't like it LOL!) and have barely even been lurking until the past week... My heartfelt prayers go out to MG. What horrifying news... Jamie Z - someone else posted this, but I'll concur (having just taken a course for my real estate license...) In the U.S. if you have a lease, you can't be evicted because the property changes hands. The lease is still in effect. All the best to you. Colin, you're in my prayers! I miss you all. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:12:28 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Socialism njc (for AOL users) Wally says: well, nazi comes from "nationalsozialist", believe it or not. wally, who always votes one of the socialist parties in argentina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:59:04 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: hi from New joni fan Sally, Glad you made it along to the JMDL! As Martin, Strings and I may have said back in Bedford, it's a fun place to be. I'll second Bob's recommendation and suggest that "Hejira" is well worth checking out. Quite dissimilar to the early stuff, but songs so deep you can wallow in them. Cheers, - --Chris Marshall chrisAThatstand.org (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:10:13 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Socialsim njc > National Socialism, commonly called Nazism, German political movement > initiated in 1920 with the organization of the National Socialist > German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche > Arbeiterpartei, or NSDAP), also called the Nazi Party. The movement > culminated in the establishment of the Third Reich, the totalitarian > German state led by the dictator Adolf Hitler from 1933 to 1945. That may have been the origins and the name of the party (I did know that by the way, Wallushka) but I don't believe socialism was the system adopted by the Nazi regime. My understanding is that Hitler hated communism and perhaps more accurately, communists. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:40:08 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc Colin wrote: > It baffles me that a country who thinks of itse;f as Xtian and > civilised still has the death penalty. Good point, Colin, although 12 U.S. states do not have the death penalty, and at least 7 of the 38 states that do have the death penalty have enacted a moratorium on it pending various investigations into how fairly it's applied, etc. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:57:39 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: hi from New joni fan Hi Sally! Welcome to the JMDL -- glad to have you here! I agree with Hejira as the perfect "later" Joni album, but then it's my favorite album of all time by anyone, so ... My additional pick would be Night Ride Home. I have a friend who picked on me for my love of Joni for YEARS, until she was managing a record store and got NRH as a promo. It floored her, and she's been a Joni fan ever since. Lori P.S. - If you're receiving all posts (as opposed getting only Joni- related posts), please don't let the current political discussion put you off. Or, as Joni sang in "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey" (from Mingus), "It comes and goes" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:45:44 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Covers #47 Don't forget to tender a guess for a free copy of Covers #47...you never can tell, I might just throw in a surprise! Just pick a song on a Joni record and the record it's on, like: I Had A King - Song To a Seagull Nothing to it...even someone with a South Carolina public education can figure it out! I had originally said that I would entertain guesses through Friday night, but I forgot that I'm heading to Myrtle Beach Friday and gone until Sunday, so I'll entertain picks through Midnight Sunday and announce a winner Monday. Bob NP: Chris Smither, live at The Handlebar 9-Aug-03 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:50:00 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: It's dusty gentry Saturday last NJC Great story Vince, thanks for sharing it. i love Bobby Gentry, and who could forget "Those Boots were Made For Walkin". db >>> vince 12/3/2003 9:11:23 PM >>> Mark, partner of Travis the Thanksgiving chef, wrote: >You need no reason or justification to listen to Dusty, imo. She was >sublime. > > > Last Saturday NPR was playing what it calls roots music and after some bluesy number they played "Son of a Preacher Man." I was singing along, ever mindful that it was precisely because some nice young girl once met the sweet talking son of a preacher man that resulted in my having a grandson.... and I kept thinking, my memory is off on Dusty's arrangement. But it turned out to be Bobby Gentry's version I was singing along with - now there is a name from the past and it seems no one knows where she is now - - she has chosen to be a recluse. And on my shelf is an album Jerry gave me: Dusty Loves Vince. Jerry doesn't know that every time I hear the lyric "and the only boy who could ever reach me was the son of a preacher man" my mind flashes to the unpleasant (to me) concept of my 18 year old son and his 15 year old date - not the proudest moment in parenting history but at that point he had been with his mother for 6 years since I was a bad influence on him while his mother (then on marriage 4 and live ins too numerous to count) was a good influence. What with all the sex in the house with my ex-wife's couplings, I am sure my son wanted to have something going on too. But again, my precious grandson comes from all this so what does one say. And he never sees or hears from nor gets a call from his father (by father's inaction, twice a year sees my ex wife his grandmother (now several couplings more and husband no. 6), and the kid spends so much time with me by his choice - I love him so much, he is the joy of my life - 8 year old sweety wrote a note "I love you" and placed it in my office so I would find it while working a few days later - these moments are so good - since I am still a preacher man, will this make my grandson also the son of a preacher man? Vince the poppa This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:51:22 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: hi from New joni fan Welcome Sally! Glad to have you aboard, hope you can make it to the American Jonifest next year! Donna from Texas >>> "sally CLAY" 12/4/2003 6:44:01 AM >>> Hi pepes. Have finally plucked up the courage to post after having joined about a week ago. I performed at Joni's UK birthday bash on 08 November and was so thrilled by all the material I heard there that I had to, just had to become a member of the JMDL. since then I've been listening to blue and a few songs from clouds. her early stuff is so touching because of her pure, clear voice which somehow manages to possess an unmistakeable resonance. I'm so jealous lol. can anyone recommend some of her later stuff as I know very little about it, having only been initiated into the Joni lovers' cult since Nov. I'd be very very grateful for some education. Merry Xmas 2 u all. Love Sally. This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:47:20 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: socialism (njc) >Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:52:37 -0800 >From: "Lori Fye" >Subject: Re: Socialsim njc >>I'm not sure what socialists quite believe - something like everyone >>should have the same money and goods as everyone else, regardless of >>effort or merit so everything is fair. >Karl Marx's theory was, "From each according to his ability, to each >according to his need." >It's not really as simple as that, but there's a balance that can be >achieved if people want the system to work. >But as Kate pointed out, most humans long for power/control, and they can >be damn greedy besides. So it can be difficult to sustain a socialist >society for long. >On the other hand, here's a place that's been around for a good long while >now, and they seem to be doing just fine: http://www.eastwind.org/ >Lori I think I believe in socialized medicine. . . I mean, everybody has a right to medical care. . . . How can we allow anyone to suffer if we can help them? but it's true, someone's got to pay for it. . I am still trying to understand socialism. . . and I would have to say that based on what I know about socialism. . it sounds good in theory . . and there are dfinitely parts of it I want ot keep, ie, "each acording to her/ his ability, each according to her need. . ." B U T, I Have witnessed a lot of people who are plain lazy in the world. . .unmotivated. . many people who expect others to do things for them that they can do for themselves. . I mean, I have seen this a lot. . . and yes, this is the time and place where we need welfare reform. . and the time when I think socialism won't work. . . I have been thought of as idealistic. . . but when it comes down to getting the work done. . I have no tolerance for cabable people who do not try. lazy people can sit in a ditch if they are mentally ill that is one thing. . . but if they are plain lazy. . . that is another. I'm to the left of most of you (I think) and have zero tolerance for the ones who do not put forth effort. Marianne (I am serious here but I am making myself laugh) _________________________________________________________________ Our best dial-up offer is back. Get MSN Dial-up Internet Service for 6 months @ $9.95/month now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:47:47 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Colin's recovery NJC Smiling and nodding, Cynthia....smiling and nodding! (smile) Sherelle >From: "Cynthia Vickery" >To: "Sherelle Smith" >CC: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Colin's recovery NJC >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:42:13 -0600 > > >you know, sherelle, in the grand scheme of things, a diet mtn dew >(or a 6-pack of the same, per day, more likely!) really isn't >that big a deal.... >and i'm adjusting nicely - the water i've replaced the sodas with >(and this is the propoganda i've been telling myself, so just >smile and nod now) will help me lose weight so that i'll be just >*too* sexy and will make my skin absolutely radiant and will save >me god-only-knows how much money over the course of a year and, >thanks to this lifestyle change, now i can even give my jmdl >friends a related stock tip!! now would be the time to buy >aspirin stock, because i've been having some *serious* >withdrawal headaches. i think the only way to make them go away >is for you to promise *right now* that you'll come to fest next >year, sherelle, and sing for me. ;o) >thanks for understanding! > >and colin - since this is your thread, let me take a minute to >thank you for your support, too. > >you guys ROCK! > >cindy > >_________________________________ > ><diabetic, I was told that pasta is very bad for me because it >takes longer >to break down in the system than regular sugars thereby keeping >your blood sugar level higher longer. I was a very avid fan of >Michellina's shrimp >pasta frozen entrees and had seven in my freezer at the time I >found out. I just looked at them and cried. It really does hurt >but it's hard to explain why. Thanks so much for sharing this! I >can definitely relate! > >Sherelle>> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:30:27 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc hi >>>>vince wrote about the socialism in early jerusalem but doesnt the bible also talk about "if a man wil not work he shal not eat" & "if a man does not take care of his family he is worse than an infidel and has denied the faith" and how about "living by the sweat of his brow" & "work hard and enjoy the fruits of his labour" and, umm - doesnt denounce slavery anywhere that i can remember lol!!!! & seems to talk a whole lot about doing charity stuff. and the parable about the three servants. (and you know there may be more!!!!) the way it all seems to add up to me is exactly what everybody here seems to be saying tho perhaps without quite getting to it - - responsible capitalism with a sense of social responsibility toward those less fortunate than oneself - what could be simpler!!! even slavery is probably better than starving if you are well treated (now hows that for stirring up the pot!!!!!!) ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:37:10 -0500 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc hi from Ron...... this is kind of a Ron statement/Vince reponse thing - Ia ma t work and cannot format well >>>>vince wrote about the socialism in early jerusalem but doesnt the bible also talk about "if a man wil not work he shal not eat" not that I recall at all & "if a man does not take care of his family he is worse than an infidel and has denied the faith" there is no where in the Bible that the word "infidel" is used (not a Biblical construct) nor is the phrase "denied the faith" used anywhere that I can recall I would be curious as to the sources of those nonBiblical quotes and how about "living by the sweat of his brow" & "work hard and enjoy the fruits of his labour" my recollection is those phrases are used more as commentary than commandment - although the book of Ecclesiastes tells us to enjoy our lives for the work that we have to do, when something good comes along, celebrate, because too much of life is work and, umm - doesnt denounce slavery anywhere that i can remember lol!!!! to its detriment, no, and that shows a clear cultural limitation, but does provide that it never be permanent where it does speak of what we might term "indentured service" more than slavery & seems to talk a whole lot about doing charity stuff. and the parable about the three servants. (and you know there may be more!!!!) which 3 servants, which parable? And in the Bible it is more than charity, it is the process of giving of what one has to the help of others as a part of life intrisic to life, not as an "act" one does on the now and again Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:40:33 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: It's thursday NJC hi garret >>>> Steve Earle is a name that i've always come across but just never been exposed to, as far as i know. I get the impression that his is music worth listening to. Can you recommend any decent starting points then? im no expert on steve - i only have "el corazon" "guitar town" (bought very recently so i havent really formed an opinion yet) & a live show - called heh, heh, "christmastime in washington" he is somewhat of a maverick from what i can see - hes all over the place stylistically, a great songwriter, with great lyrics, and a gritty, realistic sincerity to his music that is just oh so strong & rare. he certainly comes across as being absolutely straight & down the line with no bullshit tolerated :-) yeah - his music is definitely worth getting into!!! he's also a favourite of emmylou harris's - which says a whole lot. & since i was intro'd by "el corazon" & it seemed to work for me - thats what id recomend. ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:03:29 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: futility (njc) yes. money, riches, the meaning of commerce, and all the ideas and ideologies derived from the use and possession of wealth will lose their meaning in about 15 years. for about a decade afterwards the dominating groups will be the ones that have or can steal fresh water, food and means to protect their elites from the effects of living in earth weather. after that, that is, in about 40 years, we will cease to exist as a species and the planet will go on spinning, sustaining new habitats and surviving beings. unless the forces of harmonic concordance prevail, most of us will perish, and so will our thoughts and futility. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com > Enviado el: Jueves, 04 de Diciembre de 2003 08:52 a.m. > Para: JMDL > Asunto: re: Socialism (njc) > > > I love you Kakki and I love you Vince. Please don't squabble > about Jesus: He loves us all. There is only one issue currently > confronting us that is of any importance, and that is the > protection of our planet. Anyone who doesn't immediately agree > with this statement is literally beyond redemption. > > Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:24:35 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Socialism njc kakki wrote: > > ... The Nazis were the right wing of socialism and Marxism was the left > wing. ... Kakki, PLEASE lose your idea that just because "socialist" is included in the name of the party Hitler hijacked that it in any way resembled Socialism, which was and is toward the left on the traditional political spectrum. The Nazi party was a perversion in every way. Hitler hated Socialists, and Communists, and basically anyone who got in the way of his tyrannical plans. If any word in his party's name makes any sense, it's the National part, since he whipped up nationalistic fervor and also took over (nationalized) any industry he wanted, and did both to serve his own ends. His manipulative rhetoric was designed to appeal to workers, but he had absolutely no genuine interest in workers' rights, which are a major concern of Socialists. Here's a partial description of socialism: "In a socialist society the means of production are owned by the workers rather than by a rich minority of capitalists or functionaries. Such a system of ownership is both collective and individual in nature." Copied from http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dmcm/ where there's plenty more info about socialism. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:26:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: futility (njc) And I'm willing to bet that about half of those beings will record "Both Sides Now"! Bob, enjoying this cheery thread NP: Elvis C, "You Tripped At Every Step" PS: I just logged my 100th BYT - damn, that's a lot of parking lots! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:30:37 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Socialism (again) njc kakki wrote in answer to Mark's questions: > > > Nazi Germany? Socialist? > > Mark - here is an exerpt and link from Encarta online > > http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560927/National_Socialist.html > > National Socialism, commonly called Nazism, German political movement > initiated in 1920 with the organization of the National Socialist German > Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or NSDAP), > also called the Nazi Party. The movement culminated in the establishment of > the Third Reich, the totalitarian German state led by the dictator Adolf > Hitler from 1933 to 1945. Excellent article, Kakki, but you didn't read/quote far enough. Here's more: The National Socialist party originated in the German Workers' party, formed in Munich in 1919. At the time Hitler joined it in 1919, the German Workers' party had a nominal membership of about 25, only 6 of whom were active in its discussions and lecture activities. Shortly after joining, Hitler became a leader of the group. At the first mass meeting of the German Workers' party, held in Munich on February 24, 1920, Hitler read the party programme, which he had partly written; this consisted of 25 points comprising a mixture of exaggerated nationalistic demands, corruptions of socialist ideas, and racist and anti-Semitic doctrines. As the essential conditions for the realization of its aims, the party declared in point 25: "For modern society, a colossus with feet of clay, we shall create an unprecedented centralization which will unite all powers in the hands of the government. We shall create a hierarchical constitution, which will mechanically govern all movements of individuals." Please note the phrase "corruptions of socialist ideas". Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:04:57 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Socialism (is God's way) njc - now very long & religious - be warned!!! :-) hi well, vince i was hoping youd know the references so i wouldnt have to "work" to look them up :-) anyhow it seems like my own personal paraphrasing musta thrown you off - here goes - all quotes from the amplified bible: >>>>> but doesnt the bible also talk about "if a man wil not work >>>>>> he shal not eat" > not that I recall at all 2 thessalonians 3:10-12 for while we were yet with you we gave you this rule and charge: if any one will not work, neither let him eat. indeed, we hear that some among you are disorderly - that they are passing their lives in idleness, neglectful of duty - being busy with other people's affairs, instead of their own and doing no work. now we charge and exhort such [as ministers in him exhorting those] in the lord jesus christ, the messiah, that they work in quietness and earn their own food and other necessities" > & "if a man does not take care of his family he is worse > than an infidel and > has denied the faith" > > there is no where in the Bible that the word "infidel" is > used (not a Biblical construct) nor is the phrase "denied > the faith" used anywhere that I can recall > > I would be curious as to the sources of those nonBiblical > quotes 1 timothy 5:8 "if anyone fails to provide for his own relatives, and especially for those of his own family, he has disowned the faith [by failing to accompany it with fruits], and is worse than an unbeliever [who performs his obligation in these matters] > and how about "living by the sweat of > his brow" & > "work hard and enjoy the fruits of his labour" > > my recollection is those phrases are used more as > commentary than commandment - although the book of > Ecclesiastes tells us to enjoy our lives for the work that > we have to do, when something good comes along, celebrate, > because too much of life is work 1 thessalonians 4:11-12 "to make it your ambition and definitely endeavour to live quietly and peacefully, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we charged you: so that you may bear yourselves becomingly, be correct, and honourable, and command the respect of the outside world, being (self supporting) depending on nobody, and having need of nothing. > and, umm - > doesnt denounce > slavery anywhere that i can remember lol!!!! > > to its detriment, no, and that shows a clear cultural > limitation, but does provide that it never be permanent > where it does speak of what we might term "indentured > service" more than slavery im just using an on line concordance since i cant find my own one (many, many years since i dragged it out) & they dont seem to have much on slaves. i do however think that what you say makes sense - it always seemed to be for a specified period. and if memory serves me right there seemed to be quite a few "masters - treat your servants/slaves well" type passages. > > & seems to > talk a whole lot > about doing charity stuff. and the parable about the three > servants. (and > you know there may be more!!!!) > > which 3 servants, which parable? the one about the master going away, and giving some money to 3 servants. the one who worked hard & made more money was praised, the one who stashed it in the ground got into trouble. now im well aware that the parable is using the money/work thing to illustrate a point - but in order for a parable to work, it has to be relevant on the literal level as well as the figurative. otherwise whats the point :-) And in the Bible it is > more than charity, it is the process of giving of what one > has to the help of others as a part of life intrisic to > life, not as an "act" one does on the now and again yeah - thats right. but that doesnt always mean going off & doing a mother theresa (& i mean that most respectfully) - sometimes it means running a business & giving lots of money where its needed. and vince - what about my "responsible capitalism with a sense of social re sponsibility" dang, i was really, really proud of that phrase - still am as a matter of fact!!!!! :-) regards ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:19:32 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Socialism. Now fascism njc very long! Kate (me) said: > However if you look at the list of what defines fascism, our current administration fits pretty snugly into that definition...< Kakki > Yes, I hear that expressed often by those who just are consumed with hating Bush. (whether you personally hate him or not, I do not know, but in general I hear this kind of rhetoric coming from those who truly are filled with daily hate of him).< No I don't hate him, nor do I consider myself consumed by his administration (its silly to just blame bush, its a group effort)... I do have strong opinions however, & try to stay current on what the administration is doing (or in many cases not doing) & for the most part I am in opposition to the direction this administration is taking our country in so many ways... I do not consider my opposition or opinions 'rhetoric'... That is an easy word to throw out onto someone else's opinion which just sort of ends the conversation (with a judgment) imo... (although one meaning of the word rhetoric is actually positive, these days it is used differently) >I find it a very offensive and baffling opinion but I've come to assume it's meant to be taken that way by the opposition and aimed at people like me who do not hate him.< Sorry if you took offense, but it is my honest opinion... Even my once upon a time centrist husband (who still considers himself as such) also uses the word fascism to describe what he sees occurring in our country... I am not sure how you make the leap to taking such an opinion personally however. I can assure you my opinion has nothing to do with you at all! It is not aimed at you! You are not in the administration! Nor is it aimed at people who voted for this administration as they aren't responsible for what is happening now! I don't know how to express myself any clearer than that... >When the brownshirts come down my street rounding everyone up and putting us all under totalitarian martial law and into detention camps and executing all who dissent, maybe then I'll agree with such an opinion.< The above statement is not really the definition of fascism (see my original sentence above) but could be considered an extreme result of fascism...however it does bring to mind this well known quotation: "In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up." Martin Niemvller Here is a current version written by Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California: "First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim. Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant. Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect. Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen. Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide. Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups. Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up. Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up." I am not a political scientist & imagine there are varying definitions of fascism...but here is one person's definition as food for thought: "The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism by Dr. Lawrence Britt Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each: 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. 4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. 5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution. 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. 7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. 9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. 10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. 14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:16:46 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: futility (njc) (for AOL users) Wally says: yes. money, riches, the meaning of commerce, and all the ideas and ideologies derived from the use and possession of wealth will lose their meaning in about 15 years. for about a decade afterwards the dominating groups will be the ones that have or can steal fresh water, food and means to protect their elites from the effects of living in earth weather. after that, that is, in about 40 years, we will cease to exist as a species and the planet will go on spinning, sustaining new habitats and surviving beings. unless the forces of harmonic concordance prevail, most of us will perish, and so will our thoughts and futility. wally > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > > rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com > > Enviado el: Jueves, 04 de Diciembre de 2003 08:52 a.m. > > Para: JMDL > > Asunto: re: Socialism (njc) > > > > > > I love you Kakki and I love you Vince. Please don't squabble > > about Jesus: He loves us all. There is only one issue currently > > confronting us that is of any importance, and that is the > > protection of our planet. Anyone who doesn't immediately agree > > with this statement is literally beyond redemption. > > > > Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:00:17 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Vince, Joni, Woodstock get the nod The Grammy nominations have been announced. From what I could see from the categories, the "Woodstock" track from Travelogue was nominated for Best Instrumental Arrangement Accompanying Vocalists. I guess that means that Mendoza is the one who is nominated. Brenda??? I was pissed that Travelogue didn't get nominated for packaging. Jimmy (with an actual JC post) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:06:49 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Thank you Lori (NJC) Dear Lori, I just checked out the web page dedicated to Andrea and I was touched beyone words. Thank you taking the time and effort to create such a beautiful tribute. I finally got a chance to see the face behind the name and seeing her in that boat alive and smiling caused such a pain in my heart because I never got a chance to physically meet her. I will keep her memory in my heart though, you can count on that! Love, Sherelle Lori wrote: I've been working on a fitting tribute to Andrea, and although it's not absolutely complete and still needs to be posted on jmdl.com, I would like to share it with all of you today. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #602 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)