From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #424 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 27 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 424 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: I'm a desperate fan! [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= ] Re: Joni & Sports [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Baltimore catechism question njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni & Sports njc [vince ] Re: staring a hole? ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Joni & Sports 100% JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: staring a hole? ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: that f*ng aol, again NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: warren zevon on vh1 [RoseMJoy@aol.com] I'm a desperate fan! ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc [Catherine McKay ] staring a hole [cul heath ] Re: staring a hole? [Michael Paz ] Re: little ireland njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] ["kakki" <] Re: Magdalene Laundries - njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: Baltimore catechism question njc ["kakki" ] RE: warren zevon on vh1 ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Baltimore catechism question njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: St. Kakki ["kakki" ] FW: Joni on Rolling Stone's poll of top guitarists ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: RC church - njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: nuns (njc) [Susan Guzzi ] Re: nuns (njc) [Murphycopy@aol.com] I'm a desperate fan! ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: nuns (njc) [vince ] RE: my take on nuns (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:27:20 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Re: I'm a desperate fan! Monica, try rejoicing HOSL & DJRD by now, and tell all your friends and family about it for your next BD ;-) Where are you from? Here in Spain there aren't many SIQUOMB's albums in stores... but the wwweb sellers ship worlwide: try Armedio.com: it has very nice prizes. Yours: Emiliano - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Anastase" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:13 AM Subject: I'm a desperate fan! > I have been lookink for Joni's albums like crazy and have been quite unlucky. I've only found "Hissing of summer lawns", "Don Juan's reckless daughter" and that's about all. And I'm spending hours and hours on the net using Kazaa, but it's very hard.... I thought maybe some other of you fans of hers could help me in some way.... > > Please help meeeeeeeee!! > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:28:39 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Re: sexism in the temptation stories- n j c Wow, Ron! You've settled it down so well, IMHO! I think I'd like to have this Ron's post as the last, at least 'till xmas, about churches. Great Les Ross rendition... it's on its (long) way to me, I'll let you know when I delight in it. Ruby Mary Neruda J. McBride's *herstory*... so masterly written by you, Lucy... Vince's post... so useful & inspired at always... Catherine, Mark, Kakki, Kate et al.... you rock! but carry on with the churches... would you please take this to JMDLPoliticalContent Many many thanks & Have a Wonderful time: Emiliano PS: let me post twice this: > when the bible clearly states that we are tempted by being led astray of our > *own* lusts............ NP: Tom Waits: Tom Traubert's Blues (you'll go Waltzing Matilda with me) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron" To: "vince" Cc: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:08 PM Subject: Re: sexism in the temptation stories- now joni content > hi > >>>>>>vince wrote -[reflecting some normal way of thinking] > >>>>>>Boys may sow their wild oats, but girls are bad and > the bad influence/corrupting girls must be put away. > > > well, i have heard a couple of different teachings on this, within the same > church. seems to me the only real sexism evident in the story is that of > adam. closely followed on that is the blaming of god for our own actions.. > adam blamed first the woman, - the *woman* - then god - that *you* gave > me.......... > > now the women in the magdalene laundries get blamed for being "temptresses" > when the bible clearly states that we are tempted by being led astray of our > *own* lusts............ > > and also people blame god for our actions. bad experiences with churches, > "christians" etc lead to rejection / condemnation of god instead of the > people who are responsible. > > and one of the reason why i love the magdalene laundries is quite simply > because joni nailed it right on. she blames the people, not god. > > These bloodless brides of Jesus > If they had just once glimpsed their groom > Then they'd know and they'd drop the stones > Concealed behind their rosaries > They wilt the grass they walk upon > They leech the light out of a room > They'd like to drive us down the drain > At the Magdalene laundries > > and of course, a special thanks is due to Les Ross for bringing something so > fresh and gentle and beautiful to the song. people talk about hearing a pin > drop - man, i dont think anyone would have heard an anvil drop in that hall > during that set - all attention was fully focussed.............. > > > > ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:14:26 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Re: joni mentions and pic in uncut magazine Hum, that's one of my favourite sports: gossip, yeah! Thank, Ron! BTW I confess that for ages I thought Neil was the *only* in CSN&Y "related" to Joni! You know, that Last Waltz's Helpless you remember, it was a Full Force Gale for me! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron" To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: joni mentions and pic in uncut magazine > hi > > > not sure if anyone mentioned this yet - the july issue of uncut has a feature > article on neil young. theres mention of her in the main story, as well as a > pic of him with joni, and a sidebar discussing him and jonis relationship. > they say that circle game was written for neil, in response to sugar mountain, > which ive never heard before - well not the songg - ive heard both songs - i > just never heard that circle game was written for neil :-) > > they also mention that neil wrote "sweet joni" for her, "only love can break > your heart" is about her & graham nash, and mention that there has been > speculation that "stupid girl" was written for her as well. > > > ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:44:56 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: that f*ng aol, again NJC Hi, Dears, excuse me if I post something personal, but are aol members receiving this? I have received *three* "Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed" from aol members in the last days, so imagine I don't think america on line doesn't talk punnetero espannol, !Vamos! Yours for Life: Emiliano NP: See You Sometime (I'm not menacing :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:08:22 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: that f*ng aol, again NJC In a message dated 8/26/2003 8:46:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emilianopd@mundo-r.com writes: excuse me if I post something personal, but are aol members receiving this? No problem here, Emiliano...hear you loud & clear dude! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:13:58 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc >A. This sin is called original because it comes down to us from our first parents, and we are brought into the world with its guilt on our souls.< wow, people really belief this s@#$! i have a friend who considers himself a recovering catholic...now i see why...forgive me, i don't mean to be knocking anyone's belief system & i hope my opinion doesn't offend anyone...but the above is such a sorry way to view life IMO of course...i prefer to believe that we come into this world with great wisdom & goodness... speaking of this subject (sort of) has anyone read the davinci code? a friend recommended it to me...there's nothing fabulously poetic or literary or creative in the actual writing buts its a great page turner & has much about mary magdelene & the catholic religion & art history that makes it very interesting...it will make a cool movie someday! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:24:05 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: staring a hole? i'm not sure if i totally understand your question wally but to me this sentence works because it describes the kind of stare that is laser like, creating a hole... after i gave birth i remember writing a little poem about how i was staring a hole in the tea cup (you were supposed to pick something to focus on while you were breathing during contractions)...now i know where i got that expression from! >i've just realized that this line from coyote seems to lack a preposition. don't people always say "stare AT something"? does "staring a hole in his scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic?< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:22:21 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & Sports In a message dated 8/26/2003 5:33:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, p.a.oconnor@worldnet.att.net writes: >Is this unusual do you think? I'm trying to think of sports >references in song and besides the famous few there aren't that >many sports >based songs, are there? I guess I was comparing her with the male songwriters I listen to (Springsteen, Waits, etc.) so there are not as many sports references as you'd think. Plus, it just seems that Joni writes about EVERYTHING. >I don't suppose "Yankee Yachts and lobster pots" qualifies... :>) I don't think so, but it gave me a good chuckle! And if it pulled you out of delurk mode even for just a moment it was worthwhile. Great to hear from you Patty! Bob NP: Landscape Prayers, "Topper Seven" (Hey Ron, this SA sampler is a rockin' good time!! Thanks so much for the effort.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:34:14 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Baltimore catechism question njc >maybe your congregation was run by a particularly good natured order of Franciscans or other very loving people. I have lots of friends there among the Franciscans..< unfortunately in our town the franciscans (some of them) have been proven guilty of child molestation too...a good friend's brothers were molested (in the church choir)...this deeply hurt the mother but she remains loyal to the church itself... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:38:57 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: Joni & Sports njc please keep the filth words like yankees and red sox out of the JMDL Score right now: White Sox 11 Yankees 0 bottom of the 8th Vince, hoping that in 2004 the JoniFest will not be the same weekend as a Sox home series or the Democratic convention Patricia O'Connor wrote: > > >I don't suppose "Yankee Yachts and lobster pots" qualifies... :>) >How about if it was Yankee bats and lobster pots, but you'd have to use a >Red Sox fan's accent to make the rhyme. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:37:58 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: staring a hole? Yes, it a colloquial verbal, expression. There is an implied phrase. She's saying, "Coyote was lost in thought during breakfast. He was staring into his eggs as if to burn a hole through them." In Ohio during the 80s, one might have heard, "You're gonna stare a hole though that poster of Farrah Fawcett." There's probably a better example out there but it's the first one in my brain. Besides, "in his scrambled eggs" is already a prepositional phrase....... Lama Wally asked, > i've just realized that this line from coyote seems to lack a preposition. don't people always say "stare AT something"? does "staring a hole in his scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic?> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:51:58 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc >speaking of this subject (sort of) has anyone read the davinci code? a >friend recommended it to me...there's nothing fabulously poetic or literary >or creative in the actual writing buts its a great page turner & has much >about mary magdelene & the catholic religion & art history that makes it >very interesting...it will make a cool movie someday! Hi Kate! This is the book Mingus passed along at the book thing at the fest. . (after everyone got their turn talking about the book that had made such a impact on them... they were thrown into the middle of the floor and everyone grabbed one. ) I don't who fetched the Davinci Code Bree > > >******************************************** >Kate Bennett >www.katebennett.com >sponsored by Polysonics >Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: >http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html >******************************************** _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:02:49 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: warren zevon on vh1 thanks to anne for bringing this show to my attention...it was a wonderful, funny, tender & very moving tribute to the man...i admire so much what he is doing right now & so happy he was able to complete his project & see his grandsons born...i loved the conversation between warren & gorge (old friend & producer of his album) which reminded me a bit of what a great friend nash has been to crosby...did anyone else see it? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:57:12 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Joni & Sports 100% JC Sometimes she's been negative about sports. Yeah. But then she noted some skaters circling in vigorous anonymity. [Jesus, what a mouthful. What a nervy broad!] She's generally positive about dancing. To one of my ex-girlfriends, it was a *very* real substitution. (Imagine a 20-year-old who does 6 hours of high-impact dance-ercise every week. In shorts. If she asked you if dancercise "counts" as a sport, you'd be a believer!) BTW, tonight I did a full hour on the NordicTrak for the first time in 6 months. Slowly mind you, but I finished the hour. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:06:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: staring a hole? kate, cath, jim, kerry and all the others the took the time, thank you!!!! i do get it now! my non-native speaker ear was taking the expression literally, that's why i thought i was missing a preposition. what a great line now that i understand it! love to you all, my dears, as emiliano says. wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:09:19 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: that f*ng aol, again NJC well, my dear, one more advantage of not using aol: i can read you loud and clear! wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:12:48 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: warren zevon on vh1 In a message dated 8/26/03 10:02:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: > ...did anyone else see it? > > me saw it. I had to laugh when he met Bruce and said "You really are you!!!! What a witty guy he is despite his illness. I love the songs on his new CD. I can't wait to get it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:12:13 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: I'm a desperate fan! Hi Monica, I've never heard of a store called "Kazaa". If you want the CDs, try www.amazon.com . If you want the LPs, go to www.ebay.com . If "Kazaa" is anything like "Napster", then I can't possibly help you. The visual work on her albums is as rich as her music and her words. To get the full effect you need the whole package. Now that you've absorbed "Hissing" and "Don Juan", you have an idea of the quality she will bring to your purchases. Lay your hands on the CD player and repeat this five times: "I have found the milk of the Madonna." "I am saved." Go forth and sin no more, my child. Lama >>I have been lookink for Joni's albums like crazy and have been quite unlucky. I've only found "Hissing of summer lawns", "Don Juan's reckless daughter" and that's about all. And I'm spending hours and hours on the net using Kazaa, but it's very hard.... I thought maybe some other of you fans of hers could help me in some way....>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:23:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc --- Kate Bennett wrote: > >A. This sin is called original because it comes > down to us from our > first parents, and we are brought into the world > with its guilt on our > souls.< > > wow, people really belief this s@#$! i have a friend > who considers himself a > recovering catholic...now i see why...forgive me, i > don't mean to be > knocking anyone's belief system & i hope my opinion > doesn't offend > anyone...but the above is such a sorry way to view > life IMO of course...i > prefer to believe that we come into this world with > great wisdom & > goodness... Bleak as hell, ain't it? Where are the razor blades? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:26:16 -0400 From: greenstudio@northcom.net Subject: little ireland I wish I could say I'm surprised at the intensity of feeling and opinion regarding Catholicism and "organized religion" just lately on the list, but oddly enough I've been thinking about such matters in a place where we don't much discuss these matters and it was kinda cool to hear y'all contributing your voices to the ones in my head. And Kakki the voice of cautious reason, that was good too. I live all of a sudden (this was not what I imagined - things fall so oddly into place) in a sort of little Ireland in Ontario in Canada, about four hours north of the big smoke Toronto. Barely a village. The church bells measure my days. Once last winter I saw a tall thin priest in a black cassock making a house call at the big, white house across the highway. He was the only black thing in the landscape, the only tailored thing. My father was born here, Irish-Indian Backwoods catholic. It was his romantic fortune to marry a fanatic backwood Baptist. Scandalous. This was the early fifties. I'm pretty well aquainted with anti catholic and anti protestant bigotry. I'm the skeptical child of it, or more exactly, perhaps of it being transcended. My ma had less trouble accepting my first boyfriend than she had accepting that for quite awhile I made my living painting traditional icons for a living. Homosexuality was a little less a leap than idolatry and Mary worship. So I've studied closely too people's reactions to religious symbolism... reacting at shows to the crucifixes and totems of their childhoods, happily or not, and to my usually rather wined up and not significantly spiritual looking presence as creator. How odd a world it was, and oh it has changed. I work in the kitchen in the hotel up the street with my own Cherokee Louise (jonicontent) and my old Catholic aunts come in on Sunday after mass and I sneak them extra whipped cream. I have a beer now and then with a catholic cousin in the roadhouse and even with the most mullettted and drunk of them there's this complete bafflement about what our parents were fighting about. The place was so isolated then. We get a busload of European hikers through a day to the hostel, and people don't divide up into camps so much. But here's the clinker, the point of the story: the old guy downstairs was a friend of my father's, and delusional at the best of times, (my spousal unit says he's like an obscene Elmer Fudd), and if he's drinking and he lays eyes on me he'll go on all night long sometimes in the room under my painting studio, arguing the old arguments about religion with my long dead daddy, who won't even come downstairs for a shot since he met that protestant so and so down the hill, until he falls to sleep. Very Stephen King and kinda spooky so you can see how I might be a little reassured by this lately coming up on the list as something people are also a little hopped up about out in the real world.. Sometimes you don't know what surface to scratch. Thanks guys. Sorry to be long winded. Here's some just barely Joni content, probably familiar only to Catherine in Toronto. I don't know. I've been away. I tend to get a lot of faith hill right in the face at work so I wash off lately by listening to a woman new to me, though she used to play now and then at a bar in my last town, one Laura Smith. In the album liner notes she writes "London Ontario.... too far from the ocean, I'd say...but I had a radio there and my brother had records.... Blind Faith, Paul Nero, Joni Mitchell, Astrid Gilberto..." Nice collection. I've drifted far into nameless ambient downtempo for lack of a decent hook, but this woman had me reading liner notes and lyrics like a little girl all over again. That was nice. There's a regionalism to some of her work that might be off-putting, but she indulges in her own voice. As I fear I have here been overdoing. Take care all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:41:13 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] Kay writes: << now, if we could only convince our men to incubate all the eggs like the Argentinian ostrich. ;-) >> If Wally so much as glances at my sweet Guzzi there will be hell to pay. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:46:39 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Magdalene Laundries - njc Thanks all for the comments on this topic. Far be it for me to get sucked into a conversation about this kind of topic but..... In a weak moment... Has anyone read "Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom Robbins?? (Sorry I am having a book club moment left over from Joni fest HI Lieve!) This book finds humor in the depths of this abyss. Bob you hit the nail on the head on many times over for me here and I am not a catholic either, I don't think THAT it really matters. I am an Episcopalian by baptism and my number one son was baptized that way but Julian we did at a Catholic church for no apparent reason other than we were going to that church at the time. I go to many different churches because of my work and I find that Jesus is everywhere not necessarily exclusive to the Catholic Church. It seems that the bigger issues are in the same dioceses all the time mostly related to the roots. My theory is there is less humanity and more bureaucracy involved in the whole thing. I just met the Archbishop from Honduras who is a Cardinal and supposedly on the short list to follow this pope. He did not strike me as "the one" yet many of those around me seemed to look at him and think the exact opposite. I think the current pope has a lot of charisma and it seems to me he really wants to be a nice guy, but he is bound by the rules HE may not even control (and I am not saying I think anyone has their hands up his skirt) it may very well not be. I have A LOT of business dealings with the church and don't want to bite the hand that is feeding me, but..... I too am weak and sometimes am inclined to comment on things I may not totally understand. THE CHURCH is the one that has the issues not the people who are as blind deaf and dumb as anyone. I remember a few things mother always said about related topics. 1) Where ever you find 1 or 2 Episcopalians you will find a fifth. 2) The pope don't play the game so he don't make the rules. 3) A priest that is allowed to be married (to a person other than Jesus or the church or anything else.) is a happy priest therefore he don't be looking for love in all the wrong places. If the Church (you know which one I mean) melted all the gold icons and crap down and sold it off, they could feed and heal millions of children. If they brought all the high priced symbolism down and replace them with humble things and dropped all the bullshit about the human race (specifically the gays) they could get down to the comforting of sinners that we all are. I do have to say it is a sexy image of Eve taking the bite out of the apple (but I digress). Anyways somebody stop me please!! I hope the priest that was murdered (after all his trespasses) rests in peace. I hope the people that he abused find peace and the understanding of the world around them. And I hope the Church can eventually get it's collective caca together and stop all the madness. But you know what? MAYBE just maybe THERE NOT PART OF THE INNER CIRCLE and it turns out to be the Methodists or the Baptists! Shreeeeeeeeeeeeeek! Why oh why can't I be totally serious for just once? Back to my corner! Best Paz (Paz In Shades of the His Corner Smoldering) > Kakki writes: > > << I was exposed to anti-Catholic bigotry as a child and it amazed me then > and amazes me even more to see some of it displayed here on the list all these > years later >> > > Well then I probably should probably state a big MEA CULPA here, Kakki! But I > really think we may have different ideas of what anti-Catholic bigotry is. > > Although I detest bigotry in all its forms, I am comfortable badmouthing the > Catholic church because they hurt me when I was a vulnerable child. No, I > wasn't raped, but I did end up having to try my best to get by while living IN > TERROR of some of the things I was taught to be the Truth. And let's face it; > more than any other religion on the face of the earth, the Catholic church is > run > by a bureaucracy and bureaucracies are mostly full of crap. > > What's more, it drives me batty to see the church keep trying to lower the > cash amount of damages to the victims of priest rape here in the Boston area. > They keep claiming they don't have the money when the Catholic church is > probab > ly one of the world's richest entities. For a class action suit involving > scores of people they are trying to settle for something like $57 million. But > they > somehow don't have the money! They own billions in Boston area real estate. > And I'll bet there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of works of art > IN > STORAGE in the Vatican that would fetch much more than $57 million at > auction. But the church doesn't have the money. Yeah, right. > > I read an article some time in the last year that said that the church is > basically beginning to write off North America and concentrate their > development > (i.e., growth) in countries where there is more illiteracy because Catholicism > in developed countries has led to the "cafeteria-style" brand of American > Catholicism where people don't take what the church says as, well, gospel once > they have a little bit of education. The church isn't used to a lot of > questioning and that's exactly what they're getting from Catholic people who > don't like > the way they operate. (I could go on here for a week with example of crap > that has happened to friends, family, people I've heard of, etc., etc.) > > Individual faith is one thing, and I would generally never criticize someone > for religious belief. But criticism of the corrupt and majorly flawed > institution of Catholicism is something very different from anti-Catholic > bigotry in > my mind. Except for the Mormons, I can't think of another religion that is run > as such a bureaucracy with a home office (Vatican/SLC) and all. So to equate > criticism of the church with anti-Catholic bigotry is just off base, as far as > I am concerned. > > So in summary -- I love Catholics, it's the church I can't stand. > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:39:56 -0700 From: cul heath Subject: staring a hole Hey Wally :) I don't know if I would call it idiomatic exactly...more like exaggeration to indicate a level of intensity , but sure idiomatic is good...I know what you mean by that so it works for me. I think Mitchell is using the verb phrase "staring a hole in" to indicate that Coyote is so transfixed by some internal process or more likely simply sitting there so intensely hung over that he isn't even aware of what might be in his optical field... I know we used to things like that in Michigan to mean someone was "transfixed" ...and I think that is a way of setting up the later lines where he is brought back to the planet by the smell of her from the night before on his fingers but no sooner is he becoming conscious of the woman he with, then he is swept up straight guy "cruise-a-matic" brain making his eyeballs track the legs of a passing waitress...showing him to be in that special catagory of mitchell catches: somewhat sincere. On another note I spent the night last night putting slide show of photos of me using a striped blanket to create an Arabic feel to various poses I struck in a basement bedroom a few weeks back. I used Mitchell's rendition of "You've Changed" as a premise and sound track. The transitions from shot to shot are paced such that there is interesting interplay between the sound track visuals andthe literal pix that comprise the slide show that generate subtle secondary meanings to the lyrics. Its the first time I've thought to do something like that with Mitchell's music ...I think I will pursue it more. If youi want to check it out you can download the 5 minute (6 Meg)slideshow with the soundtrack at http://www.deeperwants.com/mitchell/youvechanged.exe later for the monkey cul From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: staring a hole? i've just realized that this line from coyote seems to lack a preposition. don't people always say "stare AT something"? does "staring a hole in his scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic? wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:48:03 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: staring a hole? OHHHHH! Is THAT what happened to them. I was sitting at the next table and saw the smoke.. Paz > Kerry > > P.S. I'm still having flashbacks of Bob Murphy staring a hole in Susan's > scrambled eggs at the fest! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:45:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: little ireland njc --- greenstudio@northcom.net wrote: > I wish I could say I'm surprised at the intensity of > feeling and opinion > regarding Catholicism and "organized religion" just > lately on the list, but > oddly enough I've been thinking about such matters > in a place where we > don't much discuss these matters and it was kinda > cool to hear y'all > contributing your voices to the ones in my head. And > Kakki the voice of > cautious reason, that was good too. > > I live all of a sudden (this was not what I imagined > - things fall so oddly > into place) in a sort of little Ireland in Ontario > in Canada, about four > hours north of the big smoke Toronto. Barely a > village. The church > bells measure my days. Once last winter I saw a tall > thin priest in a > black cassock making a house call at the big, white > house across the > highway. He was the only black thing in the > landscape, the only tailored > thing. > My father was born here, Irish-Indian Backwoods > catholic. It was his > romantic fortune to marry a fanatic backwood > Baptist. Scandalous. This > was the early fifties. You must live somewhere not far from Sudbury (?) My brother, who now lives in Alberta, has lived in Smooth Rock Falls, Espanola and Dryden. When I was a kid, from age two to twelve, I lived in Pembroke (about 100 miles north of Ottawa on the Ottawa River) which was, similarly, a "little Ireland." There was quite a bit of Catholic vs Protestant going on with some people. There was a lot of that "Orangeman" mentality. In fact, to this very day that goes on. When they were doing all that hospital "restructuring", there were so many non-Catholics upset that possibly it was the Catholic hospital that was going to "win" the hospital war and get control. Some of these people wrote really nasty letters - they were afraid the nuns were going to shove crucifixes in their faces and so on. I thought those days were gone, but apparently they're not. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:41:09 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] Kay and Maggie - you've said what I wanted to say but was prevented from chest constriction and loss of oxygen to the brain on the Catholic thread: > And this part of your answer also gives hope -- our cognitive abilities > allow us to "decide" to evolve further. And, to come full circle, isn't > that really the higher purpose of all the religions? To show us how to > evolve into something better? Exactly. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:52:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Magdalene Laundries - njc --- Michael Paz wrote: > Thanks all for the comments on this topic. Far be it > for me to get sucked > into a conversation about this kind of topic > but..... In a weak moment... > Has anyone read "Another Roadside Attraction" by Tom > Robbins?? Yes. > But you know what? MAYBE > just maybe THERE NOT PART OF THE INNER CIRCLE and it > turns out to be the > Methodists or the Baptists! Shreeeeeeeeeeeeeek! Why > oh why can't I be > totally serious for just once? > Back to my corner! Why would you want to be serious? It's way too depressing. Keep laughing, bro'! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:02:15 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Baltimore catechism question njc Vince wrote: > >maybe your congregation was run by a particularly good natured > order of Franciscans or other very loving people. I have lots of > friends there among the Franciscans..< I'm not sure (because I probably don't follow it all as closely as Vince does) but typically Catholic parishes and schools are run by the local archdiocese and individual orders of nuns. This all prompted me to look up one of the churches I attended to see their background. So I found the early indoctrination (without Baltimore Catechism) was from the Sisters of Notre Dame see here http://www.snd1.org/heritage.html and the later years (also without Baltimore Catechism) was from the Daughters of Mary and Joseph see here http://www.dmjca.org/page2.html (and note they are actually smiling and have good hair and are not wearing Burkas! ;-) The priest at my first church was a hreatly sought after attendee at all the old Hollywood parties (good marketing for the old collection plate, eh?) and the monsignor at the later church I recall always had the best stash of vintage Chivas Regal around. And with that I'm off to powder my horns and throw a couple of hot rollers on my magnificent red tail. LOL Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:04:50 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: warren zevon on vh1 lol & oh yes & the SCORCHING guitar riff bruce played & how after he said something like okay now lets do the real take...that was very cool that bruce showed up like that (on or near christmas?)...i agree with you on the songs...they sound amazing... rosalita: > me saw it. I had to laugh when he met Bruce and said "You really are you!!!! What a witty guy he is despite his illness. I love the songs on his new CD. I can't wait to get it. < ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:04:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Baltimore catechism question njc --- kakki wrote: And with that I'm off to powder my horns > and throw a couple of hot > rollers on my magnificent red tail. LOL > Kakki, you devil! :D ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:04:42 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: St. Kakki Subject: The Catholic Church Sorry to give a little Catholic Sunday school lesson here, but I was exposed to anti-Catholic bigotry as a child and it amazed me then and amazes me even more to see some of it displayed here on the list all these years later. Not saying at *all*, Mark that you have displayed this,but I have felt it in some of the other posts and sometimes one feels the need to set some of the record straight. Kakki Dear Kakki: I liked your little Sunday school lesson. Now, let me be like a Priestess and give a little sermon: Bigotry? How about big oak tree? I'd rather sit under a big oak tree here in dixieland and lift up my voice and sing with all creatures of our God and King, especially Joni Mitchell. If one had a scale and put all the trash the Catholic Church has done on one side and all the good God has done not only despite but also through the Catholic Church on the other, God's side would win easy. It all started off with Jesus calling Peter satan for a reason... the Church left to human designs is nothing short of evil, but God said He would then, and still does today, get His work done on earth using the means He created, the Church. Seeing fault in the Church is nothing new since is started with Jesus. It is all to remind us we are saved by grace even if we are sometimes brain damaged and can't have faith. So, to God be the glory for awesome Catholics like Mother Theresa, Pope JPII, and all those saints who fill the 4 volumes of Butler's Lives of the Saints.... and last but not least, to Him be the glory for you Kakki. Asking for only now, Priestess Dr. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:17:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: RC church - njc Hmmmm seems you could just insert American for Roman Catholic anywhere here and it would work just as well. Thanks Wally - this is beautifully stated. peace, Susan Wally Kairuz wrote: i am a member of nation, a people whose government has been usurped and misused. i will always fight the church hierarchy and i will always be a roman catholic. this pope, like many other popes before him, is a crook and a fascist. i will forever denounce his opinions and those of his partners in crime: the bishops that collaborated with the military in argentina during the 70's, the cardinals that aid and abet, the nuns and priests behind genocide and oppression, the opus dei, the perpetrators of so much hate --of which homophobia and misogyny are but the tip of the iceberg. but i will always be roman catholic. all those criminals won't succeed in making me an exile in my own family. they will go FIRST. wally Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:26:09 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: St. Kakki Dr. Laura, I quite agree with you! Unsaintly Kakki ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:32:12 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: FW: Joni on Rolling Stone's poll of top guitarists don't know why i got this message personally...can someone help qingcong? - -----Original Message----- From: QingCong@aol.com [mailto:QingCong@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 8:26 PM To: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Joni on Rolling Stone's poll of top guitarists >how do i get off the joni mitchell list?< how do i get off the joni mitchell list? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:40:07 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: JoniCento "Mushrooms" Muller writes: << Some of you may recall that among the presentations at "Wall to Wall" Joni in NYC this year was a "Cento" made up of all Joni lines... >> How odd. I have been keeping a document on my desktop called "Jumbled Joni" which I work on from time to time. Like this, it's made up of Joni lines, but mine -- in my humble opinion -- is much better, at least on paper. I had thought it might be the next JMDL craze, like Hell's Thesaurus Joni of a few months ago. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:33:52 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re Sorry Joni onlies Sorry about forgetting the njc you all. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:44:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: RC church - njc "Eggs of the Serpent" Guzzi writes: << Thanks Wally >> Well, there it is. My worst fear has just come true. --Bob NPIMH: "Is She Really Going Out With Him" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:56:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: nuns (njc) wow isnt this the truth Ann?! Anne wrote: Ever wonder why a nun traditionally dressed the way she did? Well, a burqua by any other name... I too grew up in a Catholic school which was heavily guided by the Irish Catholic although in a very Italian neighborhood in Chicago. It was overflowing with racism and mysogony, bigotry and fear. Yes I did hear both nuns and priests use the "N" word and other popular terms of the times. Thankfully I then went to a high school run by the Carmelite nuns and most eventually became ex nuns and frankly lesbian - imagine that! To this day I run into my high school counselor in the bars - and still I stand before her like a little girl. Not because of how we were treated at old Alvernia High School for girls, but because of Our Lady of the Angels Grammar school. Where we had BVM nuns - aka Blessed Virgin Mary order who we referred to lovingly as Black Veiled Monsters - and they were! In my opinion they were sadistic. And today I am a dedicated atheist - and damn proud of it! But yes Anne I can find goddliness in much of the world and in many people - god is love and is possible everywhere. Just not the bearded variety sitting upon a cloud. I have had this feeling since I was 6 years old - was it in me or was I just not buying what they were selling. Doesn't matter I have come full circle back to my original thought and so I think it works for me much more than the Catholic church ever could. Peace, love and understanding - now there is a foundation to build on rather than hate mistrust and judgement. Peace, Sister Mary Susan NP: Lucinda Williams - Right In Time I think (my opinion only, I realize) that the Catholic church teaches guilt instead of reverence and operates on greed instead of good. I grew up in one of the most active and prominent parishes in the Boston archdiocese. Thankfully, I was never physically touched, but, man, did they try to f*ck me up emotionally and spiritually. Nuns showed horribly graphic images of the holocaust, burned bodies piled up, the ovens, people being herded into trains like cattle. And then these nuns tried to blame US!!!! We were five year old girls. Five years old!!! If that's not perverse, I don't know what is. As for the Baltimore Catechism, there is one little statement that's worthwhile. It asks, "Where is God?" and replies "Everywhere." That's the only thing in church and Sunday School that ever made sense to me. Not that anyone cares, but I think there is a force that binds us, and even links us with nature. That's God to me. Not some bearded guy sitting in the clouds. Just my own belief. Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:05:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: nuns (njc) Synchro time again! I was reading "Underworld" by Don DeLillo tonight (on loan from a very nice lister) and there are a few papgraphs about a classroom full of Catholic children having to recite the responses to the Baltimore Catechism for a particularly evil nun in the early 1950s. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:12:13 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: I'm a desperate fan! Hi Monica, I've never heard of a store called "Kazaa". If you want the CDs, try www.amazon.com . If you want the LPs, go to www.ebay.com . If "Kazaa" is anything like "Napster", then I can't possibly help you. The visual work on her albums is as rich as her music and her words. To get the full effect you need the whole package. Now that you've absorbed "Hissing" and "Don Juan", you have an idea of the quality she will bring to your purchases. Lay your hands on the CD player and repeat this five times: "I have found the milk of the Madonna." "I am saved." Go forth and sin no more, my child. Lama >>I have been lookink for Joni's albums like crazy and have been quite unlucky. I've only found "Hissing of summer lawns", "Don Juan's reckless daughter" and that's about all. And I'm spending hours and hours on the net using Kazaa, but it's very hard.... I thought maybe some other of you fans of hers could help me in some way....>> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:49:07 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: nuns (njc) Susan Guzzi wrote: >wow isnt this the truth Ann?! > >Anne wrote: >Ever wonder why a nun traditionally dressed the way >she did? > > >I too grew up in a Catholic school Not because of how we were treated at old Alvernia High School for girls, > > Vince comments: every guy in my social group in high school dated girls from Alvernia because they put out and were liberal. Good Counsel girls expected to get married, Immaculata girls thought they were better than the rest of us, Notre Dame for Girls girls were republicans, and Madonna girls were, ah, second rate, but Alvernia girls _ they looked good, they were politically hip, they partied,, and they put out. > but because of Our Lady of the Angels Grammar school. > and that takes us to very somber territory, a story best told in another thread. To this day, at this moment, I get choked up when I think of Our Lady of the Angels,. In a theological epic I am working on right now, OLOTA gets prominent play in the section roughly subtitled "where the fuck was God." The answer is" Grieving and sickened by the trite theology that was tossed in that aftermath. It wasn't where was God - where the fuck was the human responsibility that allowed one fatal mistake after another to coalesce in tragedy and horror beyond what I can feel - I was 6 when it happened and I still see it in my mind. Susan, after December 1 1958, was there one child, catholic or protestant, left in Chicago who would ever listen to authority, church, religious, secular, again? To obey authority was to be killed. Life was only preserved by saying, as Michelle McBride says in her book, by saying "fuck this" and disobeying every rule and doing what one had to. 93 children, 3 nuns burned to death and it never had to be, That you were a survivor... if not of the actual event, of that school and the grief it bore... I have no words,. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:13:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: my take on nuns (njc) oh well, anyways... i'd STILL like to do the "how do you solve a problem like maria" number at jonifest someday with steve polifka, jimmy, bob murphy, les ross, chris and of course *I* in the role of the mother abbess. i will look pensive and firm yet *understanding*. and i'll cherish my exchange with sister margaretta: SISTER MARGARETTA (maybe les ross in his best soprano): "i'd like to say a word in her behalf." MOTHER ABBESS (me, rather majestically): "THEN SAY IT, SISTER MARGARETTA!" SISTER MARGARETTA: "maria... makes me... LAUGH!" (all the nuns break into restrained, bell-like laughter. that is where i look stern although i DO remember my younger years and try to conceal half a smile!) and i want michael paz as maria, running, his head uncovered, coming back from the hills. and don't ask "why paz???" because i'll accuse you all of heterophobia. wally, great in black (maybe some pearls? are abbesses allowed to wear pearls now and then?) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #424 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)