From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #442 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, September 4 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 442 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: newbie ["Lori Fye" ] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) ["Lori Fye" ] depression njc [magsnbrei ] Re: Joni in Rolling Stone [Catherine McKay ] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: newbie [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Andrea (NJC) - stand up and be counted, depressive ones! [AzeemAK@aol] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: newbie [Michael Paz ] RE: Depression NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Yes in concert and old age! ["ash" ] Fw: Depression NJC [Emiliano ] Subject: Blue period [Seulbzzaj@aol.com] what works for depression NJC [Jane ] Re: Ash's comments on Andrea [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Johnny Cash copy [PassScribe@aol.com] Andrea, remembered [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Beth Patterson IN DC area! NJC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: newbie [Catherine McKay ] depression (njc) [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC - stand up and be counted, depressive ones! [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:19:14 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: newbie Hi Tim from southern NJ! (WHERE there? I used to live in Voorhees and work at the radar station in Gibbsboro.) Welcome to the JMDL! > I'm finally getting finished with my Joni collection, and I was > wondering if anyone had suggestions of albums that Joni helped on > (lyrically, and or vocal/guitar/piano), that are worthwhile? I can't add more to what Bob has kindly supplied (and thank you, simon, for compiling http://www.jonimitchell.com/Lists/Contributions/ContributionsYear.htm), although I will say that for a "period" album, Shadow Play by LA Express is very enjoyable, and I really like the cover art. > I have James Taylor's Mud Slide Slim, several Joni background vocals > on there. It's great to have you here -- please post more soon! Lori in MD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:25:40 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) Thanks Jim, for looking for a bit of silver lining in this cloud. Thanks also to everyone who has contributed their "remedies." As for me, beyond having a good psychiatrist and a good therapist (I currently have the former, but no latter), and beyond taking meds to manage, what works for me is: *singing, however out-of tune, usually completely spur-of-the-moment, made-up songs *bicycling over long distances *hammering away on my guitar (this is nothing anyone else should ever hear, as it is frightening!) *gathering with friends, either in person or online *counting my blessings whenever possible And you know ... (there may be more) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Andrea (NJC) - stand up and be counted, depressive ones! --- Lori Fye wrote: > > > You also mentioned that you know very well how > depression feels. > Anyone else here? Raise your hand! > Hand raised here. I come from a long line of depressoes. Fortunately we all have really twisted senses of humour to go along with it. So sometimes it's hard to tell whether you're depressed or not, and y'know, laughing and crying, it's the same release. I was taking Zoloft for a while, maybe two or three years. Back in the spring, I stopped for a number of reasons and here they are: - - I wanted to see if I could do it without the meds and to figure out how much of the depression was caused by my weird body chemistry and how much by my personal situation (I think I had switched part of myself off over a lot of my marriage and I wanted to see if that had changed, or would change, once he was out of my life.) - - sometimes the stuff was making me sick (I would either get bad heartburn or have to throw up within an hour or so of swallowing one). The shrink suggested it could be the stuff the capsules are made of, so, at her suggestion, I tried breaking them open and mixing it up with orange juice, which was bitter-tasting, but which alleviated some of the other problems - - I was running out of money to pay for them - I do have a drug plan but the thing is, you have to pay for the drugs first, then submit them for reimbursement (good ploy on part of the insurance companies, eh?) - - I had no sexual feelings whatsoever and I wanted to know if it was the drugs or just me (I think it *was* the drugs, but what's the point of sexual feelings if... well, you know.) - - when the SARS thing happened in Toronto, I couldn't see my shrink because her office was in one of the affected hospitals and they weren't letting anyone in; plus, because I work for the ministry of health and everything was SARS, SARS, SARS, for months on end, there really wasn't time to see her anyway. So now I've decided that I'm damn well going to take my lunch hours, because I've been deemed non-essential and that's just the permission I need, and I'm damn well going to be kinder to myself, so I'm off to the Y at lunch and I'm doing the stationary bike and lifting weights and I've lost some weight as well, am eating better and feeling better. Sometimes. On the other hand, I'm getting mood fluctuations (don't want to say swings necessarily because they're probably within the realm of "normal") and I'm not sure if it's depression once again rearing its ugly head and leading me to that black hole again, or if it's just menopause. What a cheery thought that is! I'm a fun person to be around - really! I'm not psycho enough to be worried, just mental enough to want to keep an eye on this (that's the detached Catherine that can pay attention to what the psycho one is doing and offer advice or condemnation as the case may be - split personality anyone?) If it gets worse, or it doesn't get better, than I'm headed to the shrink to play Bingo again! I'd rather do without the meds where at all possible but am not necessarily against the idea either. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:33:46 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) >* a diet of healthy foods (reducing sugars and watching carb >intake and overly-processed food "junk calorie" intake, >especially) I've never had what you would call severe depression. I''ve been depressed over situations...deaths...break-ups (sometimes I don't even know why I have the blues) and am always able to pull myself out of it. BUT I would not hesitate for a minute to ask for the aid of medication if needed. Yes.. what Cindy has written above is so important. IF i consume too many carbs..i get the blues..sometimes the deep blues. "Sugar Blues" THe more protein in my diet...excercise....i feel like a million...physically as well as mentally. Bree >* a willingness to call in professional help if things start >feeling truly hopeless > > >thank you, jim, for creating something positive from our loss. > >cindy > > > >|--------+-----------------------> >| | "Lama, Jim | >| | L'Hommedieu" | >| | | | e.net> | >| | Sent by: | >| | owner-joni@jm| >| | dl.com | >| | | >| | | >| | 09/04/2003 | >| | 11:57 AM | >| | Please | >| | respond to | >| | "Lama, Jim | >| | L'Hommedieu" | >| | | >|--------+-----------------------> > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > | > | > | To: "_JMDL" > | > | cc: > | > | Subject: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) > | > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > > > >Today I'm thinking that Joni's songs are sometimes cathartic for >depression >but even when they're not, they are descriptive of depression. > >Many people have noted in the past that her songs are often about >disappointment for example. > >Because of Joni's stories, I suspect that there is a *LOT* of >collected >wisdom on this list about depression. I'm going to compile a >list of "What >Works" from JMDLers. If you want to participate, you can reply >to this post >or send something privately to jlamadoo@fuse.net. > >Maybe Andrea's death can focus us on making a big list of coping >skills that >have worked to some degree or another for various JMDLers. > >For example, I have tried and rejected: >* Talking to a therapist > >For now, these are working as long as I keep doing them all: >* Keeping a journal >* Keep growing as a professional >* Anti-depressant drug(s) >* Walking every day >* Keep the hobbies going > > >A year before the terrorists brought down the World Trade Center >towers, >Marcel said some of his keys to happiness (which you must admit >is related >to lack of depression!) are: > >* Be a realist >* Don't sweat the small stuff >* Keep growing. Never "retire" >* Trust some sort of spiritual being. > >In response, on September 11, 2000, MG said he left out: > >* Love (as a verb). "For your children, it can be as >simple as bedtime >kisses and "I love you's." For co-workers, it can be as simple >as mirroring >back their bad day with your own serenity. For strangers, it can >be as >simple as letting the person in the market cut ahead of you at >the check out >line with a smile. For your friends and lovers, the >possibilities are >boundless." > >On the same day, Bruce Merril responded to Marcel with, >"Happiness involves >this combination of > >* being read to find happiness in what you have > (instead of pining for what you don't) but also >* not resolving to complacency. So you're both > finding happiness and actively looking & > struggling towards it. There's a paradox in > there, that makes it difficult, I suspect. > >It seems like one JMDLer found happiness when he >* left the dangers in London and moved to the > county. (I won't speak for you but you > know who you are!) > > >What works for you? > >Lama _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:47:33 +0200 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Joni in Rolling Stone Fave guitar work: a toss up between * Black Crow: not that hard to play once you know the tuning. But for years I tried (unsuccessfully) figuring out how to play it in standard tuning, that was before JMDL existed and before I knew about Joni's special tunings. * You Dream Flat Tires: that bass riff always floored me. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: depression njc I've heard that depression is anger turned inside out. Thoughts? depression is something that, when you are in the thick of it, you can't even remember the simple things like "exercise" go to the doctor, etc. give me strength. Mags You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:55:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni in Rolling Stone --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > My fave Joni guitar playing would be... > "The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey" - I'm just a sucker > for those > chimes. > Harmonics - I love those! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:01:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: I can't > remember ever > being really depressed after sex, unfortunately I > can't remember > the last time I had great sex which in itself is a > little > depressing! ... then you need to have GREAT SEX, Bob! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:04:06 -0700 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) Hi Jim - Thank you for this post. I raise my hand and admit terrible depression. Some of which I've brought on myself and some for good reason. I know music works for me - always has. The one thing I can rely on to help me. I received a copy of the "Let's Sing Out" CD today, and I've been playing "Just Like Me" over and over. Joni is talking "to/about" me. Just like we've all felt at one time or another right? I receive that little charge of "instant bliss": being able to hear one of her rare songs that I love so much. Regardless of her words - which mean very much to me - another level, which is "hearing" that beautiful melody and beautiful young voice just saves me - and gives me so much happiness. Thanks again to the sender of this disc. I need music in my life to survive. Best regards, Gary P.S. Thank you too Cindy for your great post - and to all who have stepped forward. Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Today I'm thinking that Joni's songs are sometimes cathartic for depression >but even when they're not, they are descriptive of depression. > >Many people have noted in the past that her songs are often about >disappointment for example. > >Because of Joni's stories, I suspect that there is a *LOT* of collected >wisdom on this list about depression. I'm going to compile a list of "What >Works" from JMDLers. If you want to participate, you can reply to this post >or send something privately to jlamadoo@fuse.net. > >Maybe Andrea's death can focus us on making a big list of coping skills that >have worked to some degree or another for various JMDLers. > >For example, I have tried and rejected: >* Talking to a therapist > >For now, these are working as long as I keep doing them all: >* Keeping a journal >* Keep growing as a professional >* Anti-depressant drug(s) >* Walking every day >* Keep the hobbies going > > >A year before the terrorists brought down the World Trade Center towers, >Marcel said some of his keys to happiness (which you must admit is related >to lack of depression!) are: > >* Be a realist >* Don't sweat the small stuff >* Keep growing. Never "retire" >* Trust some sort of spiritual being. > >In response, on September 11, 2000, MG said he left out: > >* Love (as a verb). "For your children, it can be as simple as bedtime >kisses and "I love you's." For co-workers, it can be as simple as mirroring >back their bad day with your own serenity. For strangers, it can be as >simple as letting the person in the market cut ahead of you at the check out >line with a smile. For your friends and lovers, the possibilities are >boundless." > >On the same day, Bruce Merril responded to Marcel with, "Happiness involves >this combination of > >* being read to find happiness in what you have > (instead of pining for what you don't) but also >* not resolving to complacency. So you're both > finding happiness and actively looking & > struggling towards it. There's a paradox in > there, that makes it difficult, I suspect. > >It seems like one JMDLer found happiness when he >* left the dangers in London and moved to the > county. (I won't speak for you but you > know who you are!) > > >What works for you? > >Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni in Rolling Stone --- StephenToogood wrote: > > 'Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire' > > This is one I whistle all day at work (I don't just > do the happy tunes) and > it gets on everyone's nerves so much because they > don't know what it is. > That can be fun. But I guess you know that. ;) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:07:59 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: newbie Hi Tim, Welcome from another Joniphile from the great state of NJ. I think that Bob answered most of your questions. Leave it to the covers king. Oh and did I mention I'm a huge Springsteen fan too? ;~) rosie in nj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:12:02 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Andrea (NJC) - stand up and be counted, depressive ones! In a message dated 04/09/2003 23:33:27 GMT Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << I'm not psycho enough to be worried, just mental enough to want to keep an eye on this (that's the detached Catherine that can pay attention to what the psycho one is doing and offer advice or condemnation as the case may be - split personality anyone?) >> Well, another (maybe more positive) way of putting that is it's about "sub-personalities", the parts of us that go to make up our whole personality, and each of which has its own voice. That's the psychosynthesis (the branch of psychology I did my counselling training in) view, and I find it quite comforting! << If it gets worse, or it doesn't get better, than I'm headed to the shrink to play Bingo again! I'd rather do without the meds where at all possible but am not necessarily against the idea either. >> One of my clients has found St John's Wort helpful in alleviating her depression - is that available on the other side of the water? I have known psychiatrists to recommend it in other cases too. Might be a viable alternative to psychotropics, at least for some people. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:12:38 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) In a message dated 9/4/03 7:02:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: > then you need to have GREAT SEX, Bob! > I need to have sex period!!!! LMAO rosie sexless in nj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:25:15 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) In a message dated 04/09/2003 19:38:16 GMT Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << When all else fails, it's hard to top some wild crazy sex with someone you love to chase depression away. I can't remember ever being really depressed after sex, unfortunately I can't remember the last time I had great sex which in itself is a little depressing! >> Well, if all else fails, there is always what Woody Allen once described as sex with someone you love... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:04:18 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: newbie Hi Tim Welcome to the list. It is always a happy thing for me to se a young person discovering Joni. I am a guitar player (as well as other instruments) and I have a couple of VG-8's (more info her http://vg-8.com/ ) that I store all my Joni patches in. While many on the list will tell you the VG-8 doesn't sound as good as real acoustic guitars it beats the hell out of re tuning the guitar for every song. Let me know if I can be of any help to you figuring something out on the tabs and such. Have a great stay here and hope to hear more from you and see you at an upcoming JoniFest or Minifest gathering. Best Michael Paz in New Orleans > Hi everyone, this is Tim (23 yrs old) from southern New Jersey. This is my > first post. I'm finally getting finished with my Joni collection, and I was > wondering if anyone had suggestions of albums that Joni helped on (lyrically, > and or vocal/guitar/piano), that are worthwhile? I have James Taylor's Mud > Slide Slim, several Joni background vocals on there. > On another note (Just to let everyone know me a little better), I think Clouds > is a highly underrated album, as well as STAS. IMO they have some of the best > lyrics and guitar work, of all her repertoire. BTW, my fav albums also include > Blue and Hejira. My top ten song list (in no particular order) would probably > be River, I Had a King, Circle Game, Chelsea Morning, Michael from Mountains, > My Secret Place, Real Good For Free, Amelia, The Sire of Sorrow, and A Case of > You. > Also thankyou to the creators and volunteers for this site. Now I finally have > all the lyrics in one word document! I started typing them in from my CD > jackets, but now I just cut and paste from the site. Also the guitar section > is great. I'm just learning how to play, and I love tab! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:28:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Depression NJC i never fight depression. depression is a symptom and as such it is a red light. it is just like fever: it is there to let you know that something deeper, more structural is not all right. if you suppress depression, you might miss the signal. if you're lucky, very lucky, you can improve what's radically wrong with you and your life. another reason why trying to fight depression is futile is that... well, you just CAN'T fight depression. when you're depressed your ability to put any kind of fight is gone. you can't even find a good reason to get out of bed, let alone to exercise or do anything physical. oh you can go through the motions, go to work, go to the gym, go to church, go to a party, but you are still depressed. no one knows or notices, but you are depressed. you may be enchanting everyone with your charming conversation and your incredible wit, but you may still be considering ways to put an end to your life and to your misery. you may stimulate your endorphins for a while, but depression will stay with you, maybe dormant, maybe as an aftertaste, on the lurk. i am very pleased to have found a way that i deal with to put an end to my life when the moment comes for that decision. i've been thinking about it for many years and the right way suddenly came to me in a movie, a very bad movie at that. i have told a friend and my sister what they have to do with my stuff and how to deal with the legal aspects if and when i kill myself. one thing's sure though and that is i won't be depressed the day i kill myself. depression robs you of all your energy and you need all your strength to kill yourself. suicide has to do with melancholy rather than with depression. you want out. you want out of history. you have come to the realization that you are part of a plan and a state of affairs (personal, political, public, whatever) where your opinion doesn't count anymore, where your only and last choice is to turn your life off. and you want to be able to protect and make that choice before it too is taken away from you. when you are blue or down, you run, you take a pill, you help your neighbor paint his kitchen. when you are depressed, the way some of us are and have been since childhood, you plan your suicide and wait. wally ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:35:50 +1000 From: "ash" Subject: Re: Yes in concert and old age! More News on Yes in the UK from a mate.......(sorry no mention of Joni) .... Hi Ash Yup...Judi took me to see Yes at the Hammersmith Apollo for my 46th birthday...argh!!. It was fantastic, an amazing nostalgia trip and god have I been on some of those lately!! It was almost the original line up and certainly the most well known by Yes fans...Jon Anderson, Steve Howe, Chris Squire, Andy White and Rick Wakeman! Didn't really miss Bill Bruford or Tony Kaye. I couldn't believe that it was 28 years since Id last seen them at Bingley Hall! They were better than ever and Jon Anderson's voice seemed to had mellowed....certainly didn't sound like he had his balls in a vice as usual. They all looked a little chunky ( but then don't we all these days) although Steve Hove looked like he'd been on traffic warden duty all day and Rick was still doing his Clairol Hair Bleaching Kit Advert. Andy White was as tight on the drums as ever and Chris Squire was just awesome when he walked on stage to perform The Ladder with a four necked bass!! Actually he looked more like Arnie in Terminator! Anyway, it was bloody fantastic and a night I shall never forget. Most of the bands you mention I've seen and I always enjoyed Supertramp despite the backing track stuff. I think the best gigs ever for me though were Queen at Wembley in 86, Genesis at Knebworth in 88 (i think), and Dire Straits at Woburn Abbey in 1990. PS: I've got loads of those black plastic 12 inch thingies too but I'll never bung 'em. The sleeves are so much better than those bloody eyetests they put in with the silver frisbees! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:02:25 +0200 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Depression NJC - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Wally Kairuz" Para: "Joni List" Enviado: viernes, 05 de septiembre de 2003 2:28 Asunto: RE: Depression NJC > i never fight depression. depression is a symptom and as such it is a red > light. it is just like fever: it is there to let you know that something > deeper, more structural is not all right. if you suppress depression, you > might miss the signal. if you're lucky, very lucky, you can improve what's > radically wrong with you and your life. > another reason why trying to fight depression is futile is that... well, you > just CAN'T fight depression. when you're depressed your ability to put any > kind of fight is gone. you can't even find a good reason to get out of bed, > let alone to exercise or do anything physical. oh you can go through the > motions, go to work, go to the gym, go to church, go to a party, but you are > still depressed. no one knows or notices, but you are depressed. you may be > enchanting everyone with your charming conversation and your incredible wit, > but you may still be considering ways to put an end to your life and to your > misery. you may stimulate your endorphins for a while, but depression will > stay with you, maybe dormant, maybe as an aftertaste, on the lurk. > i am very pleased to have found a way that i deal with to put an end to my > life when the moment comes for that decision. i've been thinking about it > for many years and the right way suddenly came to me in a movie, a very bad > movie at that. i have told a friend and my sister what they have to do with > my stuff and how to deal with the legal aspects if and when i kill myself. > one thing's sure though and that is i won't be depressed the day i kill > myself. depression robs you of all your energy and you need all your > strength to kill yourself. > suicide has to do with melancholy rather than with depression. you want out. > you want out of history. you have come to the realization that you are part > of a plan and a state of affairs (personal, political, public, whatever) > where your opinion doesn't count anymore, where your only and last choice is > to turn your life off. and you want to be able to protect and make that > choice before it too is taken away from you. > when you are blue or down, you run, you take a pill, you help your neighbor > paint his kitchen. when you are depressed, the way some of us are and have > been since childhood, you plan your suicide and wait. > wally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:07:55 -0400 From: Seulbzzaj@aol.com Subject: Subject: Blue period In a message dated 9/4/2003 3:00:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Zzutak@aol.com writes: << It's only saddening when you listen to the earlier stuff, which is chillingly expansive and expressive. >> All I can say to that is baloney! Joni is a much more expressive singer now than she was in the '60's and '70's. I don't find anything sad about her abilities as an artist today. I believe she is a greater musician now than she was in her youth. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jane Subject: what works for depression NJC I'm always running behind the times it seems, but I'll second a few others' comments... - -Exercise! and don't hesitate to try something new. for years I have walked walked walked in my very hilly neighborhood which is decent exercise but got dull. recalling how I spent most of my childhood riding my bike inspired me to purchase one at age 44. it's great fun. makes me feel like a kid again. and yoga. it's good for mind and body. - -Music! some people have told me that they cannot listen to music when they are depressed, but for me it's essential. though occasionally I have to be selective about material. - -Sex! must be something about the humidity down here in the south as my fellow southerner Bob mentioned it too. have some mind-blowing, body-bending sex (or some body-blowing, mind-bending sex haha) with someone you love. speaking from personal experience, it keeps me young and certainly makes me feel ALIVE. and unlike Bob, I remember the last time ;) - -Volunteer! give something of yourself to the world and you will end up enriching your own life. puts your own problems in perspective too. - -Meds! I've been seriously depressed (though never suicidal) only once in my life and Prozac was a miracle drug for me at that time. Lifted the beast off my shoulders and allowed me to come out of my shell of sadness. I no longer take anything, but had great success w/ Wellbutrin as well. just fyi. don't be afraid. sometimes it is just what you need! I like my fellow alabamian Cindy's suggestion of keeping a gratitude list and a journal. and Lama mentioned a journal too. Like him, I found therapy of only limited help. but some may find it is what opens the door to understanding. Take care all. Jane __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:42:03 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Ash's comments on Andrea Ash, your thoughts and comments on the loss of Sue and Andrea were beautifully expressed. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:42:04 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Johnny Cash copy In a message dated 9/4/03 3:01:06 AM, Emiliano writes: << And what about doing a copy on .mpg format that you could burn on a CD-R? >> Emiliano, I wouldn't know where to begin; besides, my CD burner is not a part of my computer. Let's be happy with VHS tapes a little while longer ;-) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:42:00 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Andrea, remembered Lori, I don't have too much saved to pass along in the way of e-mail material received from Andrea but she DID surprise me with one short message, after we had exchanged the first couple of posts. She asked me how old I was. I replied (just turned 60) and she responded: "Kenny, I am shocked. I presumed you were a very young person, like in your 20s, by your correspondence. All's forgiven, by the way. Best, Andrea" Boy, talk about an unusual compliment. Now, if I only FELT like I was 20 again... Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:46:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) <... then you need to have GREAT SEX, Bob! Oh, I do...it would just be nice if another person was involved every once in a while! :~) Bob NP: Sparks/Jane Wiedlin, "Cool Places" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:49:00 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Beth Patterson IN DC area! NJC If I was closer, I'd be there. It's up to you guys, now. Get the new disc to study-up: "TAKE SOME FIRE" > Friday, October 17, 2003 The Starland Cafe, Washington, DC > Sunday, October 19, 2003 Pat Troy's, Alexandria, VA http://www.littlebluemen.com/b_dates.asp Lama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:07:19 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: what works for depression NJC >must be something about the humidity down >here in the south as my fellow southerner Bob >mentioned it too. Well hell yeah, if you're gonna be all sweaty anyway you might as well have a little fun! ;~) New John Mayer out this month - YAY!! I love the new track I've heard so far. Bob NP: Sheila Chandra, "Song To The Siren" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:09:20 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) I've suffered from severe, debilitating anxiety and low (zero) self-esteem. They called it depression, but I'm not sure. It certainly wasn't that kind of black, deep depression that can't find hope or happiness in anything. I thought I sucked, but I didn't think the world sucked. Is that depression? Tried antidepressants a couple of times, but they didn't help, except one particular drug increased my metabolism so much that I could eat an entire toll house pie and lose weight. Pretty cool! Therapy didn't help. I tried thirteen therapists, so I think I gave it a fair shake. I think therapy actually hurt, by keeping me in bondage to this idea of illness. What helps? The company of my cats. The company of my husband. Music. Like others have said, volunteering - getting outside myself. Or the opposite, complete self-indulgence - a bottle of wine and a bunch of old movies. And my real, everlasting saving grace - laughter. At 07:01 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:09:28 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: depression, among other things (NJC) > You also mentioned that you know very well how depression feels. > Anyone else here? Raise your hand! > > Lori, I've been on somewhat of a personal quest to find out why I hit periods or low energy and lack of mental acuity. I thought for a time that it might be depression. However, initially I thought it was sinus related and had surgery to open up the passages from my nostrils to my sinuses. That helped a little for awhile but the periods of fog didn't go completely away. So I tried the anti-depressant route. Celexa made me sick. Wellbutrin kept me awake at night. Effexor had some benefit but at times I felt like I was right back where I started, sitting at my desk at work, feeling like my brain was slogging through waist deep mud just to get the simplest task accomplished. All of these drugs put me through some serious changes when I first started taking them and the side effects never completely went away. (I took Effexor the longest and at one point tried to augment that with Wellbutrin. I could never get beyond very low doses because I would start to feel like I was coming on to an acid trip when I did. Fun when I was a 20 year old college student. Not so fun now that I'm a 49 year schlmeil trying to do a desk job.) The next thing was a sleep study and it was determined that I have sleep apnea. So I now sleep with a CPAP machine (continuous positive air pressure) that blows air up my nose all night to keep my uvula from blocking my esophagus (Babs, my uvula's been on the fritz.) Again, there has been some benefit from that, but I still have mid-morning slumps. Recently I had my yearly physical and prior to that had a fasting blood draw done. It showed an elevated blood sugar level. So they drew more blood, did another test and it seems I am mildly diabetic. My doctor says it should be controllable through diet and exercise. Next week I see a nurse practitioner and a dietician at a diabetes clinic. I get a free stick-your-finger thingy for monitoring blood sugar at that time. Oh joy. I hope the day is coming soon when I can feel good on a consistent basis ALL DAY LONG. At least every now and then. But I still have my doubts. And in case you may be wondering, for the past 2 or 3 months I have been going to my office's fitness center 5 days a week, doing some mild ab work (have to be careful with my very bad back), 20 minutes on the Stairmaster and another 40-50 minutes working out with weights. I know, I know I need to do more aerobic stuff. Mark E. in Seatte ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: death (njc) There's just way, WAY too much death around these days. I can feel it just as surely as I can see the fog outside my window. Andrea and Mag's Dave are the two examples so close to this list, and there are others too... I'm so sorry for your losses, Bruce and Mags. You ache while your loved ones discover new truths and horizons we can't even imagine. One thing I can assure everyone here. The departed do not want you to follow them into the darkness. They want you to continue living every day. Like Lori, they want you to shout at how good it feels to ride a bicycle in the rain. How do I know? When I was dying, I didn't want anyone to follow me. I didn't want them to lie in the bed next to me, with all the tubes and needles attached to them, with all the pain and fear. All I ever wanted was for someone to remember me. That's all. So tonight, I remember Andrea and Dave and wish them peace where they are now. It's a f*cking miracle that I'm here to write this. Like someone once said, "You don't know what you've got til it's gone." or almost gone, I guess... lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:22:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: mama cass television program SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >> the best part is when all 3 do a nice version >> of "i shall be released." >> joni takes the third verse-- >> (now yonder stands a man in this lonely crowd...) >> does this count as a new joni cover? > > No, because she also did it with Van & Bob on her '98 tour. I think it was a surprise to Bobby when she & Van came out on stage. Joni muffed the lyrics and giggled at herself. It was highly amusing. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: newbie --- Timothy Foldoe wrote: > Hi everyone, this is Tim (23 yrs old) from southern > New Jersey. This is my > first post. Welcome, Tim. Stick around awhile and keep on posting! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:26:07 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: depression (njc) Lama, thanks for starting the thread about depression. It's so damn hard to crawl out of that hole sometimes. I don't have any magic, just everything that's already been mentioned. Oh, and I'll add "cats." My two felines are constant reminders of unconditional love. My Tuckerman, in particular, reminds me that miracles are indeed possible. Being able to say "help" is a sign of strength, not weakness. Even though "there's comfort in melancholy when there's no need to explain," you don't have to live there. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:30:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) --- Chris Marshall wrote: >I sure I get selfish when down or > depressed, and forget what I should be giving > back out to the people around me. That is very true of what happens when people get depressed, whether they realize or not. They withdraw into themselves, some because they don't want to "impose" on others, or be a burden; others because they think they're the only person in the world who has ever felt that way & they either feel guilty about it, or they feel like some kind of freak, or whatever. The good news is - there's a lot of freaks on this list, so there's tons of folks that *get* this stuff. (I feel better talking to people on this list than I do talking to family members which is actually kind of sad in a way - on the other hand, I'm glad you-all are here). > Final caveat: I have no idea whether what I've > felt at these times is true depression or not. > I still function, albeit in an out-of-focus, > would-rather-be-in-bed, not-quite-concentrating- > on-the-road sort of way. That's pretty much the way it is with me. I'm not standing on a bridge thinking about jumping off and I function more-or-less as a human being, so most people wouldn't have a clue there was anything wrong; but I can always tell and I just don't like that feeling of a black hole ahead of me, or a sandpit I have to climb out of. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:38:41 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: ALIEN IN SLAMMER -- NJC I was at the local drugstore tonight when I saw this headline on one of the tabloids, "News of the World," I think: ALIEN IN SLAMMER AFTER FIST FIGHT WITH BILL . . . *OVER HILLARY* There was a big photo of Hillary Clinton with her mouth wide open all the way to her back molars, as if she was shocked -- SHOCKED! -- at the very idea of two adult, well, *beings* fighting over her. Two smaller photos featured a Washington, DC police mug shot of the pointy-headed, big-eyed alien and a picture of a very depressed and dejected looking Bill Clinton with a big black shiner. Next to that rag was the Boston Globe with a story that featured a photograph of Sen. Kerry "crying" while listening to the money woes of a single mother. Anyway, I was thinking . . . is the "news" getting weirder, or is it just me? And either way, should I be using drugs to cope? --Puzzled in Massachusetts ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:42:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: depression njc --- magsnbrei wrote: > I've heard that depression is anger turned inside > out. Thoughts? > > depression is something that, when you are in the > thick of it, you can't even remember the simple > things like "exercise" go to the doctor, etc. > > give me strength. > > Mags > That makes a lot of sense to me, and well said in so few words. Most of us are taught that anger is a bad thing and yet it's a normal human emotion. So we turn it off and turn it in - and it becomes depression? In my family, we were basically taught that expressing emotion wasn't a particularly good thing, especially negative emotion. I was a little kid that used to jump up and down when I got really happy or excited over anything and somehow I managed to get that embarassed out of me. (I guess it would look kind of nuts at my age, but hey, why not?) Anger was a no-no. Sadness was weakness of character, although it was fine to cry at funerals. Being too happy wasn't good either, because you'd pay for it in the end. I became good at repressing. Crap on that - not good, I tells ya! You've got to shake your fists at lightning, now! You've got to roar like forest fire! You've got to spread your light like blazes All across the sky! Mags, I wish you strength and courage and lots of it. Your brother sounds like a fine man and I feel your loss, obviously not nearly as much as you do. You're not going to get over this in a hurry. Sometimes it's not even a matter of living day to day, but minute to minute. The sadness will go away but you have to give it time. You know that. You have to be good to yourself and don't be afraid to let it all out - the tears, the rage, the good memories. Sending you hugs and love across the miles. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:44:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC - stand up and be counted, depressive ones! --- AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > One of my clients has found St John's Wort helpful > in alleviating her > depression - is that available on the other side of > the water? I have known > psychiatrists to recommend it in other cases too. > Might be a viable alternative to > psychotropics, at least for some people. Yup. You can buy that stuff here too. You shouldn't take it, so I've heard, if you're on other anti-depressants but it's worth a shot - not covered by the drug plan though :( ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:53:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > <... then you need to have GREAT SEX, Bob! > > Oh, I do...it would just be nice if another person > was involved every once in > a while! :~) > ROTFLMAO! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:53:35 -0400 From: "David Rahall" Subject: Re: What works for Depression? Was Re: Andrea (NJC) That's how I feel. We're intelligent human beings. (right?) And we're happy some of the time, goddammit. I try to be happy as often as I can sincerely be happy! David listening to the Beach Boys "Friends" > That's pretty much the way it is with me. I'm not > standing on a bridge thinking about jumping off and I > function more-or-less as a human being, so most people > wouldn't have a clue there was anything wrong; but I > can always tell and I just don't like that feeling of > a black hole ahead of me, or a sandpit I have to climb > out of. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:56:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: newbie --- Michael Paz wrote: While many on the list will tell > you the VG-8 doesn't > sound as good as real acoustic guitars it beats the > hell out of re tuning > the guitar for every song. I've been breaking a lot of guitar strings lately because of retuning (damn that Joni!) so I went in to buy guitar strings today and mentioned using alt tunings. The wiseguy that sold me my last guitar told me I really need another guitar - one tuned to standard and another to alt tunings. I mentioned that there were a whole bunch of different tunings i'd been using, but that, if I were to win the lottery, I might take his suggestion and maybe buy a dozen guitars or so. It was at that point that it occurred to me that the demon VG-8 might not be so terrible after all. (But it don't gots that acoustic vibe that I love so much!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #442 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)