From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #453 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 9 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 453 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- FW: joni on BBC4 for UK listers ["Ross, Les" ] Re: What works for depression? [tantra-apso ] Re: Depression and Grief [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder)] Getting to Know You (SJC) [] Rufus NJC [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC ["Cynthia Vickery" ] Thanks and a request [Ed Beauchamp ] Re: Thanks and a request [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Re: Life & death [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Depression (njc) The mighty Wind... ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc ["gene mock" ] NJC Warren Zevon on VH-1 ["Linda Crawford" ] Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: NJC RE: Warren Zevon on VH-1 [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] death & birth njc ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: death & birth njc ["Victor Johnson" ] "Get over it!" (NJC) ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Getting to Know you (SJC) ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: wind (njc) ["Sherelle Smith" ] Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list NJC [PassScribe@aol.com] those posts njc [tantra-apso ] RE: email harrassment njc ["Kate Bennett" ] right? njc [tantra-apso ] RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: wind (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] Fw: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC (for aol members) [Emiliano Subject: FW: joni on BBC4 for UK listers Possibly mostly already seen stuff, but a 'heads up' for the UK listers anyway. Les (London) Joni Mitchell: A Woman of Heart and Mind Channel: BBC4 Date: Friday 12 September Time: 9:00pm to 10:25pm Review The Canadian singer/songwriter tells her story in a series of interviews mixed with performance footage. Joni Mitchell's work remains an inspiration to musicians all over the world and her classic songs have been covered by major artists from James Brown to Judy Collins. Joni Mitchell In Concert Channel: BBC4 Date: Friday 12 September Time: 10:25pm to 10:55pm Review Archive footage of the Canadian chanteuse, recorded before a studio audience in 1970. Featured songs include Chelsea Morning, Cactus Tree and Big Yellow Taxi. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:43:17 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: What works for depression? Suzanne MarcAurele wrote: >Remembering that 99% seem to be too dense to even get depressed! > >S. > > > LOL! thanks for my morning giggle! And you aren't far from the truth either! - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:11 +0100 (BST) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Re: Depression and Grief Having read all the posts about depression, grief and sadness during the past few days I would like to offer my give-away (my cd 'Wounded and Healing')to anyone on the list who'd like it. I have been blessed to receive some lovely post from folk who had a copy at Joni Fest. It is somewhat introspective but you can check it out at www.anitagabrielle.com and see if you fancy it! Love Anita ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:01:58 -0500 From: Subject: Getting to Know You (SJC) Welcome, Linda! It's great to have you here, and great to hear people's "how I discovered Joni" stories. And, LOL: one common thread seems to be parents, significant others, and children who *just don't understand.* ;-) I know I drove my poor mother nearly to desperation by listening to tons of early, "helium-voiced" Joni on vacations during my college years. Years later, she was so accepting of my love for Joni's music that she even volunteered to tape "Woman of Heart and Mind" for me when it aired last year--and did so! But when I asked her how she liked it, she cautiously replied along the lines that it was OK. . . if one liked such things. Ah, well. We "initiated" will simply have to enjoy our particular affinity with one another. ;-) Take care, Mary P. P.S. Mr. Culpepper sounds way cool. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:32:25 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Rufus NJC For all you lucky people in the Montreal area: RUFUS WAINWRIGHT MONTREAL CONCERT EXCLUSIVE Rufus will be performing a very special intimate show in Montreal on September 24th to celebrate the release of Want One. This is a TV taping that will not be going on sale to the general public. We have reserved an exclusive allocation of tickets for fans on the Rufus Wainwright mailing list, which will be going on sale this Wednesday at noon local time. Details of the show are below: Lion d'Or, Montreal Wednesday, September 24th Doors: 18h30 Show: 20h00 Tickets: $20 (CAD) + tax = $23.01/per ticket Exclusive on sale: Wednesday, September 10th, noon Two ticket limit Link to purchase tickets will be available on www.rufuswainwright.com on Wednesday at noon. Tickets are very limited. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:34:41 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC Leni Riefenstahl, innovative filmmaker who created the amazingly powerful "Triumph of the Will," Hitler's propoganda tour de force, has died at 101. Though I despise that her art glorified Hitler's twisted goals, I applaud her absolute unwillingness to let society dictate her place or her ability. May she be remembered for her quest for beauty in all of her work and for the many ways she shaped the art of filmmaking. http://www.leni-riefenstahl.de/eng/index.html Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:44:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Beauchamp Subject: Thanks and a request Hello fellow Joniacs, As a lurking subscriber to the Joni-only list for a while now, I wanted to say publicly that I've gotten a ton of useful information from this list - thank you all very much for taking the time to post. I know everyone is busy these days and it does take some effort (which is basically why I lurk...) but your enthusiasm shows through and I thoroughly enjoy reading the Joni stuff....which brings me to my request... I subscribe to the Joni-only list because I have a limited amount of time to read and my interest is purely in things Joni. I've noticed that the list has gotten a bit loose lately regarding the use of the "NJC" tag. Now, I myself tend to be a bit liberal as to what I think qualifies as Joni content - thoughts on playing dulcimers and odd guitar tunings would qualify as being Joni-related even with no Joni mention, IMO. While it may be interesting and useful information, I'm not sure that a post about foot pressure points to cure depression, as just one example, qualifies. Please understand, I make no judgment on the content of the non-Joni messages (and in fact I think that there have been some messages posted recently about some tragic events affecting us all that override any rules), but there is a place for these, and I'm just mentioning that perhaps some more attention could be paid to the subject line - I know I'd appreciate it. And BTW, my understanding is that only the "NJC" tag will work properly - "VLJC", "No Joni Content", "SJC", or "a wee bit JC", creative as they are, will not be correctly interpreted by the mail server that sorts these things out. Now, would I be pushing my luck to request that only relevant sections of long posts be quoted in replies? Thanks for listening (reading?), and I look forward to reading all of your future Joni posts! Ed __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 11:09:51 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: Thanks and a request Quoting Ed Beauchamp : > > And BTW, my understanding is that only the "NJC" tag > will work properly - "VLJC", "SJC", > or "a wee bit JC", creative as they are, will not be > correctly interpreted by the mail server that sorts > these things out. > But it will let the Joni Only people know that there is Joni content, and the amount, and allow the reader to read, or delete, at will. Joni Only does not mean that there is only Joni content, but that there is Joni content is the post, no matter how small. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:23:17 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Life & death In a message dated 9/9/03 3:01:43 AM, "Linda Crawford" writes: << When we all married and had settled with our own families, he suddenly reappeared -forever sober now- and was ready to join our lives. I found I didn't like him or his behavior and wanted no part of him. When he died, I grieved. I grieved not because of his passing and the things we would no longer be able to do together but for the lifetimes he had missed with his five children growing up. I am sorry he died but for me his death was years ago when he deserted the family. >> Linda, I've heard that same sentiment before regarding similar circumstances and I agree things can never be the same after someone deserts and then tries to return. Some people fail to understand the impact their actions have on other people until it's too late. And their past actions will continue to affect a relationship, no matter how hard everyone tries to forgive & forget. While you may still grieve for Peggy, I'm sure the pleasent memories you have of her will help, in time, to renew your spirit. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 11:28:43 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Depression (njc) The mighty Wind... What is it about the wind? (Beautiful post..Sherelle...thanks for sharing) "Let The Wind Carrey ME" I don't care how down I am ...but when the wind starts stirring...I have almost a new take on life at that moment. IT might just last a few minutes....but this momentary HIGH is very real. It is as almost the wind has washed all the crap...life's minutiae away. And I can feel....FEEL ALIVE. ALIVE!! I usually run outside and try to experience it Any other windy people out there? (and no..not that wind) Bree yeah...you can feel it but can't see it... >Since his death, I have learned to "feel" Ray in my heart. It's much like >feeling the wind blow on your face and in your hair. The wind really is >there even though you can't see it. The next time you feel the it, don't >ignore it. It is a chance to remember your loved one(s). Take the time to >connect the dots. I've always loved windy days, but now I know why. > >Love, >Sherelle > > >>From: "Mark or Travis" >>To: "Sherelle Smith" , >>CC: >>Subject: Re: Depression (njc) >>Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:13:52 -0700 >> >>It is very important that >> > everyone experiencing loss give their minds and bodies a chance to >> > recover a little bit. Slow down and don't try to tackle things >> > "business as usual" . Business is not as usual right now. Allow >> > yourself to grieve in whatever way feel s right for you. Everyone is >> > different. >> >>Very wise words, Sherelle. It is so good to see you posting again! >> >>I know there has been a lot written about the 'stages' of grief. One >>thing I think is important is to be patient with yourself. Don't put >>yourself on a time line. I have a friend who lost his partner about 3 >>and a half years ago to a rare type of bone marrow disease. He was >>completely devastated and had to be medicated in one way or another >>for a long time just to get through the days. At some point, >>ridiculously soon after Denny's death, someone at Bruce's work >>suggested it was time he 'get over it and move on'. Having been >>through the loss of a partner myself, I was incensed at this person's >>insensitivity. Your life is completely changed forever. You don't >>just 'get over it and move on'. >> >>Bruce was convinced when Denny died that he would not be able to >>continue life without Denny. He told me on the phone recently that he >>didn't expect to be alive at this point in time. But he is just now >>beginning to see a new life emerging for himself. Maybe for him it >>took longer than it does for some people. We met in the Denver >>airport when I flew back to the Midwest in June and had a layover >>there. I told Bruce that I suspected that what he & Denny shared and >>what Edward & I shared was a closeness that most married or partnered >>people never really experience. (Mack talked about this recently. I >>really do know what you mean, Mack, about the difference.) When the >>relationship is that intense, you aren't going to 'just get over it >>and move on'. >> >>I have already said this to Mags privately, but Sherelle has said it >>so I'll say it again. Talk. Write to us. Call. There are people >>who will be able to listen and handle whatever you have to say. They >>are there. Once you find those people, they will be your life lines >>and you will count them as blessings for the rest of your life. They >>will get you through it. We will get you through it if you let us. >>(I meant what I said about calling, Mags.) You are never alone, Mags. >> >>Mark >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! >https://broadband.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:38:19 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 << From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: warren zevon passed away last night...i am so sad but happy to know that now he is free from pain...what an amazing journey he shared with us all- in his documentary & his final album...which i plan to get today & listen as i loved what i heard in the documentary...what a gift he gave us all with his songs & the astounding grace & humor he showed in his final hour... may he rest in peace >> If anyone missed it when it was shown before, VH-1 will be re-running the Bio on Warren Zevon tomorrow night (Wednesday); check your local TV guide for time in your area. I also taped an interview (from 2000, right after "Life Will Kill Ya" came out) they re-ran on WFUV Monday night if anyone is interested in a cassette tape copy. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:40:44 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re.: Warren Zevon Tribute song In a message dated 9/9/03 3:01:43 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: David Sadowski Subject: Warren Zevon Tribute I wrote a tribute song to WZ on the day I heard he was terminally ill... and just pulled out the lyric again today for the first time since then. Here it is. - - -Dave >> David, I didn't copy and paste your lyrics (to save space) but others can find them in your previous post if necessary. I just wanted to say how GREAT I found your song... fabulous job. Of course, I'd like to hear the melody too but what I've seen so far is very impressive. Maybe you could perform it at next year's JoniFest? I liked your line, "Have a drink on me, my friend"; please see my post to Bob on this subject. Kenny B P.S. No, I'm not an alcoholic... just like my occasional sip or two. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:40:45 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Warren Zevon << From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out Thanks too for sharing the news about Warren...I was expecting it but had not heard. What an example of artistic dignity he gave us. Let us continue to celebrate laughter, love, and life. Bob >> Ah, yes...we all knew it was coming but I only heard about it Monday at lunchtime (Warren Zevon died Sunday) when WFUV did an "under the covers" segment whereby they played his songs by other people. When I got home from work, I picked out a special glass and poured a little Johnny Walker Black and sipped it as I remembered Warren... my way of saying "good-bye" to some special people. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:42:20 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: NJC RE: Warren Zevon on VH-1 Any chance someone could tape this show, so that someone like me whose cable system doesn't get VH-1 could arrange to get a copy? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > PassScribe@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:38 AM > To: joni@smoe.org; kate@katebennett.com > Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 > > > << From: "Kate Bennett" > Subject: warren zevon > > passed away last night...i am so sad but happy to know that now he is free > from pain...what an amazing journey he shared with us all- in his > documentary & his final album...which i plan to get today & listen as i > loved what i heard in the documentary...what a gift he gave us > all with his > songs & the astounding grace & humor he showed in his final hour... > may he rest in peace > >> > > If anyone missed it when it was shown before, VH-1 will be > re-running the > Bio on Warren Zevon tomorrow night (Wednesday); check your local > TV guide for > time in your area. I also taped an interview (from 2000, right > after "Life > Will Kill Ya" came out) they re-ran on WFUV Monday night if anyone is > interested in a cassette tape copy. > > Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:54:30 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc I had to put a good friend and horse of 35 years down this weekend. You don't take care of someone for 35 years and not feel sad. I guess Warren just needed a good horse to ride. Playing my music very loud these days. later gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 > << From: "Kate Bennett" > Subject: warren zevon > > passed away last night...i am so sad but happy to know that now he is free > from pain...what an amazing journey he shared with us all- in his > documentary & his final album...which i plan to get today & listen as i > loved what i heard in the documentary...what a gift he gave us all with his > songs & the astounding grace & humor he showed in his final hour... > may he rest in peace > >> > > If anyone missed it when it was shown before, VH-1 will be re-running the > Bio on Warren Zevon tomorrow night (Wednesday); check your local TV guide for > time in your area. I also taped an interview (from 2000, right after "Life > Will Kill Ya" came out) they re-ran on WFUV Monday night if anyone is > interested in a cassette tape copy. > > Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:02:51 -0400 From: "Linda Crawford" Subject: NJC Warren Zevon on VH-1 I got the impression somewhere that this show was part 1. Anyone know if there will be a second part? Linda Crawford-in middle Georgia sewbead@starband.net http://jerrycrawford.mystarband.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:06:24 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list << rom: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Fender's Top 100 Guitarists list SJC <> Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. >> Hey, Tim, Wow; the controversy this article has generated. My wife listens to WOR (talk radio) in NYC and they usually have listeners call in about everything from food to politics. On a recent show, EVERYBODY was calling in to complain about the Rolling Stone top 100 guitarists list. People asked, "Where is B.B. King?" One asked, "Joan Jett? Did she actually PLAY that guitar?" I wish I could have taped that show and gotten all the responses. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:09:42 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC RE: Warren Zevon on VH-1 In a message dated 9/9/03 11:42:31 AM, rflynn@frontiernet.net writes: << Any chance someone could tape this show, so that someone like me whose cable system doesn't get VH-1 could arrange to get a copy? >> Okay...I'm already taping it on two VCR's (one for me, one for my son) so I'll just fire up the third VCR and make another tape. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:13:30 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH-1 njc In a message dated 9/9/03 11:53:07 AM, gmock@psyber.com writes: << I had to put a good friend and horse of 35 years down this weekend. You don't take care of someone for 35 years and not feel sad. I guess Warren just needed a good horse to ride. Playing my music very loud these days. later gene >> Sorry to hear about your horse, Gene; I lost my best friend of 14 years when I had to put Corky, the Wonder Dog to sleep... worse day of my life. Remember the good times you had with him/her and it's a bit easier. I hope Warren enjoys the ride. Kenny B (loud music is a good thing, sometimes) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:28:04 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list NJC In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:06:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PassScribe writes: > On a recent show, EVERYBODY was calling in to complain > about the Rolling Stone top 100 guitarists list. People > asked, "Where is B.B. > King?" Well then people showed their stupidity and/or blindness. He was #3 on the list... Bob, who finds BB King as overrated as Clapton NP: John Mayer, "Something's Missing" out today!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:35:48 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: death & birth njc wild! i have a friend who also gave birth to a boy named gabriel on friday! calling all angels! >In the midst of all this - on Friday my friend gave birth to a beautiful, > healthy baby boy named Gabriel. Just another reminder that while there is > death, we are also surrounded by life.> > Love Nikki ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:42:26 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: death & birth njc > i have a friend who also gave birth to a boy named gabriel on friday! > calling all angels! The song below is about angels...you never know when you just might see an angel or even speak to one. ANNOUNCEMENT coming tomorrow about a special deal!!! Victor, overjoyed to hear some happy news Accidental Angel Saw an angel there in a lazy cafi Sitting at a table by the bar She drank her soda with a straw And I thought she looked over at me She was an accidental angel In the way she held her eyes And when she spoke she hardly moved at all But she moved me just the same Saw an angel there at her table all alone Waving her fingers through dark hair And if she was an angel well it wasnt her fault at all Its just the way she was made A vessel from the heart of Gabriel And I should have gone over to say hello But I wasnt quite sure how to talk to an angel And if she happened to look my way Well Id never really looked into the eyes of an angel Saw an angel there upon the threshold of the world An exquisite kind of girl And in her eyes she held the key to everything that is And everything that was and will be And if you filtered out the conversation You could hear the silent sea For she brought the sun down from the heavens Just to calm the violent storms in my heart Chorus City crazy city flashing all its lights at me They keep moving in a steady line So I had to leave behind this angel but I never really left I mean Ive got to get back there She was an accidental angel In the way she held her eyes A vessel from the heart of Gabriel Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:46:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: "Get over it!" (NJC) mary>>But, in a burst of instinctual fury, I knew, somehow, that I had to grieve at my own speed. . .and I did so. and yes, it took a very long time. Some things that were worth caring that much about simply do.<< so beautifully written mary & the a wonderful explanation should anyone ever feel they need to explain...a part of our culture has become so frenetic & callous & shallow that i think many have lost touch with this simple truth... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:16:50 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: Getting to Know you (SJC) Hi Linda, I grew up in Portsmouth, Virginia right across the water from you! I came there in 1969 (my parents were from Virginia) after my father retired from the Air Force. In high school I was introduced to many different types of music. For the first time, I lived in a predominantly black neighborhood and even though I am an African American, I always had a mix of cultures wherever we went. The funny thing is that I grew to love everything equally. I was mesmerized by all the wonderful male groups that came on the scene; The Originals, The Stylistics, Tavares, The Dells, The Spinners andThe Main Ingredient were among many of my favorites. I was also introduced to Yes, Santana, Grand Funk Railroad, and every artist on the Woodstock album in high school, so I managed to strike a balance between the two. I was not aware of Joni Mitchell or Joni Baez until I started my first semester of college in Los Angeles. Even though the city pretty much chewed me up and spit me out, I found Joni there. I also found Dan Fogelberg-Eureka! Welcome and thank you for sharing your story. Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:22:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: email harrassment njc i wasn't sure whether to comment on this or not cuz i don't want to dredge up the unpleasant past...but yesterday i talked to two women who were being harrassed via email by men (not on this list, in my other life! lol)...one was able to take out a restraining order & this stopped the harrassment...the other is hopefully dealing with this through her hr dept as its work related... i only bring this up because i think some action needs to be taken to stop this from continuing, its been 2 years! i am referring to colin's post that andrea was receiving private email from someone who was banned 2 years ago from this list...few people ever get banned from here... my apologies to those who are new & have no idea what this is about... there was a person on this list who was kicked off after repeated warnings to stop & desist...this person is known personally & liked by many here...because in person he is a very likeable guy & talented musician... unfortunately there was another side to him that seemed to come out via private emails- i think they were only sent to women & for a period of time i was one of the unfortunate recipients...the emails were very mean & nasty & at first they scared me (as i didn't know him from adam!) so i always just deleted them immediately...however, i adhered to the email list ettiquette not to post personal posts to the list & not wanting to keep such negative words around, to the trash they went everything changed just before jonifest 01 which we both planned to attend with our spouses...we had some friendly emails about the upcoming fest & i really enjoyed meeting him in person (i am a forgive & forget kind of person so was willing to let the past go)... now i wish i had saved those emails or posted them publically because anyone who did not receive them has NO idea that this person could write such angry stuff & the stuff he wrote in the archives doesn't touch what he said privately...to confuse matters, as i said, his public side is very likeable...but to someone new here (like i was at the time) who gets something privately from him, it is scary! & what really troubles me is that this behavior may still be going on in private & unless something is done it will continue...the archives are there for all to read so it doesn't matter if someone is forwarding digests to him... there are 2 actions i can think of that might stop this if anyone is receiving these emails 1) a restraining order related to emails (i am not sure how this works) 2) posting anything he privately sends to the list to make it public (since he is no longer a member i don't think this email rule applies anymore) however as new people (or i should say women cuz i think it has always been women) join, they may not be aware of the situation & may receive these emails & not know what to think...so the harrassment is allowed to continue with new people (like i was & like andrea was & i wonder who else is getting these?) & yes it can scare people at first...as i said it is the type of email that most just want to immediately delete & forget...but it is one of those things that is still going on!!!! because it is done in private ... what makes me sad is that i know many here miss him & would welcome him back if only he were to take responsibility for why he was banned... i apologize to all for dredging this up but it is something that i believe has gone on far too long & may not stop without some firm action...i hope we can discuss solutions rather than go back into the past & if anyone is receiving strange emails like i've described please speak up! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:31:34 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: wind (njc) Kate wrote: "sherelle, that is so beautiful, thanks!...synchronistically i realized when i wrote something about my mom the other day it was the anniversary of my mother's passing (sept 5) so after she passed i gave everyone in my family a big windchime (from woodstock! where some of her childhood was spent & some of her final happy years too)... because she always said her biggest fear was that we would forget her (she did not fear death itself!) i told everyone to remember her when the wind blew through the chimes... the wind is blowing as i write & the chimes are sounding..." Dear Kate, I am so thrilled and happy that people not only understand what I was trying to say, but that they have their own ritual with the wind to remember loved ones. I thank you for sharing your mother's thoughts. I never realized how important being remembered is until just recently. I have grieved for so long because I didn't allow my mother to be remembered in my heart the way she should have been-the pain was so intense and our "stiff upper lip" family didn't know how to deal with the pain properly. I try not to think of time as wasted or lost. I was told by a good friend just recently that we can never know why experiences happen as they do and for as long as they do, but only that sometimes, it takes time to come to the place where life teaches you a new lesson and to never think of the time as lost or wasted. Boy did I need to hear that! Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:37:55 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC Her Olymiad (is that what it is called in English) was also magnificant. As were her African films she has done in her semi-recluse state. She was an astounding film maker. She also did it for the Nazis. How can someone so gifted be so flawed - another name for that list. I have had mixed feelings about her since I first saw TOTW and that was back in 1970 or so - artist supreme, but what she used her art for, and her not plausable denials of complicty through the years... because she was also a Hitler entourage person... But Leni,. rest in pease, you don't need to deny any more Vince Leni Riefenstahl, innovative filmmaker who created the amazingly powerful "Triumph of the Will," Hitler's propoganda tour de force, has died at 101. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:37:55 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: email harrassment njc Kate Bennett wrote: >i wasn't sure whether to comment on this or not cuz i don't want to dredge >up the unpleasant past...but yesterday i talked to two women who were being >harrassed via email by men (not on this list, in my other life! lol)...one >was able to take out a restraining order & this stopped the >harrassment...the other is hopefully dealing with this through her hr dept >as its work related... > >i only bring this up because i think some action needs to be taken to stop >this from continuing, its been 2 years! i am referring to colin's post that >andrea was receiving private email from someone who was banned 2 years ago >from this list...few people ever get banned from here... > > > Hi Kate-the emails that Andrea sent me were not abusive in any way I could tell.they were 'warnings' to her about the Inner Circle, about how real it is, how Andrea needed to take care that if she said anything considered right wing, she would be unsubbed form the list. It was basically saying that he was a nice guy who got thrown off this list for expressing different opinions. The mails were typically narcissistic, paranoid etc and showed no remorse or responsibility at all. Another point, it wasn't just women who received the nasty posts. He seemed a rather jeckyl/hyde character to me. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:41:28 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: That RS top 100 guitarists list NJC In a message dated 9/9/03 12:28:05 PM, SCJoniGuy writes: << In a message dated 9/9/2003 12:06:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PassScribe writes: > On a recent show, EVERYBODY was calling in to complain > about the Rolling Stone top 100 guitarists list. People > asked, "Where is B.B. > King?" Well then people showed their stupidity and/or blindness. He was #3 on the list... Bob, who finds BB King as overrated as Clapton >> Hummm. could be one of those problems that arise when I get a story from my wife (who listened to the show) ;-) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:47:05 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: those posts njc If you could somehow look up my posts you would see that whatever I had to say I didnt worry about whether it was on the list or not because I could be sarcastic but I would never use expletives and I never called anyone any names. This was what i said. If they hate your politics they will take anything you do, make all sorts of hyperbolic claims and then use THEIR claims as the reason to get rid of you. Forgive me if you feel like I am an interloper but when I got your post emailed to me I felt it was more important to let you know what you are really up against. I wish someone had told me. I wouldnt have wasted my time. Ciao. Marcel - -- I was sent a post that you posted by a current list member. There IS an inner circle. And if you dont agree with them they will find a way to throw you off the list. Jokes aside, it IS true. You must be liberal to stay or a traditionalist conservative who remains silent regardless of anything that certain liberal members say including hateful things. The fact is that not one liberal person has ever been thrown off the list no matter what they say or what names they call people or how many vulgar things or epithets they use. Only conservatives who speak up and they dont even have to call anyone a name. They dont warn people but if any two of the five say you go you will go. I was thrown off the list (in spite of having many friends on the list) a couple years ago for the simple reason that I could effectively debate real issues and they resorted to accusing me of things like "cyberterrorism". And that was for writing a post about Bjork. Satire is funny but I got attacked. Viciously. When I refused to accept their taunts I responded and they went off. This upset a number of people who have continued to send me things that are posted about things that they assume I have an interest in. I ASSURE you there is a small group of insiders that Les Irvin leans on for "advice". If they tell him to get rid of someone because they can not cow or refute that person; that person is 86'd. I told Les Irvin that he owes it to anyone joining the list that they should know that any deviation from the far left ideology sooner or later gets you thrown off. It is absolutely true. They pretend to be all lovey dovey and pat themselves on the back constantly for their "tolerance" but its all a bunch of bull. They do not tolerate anyone who argues (especially) political points of view they disagree with. They love to bash Bush for instance. Try defending him and you will be attacked and eventually rid of. I had alot of friends on the list and because I could state positions well and have alot of knowledge about politics and history I used to drive them nuts. Several people used to appreciate the fact that I would lob a few arguments back at the harpies. Several were really bummed when Les Irvin did what he did. I have been recieveing posts and letters for over two years. 25 people wanted my CDs. So I have a little mailing list. Your comment about "not being in high school anymore". Yeah thats the one. The comments that came with it seemed to indicate that this issue of the existence of the inner circle was coming back. Well it is realer than you think or others may think. The funny thing is it is denied when all Les Irvin has to say is that the job of running the list is trying sometimes and he asks others for their opinions. That could suffice except it turns into a star chamber from time to time. I think people should be told up front that there is not truly freedom of speech and that if they arent liberal they may get attacked.. No liberal has ever been 86'd no matter what they say or do or what lies are proven. That is not right. As for my acerbic wit or sarcasm. I have always allowed others to take the first shot and maybe the first ten shots. Sometimes I used to throw in a gratuitous statement that I knew (as innocuous as that statement might be word wise) would get their shorts in a bunch. Instead of calling them names I didnt have to I could say "Wasnt Nancy Reagan a great human being". Im making this one up because I cant recall a specific but you could look them up. Anyway after about ten just all-out assaults on a gun control thread I printed some government data that blew all their arguments at that time up and they went ballistic. I was called any and every conceivable bad thing. many private off list hateful posts. For printing data. That was the environment. I told them to stop and blocked certain addresses. No one ever got thrown off for that. I actually returned from the New England Fest (at which I played) on the same American Airlines flight that five days later was the one that crashed in Pennsylvania. First morning flight out of Logan Intl. It is true that perhaps things were a bit tense at the time this all happened but the "hate America and all western values" crowd has a prominent place in the JMDL. Should I have been more low keyed? Possibly. Should they have? Yes. Should we all have? Yes but.....I never started anything. Ever. Thats the whole point. People are allowed to say all sorts of incendiary and hateful stuff and no one is supposed to respond. That is what THEY call freedom of speech". They rant. You take it. That just wasnt my nature. I have been dealing with liberals all my life (B&R in SF CA) and was not a politically sensetive person most of my life but after many years seeing the hate and the dysfunctional world view I guess my horoscope took over. I began to read and collect data and articles and books and information. This drives liberals nuts.They have the same relationship to facts and history that vampires have to mirrors. I have written for internet publications on political and economic issues and its fun to write. As for do I miss it? I miss the good stuff and some of the people who are really really nice. Still communicvate with many ona regular basis. I loved the music. Always have. Been doing Jonis stuff for 30 years. Im a long term musician and do many of Jonis songs. have recorded some. I have analyzed her music in detail and rap with JMDLers today about the songs. Im even developing a web site of my own. Sounds complicated but it isnt. Ill let you know when its open which will be in about a month.If you would like to know that is. Happy to discuss Joni Mitchell with you although the only reason I contacted you was to warn you about something that others were decieving you about with respect to the list. I do hope this email didnt ramble too much. Sorry if Im boring you to tears. Marcel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:52:13 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: email harrassment njc > He seemed a rather jeckyl/hyde character to me. < yes, i agree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:53:36 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: right? njc I still have the posts Andrea sent me, and i have now posted them. I don't know if i was right to do so or not. The posts I copied and pasted are entire-except for a few sentences about a lister. I did not copy them as I did not want that lister upset further. These posts, as you can see, are paranoid and untrue but I don't think they rank as his nasties. Maybe I am wrong. All i know is that they disturbed Andrea but she did eventually write to me that he appeared disturbed to her and why would he be banging on about it 2 years later? There is nothing we can do about anyone reading the archives. I find it disturbing tho that people will foward mails to him. This is how Andrea became a recipient of his posts-a current list member forwarded one of her emails to him-when he is a non list member. That upset her. It upsets me. It sort of gives one a creepy feel doesn't it? - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:07:36 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC not really willing to get into a big argument here but... well... i'm a huge riefenstahl fan. like many people at the beginning of the third reich, she supported hitler. and it is true that triumph des willens, fest der vvlker and fest der schvnheit were commissioned by the nazis. still... i think it is a little exaggerated to consider that her character was flawed because of this. other artists (richard strauss, for example) also composed and created under the nazi regime and, like her, soon took a distance from the regime. i read her autobiography and many of her interviews and i never found a single antisemitic statement. she seemed to be beyond good and evil, if you know what i mean. she focused on the beauty of the human form and she devoted more time to portray the nuba tribes in africa than the aryans in germany. i know my reasoning may smack of sophistry but i think artists sometimes do not know who they're working for or serving. in hindsight, everything is clearer. i wish i could explain this better and i hope i won't offend anyone or seem callous about the atrocities of the nazi regime in my opinions about leni. wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:20:50 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: wind (njc) >I was told by a good friend just recently that we can never know why experiences happen as they do and for as long as they do, but only that sometimes, it takes time to come to the place where life teaches you a new lesson and to never think of the time as lost or wasted. Boy did I need to hear that! Sherelle< a wise friend you have & some say that time is not linear or actually irrelevant in the big picture, spirit world anyway! isn't it ironic, in a bittersweet way, that warren zevon's last cd is called 'the wind'...today i am listening & enjoying his wonderful work of art... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:27:57 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC (for aol members) - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ; "Cynthia Vickery" ; Enviado: martes, 09 de septiembre de 2003 21:07 Asunto: RE: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC > not really willing to get into a big argument here but... well... i'm a huge > riefenstahl fan. like many people at the beginning of the third reich, she > supported hitler. and it is true that triumph des willens, fest der vvlker > and fest der schvnheit were commissioned by the nazis. still... i think it > is a little exaggerated to consider that her character was flawed because of > this. other artists (richard strauss, for example) also composed and created > under the nazi regime and, like her, soon took a distance from the regime. i > read her autobiography and many of her interviews and i never found a single > antisemitic statement. she seemed to be beyond good and evil, if you know > what i mean. she focused on the beauty of the human form and she devoted > more time to portray the nuba tribes in africa than the aryans in germany. i > know my reasoning may smack of sophistry but i think artists sometimes do > not know who they're working for or serving. in hindsight, everything is > clearer. i wish i could explain this better and i hope i won't offend anyone > or seem callous about the atrocities of the nazi regime in my opinions about > leni. > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 15:32:55 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: Leni Riefenstahl RIP - NJC Wally, I know for sure you are not insensitive. I also hold very strong views on Straus - married to wagner's daughter, right? Who were they hanging out with... The distance people took in 1945 does not remotely convince me. Too many people died opposing Hitler. No artist exists apart from the political environment in which they lived. Especially artists are not apart from the environment. Riefenstahl was not so stupid as to not know what the artistry of her films was being used for, I give her more credit than that. However, I am still in awe of Riefenstahl's talent as well as Straus' talent. I despise what they did in the years between say somewhere in 1924/1933 and 1945, and the apologetics afterwards. That you and I differ is no thing at all. We know how this debate has raged and people are just going to come to different conclusions on it. I will always think you err on the side on wanting to give much credence to innocence. You will think I err on judging too harshly. So be it. If we all thought alike - but as I type this, my contempt for Riefenstahl's silence and Straus' silence and so many ohters - if silence is all it was and not complicity, which can be charged to both with reason, agree or not - my contempt hardens. My role model is Dietrich Bonhoeffer who would not have felt the level of contempt that I do towards these folks (and probably knew Straus at least) but I picture Bonhoeffer dying at Flossenburg at the Nazi's hands and Straus and Riefenstahl living to old age and something is not right, to say the least. The debate will go on forever. We have read and thought about the view from all sides. We will differ on the persons. We agree on the artistry. And then that raises the question: would you have given an ovation to Polanski at the Oscars? What he did was to one person and was a Holocaust victim. If what Polanski did was bad to one person, what about silence at the death of the 6,000,000, and not only silence, but assiatanc via propaganda and Beyreuth giving folk credence to Nazi mythology? An artist is not excused from opposing evil. Especially an artist is not excused. Vince wally wrote: other artists (richard strauss, for example) also composed and created under the nazi regime and, like her, soon took a distance from the regime. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #453 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)