From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #491 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, September 28 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 491 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 [zenpop@mindspring.com] Re: Perspectives - Long ["StephenToogood" ] "Female singer/songwriter" alert NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] NJC -- brushes with greatness: babysitters ["Kate Bennett" ] baez ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Perspectives - Long ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joan Baez box set njc ["ron" ] Re: Perspectives - Long - NJC ["ron" ] Joni on Desert Island Discs again [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 [Catherine McKay ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #303 [StDoherty@aol.com] Re: Perspectives - Long - NJC [Bobsart48@aol.com] searching the Joni archives [Deb Messling ] Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) [Bobsart48@aol.com] Defense of emmylou mostly njc ["Richard Flynn" ] EmmyLou - NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) ["ron" ] RE: Perspectives - Long - NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:21:00 -0700 From: zenpop@mindspring.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 Laura wrote: > CAS... one of my favorite albums... HI Fredrick! Welcome to the JMDL. > I've > got CAS on CD, and mine has everything yours is missing (including the > profile > picture of Joni) and is an excellent quality recording. I think you > got > rooked. Mine was put out by Elektra/Asylum Records (a division of > Warner). > You > might have to invest in a 7th purchase of CAS or take the people who > shorted > you on the insert to court because they don't have any spark, > obviously! > > Laura > > PS. The Dr. Laura thing is a joke. Please, don't confuse me with the > radio > lady. Wink. > Thanks Laura (and everyone else who dropped me a "welcome" note). Dr. Laura (!?) -- now that's a frightening thought ;-)) Anyway, my saga continues: Piqued, I went back to the CD store today and purchased Court and Spark again (slightly obsessive?). Sure enough, THIS version of the disc had the full lyric list, (proper) original credits and the great Seeff photo. Feeling a bit outlaw-ish, I swapped the improper jewelcase insert BACK into the disc I just purchased, and returned everything for a refund. They didn't bat an eye. - --- Regarding all the comments here regarding the Geffen boxed set. Like a lot of you I've balked at paying extra (again) for: 1) what I consider to be the weakest (and occasionally painful -- didn't some just mention Dancin' Clown?) phase of Joni's career (save for Night Ride Home) 2) a $50.00 Dylan cover -- (albeit a fantastic one). Three bonus tracks does NOT a boxed set make. Sorry. That just blows. 3) Aside from sonic improvements, these are the same discs that are still easily available brand new (or used) at sundry CD stores across America. I know because I saw each of them today, while doing my CAS biz (lol!) Which surprised me -- especially WTRF, which I thought was lonnnng gone. Anyway, that's my two cents re: the set. - --- On another topic: Has anyone figured out a way to actually search the archives? If so, please share. There's different topics I'd like to broach here, but I'm afraid they might be hackneyed, and not that stimulating to "regulars," so I thought I'd do some research first. Thanks, Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:20:54 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Perspectives - Long Bob wrote: > What I'm saying is not just that I'm spoiled. I'm saying Joni sort of ruined > listening to popular music for me. Darn her. Her work is just so superior. Oh I so know what you mean Bob! Anything I listen to now I totally pick apart and when I do like something it rarely stands the test of time like Joni's material. Of course there are some and when there is it's a nice surprise. ************** Steve T amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk "Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning and the sand" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:54:57 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "Female singer/songwriter" alert NJC wow, i knew dar mary shawn & patty were touring but emmylou & lucinda showing up too! that is not to be missed! >Came across this when cruising the web tonight - Dar Wiliams, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Emmylou Harris, Shawn Colvin, Patty Griffin and Lucinda Williams will perform at the Tall Stacks festival in Cincinnati October 15-19. Many others as well. Worth a trip to the Queen City. Bryan< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:05:07 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: CMIARS >I like CMIARS< i said it before & i'll say it again & again...i loved this record from first listen...it brought me back to joni after a decade of wandering without her... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:15:11 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: NJC -- brushes with greatness: babysitters well one of the best songs ever written imo is 'the babysitter's here' by dar william so thank you bob for reminding me of that gem... >Joan Baez was from my hometown and used to babysit for the children in my sister's friend's family. I also once knew someone who had Judy Collins as a babysitter when he was a child and she used to comp him tickets whenever he came to town. What's more, it's Saturday night and I am sitting around writing about famous babysitters people had half a century ago. I think that is a great, big, glowing neon sign flashing this message: Get a life, Bob! --Bob< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:15:12 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Dylan on Joni - the exact quote >Here is the interview where Dylan compares Joni to a man. It's from Rolling Stone, in 1987. BD: I hate to see chicks perform. _Hate_ it.< that is one of the strangest & most obnoxious quotes from anyone ever >>BD: Joni Mitchell is in her own world all by herself, so she has a right to keep any rhythm she wants. She's allowed to tell you what time it is.<< & then one of my favorite quotes as indeed she does & is ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:25:16 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: baez in postively fourth street the book i think he wrote that jone & mimi & family lived near stanford...but later boston? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:25:17 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Perspectives - Long >Will an Emmylou fan out there please give me a list of what they think the really good songs on this box set include, so I can pay even harder attention to them the next time I listen to these albums ? (I already know and like Here, There and Everywhere, Evangeline, Save the Last Dance for Me, Mr. Sandman, And I Love You So, The Boxer, Millworker, To Know Him is to Love Him and Hard Times. That's 9 out of 61. Can we get me up to 25 (that would be batting .400 or so on really good songs). Now I know these are pretty much all considered good songs - she doesn't have to cover lousy songs, after all. I'm looking for really good.< i'm more than i fan, emmylou has influenced me as much as joni...i don't have the box set but if you send me the list of songs i'd be happy to give you a top 25...(only one on your list is on mine) ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:26:27 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Joan Baez box set njc hi mark The blurb from village records reads: >>>>>>This new four disc box set contains all six of her albums she recorded for A&M in the seventies. That includes her double live album "From Every Stage." You get some scattered bonus tracks including her much requested studio version of Bob Dylan's "Forever Young." Of course you get the entire classic album "Diamonds & Rust." Instead of this set reminding me of how old I am, it actually reminded me of what it was like to be young and anticipate each new album by her and all of the other troubadours of the day. Release Date: 09/23/2003 <<<<< and hell yeah - id *love* to get gulf winds on cd instead of the really tired old cassette copy ive got........ Ron np - emmylou - before believing - from portraits - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: "JMDL" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:17 PM Subject: Joan Baez box set njc > Does anyone have information on the Joan Baez 'Complete A & M > Recordings' box set? I would assume that this one would include 'Gulf > Winds'. I would buy it for that cd alone, I think. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:51:45 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Perspectives - Long - NJC hi bob > out there please give me a list of what they think the really good songs on > this box set include, so I can pay even harder attention to them the next time I > listen to these albums ? (I already know and like Here, There and Everywhere, > Evangeline, Save the Last Dance for Me, Mr. Sandman, And I Love You So, The > Boxer, Millworker, To Know Him is to Love Him and Hard Times. That's 9 out of ok - i'll bite on some of these - lets see what we can do. what you must remember is that emmylou sadly neglected her songwriting chores for many, many years. what she specialised in were some of the most finely crafted versions of songs by a widerange of writers. her bands that she put together have been some of the finest collections of musicians in their genre. i have been fortunate enough to get a couple of live recordings and they are every bit as note perfect as the studio recordings - with the added bonus of live atmosphere. even her latest band - spyboy is great. musically - she is the equivalent of joni in the countrty genre. as to the songs - to start off - you missed one of the greatest songs ever written - one right up there in the joni category - & the first one on the set. of course im talking about "boulder to birmingham" which i fell in love with the first time ever i heard joan baez sing (from every stage?? contemporary ballad book?? cant remember now). when i heard emmylou's own version shortly afterwards (pieces of the sky) it was confirmed as a classic - even though i was totally baffled by the lyrics - hey - who knew boulder was a town???. work on this one. put it on loud, put it on repeat - i promise you wont wind up like a clockwork orange :-) dont worry - i wont go into so much detail on all the tracks i pick out. its just that BTB is such a stand out song :-) other tracks i love from portraits include: in my hour of darkness - gram making believe - jimmy work two more bottles of wine = delbert mcclinton you never can tell - chuck berry one of these days - earl montgomery (another classic - done by a whole heap of people - & emmylous version is jus great) easy from now on - susanna clark/carlene carter (this one has some awesome lyrics - see them at the bottom of my mail!) hello stranger - AP Carter evangeline - robbie robertson (well - of course im biased - emmylou AND robbie) save the last dance for me - cod primus/mort shuman if i needed you - townes van zandt millworker - james taylor dimming of the day - richard thompson born to run - paul kemmerley sweetchariot - emmylou a river for him - emmylou icy blue heart - john hiatt hard times - stephen foster calling my children home - doyle lawson/charles waller/robert yates when i paint my masterpiece - bob dylan no regrets - tom rush ahh,, only 21 :-) actually - there are only two songs i *dont* like. thats her naff version of "caseys last ride" - what was she thinking - making it sound so bouncy???? and mister sandman - i never got that song & always felt embarassed for her singing it. the last two tracks are both also stunners - and still make me wonder why emmylou never got out of country & into folk years ago - just take a listen to wrecking ball, and red dirt girl & imaginhe what could have been. when i paint my masterpiece was previously unreleased - what a crime!!!! ron np - when i paint muy masterpiece Easy From Now On: There he goes gone again Same old story's gotta come to an end Lovin' him was a one way street But i'm gettin' off where the crossroads meet It's a quarter moon in a ten cent town Time for me to lay my heartaches down Saturday night gonna make myself a name Take a month of sundays to try and explain It's gonna be easy to fill the heart of a thirsty woman Harder to kill the ghost of a no good man And I'll be ridin' high in a fandangled sky It's gonna be easy; it's gonna be easy from now on SOLO Raw as a whip but clean as bone Soft to the touch when you take me home When the mornin' comes and it's time for me to leave, Don't worry about me; i got a wildcard up my sleeve It's gonna be easy to fill the heart of a thirsty woman Harder to kill the ghost of a no good man And I'll be ridin' high in a fandangled sky It's gonna be easy; it's gonna be easy It's gonna be easy from now on ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:30:39 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Joni on Desert Island Discs again This time it's Nick Hornby, author of Hi Fidelity et al. He has recently written a book called 31 songs, which is simply his 31 favourite songs and why he likes them - which of us wouldn't like to be paid to do that?? Anyway, he's only allowed 8 on DID, and one of them was Night Ride Home, which was playing as his son was born - awww bless! He's a personable speaker, so the programme was fun to listen to; bonus points for choosing Kate & Anna McGarrigle's Complainte Pour St. Catherine, which I've always loved. Having established that the programme doesn't seem to be part of the BBC Radio 4 archives, I think the only way to listen to it would be to catch the repeat, which will be on Friday at 9.00am British Summer Time. Those out of range, on account of being separated by a couple of thousand miles of water, should be able to listen on line, if you go to www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 where there should be a button to listen live. All this talk of box sets has taken me back to the Bowie set, which I've now got through, and now to Sandy Denny's Who Knows Where The Time Goes, which I have on vinyl and haven't listened to for a shameful length of time. My god, what a talent, what a voice, what a wasteful death. The first song (The Lady) is taken from her last concert, and her spoken intro alone is a delight - such a delightful speaking voice, so unpretentious and earthy. Sigh... Azeem in London NP: Sandy Denny - Farewell, Farewell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:57:09 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 NJC In a message dated 9/28/2003 3:22:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, zenpop@mindspring.com writes: >On another topic: Has anyone figured out a way to actually search the >archives? If so, please share. There's different topics I'd like to >broach here, but I'm afraid they might be hackneyed, and not that >stimulating to "regulars," so I thought I'd do some research first. Hi Frederick, and welcome to the JMDL !!! Les took the archive search feature off the JMDL, cause he didn't think it was very accurate. It still works to some degree. Go to http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/index.html However, don't hesitate to bring up any topic here. Even "regulars" can be stimulated :~) Jimmy in Florida ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:09:55 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 Frederick writes: << There's different topics I'd like to broach here, but I'm afraid they might be hackneyed, and not that stimulating to "regulars," so I thought I'd do some research first. >> Hey, Frederick. Welcome! And don't worry about bringing up any topic at all, from Joni's love life to her curly blonde perm period! We even discuss lyrics! (But please don't ask about a certain line from "Don't Interupt the Sorrow" becasue I have very strong opinions about it and I am right, dammit!) And don't worry about not stimulating the "regulars." Many of them are beyond stimulation and they wouldn't be here if they didn't like it. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:12:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #489 --- zenpop@mindspring.com wrote: > Anyway, my saga continues: Piqued, I went back to > the CD store today > and purchased Court and Spark again (slightly > obsessive?). Sure enough, > THIS version of the disc had the full lyric list, > (proper) original > credits and the great Seeff photo. Feeling a bit > outlaw-ish, I swapped > the improper jewelcase insert BACK into the disc I > just purchased, and > returned everything for a refund. They didn't bat an > eye. > ..... > Regarding all the comments here regarding the Geffen > boxed set. Like a > lot of you I've balked at paying extra (again) for: > > 1) what I consider to be the weakest (and > occasionally painful -- > didn't some just mention Dancin' Clown?) phase of > Joni's career (save > for Night Ride Home) > 2) a $50.00 Dylan cover -- (albeit a fantastic one). > Three bonus tracks > does NOT a boxed set make. Sorry. That just blows. .... Frederick and others who aren't happy with a purchase they've made because there's something wrong with it (whether it's C&S with missing pieces, or the boxed set with a booklet that falls apart within a matter of a couple of days)- PLEASE, return them to where you bought them from AND complain about it. Outline what the problems are and insist on a replacement or a refund. If you go for the replacement and it's still flawed, take it back again. The only way they're going to get the message that there's a problem is by people doing this. If the record store clerk hassles you, ask to talk to the manager. Any store that has a good reputation isn't going to give you a hard time about this. Show them what the problem is. If you don't let them know, they won't be aware there's a problem and they won't be able to fix it. You don't have to yell or scream, just tell them and show them. > On another topic: Has anyone figured out a way to > actually search the > archives? If so, please share. There's different > topics I'd like to > broach here, but I'm afraid they might be hackneyed, > and not that > stimulating to "regulars," so I thought I'd do some > research first. I can't help you with that part. If you're talking about the articles database, you can search by keywords. I don't know how to search the archives for the previous posts apart from just picking one at random. I'm sure other people do know how to do that though and I wouldn't mind finding out myself since it would be a lot faster than the way I do it. But don't be afraid to ask a question, even if you think it might be one that's been asked before. There's always a fresh take even on the "old" stuff. If people don't like it, they can skip past it. That's my opinion anyhoo. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:04:29 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #303 In a message dated 9/28/2003 3:02:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: I'm still waiting to fall in love with DED, though. Maybe my new self-indulgent purchase of this box set will do the trick, cause I'll listen to it a lot, trying to get my money's worth! You fall in love with Blue, LTC - DED is more akin to obsession - good obsession.It even has that rat-a-tat mantra. It's a great album. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:15:37 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Perspectives - Long - NJC > ok - i'll bite on some of these - lets see what we can do. Thank you Ron - I really appreciate your (as I would others') insights.. Ron -what you must remember is that emmylou sadly neglected her songwriting chores for many, many years. Bob - I understand that she has done more writing on her latest - does anyone have it for review ? Ron - i have been fortunate enough to get a couple of live recordings and they are every bit as note perfect as the studio recordings - with the added bonus of live atmosphere. even her latest band - spyboy is great. Bob - Sounds like the Carnegie concert is something to look forward to, then, in that respect as well. Ron - ahh,, only 21 :-) actually - Well, 21 is a very good number in some parlances :-). Thanks again, Ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:36:49 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: searching the Joni archives A quick-and-dirty way to search the smoe.org archives is to use Google. Do a search on the word Joni, whatever other keyword you want, and include the term site:smoe.org. It's not foolproof, but it can be helpful. Try this sample search: joni "liberation doll" site:smoe.org At 09:12 AM 9/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > On another topic: Has anyone figured out a way to > > actually search the > > archives? If so, please share. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:53:13 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) Ron asserted about Emmylou- > she is the equivalent of joni in the country genre. I found this provocative in two respects, which I will take issue with via two sort of rhetorical questions (but I'm interested in replies, anyway) Q.1 Emmy Lou is to the "country genre" as Joni is to the " genre" ? Q.2 Are you saying that Emmylou is the "equivalent" to Joni in the country genre as a performing/recording artist (but not as a compositional artist - i.e., in the not so small matter of words and music)? Leaving aside matters such as producing one's own records, and talent in other art forms, we return to the question of whether any genre has produced someone who could be considered Joni's peer by way of analogy. I have heard Sondheim's name in the realm of songwriting - most recently, I watched an interview of Marvin Hamlisch - bonus track to the Chicago DVD - in which MH noted SS as the only show tune writer who was great at both words and music. But can someone please turn me on to some personal recordings of his music as an illustration of his performing skills ? Even if we found a true peer in one of the genres (which I still haven't - Stevie Wonder included, Victor, since I cannot in good conscience include him in Joni's ballpark as a lyricist - Paul Simon is the closest I have come so far, and maybe Lennon/McCartney, but which one ?) wouldn't Q.1 count as a tiebreaker ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:25:32 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Defense of emmylou mostly njc This is apples and oranges. I have followed Emmylou's since I would go to see her night after night in DC (I must have seen her at least 50 times back then in '74 and '75). This was post-Gram, pre-Pieces of Sky. She has spent most of her career as an interpreter up through and including Wrecking Ball (an exception along the way was Ballad of Sally Rose). On her last 2 discs, Red Dirt Girl and the brand new Stumble into Grace she writes her own songs. I prefer the newest one for consitently good songwriting, though there are a couple of real standouts on Red Dirt. I also like it that the McGarrrigles co-write with her on a couple and provide their delicious harmonies. But another thing Emmylou did was to recognize country when country wasn't cool--I don't mean Byrds/ Burrito country rock, I mean country. I asked Emmylou during a break between sets at the Childe Harold about a song she sang called "Your Angel Steps Out of Heaven" because I wanted to get a record & learn it. She said it was on an old George Jones record. I must have had a slight disdain in my voice when I said, "George Jones?" Emmylou didn't miss a beat & said "George Jones is the greatest living country singer." Anyway she brought new respect for real country and helped pouplarize newer people like Townes Van Zandt and Guy Clark and her former rhythm guitarist Rodney Crowell (whose new disc, Fate's Right Hand, is brilliant)AND she has been a tenacious advocate in Nashville for real country music as opposed to that Shania Twain crapola. And she's a great performer, too. She's not a consistently great songwriter like Joni, but now that she's writing, she's good and getting better. (And even Joni, like Homer, nods. I can't bear "Happiness is the Best Facelift.) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > Bobsart48@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:53 AM > To: flopit@mweb.co.za; kate@katebennett.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) > > > Ron asserted about Emmylou- > > > she is the equivalent of joni in the country genre. > > I found this provocative in two respects, which I will take > issue with via > two sort of rhetorical questions (but I'm interested in replies, anyway) > > Q.1 Emmy Lou is to the "country genre" as Joni is to the " > genre" ? > > > Q.2 Are you saying that Emmylou is the "equivalent" to Joni in > the country > genre as a performing/recording artist (but not as a > compositional artist - > i.e., in the not so small matter of words and music)? > > > Leaving aside matters such as producing one's own records, and talent in > other art forms, we return to the question of whether any genre > has produced > someone who could be considered Joni's peer by way of analogy. I > have heard > Sondheim's name in the realm of songwriting - most recently, I > watched an interview > of Marvin Hamlisch - bonus track to the Chicago DVD - in which MH > noted SS as > the only show tune writer who was great at both words and music. But can > someone please turn me on to some personal recordings of his music as an > illustration of his performing skills ? > > Even if we found a true peer in one of the genres (which I still > haven't - > Stevie Wonder included, Victor, since I cannot in good conscience > include him in > Joni's ballpark as a lyricist - Paul Simon is the closest I have > come so far, > and maybe Lennon/McCartney, but which one ?) wouldn't Q.1 count as a > tiebreaker ? > > Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:19:00 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: EmmyLou - NJC Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) hi bob >>>>bob wrote >>>>>>>Ron asserted about Emmylou- >>>>>>>>she is the equivalent of joni in the country genre. not at all what i said. you omitted the word "musically" which in my intention changed the meaning quite dramatically. what i was getting at is the musical skill and standard. just as joni's music is technically of an extremely high standard, so is emmylou's. both use the finest musicians, great arrangements etc Q.1 Emmy Lou is to the "country genre" as Joni is to the " genre" ? well gee - i think joni is in a genre all of her own :-) Q.2 Are you saying that Emmylou is the "equivalent" to Joni in the country genre as a performing/recording artist (but not as a compositional artist - i.e., in the not so small matter of words and music)? yeah well - thats obvious innit :-) emmylou never really exercised her songwriting skills in the way that i personally think she should have.anyone who could write "boulder to birmingham" obviously does have some serious writing talent tucked away. i also do think its a shame that she stuck to country for so long, where imho she was stifled. take a listen to what happened when she burst out of country with "wrecking ball". tho again an album of covers, it is a truly great album. then on red dirt girl she finally steps out with some songwriting. really impressive songwriting. no not in joni class, but really impressive for what is effectively a songwriting debut. had she stepped out 20 years ago, and been honing her songwriting since then - well, who knows. havent heard the new one yet - but its on its way to me!!!!! and as a singer, well, there are very few who have voices like emmylou's. comparisons of who was better - joni or emmylou dont work - they are both truly great singers. albeit in different styles. if i understand from your other mails - youre basing your observations of emmylou on the strength of what appears to be a single listening to the box set. hardly what it takes to appreciate the career of a great musician. i struggled to take the whole set at one sitting as well. ive been listening to emmylou longer than ive been listening to joni (simply 'cause i discovered ennylou first) im still not tired of either of them. both of them still stun me when i appreciate the beauty of their craft. it still feels like the first time when i hear their music, but at the same time still feels like coming home to an old friend. she is a truly great musician, with a greta body of work, who has touched a number of lives during her career. mine included. ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobsart48@aol.com To: flopit@mweb.co.za ; kate@katebennett.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 5:53 PM Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) Ron asserted about Emmylou- she is the equivalent of joni in the country genre. I found this provocative in two respects, which I will take issue with via two sort of rhetorical questions (but I'm interested in replies, anyway) Q.1 Emmy Lou is to the "country genre" as Joni is to the " genre" ? Q.2 Are you saying that Emmylou is the "equivalent" to Joni in the country genre as a performing/recording artist (but not as a compositional artist - i.e., in the not so small matter of words and music)? Leaving aside matters such as producing one's own records, and talent in other art forms, we return to the question of whether any genre has produced someone who could be considered Joni's peer by way of analogy. I have heard Sondheim's name in the realm of songwriting - most recently, I watched an interview of Marvin Hamlisch - bonus track to the Chicago DVD - in which MH noted SS as the only show tune writer who was great at both words and music. But can someone please turn me on to some personal recordings of his music as an illustration of his performing skills ? Even if we found a true peer in one of the genres (which I still haven't - Stevie Wonder included, Victor, since I cannot in good conscience include him in Joni's ballpark as a lyricist - Paul Simon is the closest I have come so far, and maybe Lennon/McCartney, but which one ?) wouldn't Q.1 count as a tiebreaker ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:04:11 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Defense of emmylou mostly njc rflynn wriote > This was post-Gram, pre-Pieces of Sky. She has > spent most of her career as an interpreter up through and including Wrecking > Ball (an exception along the way was Ballad of Sally Rose). On her last 2 > discs, Red Dirt Girl and the brand new Stumble into Grace she writes her own > songs. > As I said, I have Red Dirt Girl. I am intrigued that she did an original (Ballad of Sally Rose) long ago, then stopped. I will pick up that one and her new one with my birthday gift certificate. But another thing Emmylou did was to recognize country when country wasn't cool--I don't mean Byrds/ Burrito country rock, I mean country. Yes, I gathered that from reading the liner notes to Portraits. Very good of her, and also to not completely abandon other song forms while doing so. Bobsart. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:26:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) > Q.1 Emmy Lou is to the "country genre" as Joni is to the " > genre" ? > > > Q.2 Are you saying that Emmylou is the "equivalent" to Joni in the > country > genre as a performing/recording artist (but not as a compositional > artist - > i.e., in the not so small matter of words and music)? As far as I'm concerned, Emmylou has transcended the 'country' label. I'm not sure it was ever an accurate description of her music to begin with. Her voice has a bit of a country twang to it and most of her early stuff certainly has a C&W flavor to it but I think she could just as easily have been categorized a folk singer. And her choice of material has always known no boundaries of genre. I don't think you can really draw a very meaningful comparison between Joni Mitchell and Emmylou Harris. From the start, Joni has been about creating meticulously crafted, intelligent and original songs, building them from the bottom up and putting her own personal stamp on them down to the tiniest detail in the arrangements. She excels at that. I agree, almost no-one gets close to her in this respect and she has spoiled me as far as other singer/songwriters are concerned. But I don't think that Emmylou has ever been about producing the perfect original song that will be hailed as a work of musical art. My feeling is that Emmylou is more interested in finding (and of late, writing) songs that speak some kind of truth to her and finding the best way to communicate that truth to her audience. Maybe the song is not a great masterpiece or example of the art of song writing. But a good interpreter can take a song that may be on the mediocre side and make a listener feel and hear things that another performer never begins to touch on. Again, I will cite the example of Billie Holiday. Many of her early recordings were of ditties that were hardly worthy of notice but she somehow managed to make classic recordings out of many of them with the help of some of the best musicians of her day. I think Emmylou falls into this category. She is blessed with a wonderful voice and an ability to touch on feelings in a deep and sometimes profound way. That being said, I must confess that I am finding the work on her last few albums to be by far the most interesting and absorbing of her career. The early stuff was almost too polished for my taste. Yes the playing was good and her voice and delivery were sterling, but none of the arrangements seemed particulary innovative or interesting to me. A friend gave me the Portraits box set and I have to confess, I don't think I have ever listened to all three disks. But looking at it just now, there are many gems and I'm thinking I really need to get these out and give them a good listen. Lots of songs that I am not familiar with. In Emmlou's recent recordings, I think she has finally found a style and sound that show off her unique talent in beautiful, unique and original ways. I know that her teaming with Daniel Lanois on 'Wrecking Ball' was a huge milestone. Lanois put that voice so brimming with emotion into settings that had an almost other-worldly sound but also contained a good amount of muscle and power. 'Wrecking Ball' also has impeccable choices of material from the likes of Bob Dylan, Neil Young, the McGarrigles and Lucinda Williams. However, I think that 'Cowgirl's Prayer' from 1993 shows the seeds of the direction that Emmylou was heading in. She had moved away from the down-home note perfect arrangements of the Hot Band and was moving toward a more open sound. 'Cowgirl's Prayer' also contains 'Prayer in Open D', one of her most beautiful original songs, imo. 'Red Dirt Girl' proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Emmylou could write beautiful, heart-felt songs and also that she could sustain the quality of 'Wrecking Ball' without Lanois and without aping the sound that he created for her. There are common elements, but 'Red Dirt Girl' stands on its own as a unique sounding work. My opinion is that she has done it again with 'Stumble Into Grace'. Musically this new record sounds very fresh to me. Once again the writing is good although I do have to say that some of the songs contain strong echoes of previous work. But, for me, anyway, that's ok. As far as *song writing* goes, Emmylou is no Joni. Joni was able to write hundreds of songs and the lion's share of them are completely unique animals. But Emmylou is no slouch either when it comes to composing and writing songs. And she has not lost the ability to pull the deepest feelings out of her material and find hidden truths. Her voice may not be as pristine as it once was but she definitely turns that into an asset as, I think anyway, Joni does with her diminished vocal range. I have seen Emmylou perform three times. The first time was in 1987 in an outdoor concert on a bright and beautiful sunny summer day with Edward and some friends. That is a treasured memory and I enjoyed every minute of it. The second and third time were in the last 2 to 3 years. I first heard some of the material from 'Wrecking Ball' at the first of these latter two concerts and felt compelled to buy the cd. I fell completely in love with it. The last time I saw her she was performing with Buddy and Julie Miller and Brady Blade, doing songs from her entire catalogue but mostly concentrating on 'Red Dirt Girl' and 'Wrecking Ball'. It was an amazing concert capped by the appearance of Dave Matthews towards the end who sang the duet 'My Antonia' with Emmylou and then left the stage. *Do not hesitate to see Emmylou perform.* She puts on a great show and it is always obvious that she completely loves what she does. So I guess I think comparing Emmylou to Joni is like comparing asparagus to pomegranites. They are each unique artists with their own strengths and unique characteristics. I love them both. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:28:56 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: "Equivalent to Joni" (or is she really Peerless ?) Ron replied > hi bob > > > >>>>bob wrote > >>>>>>>Ron asserted about Emmylou- > >>>>>>>>she is the equivalent of joni in the country genre. > > not at all what i said. you omitted the word "musically" which in my > intention changed the meaning quite dramatically. > Oops - I did not intend to leave off the word 'musically' when copying and pasting your quote. This was an unintentional mouseagrphical error on my part. I apologize. Although I do think that the rest of my comments did address the musical aspects - is not writing words and music in the realm of "musically" ? "if i understand from your other mails - youre basing your observations of emmylou on the strength of what appears to be a single listening to the box set. hardly what it takes to appreciate the career of a great musician. i struggled to take the whole set at one sitting as well." First of all, let me say that I was not really focusing on emmylou when I commented on Portraits - I actually like her voice and her singing - and the arrangements of these songs - a lot (ironic that my friend's wife reacts to her voice like chalk on a blackboard, I am told). I was referring to my impressions of the songwriting (i.e., the quality of the songs themselves). And I understood that these were good songs - I was looking for 'really good', and marvelling again at the relative excellence of Joni's song writing. As against that, I agree that your criticism is well founded - I have been criticial of others whose first impressions found their way into print. That makes this sort of hypocritical on my part. At least partly so. In many cases, if the music is too complex for me to absorb, I know enough to withhold judgment until I am comfortable that I have grasped it. That said, even though I am confident enough in my listening skills to believe that I could grasp the fundamentals of these songs after a small number of listenings (in some cases, one) , I am aware that it is the nuances that make great country music great country music, and I am surely humble enough to know that I do not grasp nuances that quickly, so I perhaps should have waited. As against that, I was genuinely looking for input, and this was a rare opportunity for me to ask for it - I may not get to my e-mails for another week. So, thanks again for your insights and your help - I have already downloaded the lyrics to the songs you suggested, and am ready for my second listen. Best Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:41:03 -0700 From: zenpop@mindspring.com Subject: Multi-purpose, rambling post...including "Shades of Scarlett..." Hey Y'all I heard back from so many folks this AM I'm going to use this post to address everyone. First, I'm sort of bowled over by the welcoming vibe here -- I've participated in lists and forums before (not on Ms. Mitchell, btw) but have never encountered such a warm and gregarious group. "Thank you," to everyone who wrote to say "welcome." Really appreciate it. Some different things: 1) So the consensus I got was "it doesn't matter." Post whatever topics or questions and if people don't want to read or consider they can just roll past. Cool. So that's what I'll do. 2) Jimmy wrote with the search page URL http://www.mail-archive.com/joni@jmdl.com/index.html and I found this very helpful, though he noted that it was taken down because results seemed scattershot. The only problem I encountered involved missing pages -- occasional The requested URL... was not found on this server... errors Hmmmm. Anyway, thanks J. I'm going to continue to use it. 3) Catherine: I did detail why I was returning the disc -- and even suggested they contact Warner Bros. to let them know about the packaging problem. They just shrugged and decided to re-shrink wrap the disc (without the sticker on it) and sell it as is...Oh well... 4) Bit of kismet the other day. Have been working on a written feature that involves HOSL -- and during repeated listens to the disc became re-fascinated with "Shades of Scarlett..." and then came across this great Guardian interview with Elvis Costello http://www.guardian.co.uk/friday_review/story/0,3605,678656,00.html (though they've reprinted the lyrics incorrectly -- it's "cast-iron and frail" not "cast-iron in furs..." How odd, I wonder whose faux-pas that was, the paper's or Costello's? Regardless, his praise is spot-on (duh!) So, I'm curious to hear opinions on the song's lyrics and what sort of character they are detailing. I mean, there are only a couple of non-psychologicalizing lines in the song, that offer descriptions of literal facts or happenings: "Friends tell her not so proud, Neighbors trying to sleep and yelling 'not so loud'" (that's one of my favorite couplets on the entire disc, btw -- and I keep trying to picture what she's "doing" that's so loud -- talking to herself -- or blaring the volume on her Gone With The Wind video?) and "Dressed in stolen clothes she stands..." My sense is that the character is mentally disturbed, living, say, in an apartment building -- lost in delusions and nightmares (hmmm, that describes 70% of the American population ...LOL!) That seems to be the surface spin of the tune -- but there's a much darker subtext swirling beneath -- a sharp scrutiny of the entire Southern condition/culture as it relates to the feminine -- or rather how femininity is expressed there (still). Curious to hear views and skews from folks on the list. Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:23:58 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: randy newman (SJC) I read a Randy Newman interview recently where he's talking about his latest release, which is called Songbook Vol.1, where he redoes songs from his catalog with just his own solo piano accompaniment. Released by Nonesuch. He says, "They're (Nonesuch) putting one out, and parts 2 & 3 are contingent on it selling more than 2,800 records. I recorded about 30 songs with Mitchell Froom producing, just piano and vocals. It was an idea that Bob Hurwitz, the president of Nonesuch, had -- which was fine, because I had no new songs." 2800? Is that all they need to sell to see it as a viable product? At $15 each that's only $42,000. The parallels with Travelogue are clear. Same basic concept -- rerecord old material. Though Randy's production is certainly many times less expensive than Joni's. And obviously has a much lower profit threshold. It makes me wonder what Travelogue would have been like if Joni had taken the minimalist approach with only piano accompaniment. Since so many of her original recordings are guitar-based, the piano treatment would be something refreshing and new. (Whereas, with Newman, since much of the original work was piano based in the first place, what will these new versions really add? Though I would like to get this record.) Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:27:39 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Perspectives - Long - NJC hi, i'm enjoying all the emmylou talk (as i've said she & joni are among my greatest influences/inspirations)...i consider emmylou to be up there right alongside joni but for different reasons...both incomparible but deserving of the highest accolades...but perhaps comparible in the fact that neither one can be contained by any genre... please don't make me chose between them :~} i could never... as far as genre goes, most songwriters hate that word & probably most musicians as well...it is a manufactured word that marketers think they need to know what to do with an artist... here is one reviewers take on this concept of genre (written in 1978): "Between here and superstardom, I can only see one problem, and it's a marketing problem, not an artistic one. On the evidence contained in "Quarter Moon in a Ten Cent Town" (Warner Bros.), there are at least four singers named Emmylou Harris. If she wants to boost her steady listeners from the thousands to the millions, she will probably have to decide to be just one of those four singers." http://www.emmylou.net/quarter.html anyway, i think emmylou has cris crossed many genres all during her career (including rock & roll) & i consider her one of the most amazing interpreters/arrangers of song that i have ever heard...her ability to do this with such a wide range of songs & put her indelible mark on them & truly making them her own is something i admire as much as someone who is a great songwriter... i agree that 'boulder to birmingham' is one of the most incredible songs EVER written & emmylou wrote that one with bill danoff ... i agree that 'easy from now on' is another masterpiece... some other top fav emmylou songs of mine are 'evangeline', 'leaving lousiana', 'blue kentucky girl', 'she', 'hickory wind', 'poncho & lefty', 'sweet old world' & that's just off the top of my head...if i were to listen to her records i know i'd remember many more gems that i've left off here... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #491 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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