From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #510 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, October 11 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 510 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: was test njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Welcome Back Evian NJC [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] joni mention. ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: NJC Godspell NJC ["Sherelle Smith" ] RE: Johnny Cash njc ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: The Tea Leaf Prophecy, liner notes on ["J.David Sapp" ] T'log - B'log [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] a question about the Geffen box set...again [Warrenkeith91354@aol.com] a question about the Geffen box set [Warrenkeith91354@aol.com] cal & fla njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Johnny Cash njc ["Sherelle Smith" ] NJC - If you have nothing to hide...... (Warning: Political Content) ["Cy] Klein & Joni [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: cal & fla njc [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Klein & Joni ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Klein & Joni [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #311 Now NYC Songwriters ["ron" ] Re: cal & fla njc ["gene mock" ] Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles NJC ["Brenda" ] Re: Joni and the other Girls ["Brenda" ] does it really matter [HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com] Re: Study War no More [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: study war no more njc [Doug ] Re: study war no more njc [vince ] Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] Neil Young and altered tuning [ash ] Re: study war no more njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] bad english in music njc [vince ] Today in History: October 11 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:47:54 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: was test njc In a message dated 10/10/2003 2:12:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, evian@sasktel.net writes: > So people, fill me in on > the gossip of the list - leave nothing out! Well Evian, since you've been gone making babies, Bob Murphy and Susan Guzzi are having an affair. :~) Good to see you posting again you Tito Jackson wannabe! Happy Friday everyone! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:08:06 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Welcome Back Evian NJC Hi Evian, and a big welcome back to you! Yes, I'm sluttier than ever, and we are in the middle of slut season right now as everyone seems to be coming out of the woodwork with new & great stuff, including Fleetwood Mac...I can't get over how much I'm digging "Say You Will", like it so much that I barely noticed Christine wasn't on it. Stevie sounds great, and Lindsey's production, guitar and songs are as catchy as can be. Looking forward to seeing you jump back into the fray! Enjoy your computer time, as it won't be long before your kids take it over completely. PS: I've had to sub using my work addy...here @ work they've blocked all yahoo, hotmail, and now AOL connections. But SCJoniguy@aol.com is still working, I just can't access it here, at least for the time being. Bob (and yes I still do NP's): NP: Snuffy Walden, "Begging For Sex, Pt. 2" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:32:13 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: joni mention. Here's one that all should get some enjoyment out of as not only it is ludicrous but wholly untrue, even to someone that isn't a joniphyte. Out of the Sheboygan paper and the writer isn't identified. Jackson Browne, the quintessential sensitive Californian singer-songwriter of the early 70's brings his show to the Riverside Theater in Milwaukee at 7:30 p.m. on Monday, October 13. Only Joni Mitchell and James Taylor ranked alongside Browne in terms of influence, but neither artist tapped into the post-60's zeitgeist like Browne. While the majority of his classic 70's work was unflinchingly personal, it nevertheless provided a touchstone for a generation of maturing baby boomers coming to terms with adulthood. Not only did his introspective, literate lyrics strike a nerve, but his laid-back folk-rock set the template for much of the music to come out of California during the 70's. During the 70's and early 80's, he was at the height of his popularity, as each of his albums charted in the Top 10. Midway through the 80's, Browne made a series of political protest records which caused his audience to gradually shrink, but when he returned to introspective songwriting with 1993's 'I'm Alive', he made a modest comeback. hehehhehehehheh. I was there at that time and I must have missed most of that. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:13:43 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: NJC Godspell NJC You're on for all good gifts! Thanks Mark! Love, Sherelle >From: "Mark or Travis" >To: "Sherelle Smith" , >CC: >Subject: Re: NJC Godspell NJC >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:53:09 -0700 > >Sherelle Smith wrote: > > Oh Bob! "All Good Gifts" is one of my favorite songs! I used to sing > > it all the time! > > > > Love, Sherelle > > > >I agree with Bob. I would *love* to hear you sing this song, >Sherelle! And I think you would tear up 'O Bless the Lord' as well. > >Mark > > _________________________________________________________________ Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:06:00 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: Johnny Cash njc Yes! Yes! Yes Catherine! Both my husband and I are blown away by the song and the video, "Hurt". The very first time I heard it, I was floored at the simple poetic beauty of it and howJohnny put a summary of his life on film. It was so beautifully frank and honest. I am also touched that Johnny could always see a person's soul and where they were coming from. As a Christian, he did not try to remake or redo the words; he found merit in what was already written and interpreted it as man's plight and struggle to find him/herself. I heard a little of his version of Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus". It had more of a folk flavor to it from what I could tell. You made me start my CD wish-list finally! Johnny is at the top of it right now. It's funny that I didn't put Joni on the list because I am so happy wi th the works I already have of her. For some reason, I don't always feel pressed to purchase her newer material. I'm not sure if I'm afraid to or not. Turbelent Indigo was my last favorite purchase. I treasure that CD! Even though I treasure anything Joni, I don't listen to Taming the Tiger as much, but I'm not sure why. Joni has so much great material that sometimes, I feel satiated with it all. Thanks for writing about Johnny Cash. I just feel honored to hear his last recording efforts. He really contributed something to this world. Sincerely, Sherelle Catherine wrote: Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:30:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Finn Subject: Johnny Cash njc "Joan shows GREAT taste in modern songwriters on this CD...Greg Brown, Steve Earle, Joe Henry, Ryan Adams, 2 from Gillian Welch/David Rawlings, Caitlin Cary, Natalie Merchant...I don't know if she picked these out or if somebody gathered them up for her, but either way I'm impressed. She has her ear to the ground in terms of modern-day writers, moreso than her contemporaries who shall remain nameless." Have you heard Johnny Cash's last album? He does a cover of a 9-Inch Nails song "Hurt." The original comes off as stock 90s whine-rock. In the hands of the man in black, it is a chilling story of an old man reflecting back at the end of his life. The video is also incredible. He also covers Depeche Mode and the Beatles, among others. Absolutely astounding. I'm going to listen to it when I get home! The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:13:16 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: The Tea Leaf Prophecy, liner notes on <. . .and then: "She plants her garden in the spring She does the winter shoveling< Notice the way this chorus changes to reflect the passage of time and circumstance: She plants her garden in the spring She does the winter shovelling Tokyo Rose on the radio /// She plants her garden in the spring He does the winter shovelling But summer's just a sneeze In a long long bad winter cold /// She plants her garden in the spring He does the winter shovelling The three of 'em laughing 'round the radio /// She plants her garden in the spring They do the winter shovelling They sit up late and watch the Johnny Carson show peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:38:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Finn Subject: RE: Johnny Cash njc I agree with you about new Joni material. I was disappointed with Travelogue. It mostly just makes me crave the original versions. Larry Klein might have been a positive influence on Joni's personal life, but I'm not crazy about his influence on her music. I do have to complete the process of replacing old vinyls with cds. LOTC and FTR are next on my list. From what I've read here, I'll probably pass on the Geffen box. If she would release a complete box set, that would be my Christmas list. (Last year my brother-in-law got me the new release of the Rolling Thunder Review recordings. He said he knew the only risk was that I already had, and not whether I would like it!) Sherelle Smith wrote: It's funny that I didn't put Joni on the list because I am so happy wi th the works I already have of her. For some reason, I don't always feel pressed to purchase her newer material. I'm not sure if I'm afraid to or not. Turbelent Indigo was my last favorite purchase. I treasure that CD! Even though I treasure anything Joni, I don't listen to Taming the Tiger as much, but I'm not sure why. Joni has so much great material that sometimes, I feel satiated with it all. The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:53:34 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: T'log - B'log I found this Blog review on T'log today, and thought the writer (a huge Joni fan) put my feelings about this release into a thoughtful review: http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/surfdomarchives/000504.php Bob NP: Queen, "Doin' Alright" (Peel Sessions) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:19:25 EDT From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: a question about the Geffen box set...again Sorry about the misfire...I'm a bit trigger happy lately ! I just want to know where the rare photos from the DED and NRH sessions are...somebody...anybody ? Jonily Yours, Warren Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:14:20 EDT From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: a question about the Geffen box set ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:30:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: cal & fla njc okay, i'm trying my best to be postive & hopeful but this is a NOT helping me...call me paranoid but this is too close for comfort (remembering how jeb purged the voter roles a year prior to the 2000 elections)...not to mention the lawsuit the state of california has against enron... "Schwarzenegger named an independent auditor to investigate the size and scope of California's budget deficit...Donna Arduin, who is on loan from Gov. Jeb Bush's administration in Florida where she is budget director, has pledged to complete her work by January when Schwarzenegger is required to submit a spending plan." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/15/politics/main573174.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:25:23 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: Johnny Cash njc I think I need to research more about Larry Klein's influence on Joni's music. I'm not sure what CD's are involved in the Klein/Mitchell era. If Turblent Indigo was part of the era, that would have to be an exception to the rule because I really like that one. I will probably pass on the Geffen Box Set until I get a little richer-then I'm getting every single thing she's ever done! :) Sherelle >From: Catherine Finn >To: Sherelle Smith >CC: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: Johnny Cash njc >Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:38:39 -0700 (PDT) > >I agree with you about new Joni material. I was disappointed with >Travelogue. It mostly just makes me crave the original versions. Larry >Klein might have been a positive influence on Joni's personal life, but I'm >not crazy about his influence on her music. > >I do have to complete the process of replacing old vinyls with cds. LOTC >and FTR are next on my list. From what I've read here, I'll probably pass >on the Geffen box. If she would release a complete box set, that would be >my Christmas list. (Last year my brother-in-law got me the new release of >the Rolling Thunder Review recordings. He said he knew the only risk was >that I already had, and not whether I would like it!) >The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:16:24 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: NJC - If you have nothing to hide...... (Warning: Political Content) Nothing personal. I just don't want to have deep and troubling suspicions about my friends, that's all. I'll be watching. http://www.moveon.org/affidavit/ Love, Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:52:35 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Klein & Joni Subject: Re: cal & fla njc On 10/10/03 2:30 PM, "Kate Bennett" wrote: > okay, i'm trying my best to be postive & hopeful but this is a NOT helping > me...call me paranoid but this is too close for comfort (remembering how jeb > purged the voter roles a year prior to the 2000 elections)...not to mention > the lawsuit the state of california has against enron... > > "Schwarzenegger named an independent auditor to investigate the size and > scope of California's budget deficit...Donna Arduin, who is on loan from > Gov. Jeb Bush's administration in Florida where she is budget director, has > pledged to complete her work by January when Schwarzenegger is required to > submit a spending plan." > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/15/politics/main573174.shtml > Oh Lord. You don't even want to ask this Floridian what he thinks of this. Just a taste from the St. Petersburg Times, remembering these are fellow Republicans complaining about her: THE BUDGET: The governor and legislature, who promised not to raise taxes, are depending on the sales tax revenue to pay for the huge bills coming next year. TIMES DEPUTY CAPITAL BUREAU CHIEF E-mail: Click here Archive By STEVE BOUSQUET, Times Staff Writer ) St. Petersburg Times published February 16, 2003 TALLAHASSEE -- Gov. Jeb Bush's budget director flipped on her laptop and began a power-point display, not with fuzzy graphs or charts but with a firm declaration. Florida is in good shape, flashed the message on overhead TV screens. Budget director Donna Arduin ticked off factors supporting her claim: Stable bond ratings, lots of new jobs, more tax money and the "fiscal discipline" to avoid tax increases. States with higher taxes are in worse shape, she said. The members of the Senate Appropriations Committee were not impressed. Their chairman, Republican Sen. Ken Pruitt, R-Port St. Lucie, called the scene at the hearing on Feb. 6 "surreal," as if Arduin and lawmakers were in different states. To Pruitt and many other senators, Florida is in bad shape and getting worse. They are again studying how to change the tax code to raise more money, citing Bush's budget as proof that the tax base can't pay for such basics as teachers at community colleges. The crux of the debate is whether Florida's sales tax meets the needs of the nation's fourth-largest state. The basic source of taxation is the sales tax, first imposed in 1949 as a 3 percent levy. It is now 6 percent statewide and as high as 7.5 percent in counties where voters have approved higher taxes for schools, roads or health care. Critics say sales taxes, based on consumption, are regressive because poor people pay a larger share of their income on taxable items than wealthy people do. But the sales tax is Florida's fiscal workhorse. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:41:34 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Klein & Joni You are absolutely right Bob! I can see the curve. Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to hear many if any songs from this era so it's hard for me to compare. My relationship with Joni's music had been temporarily severed. I feel that I discovered her at a great time in 1975 with Court and Spark and Hissing of Summer Lawns. Speaking to someone who hasn't heard these albums yet, what exactly was Larry Klein's role musically in these songs? Did he write the music or did he share those duties with Joni? Are the lyrics different from say, Court and Spark or Hissing? Thanks. Sherelle >From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com >To: "Sherelle Smith" >CC: catiefinn@yahoo.com, joni@smoe.org, owner-joni@jmdl.com >Subject: Klein & Joni >Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:52:35 -0400 > > > >It's sort of an interesting bell curve...the peak of the "Klein/Mitchell >era" was DED/CMIARS. His first appearance was on WTRF, he just played bass >(prior to teaming up with Joni he was the bassist in jazz trumpeter Freddie >Hubbard's band), by DED he had (2) co-writing credits (Fiction, Tax Free) >was a co-producer, and played bass, percussion, keyboards, and synths, and >contributed vocals. CMIARS contains (4) Klein-Mitchell songs and again he >co-produces and plays several instruments and vocals. NRH (called by many >as a return to form for Joni) only features (1) Klein-Mitchell song, and he >continues co-production and multi-instruments. By the Grammy-award winning >TI, there are no more song collaborations, and his role is reduced to bass >& co-producer. > >You can draw your own conclusions from all of this...I've always contended >that Joni compromised her work by allowing the collaboration from her >then-current spouse, for better or for worse depending on how one views the >4 Geffen releases. > >Bob > >NP: Laura Love, "I Am Wondering" (live on KINK radio) > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The information transmitted is intended only for the person >or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential >and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient >of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, >retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any >action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you >received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the >material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message >are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect >the views of the company. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________________ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:05:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Klein & Joni Strictly from a songwriting point of view, my understanding is that he wrote the music and she wrote the words. In the 1985 Rock Master Class interview/recording, she talks about their collaboration and how it was different for her to put words to his short musical phrasings in Tax Free & Fiction. Typically her musical lines run much longer and are much more multi-syllabic (even after Bob Sartorius makes his cuts). ;~) Well, the style is certainly different...look first at the brevity in "Fiction": I can't decide I don't know Which way to go The options multiply The choices grow Which way to go? What should I buy? What should I be? Which way to go? And then look at the stanza length in a song from Hissing: Rousseau walks on trumpet paths Safaris to the heart of all that jazz Through I-bars and girders, through wires and pipes The mathematic circuits of the modern nights Through huts through Harlem through jails and gospel pews Through the class on Park and the trash on Vine Through Europe and the deep deep heart of Dixie blue Through savage progress cuts the jungle line And it's pretty easy to see that lyrically the 70's songs are typically going to be more dense. You might say that she's given a larger canvas in which to paint. Of course this is not to say that one is BETTER than the other, only that the styles are different. A good writer can say just as much with a few words as they can with many, sort of a Hemingway vs. Faulkner argument. Hope that gives you some idea...it is tricky to get a grasp on the difference without being familiar with the songs I'm sure. Bob NP: The Chieftains, "Rattlin' Roarin' Willie" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:29:18 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #311 Now NYC Songwriters hi >>>>paul wrote > To tell you the truth, I think none of the eighties women songwriters were > in Joni's league, except maybe Michelle Shocked, who came close. & whats this past tense thing??? 'chelle is still alive & well & writing. cranked out 30 songs in 30 days in 99/2000(???) for a series of shows - together with fiachna of hothouse flowers. well, ok there were a couple duds amongst them, but there were some good 'uns as well: "a burden shared, is only half a trouble i knew you'd care, i knew you'd understand a burden shared, is only half a trouble, joy thats shared, is joy made double" well you really have to hear it to get it - its a stunner with all of 'chelles emotional strength & power........ & the re released "short sharp shocked" is great as well - a whole disc full of previously unreleased tracks, indluding her mind blowing acapella "ballad of penny evans" and a wonderful live version of "memories of east texas" which is a terrific example of "less is more" - so deceptively simple, yet so haunting and provocative - michelle at the top of her game!! ron no - lisa loeb - the way it really is ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:35:03 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: joni's byt on SNL sketch njc hi >>>>>bree wrote > I laughed when I read this. I do the same thing... can't change the channel fast enough. Believe it or not there was a time when I kind of liked Springer? Not only was he once the mayor of Cincinnati..he also did really good common sense commetary on one of our local news channels. WHAT HAPPENED?!! mmm i think jerry is wondering that himself!! we had him do a season of talk shows here with local celebrity guests, as a charity fundraising exercise, and hes actually pretty good when hes dealing with real people. he also seems to poke fun at his us (or should that be u/s??) show and the people on it pretty regularly. i guess his ultimate put down was inviting some of our local "celebs" to appear on that show!?!?!?!? ron np lisa loeb - what am i supposed to say ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:10:48 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: cal & fla njc hello kate, quite frankly i'm pretty damn scared. maybe it's good that someone like arnold became governor, maybe that will start to put the "fear of god" in some of these people in sacramento. i have no doubt that arnold is going to cut taxes-------------i'm just worried how many people are going to be affected. how many programs for the young, old, homeless, law enforcement, fire protection, environmental protection and projects for cities/counties will be deeply affected. all in the name of saving the california taxpayer and fostering business in california. it seems like a lot of people don't understand why "illegals" get to have educational/health benefits normally reserved for california citizens. the funding for educational/health benefits come from taxpayers. the last time i heard, if you get a payroll check you get taxed. if they paid their taxes then they deserved the benefit. fostering business in california has very little to do w/ our rules and regulations. yes, some of the rules/regulations do hurt small businesses and their should be a change. what's hurting califonia businesses is the rampant contracting of service and manufacturing jobs offshore---to other countries that have lower labor standards and costs. yeah! i'm a little scared-----------take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: "Joni@Smoe. Org" Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: cal & fla njc > okay, i'm trying my best to be postive & hopeful but this is a NOT helping > me...call me paranoid but this is too close for comfort (remembering how jeb > purged the voter roles a year prior to the 2000 elections)...not to mention > the lawsuit the state of california has against enron... > > "Schwarzenegger named an independent auditor to investigate the size and > scope of California's budget deficit...Donna Arduin, who is on loan from > Gov. Jeb Bush's administration in Florida where she is budget director, has > pledged to complete her work by January when Schwarzenegger is required to > submit a spending plan." > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/15/politics/main573174.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:22:41 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles NJC On 8 Oct 2003 at 11:20, Kate Bennett wrote: > eeww that song annoyed the heck out of me...here is my 2 cents > compared to brenda's $200 but i am not sure if she's hanging out > here...record companies pay to get their songs on the radio so i think > this has something to do with it... > > bob >I've been noticing this for the last 5+ years. It didn't used to > be that way. I have no idea why it's that way now. I first started > noticing this when Cher's "Believe" was a hit for about a year. > > I sure miss Brenda's commentary on stuff like this . . .< It's always nice to be missed. Thanks guys. Can't stay long, but wanted to answer. This is based on my somewhat foggy recollection of what's happened with single sales, but here goes. The weight given to airplay versus the sale of singles has changed a couple of times in the last 10 years. Around '96-'97 more weight was given to sales than airplay. The labels went through a period of taking steep losses (around $3/unit cost with $.99/unit price) on commercial singles to achieve chart position. Around '99 the lightbulb finally went on and the labels pulled back. (Although you will find commercial singles available for rap and some R&B, they have for the most part been phased out with the other genres.) The chart calculation was once again shifted back to weight airplay more heavily than sales. At the same time, there was an increase in radio consolidation, leading to more stations being programmed centrally, with software doing more of the work of good-old, human program directors. I think that single longevity is more because of the way radio is programmed than what labels spend to get airplay. This is especially relevant for songs that become Hot AC hits and Hot AC stations have big audiences and therefore heavy weighting. Hot AC hits end up on the charts forever because songs are rotated the slowest- meaning they add few songs to their playlist (almost exclusively songs that have become hits at other formats) and keep them there for a long time. Bland is big at Hot AC and change is slow. Once a song is deemed to be inoffensive to the audience (meaning it researches well-it doesn't get extremely strong like or dislike) it can stay in rotation for months. Contrast it with the UK where there are a lot fewer stations and the industry is driven (and make money) from singles. Hope that helps. B np: Shelby Lynne - "Gonna Be Better" from "Identity Crisis" A very fine recovery from the tarted up, Glen Ballard fiasco that was "Love, Shelby" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:17:31 -0700 From: "Brenda" Subject: Re: Joni and the other Girls On 6 Oct 2003 at 0:04, StephenToogood wrote: > Yes it does amaze me how out of touch Joni is with so much good music. > I mean she grumbles when hers doesn't get much attention. > > I also feel sorry for her because I'm sure it must have been really > hard. I mean she accomplished a lot as and for a woman in the industry > and many woman less talented than her kick her ass when it comes to > record sales. Alanis for example: 'Jagged Little Pill' has sold a > ridiculous amount. Yes it has a lot of emotion in it and yeah it's > pretty good but it sure as hell has proved to be less timeless! For me > anyway because I rarely listen to it now. Also Alanis didn't put as > much into that record as Joni puts into hers. Of course Joni is like a > miracle and other artist can't help that. I'm not sure that it's particularly helpful to compare Joni's sales with anyone who has put out a successful record since Michael Jackson's "Thriller" sold 40 million during it's chart dominance. Music was catapulted from the radio and live shows to television in a big way, 24 hours a day. It changed everything. Combine that with the corporatizaiton of labels (the desire for greater returns on every signing and every release) and the consolidation of radio and you have an atmosphere where selling a million records is a disappointment - unlike the 70's when a platinum record was a celebration. I don't think it's outrageous to suppose that if "Court & Spark" had its initial release today with "Help Me" being a big hit at radio and a young, beautiful California-kissed Joni seducing the audience in a video, that she would have a multi-platinum success. Just my late to the thread $.02. B np: Samite - "Mwatu" - -------------------------------------------- "Radio has no future" - Lord Kelvin, 1897 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:24:59 EDT From: HOOPSJOHN1@aol.com Subject: does it really matter does it really matter if you come now or if you come later. ever wonder if joni, or any artist for that matter, writes not so much about a particular person place or thing in their own experience of life, but about life in general? hmmmmmm Joni is IT, IMO, #1, no one even comes close. janis ian is # 2 i like cris williamson and holly and dar and tori and ani and many natalie and many more, oh and bob and the thompsons and elvis costello, simon and gar, and i think it is a prerequisit that i do this but heck i even like melissa ethridge. I'm not sayin lump em all in a group after joni and janis ( oh and janis j ahhhhhhh, and etta, and oh goodness i could go on forever) but i have to face the truth that joni is in a class by herself. sigh, i hope the universe realizes this someday. if they don't come now you know they're gonna come later. heck i hope people don't eat me alive for this, there is SOME humore in my remarks. but if i'm gonna be eaten alive ( no pun intended) this a is a good reason to me which person at the party am i? I'd probably be friendly and watching it from the wings. another unnotable note peace hoops NP: a cd i made of all the supposed "duds" mentioned... and i'm not hearing a thud ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:30:18 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Study War no More << From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Tea Leaf Prophecy >Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:16:09 -0400 >From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com >Subject: Re: The Tea Leaf Prophecy, liner notes on captive on the carousel of time Love, Marianne ps. "Study war no more" Doesn't this come from the anti war song. . ."I ain't gonna study war no more".. . something like that? >> Marianne: I don't know where it originated from but I've heard that line (or a similar one) before; it appears in the song, "Lysistrata", on Todd Rundgren's 1982 Utopia album, Swing to the Right. From what I understand, the song documents a (supposedly) true story about wives of soldiers who refused to have sex with their husbands unless the men gave up their aspirations of war and fighting. Just another bit of trivia which may or may not apply... Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:48:46 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: study war no more njc My good friend Mr. Google tells me that Pete Seeger and the Weavers sang a song called "Study War No More". Also Laura Nyro used the line in "Save The Country" Doug Marianne Rizzo wrote: > > ps. "Study war no more" Doesn't this come from the anti war song. . > ."I ain't gonna study war no more".. . > something like that? > > Again, Joni you're a miracle. > > _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:18:21 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: study war no more njc Doug wrote: > My good friend Mr. Google tells me that Pete Seeger and the Weavers > sang a song called "Study War No More". Also Laura Nyro used the line > in "Save The Country" > > Marianne Rizzo wrote: > >> >> ps. "Study war no more" Doesn't this come from the anti war song. >> . ."I ain't gonna study war no more".. . >> something like that? > Vince responds: The song Down by the Riverside is an American African American spiritual and folk song that has as many versions as any old folk song does; the lyrics that I use in my congregation, which i complied after studying many variant texts, is as follows... Down By the Riverside I'm gonna lay down my heavy load Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna lay down my heavy load Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna lay down my travelin' shoes Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna lay down my travelin' shoes Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna lay down my gun and belt Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna lay down my gun and belt Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna put on my long white robe Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna put on my long white robe Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I'm gonna put on my starry crown Down by the riverside Down by the riverside Down by the riverside I'm gonna put on my starry crown Down by the riverside ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:24:52 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni is a miracle - now singles NJC Brenda writes: << Hope that helps. >> It does help, Brenda. Thanks! It's good to see you appear suddenly. Your commentary is missed! And this is scary: << Bland is big at Hot AC and change is slow. Once a song is deemed to be inoffensive to the audience (meaning it researches well-it doesn't get extremely strong like or dislike) it can stay in rotation for months. >> But it explains a lot! I remember when I used to strongly like and/or dislike what was on the radio. Now it seems so much confetti . . . --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:29:44 +1000 From: ash Subject: Neil Young and altered tuning Tasmanian Advocate newspaper dated Saturday 11th October 2003 as follows..... "Then there's the news Neil Young is bringing his original band Crazy Horse, Down Under (Australia), dubbed the most anticipated tour of the DECADE. Young and his group will preform three shows in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne towards the end of November" yipeee in time for a post birthday present? oh yes some one called Prince is also coming here.....he seems to be back calling himself that name, plus Robbie Williams with Duran Duran as support, tickets are over a $100 Australian. AND From our local lending library.... a sort of coffee table sized book 'GUITAR' A complete guide for the player by Thunder Bay Press (USA) 2002 318 pages on pages 134 and 135 Altered tuning under the heading of Playing-Acoustic EADGBE or EAC#GBE is a Joni photo (Isle of Wight 1970, yellow dress) 5"x 4" with the Clouds album (also pictured) opposite and a caption "to the unique jazz-cum-folk of Joni Mitchell..." and 2 exercises in this type of guitar playing I just thought I would add this! In a book called (2000?) in the same Library section "Where are they now?" by a British author. This is a book about one hit wonders...he is very dismissive of the group Sparks and seemed more concerned with dead people, as a lot of one hit wonders after 15 mins of fame, seem to go bankrupt, do drugs and die...did I read all this in Hollywood Babylon books before? Joni has a small entry in the book Joni is hinted at as having retired? but at the back is a mention of the British Joni Fan club. back to lurking Ash ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:34:47 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: study war no more njc Vince writes: << I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more, I ain't gonna study war no more. >> Well then, how about an English course! --Bob, wondering where music would be without bad grammar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:49:06 -0400 From: vince Subject: bad english in music njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Vince writes: > ><< I ain't gonna study war no more, > > >Well then, how about an English course! > > --Bob, wondering where music would be without bad grammar > > It would be nowhere I can't get any satisfaction from songs with perfect English, I can't get no! Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:32:17 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: October 11 1967: Joni, along with Cynthia Gooding, is featured from 8:30 to 9:30 PM on New York City's WKCR radio "Folk Song '67" program. - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #510 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)