From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #449 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, September 7 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 449 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: White Stripes NJC ["StephenToogood" ] Re: Laura ["mike pritchard" ] Re: White Stripes NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE ["mike pritchard" ] Re: njc Re: Laura now White Stripes [Catherine McKay ] Re: njc shaking off futility [Catherine McKay ] Re: andrea njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: guitar tunning and covers of course [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Re: White Stripes NJC [amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk] Shadows & Light DVD drawing [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Hejira (long) ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: andrea njc [tantra-apso ] Re: andrea njc [tantra-apso ] Re: Best joni opening lines [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out ["J.David Sapp" ] Re: (NJC) Andrea Gloria Erchak [vince ] Re: njc Re: Laura now White Stripes ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: njc shaking off futility [cul heath ] Springsteen ticket!!! (NJC) [] Re: njc shaking off futility ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: guitar tunning and covers of course [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Hejira (long) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Best opening line [John Sprackland ] Need a Spelling (NJC) [Lindsay Moon ] Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE [Emiliano ] Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE ["StephenToogood" ] Fender's Top 100 Guitarists list SJC ["Timothy Spong" ] free man in paris njc [tantra-apso ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:18:29 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: White Stripes NJC From: "Mark or Travis" > PS: anybody here listen to The White Stripes? I got my sister to get me 'White Blood Cells' for Christmas a couple of years a go. It's not a bad album. That Jack is really full of life and despite what anyone says I really like his voice. It's a shame that 'Dead Leaves On The Dirty Ground' wasn't as succesful as the other singles 'cos I think that one rocked the most from that album. Steve NP: Both Sides Now - Terry Gorda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:17:15 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Laura PS: anybody here listen to The White Stripes? No, but I have drunk a fair few of 'em mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:21:18 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: White Stripes NJC In a message dated 07/09/2003 10:20:47 GMT Daylight Time, amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk writes: > I got my sister to get me 'White Blood Cells' for Christmas a couple of > years a go. It's not a bad album. I had a most peculiar dream last night: I went to see the White Stripes in concert, and instead of Meg White on drums, it was Madonna!! I regret to report that she sucked :-) Azeem in London NP: 4th day of England v South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:31:08 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE >>Itaxo (sic) & Daniel Perex (sic) - A very sincere performance - do you know what nationality the singer is?<< I don't know if Itxaso's surname is the same as Daniel's but she is, as Bob said, Spanish. I would go further and suggest that judging by her first name (also spelt Itsaso sometimes) she is from the Basque Country. Her name means 'sea' in Euskera (Basque) and in Castilian (Spanish) she would be called 'Mar'. Maybe Emiliano has more info about her and Daniel? mike in barcelona ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 12:23:12 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: andrea njc Obvious i did not read thru all the archives before my post. Andrea and I conversed a fair bit. Disturbingly, our last round of posts concerned her getting posts from Deste. She sent me all these posts concerning the Inenr Cicrle and how in Deste's mind it is very real and why he is no longer on the jmdl. Andrea was understandably confused by these posts, especially given her state of spirit. Do not misunderstand, i am NOT saying this had anything to do with her dcecision. I just can;t believe this person is still spreading his poison, especially to vulnerable people. Andrea was upset by it and understandably did not know what to do think about it. tho she did read thru old archives and was better able to see where the poster was at. Andrea I am sure is at peace now. We had a lot in common, we understood eachother as best one can thru email, which can really be more open then real time talking. I want to point out that NO ONE, but NO ONE, is responsible for Andrea's descision, not even herself. There is nothing any of us could have done to stop her. It is a terrible disease, excruiatingly painful. ending it thru death, is often the only seen soultion and one that cannot be judged. Pain such as this disease causes is intolerable and it is a wonder more of us don't end it that way. However, there is hope. people can work their way thru it. Not on their own. It takes emormous strength and power to continue the search for the right help. Unfortuntately, that help is not easy to find. There are many 'professionsals' out there who know little about how to really help. Drugs, whilst they may offer some releif, are not the answer. A good therapist, woithout their own agenda, who is able to love their client and guide them, rather than lable them and put them in a box, is what is needed yet such T's are very hard to find. could we, any of us, have helped Andrea more? If we were perfect, of course we could have . But we are not. and our love is not perfect either. we may feel compasison and love for someone but not know how to use that in action. Love is about action, not about feeling. I do believe we can love others better. However, it takes a very special sort of person who can do this. That isn't me and it isn't you. To be able to love in that way, we have to be clear of shit ourselves, to really know what love is, to love ourselves, and to love others without all the baggage. Sometimes love is not what we would think. Sometimes it is just letting go.Other times it is being tough. Other times it is doign nothing, just being there. Andrea will now be surrounded by love and will be receiving the healing she needed. Do not fear for her. Whatever God you believe in, God is love and she will not be punsihed . she will be held safe and secure, all her fear will vanish. Her light will shine and she will shed the darkness and emerge like a butterfly from it's cocoon. Bless you Andrea, you have returned home, returned to the light and love that is the home of all of us. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:26:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc Re: Laura now White Stripes --- David Rahall wrote: > (raises hand) Just saw them on snl, too. > > David > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark or Travis" > > > > PS: anybody here listen to The White Stripes? Muller (I'm sure it was Muller) posted this a while back. And then Queen Lulu posted another link to the main site of these nuts who do these odd videos featuring kittens and so on, sort of in the style of Terry Gilliam from the Monty Python days. Some of these are bizarre and funny - others are just plain bizarre, but here you go: http://www.rathergood.com/punk_kittens/ ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:39:37 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: njc Re: Laura now White Stripes >Muller (I'm sure it was Muller) posted this a while >back. No, 'twas not I, I think it was Jan...but I remember the kitty video - it was hilarious and the song rocked. As for the Stripes, they're great - their "Elephant" will end up the year high atop many critic's top tens and rightfully so. The hooks are just incredible, hard to get out of your head and not that you want to. It reminds me of the mid-sixties garage stuff that was just for fun, it's a good trend that we're seeing with a lot of these bands: Strokes/Vines/Hives/Kings Of Leon etc. Bob NP: Joni, "Me & My Uncle" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:42:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: andrea njc >Disturbingly, our last round of posts >concerned her getting posts from Deste. She sent me all these posts >concerning the Inenr Cicrle and how in Deste's mind it is very real and >why he is no longer on the jmdl. This is very creepy & evil...but typical to blame others for things that happen instead of ourselves. Thanks for a great post Colin, and for all you did for Andrea. Welcome back. Bob NP: Joni & Oscar, "Prithee, Pretty Maiden" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 06:01:37 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: njc shaking off futility Mark of MarkorTravis wrote: At some point, ridiculously soon after Denny's death, someone at Bruce's work suggested it was time he 'get over it and move on'. Having been through the loss of a partner myself, I was incensed at this person's insensitivity. Your life is completely changed forever. You don't just 'get over it and move on'. - ----------------- Hear Hear, Mark! When Dan, my lover of 9 years, died suddenly in a car crash in 1996 I was devastated emotionally and since Dan and I worked together for our contracting company, his death meant a collapse of economics as well. I know you will understand what I mean when I talk about the emotional roller coaster one goes on for varying lengths of time after the sudden death of a significant other. Mine went on intensely (instant sobbing in public 0 to 60 anywhere anytime without apparent triggers) for about 3 years and then tapered off over the next two. There is no way I could have predicted that I would be affected so intensely nor was there, I now realize, anyway I could have avoided or short-circuited the process. Even to this day I get the occasional episode of sobbing, but it is more under control and never in public. I had to battle the naive who, as you mentioned in the case of your friend expected me to use some common sense and/or willpower to get myself back into the swing of things and move on with my life. I couldn't even look at a tool without falling into a depression or melancholy reverie about Dan being gone let alone work with them or move on with my life...what life? Who cares about the petty bullshit that makes up our work-a-day lives?... in that state of mind its all "paper the walls to keep our gut reactions hid" stuff. I think people who say things like that are people who don't like confronting death to begin with and are less interested in the survivor's welfare than with trying to get things "back to normal" so they don't feel uncomfortable. Its actually pretty selfish. Now I'm at a point where I just don't want to think about depression and death any more. I have reached my fatigue with both issues and that's the main reason for my lack of comments about Andrea. The other is that I am a firm believer in suicide as a as a perfectly rational option that doesn't have to include depression or other negative emotions in the script. I do feel saddened that there are people who are deeply affected by her death in a painful way. But since I didn't really know here personally, I can't judge whether her choice was rational or not. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:15:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: njc shaking off futility --- cul heath wrote: > I had to battle the naive who, as you mentioned in > the case of your > friend expected me to use some common sense and/or > willpower > to get myself back into the swing of things and > move on with my life. I > couldn't even look at a tool without > falling into a depression or melancholy reverie > about Dan being gone let > alone work with them or move on with my life...what > life? > Who cares about the petty bullshit that makes up our > work-a-day lives?... > in that state of mind its all "paper the walls to > keep our gut reactions > hid" stuff. I think people who say things like that > are people who don't > like confronting death to begin with and are less > interested in the > survivor's welfare than with trying to get things > "back to normal" so > they don't feel uncomfortable. Its actually pretty > selfish. I think you're right. The ones that want YOU to move on are the people that don't know or don't want, or just can't, deal with it, so they'd rather avoid it, and so they really just want you to go away so they can get on with their own lives. I'd say most of those people haven't yet dealt with such a loss, or that they've successfully repressed it and don't want to take the cork off that particular bottle again. Ultimately it's their loss, because we are feeling beings and I don't think you can keep that stuff down forever or it will come out in other ways. Yeah, you can go on and do the day-to-day things and eventually you'll find some kind of comfort, maybe even joy, in something in your life again, and that's why you go through the motions, I guess - it's pretty much the only viable option sometimes. I'm sorry for your loss. I can only imagine how hard it must be. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:21:32 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: andrea njc In a message dated 07/09/2003 12:25:12 GMT Daylight Time, tantraapso@btopenworld.com writes: << Andrea and I conversed a fair bit. Disturbingly, our last round of posts concerned her getting posts from Deste. She sent me all these posts concerning the Inenr Cicrle and how in Deste's mind it is very real and why he is no longer on the jmdl. Andrea was understandably confused by these posts, especially given her state of spirit. Do not misunderstand, i am NOT saying this had anything to do with her dcecision. I just can;t believe this person is still spreading his poison, especially to vulnerable people. >> Poison is the right word, Colin. On the one hand, I'm gobsmacked that Marcel is still making mischief like this, yet on the other, it seems entirely in character that he should still be utterly convinced of his rightness, and secure in his total refusal to accept responsibility for the despicable conduct that ensured his banning from the list; this was not only justified, but actually came after a lot of slack was given to him. He had plenty of chances. If you're reading this on the archives Marcel, for Christ's sake let it go. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:33:14 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re: guitar tunning and covers of course Thanks for letting me talk a bit about my passion Steve! My apologies to the rest of you although I guess you've deleted it by now. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - --------------------------------------------- Bob, No apologies! Your passion has taken me off on a musical history tree of artist and recordings. I could sit in lectures from you daily to try to gather up half your covers knowledge. I think Joni would be thrilled and amazed by your endeavors, right up there with Henry Lewy and Joel Bernstein as far as documenting things of her career. You have compiled a history catalogue like no one ever has. Your passion is evident even up there on the stage when you perform." Keep talking, I'm listening". Didn't Frasier use that line? Now how do I order covers number 44? Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 15:36:37 +0200 (CEST) From: amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk Subject: Re: Re: White Stripes NJC Scary! I think I would have asked for a refund. Steve Message date : Sep 07 2003, 11:22 AM From : AzeemAK@aol.com To : amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk, joni@smoe.org Copy to : Subject : Re: White Stripes NJC In a message dated 07/09/2003 10:20:47 GMT Daylight Time, amelio@sev47.fsnet.co.uk writes: > I got my sister to get me 'White Blood Cells' for Christmas a couple of > years a go. It's not a bad album. I had a most peculiar dream last night: I went to see the White Stripes in concert, and instead of Meg White on drums, it was Madonna!! I regret to report that she sucked :-) Azeem in London NP: 4th day of England v South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:58:30 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Shadows & Light DVD drawing I was gonna keep this little secret to myself ;~) Jonimitchell.com is having a drawing. Go over there and enter before September 15th. rosie in nj NP: Let Me Down Hard, John Eddie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:14:10 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Hejira (long) Well, we're all unintentionally eloquent from time to time! Hejira as an epic poem is more in the tradition of the Odyssey than the Iliad--though obviously from a differently gendered perspective. The narrative of the album goes full circle from the "white lines on the free, freeway" to the "refuge of the roads," with the speaker of the poem (we might call her Joni, but she's a speaker--or rather singer--nevertheless)having been changed in both profound and subtle ways as she rolls westward, eventually to home. (Aside--I've heard that the Blue Hotel Room is in the Tybee Island Hilton, now torn down, near Savannah--coast to coast, as the poet says). So in the sense that it involves the heroine/protagonist's exile and return, it's epic. For our speaker, Joni, the task is to "wrestle with [her] great big ego"--and the hitcher, prisoner of the white lines, ultimately is no less a trickster than "Coyote." Though what she learns is that there is some value in her drinking, womanizing friend's advice that "heart and humor and humility/. . . will lighten up your heavy load." While the friend only "mirrors" her "back simplified," the calendar in the service station certainly puts that great big ego in perspective. Now, here's why I like "Amelia" as the best lyric moment. (Epic generally addresses society and history beyond an individual's perceptions or concerns). In a lyric, a personal poem (like Sappho's) meant to be sung to a lyre, generally a metaphor or some other figure of speech controls the shorter performance--in this case, the speaker's comparison of herself with Amelia Earhart (a comparison, the speaker ultimately tempers with her own recognition that the comparison is somewhat grandiose). In fact, following "Coyote," it's the first foray into wrestling with the ego that is a major theme of the epic dimensions of the whole album. Look at the first "stanza" of Amelia: I was driving across the burning desert When I spotted six jet planes Leaving six white vapor trails across the bleak terrain It was the hexagram of the heavens it was the strings of my guitar Amelia it was just a false alarm Six planes, six vapor trails, heaven's hexagram, six guitar strings. There a kind of compression, economy, resonance of imagery characteristic of good lyric poetry here. But also, the speaker's stance is thoughtful and self-questioning, but not self-lacerating in the tradition of the worst imitators of the confessional school. In the stanza where Amelia, Icarus and the speaker come together, the speaker's recognition is that it's a "false alarm" and perhaps even inappropriate for her to attach her ego to mythical or historical heroes like Amelia (who nevertheless it the muse of this poem) or Icarus. She returns to and alludes to a "simpler" time in her own poetic career: "clouds" no longer seen from both sides now, but she has spent her whole life lost in them, "at icy altitudes" and of course, she pulls into the Cactus Tree motel. Note the neat closure of the lyric poem as it returns to it's beginning: 747s and geometric (hexagrams?) farms. I love each poem within the long poem Hejira, but this one seems to me to be the most finely crafted, as I hope I've suggested (though in haste, and somewhat incompletely, I'm afraid). Richard > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > Murphycopy@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 1:15 AM > To: "Richard Flynn"; SCJoniGuy@aol.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Best joni opening lines > > > Richard wrote to Muller: > > << Must go to be now. >> > > Wow, Richard -- deep! And the most poignant and appropriate typo > of this sad week. > > Earlier, I thought Muller was saying that he thought "Hejira" was > the most poetic *song* from the "Hejira" album. To me, it's > nearly a toss-up between "Hejira" and "Amelia," but "Amelia" wins > because it hits me right in the heart and soul, whereas "Hejira" > has a little bit more of a cerebral feeling. I would love to hear > your thoughts on the two songs, as well as your thoughts about > the enire album's epic poem-ness. > > Must go to be now myself! > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:33:24 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: andrea njc AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > >Poison is the right word, Colin. On the one hand, I'm gobsmacked that Marcel >is still making mischief like this, yet on the other, it seems entirely in >character that he should still be utterly convinced of his rightness > Perhaps no one else has noticed, but i don't think he needs to read the archives. Some of the Joni list mail is cc'd to him-meaning his addy is part of the cc list. I find that repugnant and should, for decency, be stopped by the person doing it. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:36:42 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: andrea njc SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >>Disturbingly, our last round of posts >>concerned her getting posts from Deste. She sent me all these posts >>concerning the Inenr Cicrle and how in Deste's mind it is very real and >>why he is no longer on the jmdl. >> >> > >This is very creepy & evil...but typical to blame others for things that >happen instead of ourselves. > narcissism is a difficult thing to recognize and extrememly difficult to treat. It can result in evil tho i wouldn't classify the person as evil. narcisism casues much grief to others, but alos the person with the condition. > >Thanks for a great post Colin, and for all you did for Andrea. > I did very little for Andrea-we shared some. She loved her dogs. They will wonder where their mum has gone but they too will be okay. > Welcome back. > thank you. > >Bob > >NP: Joni & Oscar, "Prithee, Pretty Maiden" > > > - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 12:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: Best joni opening lines Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > But if you don't mind explaining, what's the difference between an epic > poem > (I know like Beowulf or Homer) and a lyric poem? > > Bob, always up for education Let me teach you tonight........ An epic poem is about the story, a lyric poem is about the words and imagery. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:56:36 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out This to me is just one of the AMAZING things about Let's Sing Out. We see the transformation from Joan Anderson to the Joni Mitchell we all love. But it is not just her countenance that changed. I attribute it to her musical genius which grew so fast from say '65 to the recording of Mingus - its mind blowing and unprecedented. Look at the songwriting. Favorite Colour from '65 - while well intentioned is to me very rudimentary, almost a child's song. While Just Like Me from '66 is gorgeous Joni that would have fit on any album thru FTR. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:03:54 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: (NJC) Andrea Gloria Erchak Andrea was of course remembered in the Prayers of the People this morning at worship. (the Rev) Vince Lori Fye wrote: >SARATOGA SPRINGS -- Andrea Gloria Erchak of Saratoga Springs died >Monday, Sept. 1, 2003, at her home. She was 49. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:24:08 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: njc Re: Laura now White Stripes SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: . The hooks are just incredible, hard to > get out of your head and not that you want to. It reminds me of the > mid-sixties garage stuff that was just for fun, This is my perception as well. I get a huge kick out of 'Elephant'. I think there's a lot of talent there. It will be interesting to see if it grows and matures and where it will go if it does. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:32:54 -0400 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: andrea njc Colin wrote: << Disturbingly, our last round of posts concerned her getting posts from Deste. >> Andrea did share this information with other listers, Colin. How creepy to think of an emotinally fragile woman receiving e-mail from this ruthless thug, who was once very accurately described as a cyber-rapist by a JMDL member. If any other women here are getting e-mail from him I would suggest that they check out the archives for the period following the Sept. 11 attacks. Read for yourself -- in his own words -- why he has is no longer welcome here, and then decide whether this is the kind of person you want anything to do with. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:39:54 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Depression (njc) > i took a week off after my mom died, to take care of the memorial > arrangements (i was the oldest & the geographically closest)...i'd > gone into work the day she passed away to make sure my work was > covered & got to her just in time before she slipped into > unconsciousness...so about a month after her death when it was time > for review & raises it was mentioned that i'd taken quite a lot of > time off that year (my vacation time plus my bereavement time of > which i had accumulated far more days than i could ever use over the > years)...the person had never been in my situation & had no > idea...that was the beginning of my escape plan from that job! > > i had a similar situation to working for someone who had no children > & who told me when my young child was sick with a fever & i had to > stay home (without pay) that i should just 'find someone to take care > of him'...right This is just soooooo f*cked up as far as I'm concerned. When Edward was sick, I had called into work several times for various reasons. At some point I had to tell my boss what was going on. His response was that I should use my vacation time when I had to take time off to be with my dying partner. Vacation time! Great vacation! After Eddy died I had very little vacation left. I was told I could use whatever time I had left plus 3 days *without pay*. Not meaning to turn this into a 'gay' thread but this is just another example of being a second class citizen. If it had been my lawfully wedded wife, I would have been paid for those 3 days as a bereavement benefit and I'm sure would have been cut a lot more slack than I was. My work had not been the best for some time what with all the stress in my life and wasn't great for sometime after. Of course my *sshole boss brought it up in my next review and cautioned me that things were better but if they hadn't improved, I would have been in trouble. And this man was fond of telling people how different he was away from work and what a godly, compassionate person he really was! Horse sh*t! Sorry for the rant, folks. But I hear you loud and clear, Kate. It amazes me sometimes just how callous people can be. I wanted to ask my boss how he would feel if he lost his wife. I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference. Like you said, Kate, some people just don't get it if they haven't been through it themselves. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 10:46:11 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: Re: njc shaking off futility Catherine McKay wrote: --- cul heath wrote: I think people who say things like that are people who don't like confronting death to begin with and are less interested in the survivor's welfare than with trying to get things "back to normal" so they don't feel uncomfortable. Its actually pretty selfish. I think you're right. The ones that want YOU to move on are the people that don't know or don't want, or just can't, deal with it, so they'd rather avoid it, and so they really just want you to go away so they can get on with their own lives. I'd say most of those people haven't yet dealt with such a loss, or that they've successfully repressed it and don't want to take the cork off that particular bottle again. Ultimately it's their loss, because we are feeling beings and I don't think you can keep that stuff down forever or it will come out in other ways. Yeah, you can go on and do the day-to-day things and eventually you'll find some kind of comfort, maybe even joy, in something in your life again, and that's why you go through the motions, I guess - it's pretty much the only viable option sometimes. I'm sorry for your loss. I can only imagine how hard it must be. Catherine Toronto ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction Thanx ...but I've managed to level off for the most part. I feel me more than anything else and luckily, I like who I am for the most part , there's a few jerks and demons in here but they're quite brief and transitory. Mostly I'm self-entertaining and habitually creative so I've drawn on those things to stabilize over these last years. One of the big lessons I learned from all the trauma (and I think it was at the source of my difficulty dealing with Dan's death and "letting go" as it were) is that we are never in control of anything no matter how much we may think that we are. It took me quite a while to relinquish my need for "sense of control". The sudden death of an intimate pulls the rug out from everything you held fixed and true. The psychological damage survivors experience during the grieving period is essentially a loss of center... I'm sure to find comfort and even joy...but I don't expect I'll be involved in an intimate relationship anytime soon, or possibly ever again, but hey... ..."when he's got midnight moon and midday sun sand and sea its the same as having you"... I basically go thru the motions because I think life is just the coolest thing ever and in terms of those moments when stress or harried attitudes or ennui squared would have walk to the edge of the cliff to face the decision of "should I stay or should I go", I always figure its not my cliff, so why should I jump? Instead I just throw all my chickens in the air and watch how they land . I'm happy you wrote me. Thanx. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:51:08 -0500 From: Subject: Springsteen ticket!!! (NJC) To all: I have for sale ONE ticket to see The Boss at Miller Park in Milwaukee on Saturday, September 27 at 7 p.m., in the grandstand near the press box: Row 9, Seat 7 or 8. I will be using the other ticket. I'm selling the ticket in question for exactly what I paid for it: $84.75 (includes tax and charges). SOOOOO--if anyone would like to accompany yours truly to see Springsteen and company two weeks and six days from now--but who's counting--speak now, or forever hold your peace! It should be a lot of fun. Rosie, wanna fly in from NJ???! Take care, Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:29:52 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: njc shaking off futility > Catherine McKay wrote: > > --- cul heath wrote: > > I think people who say things like that > are people who don't like confronting death to begin with and are > less interested in the survivor's welfare than with trying to get > things "back to normal" so they don't feel uncomfortable. Its > actually pretty selfish. > > I think you're right. The ones that want YOU to move > on are the people that don't know or don't want, or > just can't, deal with it, so they'd rather avoid it, > and so they really just want you to go away so they > can get on with their own lives. I'd say most of those > people haven't yet dealt with such a loss, or that > they've successfully repressed it and don't want to > take the cork off that particular bottle again. I have grown apart from somebody who used to be one of my most intimate friends because of this, Catherine. Her daughter was about 11 years old when Edward died and she didn't tell her that he had AIDS or even that he was sick. I was present at this child's birth. I lived with this friend in the same house with the man she eventually married and is the father of her two children. We were very close. The day Edward died I called her and wanted very badly to see her. She basically told me I couldn't come to the house because she hadn't told her daughter anything about Edward's illness. I had to wonder why. What did she think she was protecting her from? Eventually, her husband brought the poor kid to the funeral home and she was pretty broken up about it so I guess somebody finally told her at least that Edward was dead. My friend showed up the day of the memorial service sobbing. I guess I was supposed to comfort her. In the months that followed, I always got the feeling that she didn't really want to discuss what I was going through. The thing is that this person was in a horrible accident when she was a young teenager. A train hit the car that she, her mother, her sister and brother were all in. Her mother died and my friend had not been expected to live through the night. She has told me that she doesn't remember anything about this accident and maybe that's just as well. Maybe death is just too painful for her to think about because of this awful thing that happened to her at a very impressionable age. But ever since Edward's illness and death we have grown farther and farther apart. I sometimes wonder if I should tell her how I feel about it and have the whole thing out but I have never been able to do it. It's been ten years now. We live maybe 2 or 3 miles from one another and maybe see one another once or twice a year. Our communication via phone has tapered off almost as much as well. So maybe it isn't lack of experience or compassion that causes people to not be able to handle another person's grief. I don't know. I think I could forgive this but the whole attitude about Edward's illness and some hedging with her daughter about my relationship with Edward prior to that have always left me uneasy. It was something I never expected from this person. If anyone has any thoughts about this, I would appreciate hearing them. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 14:48:55 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: guitar tunning and covers of course > Your passion has taken me off on a musical history tree of > artist and recordings. Wow - thanks David! Such kind words, but not surprising knowing what a good soul you are. And you're right...doing the research and finding these things in the first place has been an incredible journey for me. > Now how do I order covers number 44? Well of course ALL volumes are available (I am working on remastering a couple of early volumes) for blanks/postage or cost for same. You can either Paypal me or mail me costs, or send as many blanks as you want with return postage. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 14:55:40 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira (long) > (though in haste, and > somewhat incompletely, I'm afraid). That was quite a nice piece, Richard - thanks for taking the time to put it down. Incomplete? Of course, as I think one could write volumes about the lyricism of this record. And the same technique that you credit to Amelia (the closure referencing the beginning) can be given to Hejira as well, with the lines I'm travelling in some vehicle, I'm sitting in some cafe A defector from the petty wars That shellshock love away/Until love sucks me back that way Almost a resignation of her fate, like saying she's a prisoner of the white lines of the free way...I've never heard of Hejira referred to as an epic poem, but now I see that it is. Thanks again, Bob NP: Lucinda, "Am I Too Blue" 11/19/99 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:04:12 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out > This to me is just one of the AMAZING things about Let's Sing >Out. We see the transformation from Joan Anderson to the Joni >Mitchell we all love. Yes, & I suppose I assumed incorrectly that she hadn't married Chuck yet in Oct. 65 which is why she was introduced as "Joni Anderson", but as Bob points out that is incorrect, so thanks Bob for correcting that. But how telling that she chooses to be introduced with her maiden name as opposed to her married name, probably thinking in that "I can get out of this" mentality. Anyway, as for the year between Oct '65/Oct '66, I don't guess that anything overly traumatic happened to her EXCEPT for the fact that she probably was beginning to feel trapped in an oppressive and loveless marriage. You can almost see the weight of it (at times) on her face during some of those '66 performances. > Look at the songwriting. Favorite Colour from '65 - while well intentioned is > to me very rudimentary, almost a child's song. While Just > Like Me from '66 is > gorgeous Joni that would have fit on any album thru FTR. Good point, David...as much as I loved hearing a "new" Joni song, when I heard her use the "glove/love" rhyme, I knew that she was still beginning, but like you say a year later when we hear "Blue On Blue", "Just Like Me", "Urge For Going" we see a tremendous amount of artistic growth. Bob NP: Lucinda, "Lake Charles" 11/19/99 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:33:41 +0100 From: John Sprackland Subject: Best opening line For me, probably "He bought her diamonds for her throat..." - I just love the way Joni slows down and relishes the rhythm of those words. John Southport, UK NP: 'Land/Man(?) Beyond the Moon' The Chesterfields Kings on wfmu.org... crazy! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:50:38 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Need a Spelling (NJC) Okay, I've exhausted my knowledge of searcing dictionaries (standard and slang) on the internet and am trying to find a spelling for an expression "criminy!" or "crimony!" sort of used as a softer swear word like darn it! Most dictionaries only give me the alternate spelling of the mushroom which is spelled crimini. I've gone so far as to search nick.com for my kids' cartoon show, Hey Arnold, on which a character named Helga (my favorite) uses the expression all the time in her utter and complete exasperation with everyone, "Oh, crimony!" but I don't know how it's spelled. Would any of you guys who are official librarians or somehow reference savvy let me know? (It's in something I'm proofreading.) Thanks! Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:54:55 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "mike pritchard" Asunto: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE > I don't know if Itxaso's surname is the same as Daniel's but she is, as Bob > said, Spanish. I would go further and suggest that judging by her first name > (also spelt Itsaso sometimes) she is from the Basque Country. Her name means > 'sea' in Euskera (Basque) and in Castilian (Spanish) she would be called > 'Mar'. Maybe Emiliano has more info about her and Daniel? > mike in barcelona Hi, Mike, Bob, Steve & all you too! I didn't have any idea Itxaso means "sea"! I confess there are only two basque (euskera) words I know, and I don't even remember them at this moment :-) As for the info, Please allow me to re-send my post from Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 23:46:10 Well, I must confess I don't know Itxaso (accompanied at guitar by Daniel P'erez and by Gorka Beni'tez at sax): She's obiously (by her name) from Euskadi (Basque country) and very very few basques singers are known throughout the whole country In her web page I found that these themes belong to her first album "Lur Berria - New land" (published by Fresh Sound Records): she sangs 5 songs in english and the rest in euskera: her language that, unless spanish, galician, catalonian and other euro languages isn't "romance" (latin rooted): in fact, is from unknown source, and apparently more ancient than greek. Also in the web (http://www.itxaso-newland.com) one very esteemed critic, Pablo Zu'nyiga says: "De entre los cinco restantes temas " wrapped around your finger" de Sting, la sugerente "you're my inspiration" o el esta'ndar "polkadots & moonbeams" cabe destacarse la doble dedicacio'n a Joni Mitchell en "Cherokee Louise" y "Night ride home". Ambos pasajes permiten comprobar la afortunada influencia que la gran dama canadiense ha ejercido sobre Itxaso." (among the 5 other themes [...] one must underline the double dedication to Joni Mitchell in "CL" & "NRH". Both passages allow us to test the fortunate influence that the great canadian dame exerted upon Itxaso) Well, that's all by now, amigos! Yours: Emiliano ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:01:54 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE Well that's cleared that up! Thank you Emiliano. Steve NP: Cherokee Louise - Itaxaso & Daniel Perez - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emiliano" To: "JMDL" ; "mike pritchard" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 8:54 PM Subject: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE > ----- Mensaje original ----- > De: "mike pritchard" > Asunto: Re: guitar NJC, now covers OF COURSE > > I don't know if Itxaso's surname is the same as Daniel's but she is, as > Bob > > said, Spanish. I would go further and suggest that judging by her first > name > > (also spelt Itsaso sometimes) she is from the Basque Country. Her name > means > > 'sea' in Euskera (Basque) and in Castilian (Spanish) she would be called > > 'Mar'. Maybe Emiliano has more info about her and Daniel? > > mike in barcelona > > Hi, Mike, Bob, Steve & all you too! > I didn't have any idea Itxaso means "sea"! I confess there are only two > basque (euskera) words I know, and I don't even remember them at this moment > :-) > As for the info, Please allow me to re-send my post from Date: Mon, 02 Jun > 2003 23:46:10 > > Well, I must confess I don't know Itxaso (accompanied at guitar by Daniel > P'erez and by Gorka Beni'tez at sax): > She's obiously (by her name) from Euskadi (Basque country) and very very few > basques singers are known throughout the whole country > > In her web page I found that these themes belong to her first album "Lur > Berria - New land" (published by Fresh Sound Records): she sangs 5 songs in > english and the rest in euskera: > her language that, unless spanish, galician, catalonian and other euro > languages isn't "romance" (latin rooted): in fact, is from unknown source, > and apparently more ancient than greek. > > Also in the web (http://www.itxaso-newland.com) one very esteemed critic, > Pablo Zu'nyiga says: > "De entre los cinco restantes temas " wrapped around your finger" de Sting, > la sugerente "you're my inspiration" o el esta'ndar "polkadots & moonbeams" > cabe destacarse la doble dedicacio'n a Joni Mitchell en "Cherokee Louise" y > "Night ride home". Ambos pasajes permiten comprobar la afortunada influencia > que la gran dama canadiense ha ejercido sobre Itxaso." > (among the 5 other themes [...] one must underline the double dedication to > Joni > Mitchell in "CL" & "NRH". Both passages allow us to test the fortunate > influence that the great canadian dame exerted upon Itxaso) > > Well, that's all by now, amigos! > Yours: Emiliano ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:13:16 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Hejira (long) I agree with you Bob about Hejira's nearly inexhaustible epic lyricism, and I hope I didn't imply that the wonderful title track was inferior. It contains in microcosm the themes of the entire work, as well as its ultimate humility: "Well I looked at the granite markers Those tribute to finality to eternity And then I looked at myself here Chicken scratching for my immortality" Not to mention Jaco's bass line--as lyrical and expressive as Joni's lyrics and melody. When it used to be that you'd turn over the record after this & get "Song for Sharon," you'd get a more narrative and home-like (or Heimlich) flipside to the Unheimlich (uncanny) version of the way we're sucked back by love. Side 2, in fact, comments on side 1--its specificity and antidote to the speaker's (I mean singer's) flight from a world that is "all emotions and abstractions." OK-- I'm going of to be now. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 2:56 PM > To: rflynn@frontiernet.net; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Hejira (long) > > > > (though in haste, and > > somewhat incompletely, I'm afraid). > > That was quite a nice piece, Richard - thanks for taking the > time to put it down. Incomplete? Of course, as I think one could > write volumes about the lyricism of this record. > > And the same technique that you credit to Amelia (the closure > referencing the beginning) can be given to Hejira as well, with > the lines > > I'm travelling in some vehicle, > I'm sitting in some cafe > A defector from the petty wars > That shellshock love away/Until love sucks me back that way > > Almost a resignation of her fate, like saying she's a prisoner > of the white lines of the free way...I've never heard of Hejira > referred to as an epic poem, but now I see that it is. > > Thanks again, > Bob > > NP: Lucinda, "Am I Too Blue" 11/19/99 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:16:17 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: Fender's Top 100 Guitarists list SJC Recently, there's been discussion here of Rolling Stone magazine's "Top 100 Guitarists of All Time" article in the current issue. Much was made of the fact that Joni Mitchell and Joan Jett are the only women represented thereon. Among those that other members have mentioned that belong there are Bonnie Raitt and Shawn Colvin (well, I'm not entirely sure that Shawn Colvin was mentioned here -- there was a similar discussion on the Message Board on Janis Ian's site). Fender Musical Instruments, or whatever the corporate name is these days, sends me a monthly e-mail which includes a link to a full-graphic newsletter, "60-Cycle Hum" -- the "Hum" itself doesn't come to my e-mail -- and the newest "Hum" includes THEIR version of a Top 100 Guitarists list. They compiled theirs by asking 25 key in-house people to each nominate 15 guitarists, and then, the idea was to combine them into a top 100. All those that got from 2 votes up summed to fewer than 100, but adding all those that were tied at 1 vote each sums to more than 100. They published the whole list. Bonnie Raitt and Shawn Colvin each drew 1 vote, and on a cursory look, were the only women mentioned. No Joni, no Joan (Jett). Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:35:39 -0500 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: Re: timeline and Let's Sing Out And then 10 years later Charlie Mingus came calling. Jeeeeez Louise how did she do that? peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:32:28 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: free man in paris njc Paris is THE most beautiful city. I was completely taken aback by it. I don't like cities as a rule. Of course, walking along the Champs Elysees(sp?) i had Joni singing at me! I spent ages in Sephora(a perfume/aftershave shop). That and having spent some time looking for yarn shops, and gawoing in clothes shops, made me say to John: 'i'm just a big poof, really.' Spent a long time on a boat on the Siene. Took loads of film. It was very hot day(most of our trip had temps in the early 100's) and this being our 12 th day in France, we were both knackered. We came across a cinema(Lido I think) and it was showing Bruce Almighty with French subs, so we went and saw it. The cinema was HUGE and well designed. Really smart. The air con was lovely, my legs appreciated the rest and we quite enjoyed the film. I don't normally care for Carey, i just want to slap him, but in this I found him good. He is a good looking man, sensitive looking, nice features etc Tho i find his smile odd. his top row of teeth look odd, they seem very flat, no rounding. Anyway, Paris is somewhere I'd love to return to(after I have recovered) and see more.. there is so much we did not see. We went by trian from our hotel in Orlean, as there was no way i was going to drive there. French trains are efficient and cheap. We went from Chambery to Lyon by train too. Of course my vertigo would not allow me to go up the Eiffel Tower. I have to say i thought this was most out of place and ugly, and you cannot miss it! - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #449 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)