From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #427 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 27 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 427 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Guitarists ["StephenToogood" ] Re: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC [] Re: Joni on Last Waltz + question ["StephenToogood" ] RE: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE South African Music Sampler ["ron" ] A Case of Carolina (SJC) [] Re: Bad news for the Cover guy or a Les goof? njc [Les Irvin ] Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc ["Lavieri, Vince [185776]" ] Re: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) ["Scott and Jody" ] Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc ["ron" ] Re: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) ["kerry" ] Re: New Joni DVD [Jupydoo@aol.com] Re: "It's the Mormons!" njc [Jupydoo@aol.com] RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) ["Maggie McNally" ] RE: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) ["Maggie McNally" ] RE: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: question [Emi ] Re: staring a hole [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] NJC Re: A Case of Carolina (SJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] mystical happenings ["anon anon" ] Re: Warren Zevon on VH1 (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: New Joni DVD [Deb Messling ] Re: my take on nuns (njc) [Michael Paz ] Re: Magdalene Laundries/religion - njc [Michael Paz ] Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Sports & yankees suc--- oops, I mean, play poorly njc [vince ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:43:02 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc In a message dated 8/27/2003 2:11:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: > That - and did Alabama really need (yet) another black > eye?" Hey, better Alabama than SC...we got no eyes left, plus we've shot off both feet! :~) Seriously, thanks for sharing that piece, neighbor. I thought he pretty much hit it right on the head. Bob, who is pretty much ten-for-ten on broken commandments... NP: Tom Waits, "Fumblin' With The Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:08:50 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC i look forward to getting this cd...there was one song in particular that really moved me (kinda gospel/folky but i can't remember words or anything more)...i'm not familiar enough with his bio to recognize errors...what did they get wrong? i wonder if they rushed this video out for the cd release & also his health but it is too bad there are errors because if any broadcast ought to be factual its this one... mary: >Yes: I stayed up late and spent the first hour of my birthday seeing that show. There were some inaccuracies in WZ's biography at the beginning, but the show itself was. . .well, worth staying up for.< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:19:06 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Guitarists That's sooo good because I feel that Joni's guitar talents get ignored a lot because of the whole tunings thing which is a shame. Different tunings however have always appealed to me. I'm no expert but do any of you guys think that Janis Ian should have made that list? I always though Joan Jett only sang. She done anything good? Steve NP: Otis & Marlena (TLOG) - Joni - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D." To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: Re: Guitarists > Sister Rosetta Tharpe. > > ---------------------- > > Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:23:17 -0400 > From: Deb Messling > Subject: Joni on Rolling Stone's poll of top > guitarists > > Reuters reports that Joni Mitchell came in at #72 on > Rolling Stone's > list > of the 100 top guitarists of all time. Jimi Hendrix > is number 1. The > only other woman to make the list is Joan Jett, at > #87. Not sure from > the > Reuters article if this is a reader's poll or a > creation of the > Rollling > Stone editors. I can think of a couple of other women > who might > deserve to > make such a list. Didn't someone on the list recently > mention Ellen > McIlwaine? What about Rory Block? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:35:13 -0500 From: Subject: Re: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC Billy Bob Thornton narrated the bio part, and the writers screwed up a few things in their brief chronology of Zevon's life. They said he quit drinking in 1980: I understand that it was more like 1985. They then attributed changes in the subject matter of his songs to his newfound sobriety, but not only was an erroneous date used to start with, but songs from the 70's were used to illustrate the point! They'll be no argument from anyone that he was living a wild life of rock-and-roll excess back then. As a larger point, I'm not sure there IS such a glib cause-and-effect relationship between drinking and/or drugs and WZ's creative process. He's always had such a strong sense for both the darkness inherent in human experience, and also, the possibilities for redemption. He had both sensibilities while drunk, and he's got them both while sober. I'm sure they timed the VH1 show to coincide with the release of the CD, and it's possible that the record company didn't want to move back the date of the latter due to the precarity of Zevon's health. But most of what I write on this is "guesses at most"! Mary. P.S. I really have no idea how Zevon was able to sing this well on the CD, especially given how frail he looked on the video. But Jordan Zevon said that recording the CD may have kept his father alive months after the doctors' prognostications for his death. One last guess: there may well be something in that. 2d P.S. (of marginal interest to our recent thread on religion.) Someone asked Warren Zevon in the past year if his illness and imminent death have caused him to reevaluate his spirituality. He answered simply, "No: I've always been a Christian. Some people may find that strange, but I've always been a Graham Greene guy, you know?" Makes perfect sense to me. And, if I'm a Catholic, that's precisely the sense in which I am one. > > From: "Kate Bennett" > Date: 2003/08/27 Wed PM 02:08:50 CDT > To: , > Subject: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC > > i look forward to getting this cd...there was one song in particular that > really moved me (kinda gospel/folky but i can't remember words or anything > more)...i'm not familiar enough with his bio to recognize errors...what did > they get wrong? i wonder if they rushed this video out for the cd release & > also his health but it is too bad there are errors because if any broadcast > ought to be factual its this one... > > mary: > >Yes: I stayed up late and spent the first hour of my birthday seeing that > show. There were some inaccuracies in WZ's biography at the beginning, but > the show itself was. . .well, worth staying up for.< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:43:28 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Joni on Last Waltz + question Hi Bruce welcome to the list! I'm sure you'll fit right in. Yeah I was blown away with Joni's performance of Coyote on the Last Waltz. I remember being quite captivated watching it. I didn't even really like the song much before that! Talkin' of seeing things in a new light - if been rediscovering Jon's early 90's stuff and I can't get enough! 'Passion Play', 'The Sire Of Sorrow', 'Two Grey Rooms' and 'The Windfall' now seem especially clear to me. Does anyone have much of an insight to what 'Passion Play' may be about? There seems to be a slavery theme and a few religious lines plus something about renewal in men but I'm a bit stuck on this one. I'm so in love with it right now. I even appreciate the synth touches which bothered me before. There really is a lot more instrumentation detail in that song than I once thought. Steve NP: Woodstock (TLOG) - Joni - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Aronow" To: Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Joni on Last Waltz > Hi there jmdlers > I just joined the list after getting the Last Waltz DVD. I am sure all of > you appreciate why, but being a complete neonate, I still feel moved to > explain just a little of my feelings and why I would be drawn to an > opportunity to talk and listen to you on JM. As soon as I heard Joni's > first sweet background vocals on Neil Young's Helpless from backstage it > just gave me goosebumps chills warmth you name it. And then when she gave > Robbie that beautiful kiss, strummed those first chords of Coyote and sang > so clear strong sweet with the understanding and humanity of the ages.. Oh > ode to joy. It is still what the world needs now. Not by the spoonful. By > the oceanful. > With best regards, > Bruce Aronow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:49:42 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: Joni's Autobiography No, but I'll be there to buy the first copy! I remember reading that angry interview a few months a go and her saying something along the lines of "I'd love to spill the beans'. Interesting! Maybe Joni wants to spill the beans once she's released another album! Steve NP: The Sire Of Sorrow (TLOG) - Joni - ----- Original Message ----- From: "anon anon" To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:32 PM Subject: Joni's Autobiography > Does anyone know if Joni has written her autobiography yet?and,when it > will be published?I know she has talked about it for a long time. > > thanks, > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:56:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC if memory serves me i think he went into rehab (here in sb) around 79/80 but he may have not quit for certain until years later as often happens... mary> They said he quit drinking in 1980: I understand that it was more like 1985.< >I really have no idea how Zevon was able to sing this well on the CD, especially given how frail he looked on the video. But Jordan Zevon said that recording the CD may have kept his father alive months after the doctors' prognostications for his death. One last guess: there may well be something in that.< yes, i was amazed how his voice in the studio sounded so much stronger than i expected after his letterman appearance (which he explained on the vh1 bio as taking so much out of him)...this made me wonder why on earth letterman did not come to him but it seems to me that warren probably wanted to go to nyc one more time (not knowing how hard it would be on him)... i also agree that his project & perhaps his daughters pregnancy kept him going far beyond what the drs predicted for him... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:53:45 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: RE South African Music Sampler hi >>>>>bob wrote > NP: Landscape Prayers, "Topper Seven" (Hey Ron, this SA sampler is a rockin' good time!! Thanks so much for the effort.) i was planning to bring a whole bunch but ran out of time on the copying. if anyone out there is curious & would like a copy - just email me your address & ill drop a set in the post ....... ron np - jerry douglas, russ barenburg & edgar meyer - the travels of mr hulot - hey - these guys are nearly good enough for a slot in the poolroom :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:56:06 -0400 From: Subject: A Case of Carolina (SJC) Hi everyone! Let me (re)introduce myself. I am Joseph Palis. I used to end my message with Joseph in Manila, now I am in North Carolina latitudinally above Bob's SC dwelling place. My trip to the US from Manila via Tokyo can be another story similar to Stephen Frears' _Dirty Pretty Things_ (beautiful film, by the way... go watch it! please!), but I am reserving that story some other time. NC is great and UNC-Chapel Hill is even more wonderful -- huge campus, woodlands, and except for Starbucks and Gap, no big stores that remind you of how corporate the world has become now. Its hard to ascertain where the campus ends and where downtown begins. I am officially 7 days old in NC (spent two days each in LA and NY upon arrival) and although the humidity is quite similar to Manila, the hilly terrain between my apartment and the campus can off-put someone not used to walking. And although I have been here in Carolina a week, it was only 2 days ago when I got my school email. Early this morning, I went for a walk and wanted some home-grown coffee but the only one that's open before 7am is Starbucks, so I reluctantly went inside and bought me a hot chocolate. And Joni is singing "A Case of You" (_Blue_ version) and it was a great feeling. Its like seeing an old friend in a land that is so un-Asian. And yes, I know virtual communities like JMDL exist in the mind, but the happy memories I had for the past years as a JMDL member sort of made me feel at home right away in NC. And although grad school will probably kill my social life beginning this week as tons of reading are wiaitng to be read, my biggest dream is to attend a JoniFest. And see all of you, particularly Bob M., Vince, Kate B. and Sherrelle. Joseph in Chapel Hill PS. The first CD I bought in the US is Joni's DJRD in LA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:03:28 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Bad news for the Cover guy or a Les goof? njc At 8/27/2003 11:29 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >Boy, I feel bad now for bringing it up in the first place, but at >least in your suffering you can take solace in the fact that >somebody was actually reading your website. Don't worry about it Bob. Yes, heads did roll, but it's all for the better. We strive for the best for our website reader. Les, taking comfort in Wally's protection. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:12:04 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Bad news for the Cover guy or a Les goof? njc hi > > Damn. Not the Inner Circle. I'm screwed. > > Yes, it looks like it's the old "hot coals to the eyes" treatment > for you, pal! the inner circles catholic???????? ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:14:53 -0500 From: Subject: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 (NJC) Kate wrote, about Warren Zevon and sobriety: "if memory serves me i think he went into rehab (here in sb) around 79/80 but he may have not quit for certain until years later as often happens..." Kate, I think that's exactly what happened. He made a couple of well-publicized attempts to quit in the very late 70's/early 80's, and they each lasted for a while, but he didn't quit for good until going through some especially rough times in Philadelphia in the mid-80's. And I agree about his daughter's pregnancy (with TWINS, no less!) probably being a strong motivating factor for him to hang in there just a little bit longer. Take care, Mary. - --Can you tell I'm a Zevon fan, as well as a Joni fan? The things nobody knew about me. . . ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:20:23 -0400 From: "Lavieri, Vince [185776]" Subject: Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc Cynthia Vickery posted: "my dear friend and fellow alabamian chris gray said it best..., " the Bible actually comments on this situation. The book of Deuteronomy instructs the people to teach the commandments to their children in their homes. Odd thing is that God said nothing about granite monuments in courthouses, so I would presume that either God erred or that religion is a family matter, not a monument in the courthouse matter. And on that note, the Bible says a lot all the 8th century prophets, Jesus, the Psalms, etc) about what should be in the courts, which is justice, equity, and prefential treatment for the poor, and again, not a word about monuments. Jesus also says (in Matthew) to beware of practicing your religion in front of others to be seen, that people who do that already have their reward, which si nothing. Hmmmm........ And everyone except me misses the entire point of why that monument is so blatently a constitutional violation: Whose 10 commandments? Judaism, Lutherans/Roman catholics, and Protestantism all number the commandments differently. (God failed to include numbers in Exodus 20 where they are found.) That makes for some pretty sizable differences of opinion about what the commandments actually are and what they mean. The monument in Alabama used the protestant version, which means on state property a religious question was decided about what the actual 10 commandments are. Now since when do we allow the government to decide questions that have separated people of faith for several thousands of years? That monument is horribly out of line as a direct encroachment into religion by the government -- as well as what everyone else rightly sees, that it is a direct encroachment of religion into the public arena. Vince, ordained 26 years and a member of the ACLU for about as long ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:27 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 (NJC) thats great & it looks like we are turning this into the wz list today! lol... did i tell you about the time i went to a yard sale to discover it was wz's house? that's sb for you! (he lived up the street from me but i didn't know that until the yard sale)... jonathan winters used to walk by my house too...whenver he met anyone out & about he was ALWAYS on... which strangely enough reminds me (mercury retrograde?) of the katharine hepburn discussion we had...was in smurph who used to walk by her house? anyway the article (or maybe it was a book review) mentioned how much she liked to be noticed & once stood at her gate in nyc saying a loud goodbye hoping to be noticed (according to the person she was saying goodbye to) Mary. - --Can you tell I'm a Zevon fan, as well as a Joni fan? The things nobody knew about me. . . ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:28:59 -0400 From: "Scott and Jody" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) Happy Birthday Mingus!!!!! It was great meeting and talking with you, although it was much too brief. We loved your story about meeting Jimmy and Ed :~D ' And the seasons they go round and round.' jody and scott - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wally Kairuz" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: RE: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) > mingus, > i've never met you but i've heard so many wonderful things about you that i > feel as if i knew you a little. let me send you a big hug from the southern > hemisphere on this cold winter afternoon. i am sure you'll get a hug from > every continent! > happy birthday!!!! > wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:31:08 -0400 From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC In a message dated 8/27/2003 3:08:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > i look forward to getting this cd...there was one song in particular that > really moved me (kinda gospel/folky but i can't remember > words or anything Was it Keep Me In Your Heart? That was the most touching song. rosie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:43:46 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Warren Zevon on VH1 NJC i don't think so but i agree that was deep...i'm thinking of something played earlier, maybe it didn't have vocals yet...i'll know it when i hear it...sounded different from anything i've heard him write...mesmerizing & mellow... >Was it Keep Me In Your Heart? That was the most touching song. rosie< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:50:49 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc hi >>>>>vince wrote >>>>> Odd thing is that God said nothing about granite monuments in courthouses, funny - i thought god said plenty about monuments in general. something about "graven images" now lets see - umm, a monument enshrining a commandment not to build monuments - hell yeah - this guy y'all talking 'bout makes a whole lot of sense? and something i just noticed - just as a question. exodus 20 is where god gives the 10 "commandments" - i dont see anythings that says "commandment" - it just says "god spoke". in chapter 21 where theres a whole string of other laws - god says commandments in deutoronomy five *moses* speaks to the people & calls them "commandments" - gee - i dunno - the first example of religion cocking things up for the people???????????? probably not..............."god" spoke probably pretty much constitutes a "commandment" i guess???? up till now my take has pretty much been that under the old testament they were "commandments" and under the new they become "promises" - kind of like seek after god and you will *become* this person, free of all that bondage & baggage who will live a life that pretty much fulfills all ten - the bible clearly distinguishes between the old law written on stone & the new written on flesh............... and anyhow - your entire nation is so obviously ungodly atheistic and communistic anyhoo - i mean come on "ten" commandments - god endorsed the metric system all that time ago & here you *still* stick to imperial - get with the divine plan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ron np - zoe bliss - boy - thanks mags!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:11:07 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) Happy Birthday, Mingus, who shares a birthday with Pee Wee Herman and Mother Teresa! Love and hugs, Kerry P.S. Thanks again for my special birthday surprise at the fest! - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ross, Les To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:32 AM Subject: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) > Paging Mingus! > > Step up child. Today's your Big Day! > > Delighted to have met you this year at the North East Jonifest! Hope you > have a lovely birthday. > > Sending Best Wishes and 'Targeted' Hugs from across The Pond. > > Les (London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:11:11 -0400 From: Jupydoo@aol.com Subject: Re: New Joni DVD > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:24:58 +0100 > From: "Adam Mulvey" > Subject: New Joni DVD > > Has anyone seen the new 'Woman of Heart and Mind' DVD? It looks really > good - there's a fantastic review in Word magazine this > month. > > Adam Actually, I saw this film on PBS in march or so and loved it, so I went on Ebay and bought it for 15 bucks. I'd recommend it, thought not if you are REALLY nitpicky with Joni history. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:15:40 -0400 From: Jupydoo@aol.com Subject: Re: "It's the Mormons!" njc > > MAYBEjust maybe THERE NOT PART OF THE INNER CIRCLE > >and it turns out to be the > >Methodists or the Baptists! Shreeeeeeeeeeeeeek! > > oooh, no sorry, wrong answer! It's the MORMONS! you'll > see. > >just dropping in, >alison e. in slc Lol... what if it IS the mormons? I'll put in a good word for you all;) (I'm one of THEM...) Not very often you find an 18-year-old mormon hippy, especially not in Happy Valley, Utah (BYU)! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:31:58 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) -----Original Message----- From: hell [mailto:hell@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:27 AM To: Maggie McNally; Kay Ashley; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) Maggie wrote: > Here's my take on the roots of sexism. I think that much > of the repression to which you refer, Kay, actually has its > roots in the very base instinct to pursue maximum opportunity > to reproduce. This is seen in wildlife, and in human patterns > of behavior as well. Men cannot reproduce, they can only get > women to do the reproducing for them. But, because they are > not the ones carrying the child, they can actually have much > greater success in reproducing than can the woman. Men > have zillions of chances to reproduce when you count how > many seeds they have, but woman only have so many eggs > (even Guzzi with her golden eggs). So, controlling women is > the best route to having maximum contribution to the next > generation's gene pool, and for parents, having sons is the > best way to ensure that THEIR genes get passed on, too. > I'm probably doing a really crappy job of explaining myself > here...what we need is a bottle of wine and a spot on the > front porch at Jonifest to *really* get into this (and I want > Vince to join us on the porch). You're doing a damn fine job of explaining yourself in my opinion, and so is Kay! I love this subject, and could discuss it for hours I wish we were at Full Moon too, we'd be on that porch into the wee small hours! Next year, maybe (2005, for sure)! NOW ME: You're on...I can wait to have this conversation...whenever you (and your fabulous raffle donations) can join us. One thing you didn't mention, and that is women's "dependence" on men, particularly our Cro-Magnon ancestors. During pregnancy, particularly in the latter stages (and also after birth), women would have been unable to hunt for food, or gather crops, so were dependent on men to keep them supplied with food, shelter, protection from animals, etc. A woman could probably "survive" without meat for a while - just by gathering plants etc. but our ancestors needed animal fat for warmth and fuel, not to mention the myriad of other uses for the animal, such as warm furs and bones for tools, etc. And not only pregnant women. Men are and were structurally different from women, and usually stronger and with more muscle in relation to body fat (generally speaking - there are always exceptions!). Women need body fat to keep their bodies (and unborn children) warm and well-fed. As a result, men would have been more efficient hunters, and able to provide more in the way of animals. For a community to survive, they would have had to divide tasks as a result, with the "cave-bound" women tending to the children, and cooking and cleaning, while the men were out looking for wildebeest and mammoths to kill. As time went by, these "divisions" in labour, would have become instinctive. Not so far removed from more recent years, where the woman stays home to mind the kids, and do the vacuuming, while to man goes out to battle with a pen and briefcase - as opposed to a flint knife and a big stick! NOW ME: Point well taken. When we think of it this way it seems more cooperative and less oppressive, does it not? It takes some of the sting out, and allows us to think in terms of having evolved to play to our strengths. When we think of it in this way we end up being able to see that when circumstances change, people can change...as long as we continue to play to our strengths. For example, I am a good navigator. I read maps well. So, over the years of being with Alex we have gotten to the point where whenever we are going someplace new he drives and I'm in the jump seat so that I can navigate. From the outside looking in, it could look like: the man of the house drives, the little woman is the passive passenger. You who know us know full well that this is not the case (in the least...LOL!!), but it is a case of playing to our respective strengths. It's also important (as Maggie said) to remember that the changes that we've seen even in the last 100 years, with women and men sharing workloads and child-raising are a drop in the ocean of the history of the evolution of humankind, and it's only our ability to think and reason that allows us to accept that these changes are necessary or "good". We've got thousands of years of instinct against us - which is maybe why some people DO have a hard time with these concepts. I'm not saying those people are less "evolved" than anyone else (although personally I CAN think of a few people that would fit that description!), but I think people do forget that sudden changes in what is essentially instinctive behaviours are going to have much larger ramifications than we sometimes realise. The popularity of sports, particularly among males (although I'm certainly not excluding females - especially myself!) might be simply an innate desire to release some of that previously needed aggression. It was certainly needed by our Cro-Magnon ancestors to hunt and kill wild animals, and also to fend off and escape from predators of human flesh, but there are few jobs that require that kind of adrenalin and aggression these days - I can think of a few, like fire fighters, soldiers, rodeo cowboys, stuntmen, etc. but they are certainly not the norm. There are also plenty of documented Cro-Magnon cave paintings of hunting scenes, which perhaps indicates that the best hunters were revered by all (maybe men and women), in a similar way in which our top sports people, and even some professions (like the ones I mentioned) are revered now? NOW ME: Interesting theory, Hell. I once asked my sister-in-law why she loved football so and she got all caught up in describing how much she loved the sight of men out there on the field doing battle, being all tough. On some primal level she probably thinks they are battling for the right to procreate with her!!! Like I said, I could talk about this stuff for hours (I should have studied anthropology, but NZ's human history only goes back 1300 years!) but I won't bore you any more. I've probably written a whole digest on my own, anyway! Thanks for the exchange. I enjoyed it and look forward to more on the porch at Jonifest. Best, Maggie Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Home Page - NEW & IMPROVED! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:33:31 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) Oh, dear David Mingus. H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y T O Y O U ! ! ! I so enjoyed meeting you and Dave at Jonifest and look forward to many, many more. With love, Maggie -----Original Message----- From: Ross, Les [mailto:LXROSS@ctrl.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:33 AM To: 'Joni@smoe.org'; 'MINGSDANCE@aol.com' Subject: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) Paging Mingus! Step up child. Today's your Big Day! Delighted to have met you this year at the North East Jonifest! Hope you have a lovely birthday. Sending Best Wishes and 'Targeted' Hugs from across The Pond. Les (London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:33:22 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Mercury retrograde (njc) Marianne Rizzo wrote: > ps. I can see Mecury in the eastern sky. . . shining a bright orange. . > I don't know for how much longer it will be You are looking at Mars, which has also been retrograde, but is getting ready to go direct. RR np: Bangles "Doll Revolution" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:50:54 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc Well, Bob, you should REALLY like this guy, as in his bio point #32 is, and I quote, "When asked about 'favorite' music the only answer I ever give is Tom Waits." Cindy - He sounds like a cool guy (except for the "just" right of center comment...I need all the "left of center" fellows I can find in this poor country). Maggie - who wants to know who Bob has killed -----Original Message----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com [mailto:SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:43 PM To: "Cynthia Vickery"; alisone4@yahoo.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc In a message dated 8/27/2003 2:11:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cvickery@danielrealty.com writes: > That - and did Alabama really need (yet) another black > eye?" Hey, better Alabama than SC...we got no eyes left, plus we've shot off both feet! :~) Seriously, thanks for sharing that piece, neighbor. I thought he pretty much hit it right on the head. Bob, who is pretty much ten-for-ten on broken commandments... NP: Tom Waits, "Fumblin' With The Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:04:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Bad news for the Cover guy or a Les goof? njc --- Les Irvin wrote: > At 8/27/2003 11:29 AM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > >Boy, I feel bad now for bringing it up in the first > place, but at > >least in your suffering you can take solace in the > fact that > >somebody was actually reading your website. > > Don't worry about it Bob. Yes, heads did roll, but > it's all for the > better. We strive for the best for our website > reader. > > Les, taking comfort in Wally's protection. Omigod! So many posts from Les Irvin in one day! Does it have something to do with Mars? or that Mercury-in-retrograde thing? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:08:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A Case of Carolina (NJC) --- palis@email.unc.edu wrote: > Hi everyone! > > Let me (re)introduce myself. I am Joseph Palis. I > used to end my > message with Joseph in Manila, now I am in North > Carolina latitudinally > above Bob's SC dwelling place. Hey, Joseph - welcome to North America! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:07:32 +0200 From: Emi Subject: Re: question Hi, Steve! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "StephenToogood" To: "Joni List" Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Joni on Last Waltz + question > Does anyone have much of an insight to what 'Passion Play' may be about? > There seems to be a slavery theme and a few religious lines plus something > about renewal in men but I'm a bit stuck on this one. > I'm so in love with it right now. I even appreciate the synth touches which > bothered me before. There really is a lot more instrumentation detail in > that song than I once thought. > > Steve Well, Passion Play (When all the slaves are free) is one of my favourite songs! I asked in list about that Exxon Blue in april: There were many kind answers, but the most interesant (or, at least, extended) were from Mark , Hell, and even Theodore (Sun, 13 Apr 2003). I send you privately the contributions listed above Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:18:56 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: staring a hole >I used Mitchell's rendition of "You've Changed" as a premise and >sound >track. Thanks for sharing it, Cul...it reminded me of the photographs of Matt Mahurin, which I always find interesting, crossed with the Joni "Indian Blanket" photos from the CMIARS photo sessions. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:24:51 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: NJC Re: A Case of Carolina (SJC) Hi Joseph! I was just thinking that you should be landing in James Taylor country by now...I've been on that campus many times, and it is indeed beautiful. As are those Carolina girls, so keep your eyes and mind on those books! ;~) And don't forget that Springsteen is coming to town in a couple of weeks...Rosie, get thee to UNC and show Joseph a Boss time! Looking forward to finding out when you're going to have a study break so we can get together - can't wait. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:48:06 -0400 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: religion/Roy Moore - LONG and njc Muller writes: > Bob, who is pretty much ten-for-ten on broken > commandments... Gee, Bob, you really only *attempted* to kill me. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:18:22 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: mystical happenings I loved reading the artcle "The education of Joni Mitchell".I really related to the section where she said,she'll read certain books,and certain things in the book will just strike her in a deep,intuitive way,and she'll stop reading the book and go onto another book.and the same thing will happen,and she'll draw a connection between the insights in all the books she's read(without finishing the books...)The same things has happened to me.Certain things I read will lead to insights and I can connect it to other insights(whether from a book or not.and again,I only have to read certain sections.I don't have to finish the book.)I also strongly relate to Joni's ideas about synchronicity,in her early 780's interview.I literally can't count the number of times that I'll be thinking about a person,place,song ect..and at that very minute I'll turn on the tv,the radio,or look at a newspaper or the internet and see the person I was thinking about or hear the very song I was thinking about.If this happened once or twice I would dismiss it as coincidence,but this has literally happened MANY times...there must be more to it... _________________________________________________________________ Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary J Blige using MSN Messenger http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:31:06 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Warren Zevon on VH1 (NJC) Kate writes: << was in smurph who used to walk by her house? anyway the article (or maybe it was a book review) mentioned how much she liked to be noticed & once stood at her gate in nyc saying a loud goodbye hoping to be noticed >> Yes, Kate, t'was I. But she used to hide when I walked by on my way to and from work -- not stalking, honest! - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:34:46 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: New Joni DVD You've only watched it four times? You *should* be embarassed! At 11:42 AM 8/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: >It's to die for my dear! Go buy it right now! You will not be sorry! >I'm embarassed (among non-jmdl'rs) to say I've already watched it start >to finish 4 times!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:54:40 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: my take on nuns (njc) You only picked me cause I am in touch with my feminine side and of course understandably she is a lesbian. LMAO!! Paz > oh well, anyways... i'd STILL like to do the "how do you solve a problem > like maria" number at jonifest someday with steve polifka, jimmy, bob > murphy, les ross, chris and of course *I* in the role of the mother abbess. > i will look pensive and firm yet *understanding*. and i'll cherish my > exchange with sister margaretta: > > SISTER MARGARETTA (maybe les ross in his best soprano): "i'd like to say a > word in her behalf." > MOTHER ABBESS (me, rather majestically): "THEN SAY IT, SISTER MARGARETTA!" > SISTER MARGARETTA: "maria... makes me... LAUGH!" > (all the nuns break into restrained, bell-like laughter. that is where i > look stern although i DO remember my younger years and try to conceal half a > smile!) > > and i want michael paz as maria, running, his head uncovered, coming back > from the hills. > and don't ask "why paz???" because i'll accuse you all of heterophobia. > > wally, great in black (maybe some pearls? are abbesses allowed to wear > pearls now and then?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:06:10 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Magdalene Laundries/religion - njc Hello Love It's always nice having such lite conversation with you. Of course a fifth of booze you twit and GIN at that of course. And I forgot you are no longer a sinneer since you quit Partying late. Paz >> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:46:39 -0700 >> From: Michael Paz >> Subject: Re: Magdalene Laundries - njc >> Has anyone read "Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom >> Robbins?? > > yes, and it is one of the most brilliant tomes on > religion ever written. and a hell of a lot of fun to > read. > >> 1) Where ever you find 1 or 2 Episcopalians you >will > find a fifth. > > a fifth of liquor, right? that's right where my mind > went! > >> they could get down to the comforting of sinners >> that we all are. > > speak for yourself! > >> MAYBEjust maybe THERE NOT PART OF THE INNER CIRCLE >> and it turns out to be the >> Methodists or the Baptists! Shreeeeeeeeeeeeeek! > > oooh, no sorry, wrong answer! It's the MORMONS! you'll > see. > >> Why oh why can't I be >> totally serious for just once? >> Paz (Paz In Shades of the His Corner Smoldering) > > and this is where i disagree again...the most > fundamental problem with religion is that people take > it TOO SERIOUSLY...case in point, those good ol' folks > down in Alabama who refuse to leave the courthouse > where the ten commandments monument was removed...and > the dozens of people who just died in a stampede in > India trying to get to the sacred river water and > bathe as part of a holy celebration...or the mormon > church's lovely reaction to John Krakauer's new book > about fundamentalist polygamist mormon guy who > slaughtered his sister's wife and baby daughter as > they lay sleeping because "GOD told him to do it"... > Hey, after all, "Congress shall make no law respecting > an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free > exercise thereof" which conversely means that I have > the right to avoid religion and not be hounded daily > by the barrage of bullshit that comes from the mouths > of most religious leaders. And spirituality and > religion AREN'T the same, in fact i find much of the > time there's a big ol' disconnect. > ...this about sums it up: > "The more I study religions the more I am convinced > that man never worshipped anything but himself. > Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)" > "Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and > myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be > sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful > to society the religion which has regulated it cannot > be a bad one. > Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)" > and finally: > "If God dwells inside us like some people say....I > sure hope he likes enchiladas, cuz thats what he's > getting." -- Jack Handy > just dropping in, > alison e. in slc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:10:35 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] kakki wrote: > Kay and Maggie - you've said what I wanted to say but was prevented > from chest constriction and loss of oxygen to the brain on the > Catholic thread: > >> And this part of your answer also gives hope -- our cognitive >> abilities allow us to "decide" to evolve further. And, to come full >> circle, isn't that really the higher purpose of all the religions? >> To show us how to evolve into something better? > > Exactly. I've been mulling this one over and it seems to me that religion itself has evolved. My understanding is that religion most probably began as a way for humans to explain natural phenomena and to subsequently influence or appease those phenoma in order to thrive and survive. This led to the concept of gods and spirits and other supernatural beings. Rituals were developed to appeal to these beings and ask for their help or to avert their wrath. These rituals often involved sacrifices of one kind or another in many cultures and eventually codes of behavior were developed partly for practical reasons and partly as deference to and appeasement of these deities. It seems to me that, initially, religion had little to do with a 'higher purpose'. It was mainly a way to try and barter with unknown and misunderstood forces of nature for physical well-being in a harsh world. There is much in modern day religion that certainly seeks to make us into more highly evolved, compassionate and spiritual beings but I think that has only come about in more recent history (recent being relative to the long history of the species and the even longer history of the earth). Personally, I still don't see why we need it, at least the organized variety. Maybe I wouldn't have known that compassion and love are virtues if I hadn't been brought up in a Christian home and taken to Sunday school and church. I suppose that is possible although I would like to think otherwise. But I don't see why the view that each life is precious and that all of us are connected and need one another and therefore we *have* to treat one another as well as we possibly can and *love* as much as we are capable - I don't see why that concept has to come from a church or a book. Or why it has to be connected so some complex system of belief that seeks to define what to me is indefinable. To me it is just common sense. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:19:15 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: A Case of Carolina (SJC) Joseph!!! So good to hear from you again and on a closer shore. Welcome back and hope to hear much more from you. Hope the new digs suit you well. Best Paz > Hi everyone! > > Let me (re)introduce myself. I am Joseph Palis. I used to end my > message with Joseph in Manila, now I am in North Carolina latitudinally > above Bob's SC dwelling place. My trip to the US from Manila via Tokyo > can be another story similar to Stephen Frears' _Dirty Pretty Things_ > (beautiful film, by the way... go watch it! please!), but I am > reserving that story some other time. > > NC is great and UNC-Chapel Hill is even more wonderful -- huge campus, > woodlands, and except for Starbucks and Gap, no big stores that remind > you of how corporate the world has become now. Its hard to ascertain > where the campus ends and where downtown begins. > > I am officially 7 days old in NC (spent two days each in LA and NY upon > arrival) and although the humidity is quite similar to Manila, the > hilly terrain between my apartment and the campus can off-put someone > not used to walking. > > And although I have been here in Carolina a week, it was only 2 days > ago when I got my school email. Early this morning, I went for a walk > and wanted some home-grown coffee but the only one that's open before > 7am is Starbucks, so I reluctantly went inside and bought me a hot > chocolate. And Joni is singing "A Case of You" (_Blue_ version) and it > was a great feeling. Its like seeing an old friend in a land that is so > un-Asian. And yes, I know virtual communities like JMDL exist in the > mind, but the happy memories I had for the past years as a JMDL member > sort of made me feel at home right away in NC. > > And although grad school will probably kill my social life beginning > this week as tons of reading are wiaitng to be read, my biggest dream > is to attend a JoniFest. And see all of you, particularly Bob M., > Vince, Kate B. and Sherrelle. > > Joseph in Chapel Hill > > PS. The first CD I bought in the US is Joni's DJRD in LA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:22:23 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Happy Birthday Mingus (NJC) Yo Ming! Hope you had a wonderful day and I had a huge icy cold martini earlier in your honour. Love Paz (looking at your pic on my desk) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:33:37 -0400 From: vince Subject: Sports & yankees suc--- oops, I mean, play poorly njc White Sox fans accept yankee fans - we won 13-2 over the yankees last night and 11-2 over the yankees tonight - we need teams to beat up on (ok Hell, fodder for your theory!) and the yankees are but grass for us to walk on and through. Go Sox! Vince Maggie McNally wrote: >Hey, Vince, them's fighting words. As I told a fan in the stands at the Lowell Spinners game on Sunday when he started hissing because someone with a Yankees hat came by, if we expect the Israelis and Palestinians to get along and live side-by-side then we had better start by accepting Yankee fans at our ballgames. I know, it hurts, but something survives. ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:01:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Stupid quotes njc If there's a prize for the dumbest quotes ever, this one could be a contender. From a Toronto Star story today regarding a slaughterhouse that was closed down because it was discovered they were using meat from animals that were already dead when they were delivered to the plant: "Mansel Griffiths, a microbiologist and director of the Canadian Research Institute for Food Safety, said "it's a really bad idea" to slaughter dead animals." Overkill anyone? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #427 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)