From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #454 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 9 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 454 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Thanks and a request ["Kate Bennett" ] frau strauss NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: RUFUS [NJC] [Richard Goldman ] leni njc [tantra-apso ] Re: Life & death NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: right? njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC ["Joseph S.E. Palis" ] Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc ["Kate Bennett" ] right? njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Marcel, liberals etc njc - skip if you're already fed up with this debate [AzeemAK@aol.c] RE: email harrassment njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: right? njc ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC [tantra-apso ] Re: hot air (njc) [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) [tantra-apso ] Re: Depression (njc) now Grief [magsnbrei ] Re: Depression (njc) The mighty Wind... [Catherine McKay ] Re: Getting to Know You (NJC) - Patti Smith content [lori@lrfye.lunarpage] Re: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) [tantra-apso ] Re: What works for depression? NJC [tantra-apso ] Re: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) [tantra-apso ] more light relief njc [tantra-apso ] Re: What works for depression? NJC [Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC oh vince... and yet we are both right in the error of our ways. love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:03:08 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Thanks and a request hi ed, thanks for asking so nicely...i think most of us do try very much to remember but some people slip up occasionally & sometimes new folks haven't figured it out yet...but thanks for the reminder to use the NJC tag! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:20:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: frau strauss NJC how stupid of me! i forgot to write what i was going to write about the strauss family! strauss' wife, pauline something, was not wagner's daughter. maybe you were thinking of wagner's second wife, cosima, who was liszt's daughter. pauline strauss was a fierce antinazi! she got strauss into a lot of trouble because she was so outspoken. in fact, the character of the dyer's wife in die frau ohne schatten, a true virago, was allegedly based on pauline! strauss had a jewish daughter-in-law and the nazis made life impossible for her and strauss' grandchildren. in 1941, strauss and his family had to move to vienna because strauss and ESPECIALLY pauline never troubled to disguise their contempt for the nazis. and yes, strauss made a deal with the nazis when he got to vienna: he would keep quiet if they left his grandchildren and daughter-in-law alone. not very heroic. but pauline added: "but, when the war is over, we will never welcome any of you thugs in our villa!" all right, a pretty decadent and lame threat yet a far cry from collaboration, n'est pas? wally, pauline's fan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:21:54 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: RUFUS [NJC] Jerry, You actually have to be a 'subscribed' member of the Rufus Wainwright mailing list (which is right on the site to sign up) in order to be able to buy tickets tomorrow. So...if you are a Montrealite, and want to buy tomorrow, SIGN UP TODAY! http://www.rufuswainwright.com The new album is sensational. Definitely an early work of a genius. Joniphiles take note ! ;) Richard n.p. "Natasha", Rufus Wainwright, "WANT ONE" >For all you lucky people in the Montreal area: > >RUFUS WAINWRIGHT MONTREAL CONCERT EXCLUSIVE > >Rufus will be performing a very special intimate show in Montreal on September >24th to celebrate the release of Want One. This is a TV taping that will not >be going on sale to the general public. We have reserved an exclusive >allocation of tickets for fans on the Rufus Wainwright mailing list, >which will >be going on sale this Wednesday at noon local time. Details of the show are >below: > >Lion d'Or, Montreal >Wednesday, September 24th >Doors: 18h30 >Show: 20h00 >Tickets: $20 (CAD) + tax = $23.01/per ticket >Exclusive on sale: Wednesday, September 10th, noon >Two ticket limit > >Link to purchase tickets will be available on www.rufuswainwright.com on >Wednesday at noon. Tickets are very limited. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:22:18 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: leni njc i think i understood both sides. However, it did make me wonder if we are supposed to still harshly judge the German people and the French people? And the Americans? And the British? And everyone who had a role to play in the holocaust, either directly, or by turning a blind eye or by turning away Jewish refugees etc. It seems to me it human nature to hold a handful of people responsible for what we are all responsible for..... - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:33:14 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Life & death NJC i addded the njc tag cuz i think we've slipped up a bit on this lately... i made a promise to myself to speak up on this topic whenever i thought i could add something in the hopes it could help someone... i am no expert but have learned so much in my life about the pain of addiction & how important it is to honor everyone's pain because there is so much of it on both sides of the equation & there are very few people in this world who have not been affected by it in some way... addiction (i include alcoholism & both illegal & prescribed drugs) is a terrible heartbreaking disease- many liken it to diabetes in many ways... the addict hurts a lot of people including themselves & until they get clean & sober they don't even have the awareness of what they have done & then it is about learning how to get back a life that they put on hold for so many years, there is so much wreckage & often some of it is just unsalvageable... i think it is very hard for those who have been hurt by an addict to understand how someone could chose a substance over them & very hard to know what it must be like to be so possessed by something that nothing else matters... i think it is very hard for those who are addicts to understand how much hurt & betrayal they have created in those who love them or are related to them & who have needed them to be present when they are not... like i said, so much pain that only time & love & sharing can heal > Some people fail to understand the impact their actions have on other people until it's too late. And their past actions will continue to affect a relationship, no matter how hard everyone tries to forgive & forget.< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:31:30 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: right? njc Yes..I think it was wrong for you to do this. Now up front I will say I've had maybe three e-mails with Marcel Deste and they were just this year. I had heard good..good things about his CD. So he sent it to me gratis. I don't see why Andrea would be upset over this . I did go back to read some of the archives from September 11 2001 ..through...September 16...I";m not finished. But Frankly, there was a lot of vitriol flying both ways. It's true, I do not know what he wrote to people privately. BUT...I can tell you this.. I was involved with someone on the list who threatened to put an e-mail I had sent her to the list. The thing about doing this........no one knows what kind of things she was writing to me and accusing me of. There is my truth...her truth...AND THE TRUTH. I think it is just...wrong ..wrong..wrong....to share private OFF-list e-mails with the entire list. No matter with the best intention. ....unless someone gives you their permission. Bree >I still have the posts Andrea sent me, and i have now posted them. I >don't know if i was right to do so or not. > >The posts I copied and pasted are entire-except for a few sentences >about a lister. I did not copy them as I did not want that lister upset >further. > >These posts, as you can see, are paranoid and untrue but I don't think >they rank as his nasties. Maybe I am wrong. All i know is that they >disturbed Andrea but she did eventually write to me that he appeared >disturbed to her and why would he be banging on about it 2 years later? > >There is nothing we can do about anyone reading the archives. I find it >disturbing tho that people will foward mails to him. This is how Andrea >became a recipient of his posts-a current list member forwarded one of >her emails to him-when he is a non list member. That upset her. It >upsets me. It sort of gives one a creepy feel doesn't it? > >-- >bw >colin >http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with MSN Messenger 6.0 -- download now! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_general ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:35:09 -0400 From: "Joseph S.E. Palis" Subject: Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC I like Riefenstahl's work especially her best-known ones like _Olympia_ and _Triumph of the Wills_ but in my opinion, she surpassed these famous ones with her last film _Lowlands_ where it achieved a different degree of ... maybe "auteur"-ship? (I knew she got lots of help here and she even said sometime ago that the images seen in that film came about because of her informal conversations with other members of the crew). But I wouldn't call her work monumental. And even as I try very hard to be objective about her directorial prowess (which I think achieved some degree of Wertmuller and Cavani), its even harder to divorce her films with her larger-than-life persona which is largely due to her association with Hitler. I admit I watched her films because I was curious about this woman who was called the propagandist of Hitler (a tag she never denied) and her ability to capture magically onscreen what is realistic offscreen. But I have this nagging feeling sometimes that she may not have achieved the adulation (or hatred -- depending who's talking) she got from the film community if not for her infamous association with Hitler. My question for myself is: would I like her films had I been clueless about her past associations with Nazism? I guess I am not that objective after all. This brings to mind the countless other artists whose works may have been eclipsed by scandals, etc. I like Woody Allen's films before and after the Sonn Yi Previn though I have a low opinion of the man himself. I heard (maybe in this List many years ago?) that Nina Simone once said something nasty to Dusty Springfield -- I don't know the exact details now, but as I like both singers, that did not diminish my appreciation for Nina the artist, though I am not sure really what I think of Nina the person. Joseph (rambling as usual) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:43:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc that is so sad, 35 years is a really long time...& how sweet to think of warren needing your horse- it is true! last night the local radio station did a tribute to wz & reran a recent interview with him from this past spring (he was a resident here for several years)... they ended the show with his song 'my ride's here'... I had to put a good friend and horse of 35 years down this weekend. You don't take care of someone for 35 years and not feel sad. I guess Warren just needed a good horse to ride. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:00:18 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: right? njc colin>These posts, as you can see, are paranoid and untrue but I don't think they rank as his nasties. Maybe I am wrong.< no, the emails you posted are not at all like the emails he sent me when i made a political statement on the list- his private emails were seething & vicious & personal & they scared me because they were quite a different tone from his public political posts... & yet now i am one of those who have his cd & i hear from him occasionally & i include him on my gig e-list & i consider him a likeable guy who has different views from me... like you said, there are 2 personalities at play i believe... apologies to all who are tired of this subject, i'll stop now... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:04:12 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Marcel, liberals etc njc - skip if you're already fed up with this debate In a message dated 09/09/2003 19:55:03 GMT Daylight Time, tantraapso@btopenworld.com writes: << These posts, as you can see, are paranoid and untrue but I don't think they rank as his nasties. Maybe I am wrong. All i know is that they disturbed Andrea but she did eventually write to me that he appeared disturbed to her and why would he be banging on about it 2 years later? >> You are totally right, Colin. There is nothing vicious or misogynist in these posts, just paranoia and a garbled, misunderstood version of what actually happened. I wouldn't say there are any lies either, even though much of what he says is patently untrue. In order to lie you have to *know* that what what you're saying isn't true. One of the great ironies of this situation is that one thing Marcel was *NOT* thrown off the list for was being right wing. Oh sure, nobody in their right mind would dispute that the people on this list (the ones that post, at any rate) are predominantly liberal and/or left-of-centre politically. No big surprises there. And people *DID* get hot under the collar about some of the things he posted, as to me, at least, they were politically beyond the pale. Maybe people would have liked him to go away and take his views with him. However, I and others had some full and frank debates with him, on and off off list, about politics, and that was fine. One of the things that used to amuse me was the rhetorical knots Marcel used to tie himself in to avoid climbing down. He would routinely cut and paste entire articles from newsmax.com (an unashamedly right wing "news website") and send them to the list, yet he took a list member to task for posting a 3-line email giving details of a political gathering. This gathering didn't accord with his politics, so he tried (and failed) to convince the list that this other person was in the wrong. And yet he complains that *his* views were not tolerated! Anyway. The reason he was thrown off the list was more about his persistent harrassing of list members (mostly women), and one particular list member (yes, a woman), which included sending private emails, despite repeated requests not to do so, which included vicious and personal abuse. Marcel is not stupid, yet he affected not even to understand what it was he was being asked not to do. One particular private email, which the recipient posted to the list, was so base and spiteful that it prompted a howl of outrage (including from some of the most equable and inclusive-spirited people on this list), which was the beginning of the end. (And Bree, you may think that under no circumstances should private email be posted to the list, but I challenge you to make the same assertion about this post. It was abusive, and if abuse is not brought to light it will flourish.) Following September 11th, Marcel posted a succession of increasingly inflammatory emails, making all sorts of wild accusations, one of which pointed the finger at a few listers (one of whom was me), implying that we were somehow contributing to the terrorist mentality that had led to this disaster. They were full of pure hatred and incoherent bile. Les finally decided that enough was enough and Marcel was banned from the list. Marcel is not a monster. As has already been stated by Kate, he can be affable in person - yet he can abuse the same people with whom he has previously got on. He is capable of great sensitivity, as his concert reviews indicate. And he is capable of rageful, spite-filled viciousness, particularly towards women. *THIS* is why he was banned, not because he is politically right wing. Azeem in London NP: Lucinda Williams - World Without Tears (if only!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:09:08 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: RE: email harrassment njc >> He seemed a rather jeckyl/hyde character to me. < > > yes, i agree Rather like his heroes, Nixon, Reagan, and Bushes I and II. Sorry! Couldn't resist!! ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:40:50 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: right? njc Colin: >> I still have the posts Andrea sent me, and i have now posted them. I >> don't know if i was right to do so or not. Bree: > Yes..I think it was wrong for you to do this. Two wrongs don't make a right, but on another hand, if a list member thought it was okay to forward Andrea's posts to "someone else" (regardless that all JMDL posts are available at http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni and are therefore a matter of public record), then I say "tit for tat." Or, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." Etc. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:47:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) --- blckcrow@chorus.net wrote: > Welcome, Linda! It's great to have you here, and > great to hear people's "how > I discovered Joni" stories. > > And, LOL: one common thread seems to be parents, > significant others, and > children who *just don't understand.* ;-) I know I > drove my poor mother > nearly to desperation by listening to tons of early, > "helium-voiced" Joni on > vacations during my college years. LOL, Mary - my mother couldn't stand Joni either. "What is that dirge?" she'd say. "Who is that caterwauling?" But Papa's faith was in people - he got it (more or less.) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:43:47 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC Joseph S.E. Palis wrote: >. > >This brings to mind the countless other artists whose works may have >been eclipsed by scandals, etc. I like Woody Allen's films before and >after the Sonn Yi Previn though I have a low opinion of the man >himself. I heard (maybe in this List many years ago?) that Nina Simone >once said something nasty to Dusty Springfield -- I don't know the >exact details now, but as I like both singers, that did not diminish my >appreciation for Nina the artist, though I am not sure really what I >think of Nina the person. > > > I think it can be diffiuclt to separate the person from the mistake. 'love the person, hate the sin'. I have never liked Woody Allen's films-think he is too far up himself. I abhor his betrayal of his step daughter and wife and family. That doesn't mean all his work should be dismissed. I also see no reason why Polanski should not be honoured for producing a great film(if that is what he did). What he did in his private life should always be condemned. The two things are separate. If we judge in this way, then we appaear to be saying that all the good in people is wiped out by any darkness in the people. since we all make errors, are we saying we are all unforgivable worthless beings? That darkness is more powerful than light? The the force for good is nothing in the end? that evil alayws hasmore peower? that it wipes out everyhting, brings everything to nought? bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:51:42 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: hot air (njc) Happy to discuss Joni Mitchell with you although the only reason I contacted you was to warn you about something that others were decieving you about with respect to the list. I do hope this email didnt ramble too much. Sorry if Im boring you to tears. Marcel Talk about hot air! This guy is full of it, the kind that comes from a fever much worse than what AIDS brings. I thank God he didn't contact me after I posted in dismay over the mythical inner circle. I hope he reads the posts about the wind and steps out into it and catches some of the peace that comes with something given so freely. Liberals? I thought we were just Joni fans in all varieties. Running to stand still with the generation Xer's.... Fire and ice, Dr. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:51:49 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > >LOL, Mary - my mother couldn't stand Joni either. >"What is that dirge?" she'd say. "Who is that >caterwauling?" > > sounds like most of the people know, including my DJ. He sat and watched WOHAM with me and when it was over said 'the bitch still can't sing'. That phrase is a running joke with us, or with him really. I read out a particularly pretentious post to him about Joni and her talent that in the opinion of the writer, was far greater than any person living now or in the past. When i'd finished, he came up with that one line which made me laugh. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:56:16 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: Depression (njc) now Grief Ive decided to alter the subject title, because from where I sit, depression is a very different place than grief. And since Im smack in the middle of grief, for me, I think I know what I mean and hope I can express some of my thoughts. It has now been three weeks since my brother Dave's death and I now know that this is the most difficult 'grief' I can remember experiencing in my entire life. The finality of it all is one of the toughest aspects. Simply and not so simply put...no more Dave. And yet, as Sherelle has so eloquently written in her post...as with her friend Ray, my Dave is everywhere too, and in particular, he is as present as the sun shine. His warmth gives me a feeling of comfort despite how bloody much this hurts. I cannot fathom that his life has been taken away from him. And yet, it is his life that I am mesmerized with these days. All the memories, his laughter, the twinkly hazel eyes just like mine. Alas he got the long thick eyelashes. I think that when people say things like get over it and move on or forward or whatever way they try to rationalize you through your own place of pain, the good intentions are there. It is very difficult to be present, in the moment, with someone who is grieving a death. And in my experience, the closer the death, the more difficult to move forward, on, to , from, whatever. It's the strangest place Ive been. Im walking in a deep water tank at times, lead boots on at other times, paralyzed at other times, laughing , crying. Missing him. Feeling him in my every cell. Laurent raises a wonderful tradition when he discusses the notion of sitting Shiva. My understanding from Brian is that no matter what , after someone is buried, which is usually soon after the death. The Shiva house becomes the centre , the sanctuary where family and friends gather round the bereaved and truly are present with the loss of that loved one. There is food, talk, sometimes laughter and surely a river of tears. Death is a part of life, absolutely . and yet, we run from the notion that we too will die. That our Dave's and Ray's will die. So, we are ill prepared to know what to do now, in five minutes, in five hours, in five days time. He's gone and there's no denying that. No escaping that reality. So Im grieving and finding all the places Dave resides within me. He is a part of the fabric of who I have been, who I am and who I am becoming. Precious brother, you will never be forgotten. and now I shall share a most beautiful poem that my sister Lucy has shared with me all the way from Gosport during our phone call while I watched the rays of the sun dance across Claudia's living room floor: Separation Your absence has gone through me like a thread through a needle everything I do is stitched with its colour. W.S.Merwin thank you Lucy and everyone for receiving my words and for hearing me in this terrible time. love always, Mags - --- Sherelle Smith wrote: > Thank you Mark. It really is good to be back. I am so happy to > hear that > Bruce has hope again. Even though I never knew Denny, it does > me good to > hear what a special person he was. It helps to honor his > memory. > > Death is a part of life. I've spent most of my life running > away from that > fact for one reason or another. Death is such a mystery and as > human beings, > it is a natural thing for the brain to try to solve the > mystery even though > the whole thing seems to defy all rationality and logic. If > one believes the > spirit lives on, it is hard for the brain to believe in > something it can no > longer see. (At least it is for me) I now have to develop > another sense that > sadly is not used very much. I have to learn to "feel" that > person in my > heart. Trying to do that is like trying to learn how to > function without > sight. > > A dear friend of mine died two months ago as the result of a > hit and run > drunk driver. Ray was a dead on look-alike for Willie Nelson. > I took his > death better than I have taken anyone else's death because, > Ray loved life > in spite of himself. His then girlfriend, Rob and I spent a > week in Ocean > City as their guests, and one evening as the sun was going > down, Ray, with a > Wild Turkey and Coke in his hand just started beaming at Rob > and me and > said, "It really doesn't get any better than this. It's great > being with > good friends" He knew how to be in the moment. He taught me > how to live. I > knew there was something significant to this vacation, but had > no idea that > it would be the last time I would spend that much time with > him. Ray was in > Vietnam twice and suffered many emotional scars in his > lifetime yet he tried > to keep himself happy anyway. That really happened when he > bought his > Harley-Davidson. > > Since his death, I have learned to "feel" Ray in my heart. > It's much like > feeling the wind blow on your face and in your hair. The wind > really is > there even though you can't see it. The next time you feel the > it, don't > ignore it. It is a chance to remember your loved one(s). Take > the time to > connect the dots. I've always loved windy days, but now I know > why. > > Love, > Sherelle > > > >From: "Mark or Travis" > >To: "Sherelle Smith" > , > >CC: > >Subject: Re: Depression (njc) > >Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:13:52 -0700 > > > >It is very important that > > > everyone experiencing loss give their minds and bodies a > chance to > > > recover a little bit. Slow down and don't try to tackle > things > > > "business as usual" . Business is not as usual right now. > Allow > > > yourself to grieve in whatever way feel s right for you. > Everyone is > > > different. > > > >Very wise words, Sherelle. It is so good to see you posting > again! > > > >I know there has been a lot written about the 'stages' of > grief. One > >thing I think is important is to be patient with yourself. > Don't put > >yourself on a time line. I have a friend who lost his > partner about 3 > >and a half years ago to a rare type of bone marrow disease. > He was > >completely devastated and had to be medicated in one way or > another > >for a long time just to get through the days. At some point, > >ridiculously soon after Denny's death, someone at Bruce's > work > >suggested it was time he 'get over it and move on'. Having > been > >through the loss of a partner myself, I was incensed at this > person's > >insensitivity. Your life is completely changed forever. You > don't > >just 'get over it and move on'. > > > >Bruce was convinced when Denny died that he would not be able > to > >continue life without Denny. He told me on the phone > recently that he > >didn't expect to be alive at this point in time. But he is > just now > >beginning to see a new life emerging for himself. Maybe for > him it > >took longer than it does for some people. We met in the > Denver > >airport when I flew back to the Midwest in June and had a > layover > >there. I told Bruce that I suspected that what he & Denny > shared and > >what Edward & I shared was a closeness that most married or > partnered > >people never really experience. (Mack talked about this > recently. I > >really do know what you mean, Mack, about the difference.) > When the > >relationship is that intense, you aren't going to 'just get > over it > >and move on'. > > > >I have already said this to Mags privately, but Sherelle has > said it > >so I'll say it again. Talk. Write to us. Call. There are > people > >who will be able to listen and handle whatever you have to > say. They > >are there. Once you find those people, they will be your > life lines > >and you will count them as blessings for the rest of your > life. They > >will get you through it. We will get you through it if you > let us. > >(I meant what I said about calling, Mags.) You are never > alone, Mags. > > > >Mark > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! > https://broadband.msn.com > ===== You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:56:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Depression (njc) The mighty Wind... --- Bree Mcdonough wrote: > What is it about the wind? (Beautiful > post..Sherelle...thanks for > sharing) > > "Let The Wind Carrey ME" > > I don't care how down I am ...but when the wind > starts stirring...I have > almost a new take on life at that moment. IT might > just last a few > minutes....but this momentary HIGH is very real. > It is as almost the wind > has washed all the crap...life's minutiae away. > And I can feel....FEEL > ALIVE. ALIVE!! > > I usually run outside and try to experience it > > Any other windy people out there? (and no..not > that wind) > More like full of hot air here. I keep saying I'm going to go to ground & lurk for a while... feck. Yeah, I love the wind! My daughter and I have a place we go to sometimes (usually the boy-child doesn't want to go). It's down by Lake Ontario and you can walk down to the end of this spit and stand on rocks overlooking the lake. When the day is really windy and the waves are crashing, you can stand out there on these rocks and scream your lungs out and no one can hear you, so you don't have to be embarassed about it. This is one of my favourite places to go, because it's so close to where I live - takes about 5 minutes to drive there and no matter what season it is, there's always something very cool to see. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:07:48 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: What works for depression? NJC Thanks sooo much for that post! I relate with that very much. 2 people not so long ago were saying I'm too much of a deep thinker and need to lighten up. Those are the kind of people who speak about you as if you are not in the same room as them btw! Well I won't 'lighten up'! If I'm thinking deeply there's a damn good reason for it! I'm not just gonna' pretend that things are okay and let life slip by an wake up decades later and think I wish I had made things better all those years ago! Yeah I think thinking deep can make you depressed and God knows I don't always find an answer but at least I know I've tried! Cursed but equally blessed because yes, I think it does help me appreciate Joni's music more and see it for all it beauty. :) Steve - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:47 AM Subject: Re: What works for depression? > In a message dated 9/8/2003 7:41:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > smarcaurele@digitalproquo.com writes: > Remembering that 99% seem to be too dense to even get depressed! > Yes, and Joni related a Buddhist story about the poet being miserable because > he muddies his own waters. There seems to exist, a segment of humanity > (myself included) who become sort of existentially depressed from looking inward > for answers all the time instead of being "light". And for all the downs > involved, I'm not sure I'd swap this trait for blissful lightness. It has it's > gifts, and is surely one of the things that allows me my deep appreciation of Joni > as well as a passion for the rich tapestry that is life. > Puffed up and strutting when I think I win > Down and shaken when I think I lose > Ken > PS isn't it interesting that Joni says "when I think I win" rather than > simply "when I win." Just another example that it's really all about the stories > we tell ourselves about what is happening rather than the circumstance itself. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:27:53 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) LOL. This reminds me of when I was still living with my Mum; I would play Joni in the kitchen while I washed the dishes. One time my Mum asked me "what was I was listening to?" So I told her "it's blue by Joni Mitchell'. I asked her if she liked it and she said "not really, is there something wrong with her voice?"! I knew then that my Mum would never like Joni. She did however comment that she liked 'Both Sides Now' by Joni when I was playing it and I thought I heard her humming to TI once! Steve T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:31:46 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ; "Cynthia Vickery" ; Enviado: martes, 09 de septiembre de 2003 22:20 Asunto: frau strauss NJC > how stupid of me! i forgot to write what i was going to write about the > strauss family! > strauss' wife, pauline something, was not wagner's daughter. maybe you were > thinking of wagner's second wife, cosima, who was liszt's daughter. pauline > strauss was a fierce antinazi! she got strauss into a lot of trouble because > she was so outspoken. in fact, the character of the dyer's wife in die frau > ohne schatten, a true virago, was allegedly based on pauline! strauss had a > jewish daughter-in-law and the nazis made life impossible for her and > strauss' grandchildren. in 1941, strauss and his family had to move to > vienna because strauss and ESPECIALLY pauline never troubled to disguise > their contempt for the nazis. > and yes, strauss made a deal with the nazis when he got to vienna: he would > keep quiet if they left his grandchildren and daughter-in-law alone. not > very heroic. but pauline added: "but, when the war is over, we will never > welcome any of you thugs in our villa!" all right, a pretty decadent and > lame threat yet a far cry from collaboration, n'est pas? > wally, pauline's fan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:32:03 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC (for AOL members) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ; "Cynthia Vickery" ; Enviado: martes, 09 de septiembre de 2003 21:43 Asunto: RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC > oh vince... and yet we are both right in the error of our ways. > love, > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:42:19 -0400 From: "David Rahall" Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) I was working at my Dad's five and dime for the summer (1976?) and kept putting "The Hissing Of Summer Lawns" on the store's music/pa system. He hated it. Actually, I know now (since I'm mature and all) I shouldn't have done that- it's definitely not muzak. I guess I just wanted to listen to it. David P.S.- At least he didn't make me take it off, as he did with Patti Smith's "Horses." I'll admit I was *really* pushing it with that one. listening to Sly and the Family Stone "Just Like A Baby" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "StephenToogood" To: "Joni List" Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (SJC) > LOL. This reminds me of when I was still living with my Mum; I would play > Joni in the kitchen while I washed the dishes. One time my Mum asked me > "what was I was listening to?" So I told her "it's blue by Joni Mitchell'. I > asked her if she liked it and she said "not really, is there something wrong > with her voice?"! I knew then that my Mum would never like Joni. > > She did however comment that she liked 'Both Sides Now' by Joni when I was > playing it and I thought I heard her humming to TI once! > > Steve T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com Subject: Re: Getting to Know You (NJC) - Patti Smith content David wrote: > P.S.- At least he didn't make me take it off, as he did with Patti Smith's > "Horses." I'll admit I was *really* pushing it with that one. Ooh, ooh, this reminds me! Claudia and Mags and I were together this Saturday at the Takoma Park (MD) Folk Festival (yes, eat your hearts out, everyone!), and someone passed me a flyer about a Nader/Kucinich rally this weekend, where Patti Smith will be playing. I'm not planning to vote for Nader/Kucinich, but seeing Patti would be worth the trip. http://www.democracyrising.org/washington/ Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:11:16 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) Emiliano wrote: nothing! is it just me? I have now had three posts from Emiliano wiht nothing written by him, just quoting Wally's posts. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:16:10 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) In a message dated 10/09/2003 00:11:48 GMT Daylight Time, tantraapso@btopenworld.com writes: > Emiliano wrote: > > nothing! > > is it just me? I have now had three posts from Emiliano wiht nothing > written by him, just quoting Wally's posts. > Easily explained, Colin! He's forwarding Wally's posts to the list for the benefit of us AOL members, who, for extremely mysterious reasons (even the great Chris Marshall wasn't able to solve this mystery outright!), do not receive any of Wally's posts. Azeem in London NP: Sandy Dillon - Nobody's Sweetheart - anyone else know this extraordinary singer and songwriter? I've just done something I hardly ever do, which is start listening to a CD again as soon as it finishes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:17:59 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: frau strauss NJC thanks for the clarification and added words on the straus family. On another night I will be doing some research which I should have done before I said anything. I was at work and should have looked stuff up and what you have shared is very helpful. thank you very much! Vince (be glad I didn't go off on a thing about Orff -every time I hear his music I picture the Nuremberg rallies and the smoke of the ovens at Auschwitz, There was a outstanding PBS program recently about a performance of Verdi's Requiem by concentration camps inmates who were of course all killed after doing it - and I am so stupid I forget which camp it was but I was crying so hard I might not have ever heard the camp's name. Do you know of the incident? The PBS show had all this footage I had never seen... I wish I had paid attention more and cried less.) Wally Kairuz wrote: >how stupid of me! i forgot to write what i was going to write about the >strauss family! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:19:58 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: What works for depression? NJC StephenToogood wrote: >Thanks sooo much for that post! I relate with that very much. >2 people not so long ago were saying I'm too much of a deep thinker and need >to lighten up. > people who say you think too much are usally pretty dense! It's a pity more people don't think. Too many of us just accpet what we are told/taught. i.e they abdicate responsibilty. they think it is just so much easier to believe/follow what is written in a book or what is said by a rousing speaker, or charismatic person. Hence the atrocities that happen. Notice such people never take responsibilty for their beliefs either. they always preface by saying 'the such and such(bbk) says this or so and so says that'. To say I believe such and such because the book says so or so and so says so is really just a load of bull-a refusal to take responsibilty for their own beliefs or they are too dense to have their own opinion. Usually both. And yes you are right, despite the pain it can sometiem involve, the end result is worth it. There are always periods of desolation and consolation. so carry on thinking and bugger what others say about it.... > > > - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:22:08 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Fw: frau strauss NJC (for AOL members) AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: >Easily explained, Colin! He's forwarding Wally's posts to the list for the >benefit of us AOL members, who, for extremely mysterious reasons (even the >great Chris Marshall wasn't able to solve this mystery outright!), do not receive >any of Wally's posts. > > > duh! I really should read the subject lines shouldn't I? Thanks azeem. bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:27:28 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: light relief njc >> I think this pretty well sums up the whole enchilada on being >> "female". >> >> Why Women are Cranky >> We start to "bud" in our blouses at 9 or 10 years old. Enter the >> almighty, >> uncomfortable training bra contraption >> >> Next, we get our periods in our early to mid-teens (or sooner). >> Along with >> those budding boobs, we now bloat, we cramp, we get the hormone crankies, >> have to wear little mattresses between our legs or insert tubular, packed >> cotton rods in places we didn't even know we had. >> >> Our next little rite of passage (premarital or not) is having sex for >> the first time which is about as much fun as having a ramrod push >> your uterus through your nostrils (IF he did it right and didn't end >> up with his little cart before his horse), leaving us to wonder what >> all the fuss was about. >> >> Then it's off to Motherhood where we learn to live on dry crackers >> and wat er for a few months so we don't spend the entire day leaning >> over Brother John. >> >> Of course, amazing creatures that we are (and we are), we learn to >> live with the growing little angels inside us steadily kicking our >> innards night and day making us wonder if we're having Rosemary's >> Baby. Our once >> flat bellies now look like we swallowed a watermelon whole and we pee >> our pants >> every time we sneeze. When the big moment arrives, the dam in our blessed >> Nether Regions will invariably burst right in the middle of the mall >> and we'll waddle with our big cartoon feet moaning in pain all the >> way to the ER. >> >> Then it's huff and puff and beg to die while the OB says, "Please >> stop screaming, Mrs. Hearmeroar. Calm down and push. Just one more >> (or 10 ) good push," warranting a strong, well-deserved impulse to >> punch the bastard (and hubby) square in the nose for making us cram a >> wiggling,mushroom-headed 10lb. bowling ball through a keyhole. >> >> After that, it's time to raise th ose angels only to find that when >> all tha! t "cute" wears off, the beautiful little darlings morph into >> walking, jabbering, wet, gooey, snot-blowing, life-sucking little >> poop machines. >> >> The teen years. Need I say more? The kids are almost grown now and we >> women hit our voracious sexual prime in our mid-30's to early 40's >> while hubby had his somewhere around his 18th birthday (which just >> happens to be the reason all that early hot man sex got you pregnant >> in the first place). >> >> Now we hit the grand finale: "The Menopause," the Grandmother of all >> womanhood. It's either take the HRT and chance cancer in those now >> seasoned "buds" or the aforementioned Nether Regions, or, sweat like >> a hog in July, wash your sheets and pillowcases daily and bite the >> head off anything that moves. >> >> Now, you ask WHY women seem to be more spiteful than men when men get off >> so easy INCLUDING the icing on life's cake: Being able to pee in the >> woods without soaking their socks... >> s >> Now I love being a woman but "Womanhood" would make the G reat Ghandi >> a tad >> crabby. Women are the "weaker sex"? >> >> Yeah right. >> >> Bite me. > > - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:28:28 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: more light relief njc Hi Chook, These quotes have been taken from letters sent to Council. Subject: Letters to the council!!!! People write funny things!!! 1. My bush is really overgrown round the front and my back passage has fungus growing in it. 2. ...and he's got this huge tool that vibrates the whole house and I just can't take it any more. 3. .....it's the dog mess that I find hard to swallow.... 4. I want some repairs done to my cooker as it has backfired and burnt my knob off. 5. I wish to complain that my father hurt his ankle rather badly when he put his foot in his back passage. 6....and their 18 year old son is continually banging his balls against my fence.. 7. I wish to report that tiles are missing from the outside toilet roof. I think it was bad wind the other night that blew them off. 8.My lavatory seat is cracked, where do I stand? 9.I am writing on behalf of my sink, which is coming away from the wall. 10 Will you please send someone to mend the garden path. My wife tripped and fell on it yesterday and now she's pregnant. 11 We are getting married in September and we would like it in the garden before we move into the house. 12 I request permission to remove my drawers in the kitchen. 13 ....50% of the walls are damp, 50% have crumbling plaster and the rest are plain filthy. 14 I am still having problems with smoke in my new drawers. 15 The toilet is blocked and we cannot bathe the children until it is cleared. 16 Will you please send a man to look at my water, it is a funny colour and not fit to drink. 17 Our lavatory seat is broken in half and is now in three pieces. 18 Would you please send a man to repair my spout? I am an old age pensioner and need it badly. 19 I want to complain about the farmer across the road, every morning at 6am his c#ck wakes me up and is now getting too much for me. 20 The man next door has a large erection in the back garden, which is unsightly and dangerous. 21 Our kitchen floor is damp, We have two children and would like a third, so please send someone round to do something about it. 22 I am a single woman living in a downstairs flat and would you please do something about the noise made by the man I have on top of me every night. 23 Please send a man with the right tool to finish off the job and satisfy my wife. 24 This is to let you know that our lavatory seat is broke and we can't get ABC - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: What works for depression? NJC --- StephenToogood wrote: > Thanks sooo much for that post! I relate with that > very much. > 2 people not so long ago were saying I'm too much of > a deep thinker and need > to lighten up. I've been told by many people that I "think too much." What the feck? Am I supposed to get a lobotomy or something? How is it possible to "think too much"? God save us from well-intentioned morons! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #454 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)