From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #594 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 30 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 594 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- St Andrews Greetings (NJC) ["TheWizardOfIs" ] NJC To all feeling blue ["Loa Nickloy" ] Re: Bob Muller's basketball essay, njc I guess ["Jim Leonard" ] Off the Record ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: Joni Poll Results - Least Favorites [Bobsart48@aol.com] Charlie Hayden njc [Rob & Tracy ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #593 [peter stefanides ] Hejira review and thoughts on challenging artists (sjc) [Justalittlebreen] Re: MG-prayers NJC ["Lori Fye" ] RE: David Sylvian(njc) ["Victor Johnson" ] RE: crossovers (NJC) ["patrick leader" ] Re: 40 watt successes/Joni Star/Britney NJC [Brenda ] Re: Subject: was alone -- here NOW Patty Griffin njc [Brenda ] Re: Poll results - warning: this email may put you to sleep [Jenny Goodsp] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:47:05 -0000 From: "TheWizardOfIs" Subject: St Andrews Greetings (NJC) Guid wishes tae aw ye MacJoni-people oan this, St Andrew's day! AMO We were bought and sold for English gold Such a parcel of rogues in a nation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:41:45 EST From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Carolyne Mas NJC An acquaintance from the Janis Ian board has turned me on to Carolyne Mas, singer/songwriter recording electric-guitar based pop for about 30 years now. Kind of sounds like Springsteen, Janis Ian and Marshall Crenshaw blended together. Anybody familiar with her? Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:07:02 +0000 From: tantra-apso Subject: MG-prayers NJC Please do NOT inundate MG with email. i dont' even know if I should do this. MG has been sick for a while and what she was telling me of her symptoms concerned me a great deal. Now they have found a mass on her pancreas. She is very very ill. Please send you best thoughts. MG and I grew close years ago and have been in constant touch. She recently re married and aquired a larger family. We have even spoken on the phone despite her hearing difficulties. I love this woman and admire her greatly.We are the same age, more or less. Life can seem really unfair. I will be kept informed and thus you will be. Please pray for her to cope. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:25:30 -0500 From: "Loa Nickloy" Subject: NJC To all feeling blue To Wally, Your not alone,trust me ok.i am new here but i feel like this is a good place.Everyone that responed to me were kind.I feel lonely sometimes,more than less.Then this wonderful thing comes in the email.I read about all kinds of things.Everyone is kind and thoughtful,Where i use to think did all that go.I found it again here.So Wally keep you chin up.OK! There are actually people that take time to tell you they care. To Colin,i get from the gist of what eveyone is saying that you have heart problems? Well my hubby the Aug before last had open heart surgey.He is doing ok.Cut out the red meats if your not a vegatarian.Oatmeal is like packman for getting through the cholestrial.as little carb as you can.It gets easier as you get used to it.You don't even miss it after awhile.k LOA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:39:06 -0500 From: "Jim Leonard" Subject: Re: Bob Muller's basketball essay, njc I guess > >**BTW, I'm enjoying the instrumental takes on Joni that Bob Muller made. It's 13 tracks called "NOT A WORD".** > > > Thanks pal! I put that together specifically for my buddy "Boston Jim" Leonard and I liked it so much I decided it needed a little wider distribution. > Thanks again for "Not A Word," Bob, and I'm glad to know that others are now enjoying it. It's highly recommended by me (and Lama), folks, so get with Bob to arrange for a copy. There's not a wasted track on it. Also, as long as I'm writing, I want to mention that "Surf's Up" (along with "Good Vibrations," which had just been a hit single) was to have been the centerpiece of the Beach Boys' "Smile" album, Brian Wilson's follow-up to the groundbreaking "Pet Sounds." (I could write all day as to why "Pet Sounds" deserves its #2 ranking in the Rolling Stone list.) After obsessing and working on "Smile" for what seemed to Capitol Records like ages, Brian had a mental breakdown and the album remains unfinished. Bits and pieces of it later turned up on "Smiley Smile," "Wild Honey," "20/20," of course, "Surf's Up," etc., albeit with newly added overdubs by "the boys" (without Brian's involvement). There are many bootlegs of the original "Smile" tracks (and there were hundreds of tracks) making the rounds, and all are fascinating. A great overview is presented in the 4-disc Beach Boys box set, "Good Vibrations," and they are the only officially-released original tracks to see the light of day (so far). "Heroes And Villains" is another well-known song that emerged from the aborted "Smile" sessions, and on the box set you can hear it in its original (extended) form. Word has it that Brian will be following his triumphant "Pet Sounds Symphonic Tour" of a couple of years ago with a similar treatment of "Smile," performing the album as conceived, with his great band and a full orchestra. Best, and Happy Holidays, "Boston" Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:07:00 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: (NJC) Remember Rachel Davis?? ...from the Joni Tribute at Club Passim? Stephen and I are going to see her this Friday, December 5th at 8PM (dinner before that) at Capo's Folf Club in Lowell, MA. Anyone from the Boston area want to join us? More info and tix at: www.caposfolk.com. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:16:34 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Poll Summary - "Most Favorites" Bob Muller wrote: "It also says something I think about the tremendous disparity of this group, which again should not come as any big shocker to anyone but I think it's another way that the JMDL differs from the other music-oriented lists that I've been a part of over the years, which pretty much are a homogeneous group. JMDLer's are all over the map, in more ways than one. Yet ironically, this is the most peaceful of the lists I've been on, which I think speaks well of as PEOPLE. Bob" Right on, Bob - as was the rest of your analysis (certainly the one about an "overall" poll being more skewed to her earlier albums) That said, I think Joni would like the idea of having each of her projects represented on a collection, don't you ? Bobsart (still doing more analysis - more observations to come, I'm afraid) ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:31:49 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Favorites In a message dated 11/29/03 12:03:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobsart48 writes: Bobsart PS - Then I thought, how could there be a "Hits" and a "Favorites" album without Amelia or River or Hejira - so, I'm gonna add back the 4 albums I cut out to try to squeeze a few more in Oops - River is on Hits, thank goodness. Alright, I've added back the two concert albums, and Tlog - but not BSN, which only has covers except for two songs already on the list. Cactus Tree Song To A Seagull I Think I Understand Clouds Conversation Ladies Of The Canyon A Case Of You Blue Judgement Of The Moon & Stars For The Roses Down To You Court and Spark Rainy Night House Miles of Aisles Don't Interrupt The Sorrow The Hissing of Summer Lawns Song For Sharon Hejira Don Juan's Reckless Daughter DJRD The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines Mingus Amelia Shadows and Light Moon At The Window Wild Things Run Fast The Three Great Stimulants Dog Eat Dog My Secret Place Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm Two Grey Rooms Night Ride Home The Sire Of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song) Turbulent Indigo Harlem In Havana Taming The Tiger You Dream Flat Tires Travelogue ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:36:05 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Colin's recovery, NJC I kicked Diet Coke. For about 15 years I've been drinking it with lunch and dinner. While doing car repair, I had one "going" (like an alcoholic?) the whole time. This year I had an attack of "post-nasal drip" every afternoon and didn't know why. I thought about my daily routine and realized I had coffee in the morning and Diet Coke with lunch. When I cut it out, my daily phlegm attack stopped. There are a lot of horror stories about asparatame. I'm not familiar with them because they sound like hoaxes and conspiracy theories. I'm not drinking it because of my own symptoms. Make mine iced tea, please, Lama Colin said, >>AVOID ARTIFICIAL SWEETENER. Not only is it bad for you, it keeps your desire for sweet going and in some people still causes an insulin release and thus stalls weight loss.>> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:16:35 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Off the Record Thanks to Bob, SCJoniguy, for sending me what I consider one of the most critical Joni recordings of the past decade. setlist: Joni Mitchell ~ Off The Record Volume 1: Early Originals 1. Play Little David, Play 2. The Wizard Of Is 3. The Gift Of The Magi 4. The Way It Is 5. Day After Day 6. Dr. Junk 7. Brandy Eyes 8. Mr. Blue 9. Eastern Rain 10. Born To Take The Highway 11. Carnival In Kenora 12. Winter Lady 13. Just Like Me 14. Blue On Blue 15. Come To The Sunshine 16. The London Bridge Song 17. Ballerina Valerie 18. Favorite Colour 19. Go Tell The Drummer Man 20. A Melody In Your Name 21. Looking Out For Love 22. Hunter Joni Mitchell ~ Off The Record Volume 2: Covers, Duets & Other Stuff 1. Get Together 2. Sugar Mountain 3. Me And My Uncle 4. Mr. Tambourine Man 5. Yarrow 6. Blow Away The Morning Dew (w/Oscar Brand) 7. Prithee Pretty Maiden (w/Oscar Brand) 8. I Still Miss Someone (w/Johnny Cash) 9. The Long Black Veil (w/Johnny Cash) 10. Girl From The North Country (w/Johnny Cash) 11. The Dolphin Song (w/Fred Neill) 12. Heard It Through The Grapevine 13. It's All Over Now, Baby Blue 14. Goodbye Blue Sky 15. Trouble Man 16. The Man I Love 17. Summertime 18. Steadfast To have all the early unreleased pieces on 1 disc is so important to understanding Joni's musical development. GREAT JOB BOB! Its art:) peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:28:04 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Poll Results - Least Favorites OK, yesterday I compiled a "Most Favorites" collection from the Bob Muller survey. (I modified it today). Today, we have a "Least Favorites" group. Here's the raw list The Pirate of Penance Song To A Seagull Roses Blue Clouds Blue Boy Ladies Of The Canyon This Flight Tonight Blue Blonde In The Bleachers For The Roses Raised on Robbery Court and Spark Love or Money Miles of Aisles The Jungle Line The Hissing of Summer Lawns Blue Motel Room Hejira The Tenth World DJRD Sweet Sucker Dance Mingus Why Do Fools Fall In Love Shadows and Light You Dream Flat Tires Wild Things Run Fast Smokinb (Empty, Try Another) Dog Eat Dog Dancinb Clown Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm Raybs Dadbs Cadillac Night Ride Home Last Chance Lost Turbulent Indigo Lead Balloon Taming The Tiger Donbt Go To Strangers Both Sides Now For The Roses Travelogue Now, there are quite a few good songs on the above list, IMO. Once again, in order to "purify" the JMDL's "Least Favorites" compilation, I will offer the list below, which replaces any song that is a "cover" of any type with a pure "words and music by Joni" track, culled - admittedly - from a vastly reduced and less significant sample. In this case, I have eliminated 10th World and Smokin, due to lack of words and - to large extent - music. Before I do, however, I would observe that there are quite a few songs on this list showing off Joni's bawdy or humorous side (I refer to ROR, BMR, WDFFIL, YDFT, Smokin, DancinClown, Ray's Dad's Cadillac and - to some extent - Lead Ballon). Is it that we as a group do not like Joni's sense of humour, or that we do not have much of one collectively ourselves ? (Not I, Joni - We could talk about Jesse We could talk about Rowdy Yates I'm not above hockey But I'll sit on a secret where your recipe's at stake Or we could talk about smokin' About Brando and Ray's Dad's math books Or Lead Food Melvin Or last word Suzie's looks Please just talk to me Any old theme you choose Just come and talk to me Mrs. Mystery, talk to me. ) Also, congratulations to You Dream Flat Tires, which made both the "Favorites" and "Least Favorites" compilations, in different forms. The Pirate of Penance Song To A Seagull Roses Blue Clouds Blue Boy Ladies Of The Canyon This Flight Tonight Blue Blonde In The Bleachers For The Roses Raised on Robbery Court and Spark Love or Money Miles of Aisles The Jungle Line The Hissing of Summer Lawns Blue Motel Room Hejira Talk To Me DJRD Sweet Sucker Dance Mingus Free Man In Paris Shadows and Light You Dream Flat Tires Wild Things Run Fast Fiction Dog Eat Dog Dancinb Clown Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm Raybs Dadbs Cadillac Night Ride Home Last Chance Lost Turbulent Indigo Lead Balloon Taming The Tiger For The Roses Travelogue Come to think about it, that still leaves SSD and Fiction, where Joni did not write the music. Talk to Me, indeed !! Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:21:20 -0600 From: Rob & Tracy Subject: Charlie Hayden njc Hey, quick question - does anybody here know anything about Charlie Hayden? I heard a couple of songs lately on CBC Radio and I am blown away. Any suggestions as to a good sampler of his work? Happy Sunday, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:51:44 -0800 (PST) From: peter stefanides Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #593 Trivia question answer: Snake White Evangelists And Racketeers SWEAR JMDL Digest wrote: JMDL Digest Sunday, November 30 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 593 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: - -------- Re: [NortheastJonifest] nov 29!!!!!! njc [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Shooting above the ducks...njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] nov 29!!!!!! njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Fw: Colin's *crabs* NJC (for AOL users) [Emiliano Fw: statistics njc (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Fw: nov 29!!!!!! njc (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] Re: Colin's revcovery, NJC [tantra-apso ] Re: Joni's album rankings ["Paul Mepschen" ] Re: Joni's album rankings [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: joni tarot card ["Lori Fye" ] Fw: alone -- here njc (for AOL users) ["Sherelle Smith" Re: Let us be thankful (NJC) ["Sherelle Smith" Re: Colin's recovery, NJC ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Joni's album rankings [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Poll Summary - "Most Favorites" [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Colin's revcovery, NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni's album rankings ["Mark or Travis" ] def leppard njc [Rob & Tracy ] crossovers (NJC) ["Joseph S.E. Palis" ] RE: [NortheastJonifest] nov 29!!!!!! njc ["Kate Bennett" Re: Joni's album rankings now Bruuuuuce ["Kate Bennett" Bob's Sweet Sixteen - Part Deux ["Joseph S.E. Palis" female country singers, njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni's album rankings now Bruuuuuce ["Richard Flynn" Re: def leppard njc [vince ] Re: Joni's album rankings ["Mark or Travis" ] Gwen Stefani njc [Rob & Tracy ] joni's angst [tantra-apso ] Re: Poll Summary - "Most Favorites" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Bob's Sweet Sixteen - Part Deux [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Re: Colin's recovery, NJC [] Re: Joni's album rankings now Bruuuuuce [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: and so once again [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] RE: Colin's revcovery, NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Today in History: November 30 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: November 30 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:08:36 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] nov 29!!!!!! njc Hey Jim, David and I wish you a very "Happy Birthday." We were just looking at the Saskatoon photos the other day and we need to get a package together for you. We even have a video of our trip to the "Broadway Bridge." Naturally the camera was upside down for part of the journey, but I'm sure you'll get goose bumps just remembering the fun we had that day. "Our Best To You" Much Love David&David - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:18:30 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Shooting above the ducks...njc >Joni Mitchell is not a folk singer. She is a contemporary musician/poet/singer far ahead of and far apart from the contemporary scene. > I went to see EMS again, the guitarist/keyboardist songwriter who's name I forget at this moment introduced the first song he wrote (not on their album) with this story- he was living in nashville & had some interest from publishers...he was in the office playing his the song for an exec who stretched his cowboy boots up on the desk & said 'son, I think you're shooting above the ducks' - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:48:11 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] nov 29!!!!!! njc In a message dated 11/29/03 2:53:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: > folks, big one here -- so get over your post-turkey day dyspepsia and pay > heed: > > it is... Jim Johanson's birthday!!!!!! > > H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y > > dear jj!!!! you're one of the heroes. joni should have a special clause > about you in her will. > [Unable to display image]HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIM!!!! Rosie in NJ xxoo just got home from seeing Sister Soozie Tyrell at the Stone Pony [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/x-art which had a name of Untitled01] - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:11:28 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Colin's *crabs* NJC (for AOL users) Wally says: i missed colin's tips on low carb diets. can someone resend them? wally, trying to find the cheapest way to eat, save money and maybe look better to boost - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:12:14 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: statistics njc (for AOL users) Wally says: i'm so terrible at applied math!!!! this year i had to teach descriptive statistics and discreet probability and i SUCKED. i couldn't solve any of the problems half of the time -- my students had to explain them to me! LOL! i'm pretty good at abstract stuff: number theory, algebra, but when it comes to calculating anything -- including making change -- i am an utter asshole. by the way, jim, there would be no split infinitive in your sentence because... there are no infinitives to split there! (forgive me, i couldn't resist...) > wally, wishing jenny or jim could take over my discrete probability students while i discretely learn the stuff > > > > > > Jenny, the birthday girl said, > > >Bob, because there are so few songs on each album the > > reliability is > > not great - which is why the standard deviation for STAS is high > > - when you > > have 10 or fewer observations, the influence that any one observation > > (Cactus Tree) can have on the results means that measures of central > > tendency may not the best way to represent the results.> - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:12:58 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: nov 29!!!!!! njc (for AOL users) Wally says: folks, big one here -- so get over your post-turkey day dyspepsia and pay heed: > it is... Jim Johanson's birthday!!!!!! > H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y > dear jj!!!! you're one of the heroes. joni should have a special clause about you in her will. > love, wally le K - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:46:27 +0000 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Colin's revcovery, NJC Bree Mcdonough wrote: > > > Anyway..good luck to everyone trying to reduce...it ain't easy. surprisingly, I am going to disagree with this. At any other time in the last 30 years I would have agreed but not now. Once you have sorted out how to eat low carb, hand have got the high carbs and sugar out of your system, your cravings go and so does abnormal hunger. When you do feel hungry, say between meals, popping in a small bit of cheese or a slice or two of ham, and it goes. Or even just a coffee with heavy cream(see learning Yank speak here). The reason for the success of this way of eating, and for the energy you get, is that you blood sugar does not spike. When you eat a high carb food, you blood sugar level rises quick;y and high. Insulin then lowers it and to the point you are hungry again. Explains why you can feel hungry 30 mins after eating a huge pasta meal or Chinese. Anyway, what happens to that glucose? It gets turned into fat-your body fat. To start, to 'detox', eat as much as you want of meats, dairy, fish and green veg and salad, oils and other fats. NOTHING ELSE. You may well feel pretty yuk after a day or two and it may last a week to 10 days. For me I thought by day 7 I couldn't possibly go on as I so tired. i awoke on the 8th feeling like I had never felt in my life-full of energy and clear headed. After two weeks oyu continue in the same vein but adding more in the way of veggies. Add also strawberries, rhubarb, blackberries and any other LOW carb fruits. Not apples, Oranges and the like which are way too high. But the veggies you can eat as much as you like and ,no excuses, you should eat lots of them. Good nutrition demands it. By now you will have found your appetite will have decreased. So despite being told to eat as much as you want, which you will do at first, you will find your appetite corrects itself of it's own accord. from then on, it is plain sailing, no longer a 'diet', and it is just the way you eat. BUT you still have to really want to be free of the problem in order to avoid going backwards. you have to want it enough to ignore the smell of freshly baked bread or the sight of a scrummy belgian choc. Of course without the hunger and the cravings, this is much easier to do. And wally, it can be cheap. I have made this week sevral soups, the latest using a pig leg. Put in a pressure cooker the leg(in this case the leg was cut in 4, and 2 frozen for later use). PPour in red wine, add plenty of shallotts and garlic, and pressure cook for a couple of hours. Obiously you have to stop after about halh an hour to add more water, if you don't you pressure cooker will dryout long before the cooking is finished. Anyway, once this is cooked(the mat will ahve fallen off the bones), add salt to taste and peepr. You now have enough for at elast 4 meals. I divide it into freezer friendly containers and freeeze it. When I want one, I defrost it, add whatever veggies I want, recook and eat. Now these 4 or so meals cost about $1 each. AVOID ARTIFICIAL SWEETENER. Not only is it bad for you, it keeps your desire for sweet going and in some people still causes an insulin release and thus stalls weight loss. This way of eating, is not just for weight loss but for nayone wishing to well and healhtilyt and avoid diabets and other problems. Diabetes is not just for overweight people. and avoid like the plague, TRANS FATS, ie hydrogeneated fats. A definate no no and a big contributer to disease. They are not natural fats, bu man made. > > > Bree > > > - - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:08:28 +0100 From: "Paul Mepschen" Subject: Re: Joni's album rankings Actually -- Hejira is my favorite Joni album -- the reason that I ranked Blue higher is that it was more influential -- Rolling Stone might one day consider Blue good enough for the top 10, but never Hejira -- Paul of the Netherlands - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:37:30 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's album rankings Another one of the Bobs (Murphy) wrote Still, the most over-the-top praise for a musician by a critic in my lifetime must be, "I have seen the future of rock and roll and his name is Bruce Springsteen." - --Troy, digesting like a madman Yeah - pretty prophetic, too. Also, like Hejira, that would not have been my call at first listen (I saw him, scraggly and LOUD, at a place called Max's Kansas City some 30 years ago, and wondered what all the fuss was about). Even upon more careful reading, I would take the Joni quotes over the Bruce quote - he is predicted to extend an idiom, she is acknowledged to have transcended it. Here are the two paragraphs from that review that preceded the final five lines already posted: "Joni Mitchell's artistry is difficult to measure against the backdrop of 1976. She is ahead of the contemporary scene in scope, intention and effect. Her music comes from five years on. 'Hejira' is a flight from musical convention. It is, like 'The Hissing Of Summer Lawns,' one of the most important works written within the 'rock' idiom -- though the 'rock' convenience label is constricting and misleading. " I pointed out the Max v Jaco error earlier - here, we see a flawed prediction - - - that Joni's music comes from 5 years on. We are here 27 years later, and nothing has quite come from the same place (much less come close to) Hejira since, IMO. In sympathy to the reviewer, recall that Hejira came 5 years after Blue. Perhaps he estimated the pace of human progress in stretching the "popular" music form in those terms (viz, 5 years of advancement = Hejira - Blue). Moral - don't confuse light years with chronological years. Bobsart - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:22:28 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: joni tarot card I wrote: >> I also have a Joni tarot card "magnet" on my fridge, kate du nord, card reader, responded: > now that would make an interesting set! who else would be in it? and > which card was joni? queen of cups? XVII, the Stars (which was altered slightly to become simply the "Star") These cards are on eBay all the time; in fact, there's one now at (copy & paste link to your browser if it breaks here): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=3366899309&category=210 I'm not sure who all is in the first deck of rock 'n roll tarot cards. There are two decks, both created by Chris Paradis (and you know there may be more). In the second deck, Diana Ross is the 17th card. As an interesting aside, if you go to http://www.chrisparadis.com, you'll get a real estate broker in Saskatoon, of all places! This is not the Chris Paradis who created the tarot cards, but ... synchronicity? You tell me. Lori ~ http://www.aidsmarathon.com/participant/2003/fundraising.jsp ~ - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:32:14 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Fw: alone -- here njc (for AOL users) Dear Wally, I just got to my email this morning and read your email. You do have someone-all of us and we love you very much. I believe wishes and dreams can come true. Keep your head up and hope alive. One thing I've learned is that the doors do indeed open, they just have their own timing. The painful part is waiting, waiting, waiting. It cuts like a knife sometimes, but be strong-it will happen. If you don't have enough faith, borrow some of mine. Love, Sherelle Wally says: i'm feeing kind of lonely tonight. this isn't a cry for help or anything. i just feel like sending this message to the list. i guess they're the only folks i can send a message like this to in the middle of the night. i wish i had a good job. i wish i were smarter. i wish it were autumn. i wish i were spending thanksgiving day with someone. i wish i had a home somewhere. i wish i wish i wish. ok. end of message. bye now, wally _________________________________________________________________ Say goodbye to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:43:54 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Let us be thankful (NJC) Dear Jimmy, Thank you so much for sharing Suze's poem with us. How touching that you held on to it for these past four years. Suze, this poem is so fantastic and amazing! It really touched my heart! Love, Sherelle Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:22:15 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Let us be thankful NJC This was a post from jmdler Sue Cameron 4 years ago, which I'd like to post again. I AM THANKFUL... ...for the taxes that I pay because it means that I am employed. ...for the mess to clean after a party because it means I have been surrounded by friends. ...for the clothes that fit a little too snug because it means I have enough to eat. ...for my shadow who watches me work because it means I am out in the sunshine. ...for a lawn that needs mowing, windows that need cleaning and gutters that need fixing because it means I have a home. ...for all the complaining I hear about government because it means we have freedom of speech. ...for the spot I find at the far end of the parking lot because it means I am capable of walking. ...for my huge heating bill because it means I am warm. ...for the lady behind me in church who sings off key because it means that I can hear. ...for the piles of laundry and ironing because it means I have clothes to wear. ...for weariness and aching muscles at the end of the day because it means I have been productive. ...for the alarm that goes off in the early morning hours because it means that I am alive. ...for getting too much e-mail because it lets me know I have friends who are thinking of me! ...for having to wait until next year for the new Joni CD because at least there will be one! (This one, I'm not so sure about) HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL THOSE WHO CELEBRATE!!! Jimmy (Thanks Suze) _________________________________________________________________ From the hottest toys to tips on keeping fit this winter, youll find a range of helpful holiday info here. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:54:39 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Colin's recovery, NJC Dear Colin, Jim is right on target with this one! Know that you really do have friends who love you and wish you well. We won't let you go. Believe that! Love, Sherelle From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Colin's recovery, NJC Colin, We're all pulling for ya, big guy. Even me. :) Okay. You did the right thing by checking in at the JMDL. Now the prayers start. You're heart's gonna be fine again. You know, the JMDL has a pretty damn good history of miracles. _________________________________________________________________ Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:16:49 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's album rankings While acknowledging the "important" status of JM's recordings, let's not forget one of her most self-revealing lines, the modest four words: "I love to dance." The rhythmic energy, the joy, the abandon, the boldness are central. None of her "ideas" or "observations" would have the impact they have if they had been planted in musical solemnity. The kid loved rock 'n' roll; what c'n I tell ya? LAHM - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:03:54 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Poll Summary - "Most Favorites" I do not think it has been summarized yet, so here is a collection that might be labelled "Most Favorites", based on the Bob Muller survey. I have selected one song from each album that had the highest difference between the number of "most favorite" and "least favorite" votes. In a couple of cases I had to break ties (Two Grey Rooms over Passion Play, because the former had more "Most Favorite" votes, and YDFT over Amelia and Slouching on Tlog, based on my limited poll responses for Tlog). The raw tally is as follows (I apologize for the formatting, but that is a problem with the JMDL's editor - why not edit in Word ?) : Cactus Tree Song To A Seagull Chelsea Morning Clouds Conversation Ladies Of The Canyon A Case Of You Blue Judgement Of The Moon & Stars For The Roses Down To You Court and Spark === message truncated === Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:21:15 EST From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Hejira review and thoughts on challenging artists (sjc) Hi, gang, Just finished reading this review by Tim Lott from the archives: 1976: "The tip of the iceberg" - Sounds (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=354 and I think it's one of the best, most insightful articles/reviews of JM that I've ever read. I remember in my dorm room in college, which i had to share with three other guys (long, boring story), when one of my roomies would come in and "Jungle Line" or "Strange Boy" would be playing, they'd say something along the lines of "What the f**k is that -- are you out of your mind -- is she out of her mind -- is that really the same chick that sang "Help Me" and "Free Man In Paris"?..." and so on. I'd be just as amazed that they were transfixed by Joni's daring stuff. (This is totally irrelevant, I know, but I lived as the only *out* gay guy in a house full of 30+ guys -- not that there's anything *wrong* with that -- and to some degree, they figured my weird musical taste had something to do with my liking Joni and Laura; maybe -- but I didn't meet many gay guys back then who shared my taste. I was telling this to someone over breakfast at the most recent Fest, and we looked around the dining room at the lodge, and there were more gay people than straight at that particular moment. One had to laugh.) It brings up for me why I like different artists for different reasons. Here are some of the artists that I like *because* they challenge me: JM (above all others) Laura Nyro (everything, even her later stuff, which is less passionate in some ways, but I still love her idiosyncratic hooks. I cried a lot when she died.) Jane Siberry (esp. her very first album, with "Marco Polo", "This Girl I Know", etc., and The Walking, but also all of the others up to Bound By the Beauty. I wasn't thrilled by When I Was a Boy [perhaps she needs a stronger producer, or perhaps she's gone beyond my ability to follow her -- anyway WIWAB seemed a little too abstruse and self-indulgent], and haven't heard any of her more recent stuff. I'd like to hear what any of y'all might have to say about more recent stuff. EARLY Rickie Lee Jones (maybe the first five or six albums (through Satellites), but then I lost track of her, then I got ghostyhead and YUCK CITY. I know some people love this album, but I don't get it.) David Sylvan (Yowsa. I suppose he tends to repeat himself, but don't we all. His music is heavily influenced by his religion [Hinduism, or is it Buddhism? -- well, that's awkward, I'm not sure], but I like his hypnotic voice and complex melodies and rhythms. At the moment I have Gone to Earth [1986, Capitol Records], which I used to have on a double LP way back when; and i have what i believe is called Dead Bees On a Cake, but I've seen it called something else in the press, so I'm not sure; I'm also not sure of the year, since it's printed in brown on brown in 2-point type -- what's the point? (Before his solo career, he was in the group "Japan", if that rings a bell.) Bjork (in spite of occasional opaque, solipsistic or banal lyrics; I *love* the modal stuff she does in Vespertine -- especially the transcendent "It's Not Up To You"; also, I'm sure this was discussed at the time of Vespertine's release, but does the song "My Hidden Place" ring any bells for anyone? And I'd love any recommendations as to which album to buy next.) Robin Holcomb (Anyone else know/love her? She has an odd/interesting Appalachian hiccuppy delivery, now grown rather wispy, fascinating, frequently haunting lyrics, and an absolutely amazing sense of melody. On what I *think* is her first album [1991, self-titled, on Elektra], the song "So Straight and Slow" blows my mind because of her abrupt switches between keys and between major/minor -- sometimes she's singing in one key/mode and playing piano in another! And on her most recent album [The Big Time, Nonesuch, 2002], she does the same in the song "If You Can't Make the Curve". I love this stuff. Does anybody know of any albums by her in the 11-year gap? She's admittedly idiosyncratic, so she may have had trouble getting or staying on big labels...) For melody, I still love Bacharach and Jimmy Webb, ... and SO MANY OTHERS, but I do go on -- just wanted to blather on a while and see how many other fans of these artists there are out there in jmdlland. Best to all, Walt JustaLittleBreen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:22:47 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: MG-prayers NJC > Please pray for her to cope. I will, Colin. Thank you for letting us know. Love, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:50:24 -0800 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: David Sylvian(njc) > David Sylvan (Yowsa. I suppose he tends to repeat himself, but don't we all. > His music is heavily influenced by his religion [Hinduism, or is it > Buddhism? -- well, that's awkward, I'm not sure], but I like his hypnotic voice and > complex melodies and rhythms. At the moment I have Gone to Earth [1986, Capitol > Records], which I used to have on a double LP way back when; and i have what > i believe is called Dead Bees On a Cake, but I've seen it called something > else in the press, so I'm not sure; I'm also not sure of the year, since it's > printed in brown on brown in 2-point type -- what's the point? (Before his > solo career, he was in the group "Japan", if that rings a bell.) I'm a huge David Sylvian fan. "Dead Bees on a Cake" is the correct title for his 1999 release. I like that album alot as I do "Gone to Earth". I would also highly recommend "Secrets of the Beehive" which is great from beginning to end and includes the song "Forbidden Colours" from the movie "Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence" starring David Bowie. I have his most recent release, "blemish" which for awhile has only been available from his website. It's very sparse and more challenging to listen to but I have enjoyed it somewhat...perhaps a bit more meditative. Anyway, he just completed a short European tour...he rarely performs in the US...:>( ....but maybe someday I'll get the opportunity to see a live show. Just a four short years ago, I never dreamed I'd have the chance to see Joni.. Victor NP: Rush "The Weapon" Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:30:15 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: crossovers (NJC) >I just want to know if anyone can suggest to me a good album of >operatic singers doing cross-overs to (for lack of an appropriate >term) to pop. Joseph: Anne Sofie von Otter meets Elvis Costello, For the Stars Opera crossover is often very, very bad, because the vocal techniques that work for for singers to create volume in a huge house are so different from what is available in microphone technique, and most classical singers don't do the work. dawn upshaw is definitely an exception. on the recording above, von otter shows exquisite taste and restraint; she's kind of known as an ice-queen singer in classical anyway, but i find the distance more compelling, it draws me in. great songlist, chosen mostly by costello, including waits' 'broken bicycles' and 'this house is empty now', repeated from costello's collaboration with bachrach. i highly recommend this recording. patrick np - faure, in paradisium ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:35:51 -0800 From: Brenda Subject: Re: 40 watt successes/Joni Star/Britney NJC This Thanksgiving weekend I finally had the opportunity to catch up on the Joni list. And much to my surprise I find myself wanting to defend Britney Spears. I don't listen to her records. I don't own a single piece of music by her. I think she is marginally talented, which is nothing unusual ... seems like every generation has someone of marginal talent who has been successful. I think she is an easy target and I haven't seen anyone present an opposing position to what has been written about her...so why not? on 11/19/03 SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Of course, hundreds of years from now when space age people are flying over > the walk in their Jetson-mobiles, they'll recognize Joni as one of the premier > composers of the 20th century and say "Britney who?" At least that is my > fervent prayer. and on 11/19/03 Bree wrote: > What will be sort of interesting to see if she is around in the spotlight five > years from now. Britney has managed to release four records in four years and is an icon for a generation, no matter what anyone not of that generation may think. I would wager that years from now she will be remembered because she best symbolizes a cultural period or phenomenon - just like Joni or Madonna or Michael Jackson or Prince or Annette Funicello (left field, I know, but they have that Mickey Mouse Club thing in common). on 11/19/03, Catherine McKay at anima_rising@yahoo.ca wrote: >kind of feel sorry for the Britneys and others because >they're being used by the business. and on 11/19/03 8:20 PM, Bruce Kimerer at kimerer@taconic.net wrote: > > If Britney was dropped by her record company, would she market her work > herself? My guess is no, because she is a creation of the company. > I disagree strongly. I think she would carry on with or without a record company, because she is already reaching beyond music, albeit with varied measures of success. This girl is not stupid; she is not so much being used by the business as she is using it. It's not happenstance that she has become friendly with Madonna. She could BE Madonna in 20 years. She embodies blonde ambition. on 11/19/03 4:29 PM, Catherine McKay at anima_rising@yahoo.ca wrote: > I'm probably going to regret asking, but what in the > name of Joni has Britney Spears done for the > community? > She has a foundation that not only holds the performing arts camp but has also become a vehicle for raising money for cancer research, the Twin Towers fund, and AIDS prevention. She is also a spokesperson for the Starlight Foundation. She may not have very much talent, but for a 21 year old, she has managed to not only avoid the dangerous and deadly pitfalls that befall so many young celebrities, but she also maintains a vision for herself and, despite popular belief, is not a puppet. B n.p.: Denver at Oakland (The Indy game was a nailbiter!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:54:58 -0800 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Counting Crows and Blue - TV ad - vljc on 11/21/03 11:44 PM, Bobsart48@aol.com at Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > I just saw (for the second time in a near-stupor) a late night TV ad on CNN > featuring a spot by Adam Duritz and the Counting Crows. > > After the spot, the ad says words to the effect of "join Adam Duritz and Blue > in the fight to keep music education in schools" > > There is a blue, square symbol in the ad which (to me) seemed a powerful sort > of surrogate for the Blue album cover (no Joni picture or anything, as far as > I could tell at a glance). > > Give Duritz's well documented love of that record, and the not insignificant > "brand name" value of Blue, I wonder if Joni has any involvement in this (at > least in allowing Blue to be used as the organization's name and/or symbol, > without copyright infringement). Also, does copyright law overlap trademarks > in a > case like this ? > What you saw was an ad for the new Save The Music campaign which is being sponsored by American Express (specifically, the "Blue" credit card). I don't think Joni is working on this campaign - I know that Crows, Mary J. Blige and former teacher Sheryl Crow are involved. http://www.americanexpress.digisle.tv/blueformusic/ If music education was important to you in grade or secondary school (it certainly changed my life), then hopefully you will find this organization worthy of your support, even if you just write a letter. http://www.vh1.com/insidevh1/savethemus/you_can_help/index.html Another good one is Grammy In The Schools. If you have a business related to the entertainment industry, I highly recommend granting an internship to a Y.E.S. To Jobs student: http://www.grammy.com/foundation/gits/ http://www.grammy.com/foundation/gits/resources.html Jumping off my stump now.... B n.p.: Denver @ Oakland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:10:45 -0800 From: Brenda Subject: Re: Subject: was alone -- here NOW Patty Griffin njc on 11/26/03 3:15 PM, Catherine McKay at anima_rising@yahoo.ca wrote: > --- Kate Bennett wrote: > > Wally, I am sad you are feeling lonely but I am >> happy you told us... I >> think you are among the smartest people I know! Your >> post triggered a >> song in my head, one of my favorite Patty Griffin >> songs. Do you know it? >> Here are the lyrics: >> >> Top of the World >> >> I wished I was smarter >> Wished I was stronger >> I wished I loved Jesus >> The way the my wife does >> > > Kate - I LOVE that song! I heard a version by, I'm > sure it's the Dixie Chicks (?) recently. But of > course, Patty's is so much better (ain't that always > the way?) I'm sure Patty is not complaining....thanks to the Dixie Chicks she undoubtedly has acquired something new - whether it be a house, car, gear or a healthier bank account. The Chicks have covered three of her songs on two multi-platinum albums and their new DVD. Nothing to sneeze at by any stretch. B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:14:55 -0800 From: Brenda Subject: Re: cover version/commercial radio njc on 11/18/03 1:13 PM, Kate Bennett at kate@katebennett.com wrote: >> I am told, often, that I need to branch out and 'try' todays music. Do > so on occasion but have yet to hear even one tune by todays 'artists' > that is anything worth listening to. Will keep trying. There has to be > someone that is putting out worthy music but where is it?< > > Not on the radio or at least on commercial radio...HOWEVER, shows like > alison e's in slc & other public stations (low on your fm dial) are the > places to hear good music these days... I disagree that worthy music can't be found on commercial radio, at least not = when it comes to hip hop. I recognize that this is not everybody's cup of tea, but if you're open, find the popular mix show on the local pop/R&B station where you live, and if you don't end up dancing in your living room, I'll buy you a cocktail. B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:32:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Poll results - warning: this email may put you to sleep Hi Bob, I guess I come at this from a different point of view. The respondents to the survey just can't be characterized as a random sample of the JMDL population. So I wouldn't apply inferential stats in this situation at all. This doesn't mean it's not interesting data - as we say in my shop, "It is what it is". But even if we did do a random sample and had a decent response rate, I don't think of the unit of observation as the song. So I guess I can't answer your question - though I have been mulling it over. My answer is, I wouldn't approach it that way. Here's what I would do: For each song calculate the percent of favorite and least favorite votes: the denominator is the number of total votes for that album/category (fave or least). Then calculate a mean and standard deviation using the percent favorite (or least fave) for all songs (regardless of album). Identify each song that is 2 or more standard deviations above the mean for all songs in each category (fave and least). Then you get a list of outliers for her entire catalog. Of course with such little data - you can really just go through and eyeball and pick out your own outliers and I bet you'd come pretty darn close. Why was the response rate low? A good response to an email survey like this would be 40% - with no follow-up or badgering people to fill it out. This was even lower because it was a bit cumbersome and time-consuming and hard too, you know, to ask people to choose favorites. I'm using the 800 or so digest and non-digest members as the denominator. It would be interesting to calculate an 'active' lister total - but some lurkers did respond to the survey i think... Definitely not a statistician! I'm a research analyst - currently doing statistical analysis and reporting for UMass Amherst. Lots of survey analysis included. Jenny bobsart48@aol.com wrote: Jenny wrote "Bob, I think it's great you're trying to make some statistical sense from these numbers - I've been thinking about it myself. " I knew I was in love from the moment I saw you ;-) "You made the unit of observation the song, and the analysis variable the tally of favorite votes. Unfortunately, because there are so few songs on each album the reliability is not great - which is why the standard deviation for STAS is high - when you have 10 or fewer observations, the influence that any one observation (Cactus Tree) can have on the results means that measures of central tendency may not the best way to represent the results. " Yes, the influence of a single "most loved" song can increase the standard deviation itself. And I see what you mean about the small number of observations, regardless of the number of survey responses. But there are a few things I have been mulling over - hypothesizing about, if you will. One is that some of Joni's records are so consistent - i.e, of such uniformly high quality that there are no real standouts and no real clunkers - that the results of a poll might approximate a binomial distribution. I was seeing some of that in the very few preliminary replies I got on the "Top 11 Tlog poll". A second is that if the survey results do produce a distribution that looks like a binomial distribution, does that mean that one cannot take the poll results of the relatively small responding group and extrapolate them onto the entire JMDL ? (I think that is interesting if not important). Perhaps you can help here. Let's assume that there were 10 candidates (songs), and we looked at the responding votes of 44 members of the JMDL. Of course, we do not know if this is a representative sample of JMDL'ers - these are the ones that were willing to respond, as opposed to unwilling. Anyway, assuming the responding group could be considered an acceptable random sample - I realize this is by no means clear - if 7 of the 44 'voted for' a particular candidate (song) as most favorite, how would this translate into a ' 95% confidence' interval (i.e., 15.9% plus or minus X% - vote for that candidate/song over the entire population of the JMDL). Or would/could one simply dismiss such results altogether as not significant at all ? For example, if of the 44 votes, no songs got shutout, 1 song got one vote, 1 songs got 2 votes, 2 songs got 3 votes, 3 songs got 4 votes, 2 songs got 5 votes, 1 song got 6 votes, 1 song got 7 votes and no song got 8 or more votes, would the closeness of that distribution to a binomial distribution suggest that the results are nearly meaningless ? That 'feels' completely wrong to me, but I confess that if the results of a particular album's votes looked like that, I would feel a lot less confident that the "vote leader" for that album would hold up over a larger sample than I would about Cactus Tree holding up ( CT was not my choice, by the way). "But using standard deviation to identify outliers like you did is valid and a fun way to look at things. It doesn't relate to statistical significance. when you start talking about random distributions and statistical significance, we're in the realm of inferential statistics. i.e. were trying to generalize results from a random sample to the general population. I would characterize Bob's survey as a census survey - he surveyed every member of the JMDL - the entire population. So there is no need to talk about statistical significance. Descriptive statistics suffice. The response rate was very low however, so we didn't get a very good snapshot of the JMDL as a whole, but the results are still very interesting. " Why was the vote so low, I wonder ? I think it is possible that there are simply not that many active members at the current time. Can Les do a count of how many different JMDl'ers have posted to the list in, say, the last month ? Isn't this an interesting enough survey to get a high response rate (or maybe Bob M did get a relatively high response rate after all) ? "well I never thought I'd get to apply knowledge from my day job here. " Nor did I, but in my case it's more like curiosity from some coursework 30 years ago. Are you a statistician ? Bobsart Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #594 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)