From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #514 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, October 13 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 514 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: education for illegal immigrants njc (from our earlier recall discussion) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re:Klein/Mitchell ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: JMDL Digest V2003 #512 ["Kate Bennett" ] do you remember me?? ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: rickie lee jones question njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Do you remember me (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] "Happy Thanksgiving" [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] question for anyone who knows [Chukchi1@aol.com] Re: Joni on others ["J.David Sapp" ] Fw: rickie's new album njc (for AOL members) [Emiliano ] henry the pug (NJC) [Bruce Kimerer ] Re:biographies of Joni ["michael o'malley" ] Janis Ian, NJC [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Janis Ian, NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: njc Felon voting rights ["kakki" ] Re: education for illegal immigrants njc (from our earlier recall discussion) ["kakki" ] Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Miranda: more than 70 hits?! [] biographies of Joni [] Re: Fw: rickie's new album njc (for AOL members) ["Mark or Travis" Subject: RE: education for illegal immigrants njc (from our earlier recall discussion) >The children of undocumented workers are attending the public schools K-12...The parents of these children are not paying any taxes (no state, Federal or property taxes) other than sales taxes. Numerically, there is not enough revenue coming in per person to support the the numbers of children to be educated so the money is always at a deficit< however there are plenty of people paying taxes who do not have kids in school...i still vote on education bond issues when i think it will better the schools even though i no longer have kids in school...the cost to the community & state & society as a whole of not providing affordable higher education to students (legal or illegal) is imo much higher... > People who come from another state to get a cheaper college education are citizens or legal residents. They are paying all the required taxes, except property tax, to help foot the bill.< in reality they are not paying any taxes as most students generally qualify as exempt because they are not making enough income...they only have to establish residency a year prior to enrollment to qualify for the reduced fees...except for that year when they may be working at low income jobs, there is no difference between out of state students & illegal residents as far as what they are contributing into the system... >I am all for making the undocumented workers legal and once they are in the system, I am all for them taking advantage of every benefit available to better themselves financially, educationally and otherwise.< me too... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:44:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re:Klein/Mitchell Re:Klein/Mitchell In a message dated 10/11/03 3:00:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: >I agree that playing with your spouse is a tough thing to do - and in Joni's case, I also suspect that you are correct that her work suffered by her having ceded some artistic control to a lesser talent (which would not have happened had they not been married - or, at least, romantically involved).< i remember thinking it was so cool that her husband was her bass player! it made me wish for that same thing...but he arrived in the form of a harmoncia player instead :~} its actually pretty much fun playing with a spouse as long as the songwriter gets the last say & egos are checked at the door... >Question 1 - if those records had turned out to be Joni's best, do you think Klein would have gotten credit for the improvement, or do you think that people would have just assumed Joni was getting better, and dragged that 'nobody' Klein along for the ride ? < i think your probably right...mostly cuz she was more famous than he was >Question 2 - if the sex roles were reversed, do you think the answer to Q1 would have been the same ?< i'd have to go with the same answer as the above...whoever was the more famous & established at the time... for a contrast, how about david crosby? they were involved during her first record & as talented as he is, he insisted that she be allowed to do her thing alone...which i think was so very astute of him...perhaps he didn't need to insert himself into her music as he had his own name recognition at the time... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:44:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re:Klein/Mitchell Re:Klein/Mitchell In a message dated 10/11/03 3:00:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: >I agree that playing with your spouse is a tough thing to do - and in Joni's case, I also suspect that you are correct that her work suffered by her having ceded some artistic control to a lesser talent (which would not have happened had they not been married - or, at least, romantically involved).< i remember thinking it was so cool that her husband was her bass player! it made me wish for that same thing...but he arrived in the form of a harmoncia player instead :~} its actually pretty much fun playing with a spouse as long as the songwriter gets the last say & egos are checked at the door... >Question 1 - if those records had turned out to be Joni's best, do you think Klein would have gotten credit for the improvement, or do you think that people would have just assumed Joni was getting better, and dragged that 'nobody' Klein along for the ride ? < i think your probably right...mostly cuz she was more famous than he was >Question 2 - if the sex roles were reversed, do you think the answer to Q1 would have been the same ?< i'd have to go with the same answer as the above...whoever was the more famous & established at the time... for a contrast, how about david crosby? they were involved during her first record & as talented as he is, he insisted that she be allowed to do her thing alone...which i think was so very astute of him...perhaps he didn't need to insert himself into her music as he had his own name recognition at the time... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:04:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2003 #512 >Joni said that he was the first bassist she heard (he was recommended to her by others) to not just play the basic bass parts but rather would create an entirely different layer. The first time I heard Hejira (the album) I didn't know what that sound even was!< fretless bass! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:04:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: do you remember me?? yes! i hope you have a successful surgery & quick recovery marilyn... >I'm Marilyn who went to 2 jonifests in MA. Haven't been able to go to NY because of health problems. Now I'm in rehab with oxygen 24/7 & waiting to have open heart surgery for a birth defect. Hope everyone out there is fine!!! Got a new laptop so I'm back on line again.< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:53:41 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: rickie lee jones question njc i'm almost finished. i'll probably need laurent's assistance on a couple of lines. i'll send it as soon as it is ready. love, wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de patrick > leader > Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Octubre de 2003 06:35 p.m. > Para: hell; Wally Kairuz; joni@smoe.org > Asunto: RE: rickie lee jones question njc > > > hey wally: > > i'd love a rough translation... > > patrick > > np - rickie lee jones, lap dog > > >THEME FOR THE POPE > > > >(MARRANTS D'EAU DOUCE) > > > >De Memphis a Nashville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:48:21 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: njc Ah nold ...ah no thanx. In a message dated 13/10/2003 04:49:31 GMT Daylight Time, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: << I wrote enough to choke a horse here on the Florida election when it was happening. I absolutely do think the left concocted the whole situation and there is plenty of evidence to prove it. Without getting into all the details again, there was something like 5 recounts and Bush kept winning. >> Surely you must know that it wasn't *just* about the recount, Kakki. It was also about the people who were removed from the electoral role well before the election. This has been widely documented, most notably by Michael Moore in the first couple of chapters of Stupid White Men. If anyone wants a quick recap, there's one on Greg Palast's site. http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=217&row=1 Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:15:06 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC Smurfsites And they are featured prominently this week on VH1's I Love the Eighties. On 10/12/03 6:34 PM, "SCJoniGuy@aol.com" wrote: > Must have been a slow newsday - an article about Smurfs making a comeback in > today's paper offers these websites: > > The official homepage: > http://www.schlumpf.com/homepage.html > > Or, find your inner Smurf: > http://www.trinitykiss.com/smurfs/ > > Bob > > NP: RLJ, "Mink Coat of the Bus Stop" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 05:23:18 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: RE: Do you remember me (njc) Hello Marilyn! Yes, of course I remember you! I've often wondered how you were doing. When is your surgery? I'll be sure to send some extra thoughts your way. I hope all goes well and I'm so sorry you have to deal with health issues (which can be a real bummer...) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:26:25 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: "Happy Thanksgiving" "HAPPY THANKSGIVING" I just wanted to wish all of you Canadians a great day today. May your plates be full, your love unending your hearts overflowing, and your health at a peak! Smoke some of the legal ganja up there and eat your hearts out. I hope Joni and her new found family are enjoying the holiday together, maybe Myrtle will catch Marlin out on the patio sneaking a smoke like Granny used to do:~) Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:29:13 EDT From: Chukchi1@aol.com Subject: question for anyone who knows How do I switch from the digest to the regular list? . Chuk, a lurker who longs to emerge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:33:36 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: Joni on others <(That is, Joni was popular, but not as popular as the greatest of the great should be).> I think it is often true that the greatest artists are often not popular. They are driven to satisfy their muse. The madman hangs in fancy homes They wouldn't let him near! Perhaps TI captures the situation better than any other song. A somewhat unacknowledged gem; musically and lyrically. No mercy Sweet Jesus! No mercy from Turbulent Indigo peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:28 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: rickie's new album njc (for AOL members) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "patrick leader" ; Enviado: domingo, 12 de octubre de 2003 23:53 Asunto: RE: rickie's new album njc > i've been listening to the songs on rickie's site. that is as close as i'll > ever be to having the cd. it will never come out in economically depressed > argentina, i can't afford to pay for it in dollars and will NEVER EVER EVER > download it. i downloaded travelogue but i could never do that to rickie. > > i think rickie is indestructible. i had tears in my eyes just to be able to > witness another rickie rebirth. > > i can't help but compare rickie's attitude with joni's on many issues. > > joni's politics: she now has rich people's problems! oh my! > > rickie: joined furniture for the people, created links on her site to > mobilize her audiences. writes her own political statements and exposes > herself fearlessly. > > joni and her fans: she will sign an autograph. she may one day acknowledge > that there is something called jonimitchell.com. she played pool with wally > breese. > > rickie: she owns her site, WRITES to fans, explains lyrics, masters bootlegs > so that fans will have a good product at a reasonable price, asks people to > send their bootlegs so that everybody will have access to everything. > > joni and other musicians: she likes edith piaff (or a french diphthong, > maybe). she likes billy holiday. and maybe laura nyro could be compared to > her. she disses everyone else. > > rickie: she periodically writes a list of everything she's currently > listening to. she praises and recommends what she likes. if she has nothing > good to say, she says nothing. > > i could go on. joni has given me her disease: bitterness. > > wally ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:51:47 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: rickie lee jones question njc (for AOL members) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "patrick leader" ; "hell" ; Enviado: lunes, 13 de octubre de 2003 11:53 Asunto: RE: rickie lee jones question njc > i'm almost finished. i'll probably need laurent's assistance on a couple of > lines. i'll send it as soon as it is ready. > love, > wally > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de patrick > > leader > > Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Octubre de 2003 06:35 p.m. > > Para: hell; Wally Kairuz; joni@smoe.org > > Asunto: RE: rickie lee jones question njc > > > > > > hey wally: > > > > i'd love a rough translation... > > > > patrick > > > > np - rickie lee jones, lap dog > > > > >THEME FOR THE POPE > > > > > >(MARRANTS D'EAU DOUCE) > > > > > >De Memphis a Nashville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:15:05 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Fw: rickie's new album njc (for AOL members) > rickie: she owns her site, WRITES to fans, explains lyrics, masters bootlegs > so that fans will have a good product at a reasonable price, asks people to > send their bootlegs so that everybody will have access to everything. I must say that I am VERY impressed with Rickie's site. I don't know if she will tour to support the new one, I'm assuming she will & hope I get the chance to see her. If not I'll be looking at her site to snag a live recording as soon as it shows up. I'm really loving this new one. As for catching Joni's disease (bitterness), you make a good point Wally. Joni is so outspoken and comes off as so bitter sometimes that it's tough for a fan who wants to support her not to adopt a similar attitude. I find myself more in the "snap out of it" camp. Bob NP: "Dance At The Gym" from West Side Story Soundtrack - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:20:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Some Joni-inspired paintings http://www.herbleonhard.com/Joni/joni.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:52:30 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: do you remember me?? Hi Marilyn, I remember you. We enjoyed dinner together at the last Jonifest held in Mass. I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Please let us know how you are doing. Donna >>> Michael Paz 10/12/2003 5:42:41 PM >>> Hi Marilyn. I rememeber you. You sat in the front for almost the whole day of sets. Sending you out good thoughts and prayers and hope your surgery goes quick and well. Take good care and keep in touch with us. Love Paz > I'm Marilyn who went to 2 jonifests in MA. Haven't been able to go to NY > because of health problems. Now I'm in rehab with oxygen 24/7 & waiting to > have open heart surgery for a birth defect. > > Hope everyone out there is fine!!! Got a new laptop so I'm back on line > again. This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:55:31 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: henry the pug (NJC) This has absolutely no Joni content whatsoever. Andrea left me her pug, Henry. Unfortunately I am not able to keep him long term. He's a nice dog, 2 years old, about 25 pounds, affectionate, good with other dogs, with AKC papers, neutered. I'm looking for a loving new home for him. I live in North Chatham, NY, about 2 1/2 hours north of NYC and 30 minutes southeast of Albany. If you, or someone you know, might be interested, let me know. I'm not looking for money for him, just a good home. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:41:19 -0400 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Re:biographies of Joni Mike Pritchard asked, ``Anybody know anything about "The Joni Mitchell Companion: Four Decades of Commentary (Companion Series)" by Stacy Luftig?`` Hi Mike, I think the Luftwig companion book is far superior to the O'Brien book . Since the Luftwig book is a collection of articles, interviews and essays (mostly pro Joni, of course), the reader gets to sample many different voices, including Joni's own voice. O'Brien's voice is not particularly interesting. The range of subjects is broader inthe Luftwig book and they are treated with more depth than in the O'Brien book. Neither book is big on gossipy biography stuff, and in both instances, Joni, the person, remains largely hidden from the reader. We are, however, given insights into Joni the musician and Joni the writer in both books. Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:03:44 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Janis Ian, NJC Date: 10/13/03 1:35:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: GRL121221 To: ANDIJUSTIS CC: HJeff36415, MaitMeltz, katepple@comcast.net, andrea@broadwaypalm.com, Meryl11, MINGSDANCE, clubwindsorcook@netzero.net Hey Jerry, I just got this from my friend Gaye who runs Club Neptunes and thought you and the list would enjoy reading it. I was in the front row that night and spoke with Janis after the show, she just hung out with the crowd and signed things for everyone. Peace Mingus just a not for you..i got a package this morning at the club..i thought this was a holiday? and inside was a note that said "janis ian dropped by the office today with her new live cd..working without a net..one of the songs on the new album was recorded at your show..she asked that we forward this advance cd to you..tim drake..hes her booking agent..also ani difrancos agent..its signed thanks club neptunes..and gaye of course..im blown away and also touched beyond belief..how cool is that! g ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:13:18 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Janis Ian, NJC How fab. We went to see Melanie last week and already got our tickets to see Janis Ian there September 21st next year. A small venue, so it should be great. Thanks for sharing. She is as nice a person as she is a great talent. Jerry On 10/13/03 2:03 PM, "MINGSDANCE@aol.com" wrote: > Date: 10/13/03 1:35:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: GRL121221 > To: ANDIJUSTIS > CC: HJeff36415, MaitMeltz, katepple@comcast.net, andrea@broadwaypalm.com, > Meryl11, MINGSDANCE, clubwindsorcook@netzero.net > > Hey Jerry, > I just got this from my friend Gaye who runs Club Neptunes and thought you > and the list would enjoy reading it. I was in the front row that night and > spoke with Janis after the show, she just hung out with the crowd and signed > things for everyone. > > Peace > Mingus > > just a not for you..i got a package this morning at the club..i thought this > was a holiday? and inside was a note that said "janis ian dropped by the > office today with her new live cd..working without a net..one of the songs on > the new album was recorded at your show..she asked that we forward this > advance cd to you..tim drake..hes her booking agent..also ani difrancos > agent..its signed thanks club neptunes..and gaye of course..im blown away > and also touched beyond belief..how cool is that! g ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:48:06 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: njc Felon voting rights Thanks for giving your sources, Azeem. I read the article and don't believe most of it. I did one follow-up search and found a more balanced assessment from the Washington Post here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/feb99/felons22.htm One of the lies from Palast/Michael Moore is that most states do not bar felons from voting. Here is an excerpt from the Post: "Rates of disenfranchisement vary widely from state to state. In 46 states and the District of Columbia, felons are prohibited from voting while in prison. In addition, 32 states prohibit offenders from voting while on parole and 29 bar voting while on probation. Felons are barred for life from voting in 14 states, a prohibition that can be waived only through a gubernatorial pardon or some other form of clemency. Only four states -- Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont -- allow prison inmates to vote." Also see in the Post article that Jeb Bush himself supported a bill in Florida as far back as early 1999 that would allow felons to regain their voting rights automatically one year after they complete their sentences, including probation. Another lie I strongly suspect is that Florida did not already have a reliable database of felons in that state and had to hire out to a firm who used dubious methods. These records are usually kept in court databases. I've searched on them in many states for years. I can't imagine Florida did not have such a database until a few months before the 2000 election. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:01:49 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: education for illegal immigrants njc (from our earlier recall discussion) Kate wrote: > however there are plenty of people paying taxes who do not have kids in > school...i still vote on education bond issues when i think it will better > the schools even though i no longer have kids in school...the cost to the > community & state & society as a whole of not providing affordable higher > education to students (legal or illegal) is imo much higher... Of course, and I think most people agree they will pay the taxes whether or not they have children themselves because it benefits society and the future generation coming up. > in reality they are not paying any taxes as most students generally qualify > as exempt because they are not making enough income...they only have to > establish residency a year prior to enrollment to qualify for the reduced > fees...except for that year when they may be working at low income jobs, > there is no difference between out of state students & illegal residents as > far as what they are contributing into the system... But their parents in other states are at least paying Federal, State and other taxes whereas the undocumented parents are not. I'd imagine many of the children of undocumented workers ARE citizens if they were born in the U.S. So they would have as much right as other citizens or legal residents to scholarships, loans, grants, etc. The bigger picture is that their parents are not paying into the system. Wouldn't it be better if the parents were made legal and had employment, workers comp, MediCal, Social Security and other taxes paid in by their employers, and made a minimum or higher wage? If they stay low income they are not going to have to pay much if any taxes anyway, but at least their employers are paying something for them and they are not "off the books" as they are now. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:16:41 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: njc Felon voting rights Quoting kakki : > > > One of the lies from Palast/Michael Moore is that most states do not > bar > felons from voting. If only 14 states bar felons for life from voting, I can't see how the above statement is a lie. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:24:36 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: njc Felon voting rights In a message dated 13/10/2003 20:53:42 GMT Daylight Time, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: << One of the lies from Palast/Michael Moore is that most states do not bar felons from voting. Here is an excerpt from the Post: "Rates of disenfranchisement vary widely from state to state. In 46 states and the District of Columbia, felons are prohibited from voting while in prison. In addition, 32 states prohibit offenders from voting while on parole and 29 bar voting while on probation. Felons are barred for life from voting in 14 states, a prohibition that can be waived only through a gubernatorial pardon or some other form of clemency. Only four states -- Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont -- allow prison inmates to vote." >> There is probably no point in continuing this correspondence Kakki, as we will never agree. Whatever any of us says, someone somewhere will have written something that purports to refute it. However, I will say that this extract from your post above does give me an indication of where you're coming from. You talk about "one of the lies" from palast Moore, implying that there are several, while saying that you "don't believe" most of the article. Fine, you don't believe it, you don't say why (my personal take is that you don't want to believe it), but I'm afraid that doesn't make it a lie. Even the specific example you quote as a "lie" is most certainly not a lie. The statistics are clear. Only 14 states completely bar felons from voting, which is just over a quarter. Wouldn't you agree that most states therefore do not permanently bar felons from voting? I understand that you might choose to interpret the stats differently, in that a majority of states don't allow felons to vote *in certain circumstances*, but to call Greg Palast a liar on that basis is completely untenable. You presumably consider Palast and Michael Moore to be completely biased. Just don't exclude yourself from that charge. I don't claim to be unbiased. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:01:16 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: education for illegal immigrants njc (from our earlier recall discussion) since we were (originally) talking about state funding, my point was that out of state students & their parents are not paying anything into the state system but they are allowed to receive their education at state resident prices...which is fine with me...its just that my point was relative to the argument that some make that illegal residents should not receive the same price breaks... on the big picture level it is my belief that we have an amazing higher education system in this state that is the envy of many...& the credo of the california community college system (which is the first step for many) has always been to provide an affordable & high quality education for residents who want it (& they make it easy to be a resident)... here is the way it works now: "California law (AB540) provides for students who meet the criteria to be considered as residents for tuition purposes. This applies to students who may be an alien without lawful immigration status, as well as to students who have moved out of state and subsequently return to California. Students must have attended a California high school for three or more years and have graduated from such high school or have attained the equivalent, such as a High School Equivilency Certificate (GED) or Certificate of Proficiency (CHSPE)." absolutely it would be best for parents to become legalized...(i'm not sure of the details of how long this takes or how difficult it is these days but i do know that in santa barbara the community college system (through the adult education program) works hard to provides people with the information & classes on how to do so which is yet another great service... here is the link http://ce.sbcc.edu/irca.htm >But their parents in other states are at least paying Federal, State and other taxes whereas the undocumented parents are not. I'd imagine many of the children of undocumented workers ARE citizens if they were born in the U.S. So they would have as much right as other citizens or legal residents to scholarships, loans, grants, etc. The bigger picture is that their parents are not paying into the system. Wouldn't it be better if the parents were made legal and had employment, workers comp, MediCal, Social Security and other taxes paid in by their employers, and made a minimum or higher wage? If they stay low income they are not going to have to pay much if any taxes anyway, but at least their employers are paying something for them and they are not "off the books" as they are now. Kakki< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:59:37 EDT From: Chukchi1@aol.com Subject: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) I'm new to the list and alarmed (and disgusted) that the first post I opened is one stuffed with right wing double think and illogic. If you don't believe something you read the person who wrote it is a liar? Wow. Now that's intellectually rigorous. To everyone else, hello Chuk In a message dated 10/13/03 2:53:42 PM, kakkib@vzavenue.net writes: >One of the lies from Palast/Michael Moore is that most states do not bar > >felons from voting. > > > >Here is an excerpt from the Post: > > > >"Rates of disenfranchisement vary widely from state to state. In 46 states > >and the District of Columbia, felons are prohibited from voting while in > >prison. In addition, 32 states prohibit offenders from voting while on > >parole and 29 bar voting while on probation. Felons are barred for life >from > >voting in 14 states, a prohibition that can be waived only through a > >gubernatorial pardon or some other form of clemency. Only four states -- > >Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont -- allow prison inmates >to > >vote." > > > >Also see in the Post article that Jeb Bush himself supported a bill in > >Florida as far back as early 1999 that would allow felons to regain their > >voting rights automatically one year after they complete their sentences, > >including probation. > > > >Another lie I strongly suspect is that Florida did not already have a > >reliable database of felons in that state and had to hire out to a firm >who > >used dubious methods. These records are usually kept in court databases. > >I've searched on them in many states for years. I can't imagine Florida >did > >not have such a database until a few months before the 2000 election. > > > >Kakki > > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >Return-Path: >Received: from rly-xl05.mx.aol.com (rly-xl05.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.74]) >by air-xl04.mail.aol.com (v96.8) with ESMTP id MAILINXL41-5d43f8b02ae22; >Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:53:41 -0400 >Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [199.201.145.78]) by rly-xl05.mx.aol.com >(v96.8) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXL52-5d43f8b02ae22; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:53:18 >-0400 >Received: from smoe.org (ident-user@localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by smoe.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9DJqbi7000259 > for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) >Received: (from majordom@localhost) > by smoe.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9DJqbdp000258 > for joni-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) >X-Authentication-Warning: smoe.org: majordom set sender to owner-joni@jmdl.com >using -f >Received: from smtp.vzavenue.net (smtp.vzavenue.net [66.171.59.140]) by > smoe.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9DJqWi7000239 for > ; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:52:33 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from hppav (11.51.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net > [66.171.51.11] (may be forged)) by smtp.vzavenue.net (Mirapoint > Messaging Server MOS 3.2.4-GA) with SMTP id AXK29996; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 > 15:46:17 -0400 (EDT) >Message-ID: <000901c391c2$eda062a0$0b33ab42@hppav> >From: "kakki" >To: , >References: >Subject: Re: njc Felon voting rights >Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:48:06 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 >X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on > jane.smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:10:48 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) Hi Chuk, and welcome to the proper list...maybe as a way of an intro you can tell us when you first "discovered" Joni, if you've seen her in concert, etc., and maybe even throw in if you've ever done any voting as a felon! ;~) Bob NP(Now Playing): War, "Summer" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:06:43 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Anyone written a novel lately? No politics (rah!) No Joni either (boo!) njc One of my projects for November is to write an entire novel. Anyone else gonna go for this?? Here's the site that piqued my interest: www.nanowrimo.org Azeem in London NP: David Bowie - Reality ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:52:32 EDT From: Chukchi1@aol.com Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) I vacillate as to what is my favorite Joni recording. I have 9 that place at number 1 at any given time. While one holds the top spot the others are never in second place. Kinda weird I suppose. But that is how I work it. In order of release my number one Joni would be Joni Mitchell (Song to a Seagull) Ladies of the Canyon Blue Court and Spark The Hissing of Summer Lawns Hejira Don Juan's' Reckless Daughter Mingus Turbulent Indigo The rest I listen to less often though I love all of them. The ones I listed I listen to all the time. I have seen Joni only twice. I feel very sorry for myself about that. I saw Laura Nyro only once before she died. Again, puling self pity. Other than Joni I love the music of Charles Mingus (probably wouldn't have found Ah Um were not for JM), John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Art Blakey, Lauren Hill who is as close to as talented as Joni as I have ever seen anyone get, and others, many others. I also listen to a lot of classical and baroque music and more and more I listen to R&B and hip hop I am 45, female and would vote for Count Dracula before ever voting for anyone named Bush for any public office. Thanks for your words of welcome. In a message dated 10/13/03 4:21:59 PM, cvickery%DANIELREALTY@danielrealty.com writes: >we can't agree on joni's albums, either. just wait 'til the >darned "Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm" lovers get fired up and start >spouting *that* party line! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:19:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) Very diplomatic of you. If you join a list and read one post by someone you know nothing about on a fairly meaningless topic (within the context of the list) you're immediately alarmed and disgusted and then simultaneously insult them while introducing yourself? Wow. How considerate. Victor I'm new to the list and alarmed (and disgusted) that the first post I opened is one stuffed with right wing double think and illogic. If you don't believe something you read the person who wrote it is a liar? Wow. Now that's intellectually rigorous. To everyone else, hello Chuk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:12:42 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) Chuk wrote: > I'm new to the list and alarmed (and disgusted) that the first post I opened > is one stuffed with right wing double think and illogic. > > If you don't believe something you read the person who wrote it is a liar? > Wow. Now that's intellectually rigorous. > > To everyone else, hello > Chuk I'm disgusted, to use that intellectually rigorous word, by your statements here. Your statements were directed at Kakki, one of the most intellectually rigorous and fair minded individuals I have ever encountered. Her views do tend to go to the right. So what? She has as much right to express them as anyone else and does so without rancor towards anyone, unlike your post. And, the biggest fault of your nasty post is saying hello to everyone but her. She absolutely has enriched my life with her posts, with who she is, and her presence here. Furthermore, I disagree with about 95% of her political views but choose her over my views on politics. You owe her an apology. And please trim your posts. mack np: gino vanelli-inconsolable man ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:44:35 -0400 From: Subject: Subject: do you remember me?? Hi again, Marilyn. Sure I remember you. At the '01 JoniFest in Newburyport, MA you wore a blue dress, right? While you're doing rehab, you can catch up on your Joni lore. Start with Leonard Feather's correct-thinking-rave on MINGUS in downbeat magazine at http://www.jonimitchell.com/downbeat79.html When you're ready for the finest collection of Joni articles on the web, go to Les' site: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/ If you missed the PBS special in the "American Masters Series", dedicated to Joni, you can see the Simon-powered timeline at: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mitchell_j_timeline_flash.html That's where I learned what Brad McMath's goodbye note said. :) Catch some clips of the special at: http://www.cbc.ca/lifeandtimes/mitchell.html and http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mitchell_j_footage.html By this time, you'll have to *OWN* the damn thing so go to http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/B000096FTI/all/ref=dp_pb_a/104-6798867-8718342 and price both new AND used copies. If you want some more contact with JMDL, I recommend the JoniNortheast list. I'm not sure how to get on it though because if you go to www.groups.yahoo.com and type in NortheastJonifest it tells you there's no such list. The site says you sub*scribe by sending an email to NortheastJonifest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com After reading all of this, you deserve a reward. As a get-well I'll make the JMDL video collection of out-of-print videos, tv appearances, etc. If you don't already have it, send me your street address and I'll get it going as soon as I finish the set for Micheal O. Still want more? You can see pictures of the JoniFests that you missed in 02 and 03 at Full Moon Central at Chris' site: www.hatstand.org/gallery I included the '01 panorama as the next-to-last image in my collection of performances from this year. You're there- right where you belong- among your friends- in your blue dress. Which brings us full-circle, eh? That's my favorite cheap-Lit trick. All the best, Lama [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of zz_2001Panorama_of_Newburyport_Church.sized.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:43:06 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: New to list (was Re: njc Felon voting rights) In a message dated 13/10/2003 22:23:51 GMT Daylight Time, Chukchi1@aol.com writes: << I'm new to the list and alarmed (and disgusted) that the first post I opened is one stuffed with right wing double think and illogic. If you don't believe something you read the person who wrote it is a liar? Wow. Now that's intellectually rigorous. To everyone else, hello Chuk >> I'm not the first person to say this, and probably won't be the last, Chuk: this is a REALLY SHITE way to introduce yourself to the list. Talk about diving in with both feet. And yes, I am one of the people engaged in a political argument/discussion with Kakki. It hasn't yet included any snide sarcasm or melodramatic expressions of alarm and disgust, and we will keep it that way, I'm sure. You may be used to lists where insults and invective are routinely traded - for the most part, thankfully, this one isn't like that. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:48:36 -0400 From: Subject: Miranda: more than 70 hits?! I guess Mag's daughter is kinda the JoniFest 2003 calendar girl or something. More than 70 people have clicked on the that particular thumbnail to see the full-sided image. http://www.hatstand.org/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album26&id=FR_Miranda_Welcome_Gathering_Lama_Kiron That's more than ten TIMES the number of people who wanted to see my placid pond picture! Mags, I finally got some prints made for ya. Maybe she should be modeling to put herself through college? All the best, Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:06:55 -0400 From: Subject: biographies of Joni Hi Mike, I love it when people ask me how to spend their money. :) My advice is to read JJ's web site's bio first. Then read Les'es articles. As a soundtrack, you can get the PazFest set at cdbaby.com Proceeds provide relief to Honduran children who are burn survivors. It's the only place to get live tracks from the Bryan Thomas Band. If you still have to have something in print, get Karen O'Brien's book. Not only does she give credit to our own Simon, Bob Muller, and JJ, but she also took the time to make some additions for the Second Printing. Her book is unique in that it has a really useful index and her research is carefully documented. But since I'm ordering you around, start with the PazFest set. It's $22 (USD) for 22 tracks. That's the cost of downloads alone. Why, the back cover photo alone is worth that.... :| All the best, Lama [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of pazfest.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:29:26 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Fw: rickie's new album njc (for AOL members) > I must say that I am VERY impressed with Rickie's site. I don't know > if she will tour to support the new one, I'm assuming she will & hope > I get the chance to see her. If not I'll be looking at her site to > snag a live recording as soon as it shows up. I'm really loving this > new one. \ From www.rickieleejones.com Note November 20. I am a happy camper. 2003 Concerts The New Yorker presents RICKIE LEE JONES and her band in a benefit concert hosted by New Yorker staff writer, Hilton Als. An evening of music & conversation to celebrate the release, on V2 Records of THE EVENING of MY BEST DAY an unforgettable evening in an unforgettable setting. Net proceeds will benefit Furniture for the People, an online web community founded by Rickie Lee Jones which helps alleviate the suffering of orphaned children and is dedicated to good works, good music and free speech. Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - doors 7 P.M. . show 8 P.M. The Angel Orensanz Foundation 172 Norfolk Street New York City tickets: $25 TICKETS ON SALE NOW! Tickets now available online through at ticketweb.com, or by phone: call 1-866-468-7619. For more information about this event, please visit newyorker.com. confirmed shows and venues: 11/2 Rochester, New Hampshire at the Opera House 11/3 Sommerville, Massachusetts at the Sommerville Theatre 11/5 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at the Palace Theatre 11/6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at the Keswick Theatre 11/7 New York, New York at the Town Hall 11/9 Washington, DC at the Lisner Theatre 11/10 Columbus, Ohio at the Southern Theatre 11/12 Toronto, Ontario at the Phoenix Theatre 11/13 Chicago, Illinois at the Chicago Theatre or the Park West 11/14 Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theatre 11/15 Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Fitzgerald Theatre 11/20 Seattle, Washington at the Moore Theatre 11/21 Portland, Oregon at the Aladdin Theatre 11/22 Vancouver, British Columbia at the Vogue Theatre 11/24 San Francisco, California at the Palace of Fine Arts 11/25 Los Angeles, California at the Wilshire Theatre tentative shows and venues: 11/17 Lawrence, Kansas or Kansas City, Missouri, venue TBA 11/18 Denver, Colorado at the Gothic Theatre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:32:55 EDT From: CoyoteRick@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs Linda In a message dated 10/12/2003 7:44:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, PassScribe@aol.com writes: > Was she a bigger star than Joni? Yes, maybe during their prime and in > terms of "hits" or airplay but, in the long run, Joni will be remembered as > the > creative influence to many other artists and will have the more dedicated > fan > base such as this one we're sharing. > Now me: I think Kenny makes some good points in this paragraph. JM will be remembered as more of an artist, while Linda will be remembered as one heck of a singer. Linda was huge in the 1974 - 1980 era and I think was much more popular among the masses than JM. Linda's albums in that period -- Heart Like a Wheel, Prisoner in Disguise, Hasten Down the Wind, Simple Dreams, Living in the USA, and Mad Love were the apex of her musical recording era -- but that's a lot of years with albums coming each year or thereabouts and I'd assume charting very highly. Not to mention her well-publicized "friendship" with then CA Governor Jerry Brown and her major arena tours. Linda was very big. Still is in my eyes! Having said all that, during part of that era, I was living in Tucson (her home town) while a student at the U of A -- so my circles may have been more into Linda than the rest of the world. I think a lot of it is the folks you are hanging with that leaves the impression of how "big" an artist was in history. JM for me and my circle was not that "huge." My friends of course had heard of her, frequently got her confused with Judy Collins (I have always had to correct that) and related her to C&S (Help Me) but not much before or after that album and single. The artists of her day (and now) along with those in more sophisticated musical circles (like Kate surely was) were probably much more intimate with and admiring of JM's music than others that were more into accessible Pop 40 types of artists with strings of hit records. (Lord, excuse that sentence structure!) C&S made me a major fan. Coyote Rick Casa Alegre Hollywood, California "Only fools are afraid to be burned by fire..." ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #514 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)