From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #423 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, August 26 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 423 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: sexism in the temptation stories- njc ["kakki" ] A Classic Case ["Paul Castle" ] Bob's remarks on the Catholic church [Aerchak@aol.com] staring a hole? ["Wally Kairuz" ] august 26!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Baltimore catechism question njc [vince ] New Tom Waits Album... due next spring NJC [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=] Fw: august 26!!!! njc [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= ] Re: VACATION (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Counting Crow's concert [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Re: sexism in the temptation stories- njc [notaro@stpt.usf.edu] Re: The Catholic Church [Roger Burns ] Re: Guitarists ["Larry D." ] Joni & Sports [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Baltimore catechism question njc ["kakki" ] Re: august 26!!!! njc [Susan Guzzi ] Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] ["Kay Ashley" ] RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) ["Maggie McNally" ] RE: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: njc baltimore catechism #43 NJC [fauchja@comcast.net] JoniCento [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: sexism in the temptation stories- now joni content ["ron" ] Re: Joni & Sports ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Jonifest 2003 audio/video njc [Les Irvin ] Amelia in a new book [Deb Messling ] I'm a desperate fan! [Monica Anastase ] Re: Jonifest 2003 audio/video njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] ["Kay Ashl] Re: staring a hole? [Catherine McKay ] Re: staring a hole? ["kerry" ] RE: Magdalene Laundries - njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: New Tom Waits Album & Blind Boys of Alabama NJC [=?iso-8859-1?Q?Emili] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:06:31 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: sexism in the temptation stories- njc Vince wrote: > But look carefully at almost every catechetical work, including > Baltimore, used through the 60s (it takes catechetics a while to catch > up with scholarship) and it is there implicit and explicit -and is still > seen in a number of places today in various places in the Church - > orthodox, roman catholic, protestantism, etc. We still have much work > to do. I took my first Cathecism class in 1958 and was not taught from the Baltimore catechism. I have the little book I was taught from around here somewhere and recall it was written for children and the tone was very spiritual and positive. I came away with the idea that Eve and Adam were equally complicit in their fall but the concept of sin was not what was emphasized. Rather what was overwhelmingly stressed were the concepts of love and forgiveness - from God to us and from us towards others. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:57:43 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: A Classic Case Found this in 'A Conversation with Martin Carthy', an interview by John McLaughlin from The Folk Life Quarterly back in 1979 see http://www.thedigitalfolklife.org/martincarthy.html talking about 'stardom' on the folk scene > John:...there's a chosen spiral up and out of the coffeehouses >and into the bigger halls each time a musician comes round the >circuit, until they get priced out of the small clubs. Joni Mitchell >is a classic case. So now she writes laments for the fact she >has swimming pools.. >Martin: And that sense of envy for the man who >"was singing real good for free." >John: Yes. "City of the fallen angels," and she should know, >if anybody does. >Martin: I like her music a lot, actually. >John: I'm in love with her! >Martin: Oh yes. But I know what you mean, exactly. >And playing at Art for Art's Sake isn't on, either. >John: Wilde says, "Who is Art, that he should have a sake?" (Laughter) >Martin: There was a little bit of that in England, not a lot, but some. >There used to be more. There used to be more Joni Mitchell style >music. Ralph McTell, for example. >John: I have one of his old albums on tape somewhere - >his "Song to a Seagull" is on that. It's lovely. best to all PaulC (currently rosinating!) www.rosinators.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:27:01 EDT From: Aerchak@aol.com Subject: Bob's remarks on the Catholic church Bob, I applaud your post on the Catholic church. I could not have said it better myself, so I won't. Recovering Catholic, Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:19:14 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: staring a hole? i've just realized that this line from coyote seems to lack a preposition. don't people always say "stare AT something"? does "staring a hole in his scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic? wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:26:19 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: august 26!!!! njc the BF won't be roused from its beauty sleep (the BF usually takes a 36-hour nap a day.) (days are DIFFERENT over there.) so i'll have to rush and tell you all that today is MARY PITASSI'S BIRTHDAY!!!!! please join the chorus and use the expletive liberally! HAPPY F*CKING BIRTHDAY, MARY THE SAGE, MARY THE BEAUTIFUL! love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:32:24 -0400 From: vince Subject: Baltimore catechism question njc kakki,. since you called me out by name on this anti-catholicism thing, I would like to know if you question that the Baltimore Catechism was the official catechism of the US Catholic Church for the major part of the 20th century? If it was not used in your local parish, you were lucky - maybe your congregation was run by a particularly good natured order of Franciscans or other very loving people. I have lots of friends there among the Franciscans.. Now in all of my posts, the only Roman Catholic theologian that I cited was John Dominic Crossan, he of the pontifical institute and a Roman catholic theologian who taught at DePaul for almost all of his professorial life, and Crossan I called a hero - call him, he'll vouch that I simply adore him and what he was written - did you look at the link I posted for him? that the one book that I mentioned, very negatively, was by John Knox, scottish reformer (noted non catholic), In fact, I mentioned the Scottish (protestant) Lords of the Congregation several times, very negatively. Their treatment of the Roman catholic mary Queen of Scots was disgusting and deplorable and I have seminary papers going back to 1973 to send to you on that subject if you would like to read them. I mentioned midrash, ancient Mesopotamian legends, King Arthur stories, the shared history of all western Christian churches (that time up to the reformation), the reformation churches up until the 20th century when some of them rejected old biases (as I praised Father Crossan for doing), the intentionally sexist mistranslation of the King James Version (a most Protestant thing), referred to sexism as being "endemic in almost all theology until the historical critical period (mid 1800s)", the eastern church (orthodoxy), and ended my last post by saying: >Protestant fundamentalism is pretty similar in its approach to sin and >sex and Eve and women so this calls out no one church, much could be >said of orthodoxy and many strands of Judaism as well as Islam (which >shares the Adam and Eve myths). Not particular to one church, present in >at least three different faiths in various expressions. > > > please tell me for my own edification where I said anything anti-Catholic or implied, as you suggested, that anyone is stating that the Roman church made up the Adam and Eve stories to bash women. Since my name was used in a post which makes accusations and my scholarly and academic honor and integrity are important to me, as well as my growth and learning and correction so that I may not repeat past mistakes, please advise where I singled out the Roman church. I want to grow and learn. To mention or quote the Baltimore catechism as one piece of the whole is to my mind not an attack upon Roman Catholcism, but maybe quoting it is an attack even though I have placed it as just one peice among so very many Christian and nonChristian sources. Please advise. If I misread your post with my name in it, please advise. Sorry to quote myself so much but I search for what you refer to and I being so blind and biased cannot find it so I ask for help. Edify me. Vince I also said in one of yesterday's posts, as inclusively and accurately as possible: "from the time of Luther - the Reformation- the Counter Reformation - that was picked up and continued by the (roman) Counter Reformation and by parts of the Protestant reformation, i.e., John Knox (Scottish and from him stems essentially English presbyterianism) and "....The Monstrous Reign of Women .... " (referring to Mary Q of S and her regent mother Mary de Guise, Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I, Catherine di Medici (power behind French throne), etc. - the King James Bible (James VI of Scotland, I of England, son of Mary Q of S and successor to Elizabeth I) is translated in an especially sexist way that is not supported by the original languages but was done to counter the 16th century and its situation where women were the powers in England-France-Scotland right through modern times in many theologies until the rise of the historical-critical method of the late 19th century is the idea that Eve bears a greater guilt and Adam was seduced - which was originally checked when the historical-critical school of Biblical studies identified that with ancient Mesopotamian stories and all that followed down to the fact that there are two creation stories in Genesis and neither one of them is historical in the slightest - and that allowed new interpretations that eliminate the sexism, i.e., the pivotal work of Barth, Bonhoeffer, Tillich, and many others in the 20th century which looking at the mythological meanings of those creation/temptation stories in a post WWI-postWWII age, has nothing to do with gender - which game rise to the new Biblical work by scholars and theologians such as Amy Jill Levine (my hero!), Elizabeth Bettenhausen, Mary Daly, Rosemary Reuther, etc. as well as John Dominic Crossan (my other hero!) and others. But look carefully at almost every catechetical work, including Baltimore, used through the 60s (it takes catechetics a while to catch up with scholarship) and it is there implicit and explicit -and is still seen in a number of places today in various places in the Church - orthodox, roman catholic, protestantism, etc. We still have much work to do." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:07:47 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: New Tom Waits Album... due next spring NJC Hi, folks! Excuse me for the bandwith (I guess many of you know this), but I can't help it forwarding this to you. Blue Valentine rereleased! Will I get to see it in Spain? Have a Wonderful time! Yours: Emiliano - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "SHOWDATES" >Subject: New Tom Waits Album Due Next Spring > > New Tom Waits Album Due Next Spring > > Place one drunken, marble-mouthed beatnik in a grimy black kettle (an > old pot will suffice if a kettle cannot be located). Allow to stew > for approximately two years. Let simmer for about the length it takes > to read this here Pitchfork news story, and in March 2004 you've got > a freshly boiled Tom Waits release substantial enough to feed a > junkyard gospel choir. Indeed, Epitaph-affiliated Anti- has slapped a > new Waits album on their tentative release schedule for next year. No > specifics (title or other particulars) are available at the present > time, but we at the 'Fork give you our solemn oath to keep our ears > peeled and our eyes to the soil. > > As previously reported, Waits is also among the artists appearing on > the forthcoming Blind Boys Of Alabama album, Go Tell It on the > Mountain, due September 16th via Realworld. The album is the first > Blind Boys holiday release and will feature Waits lending a hand to > the title track. > > In other news, Rhino is re-releasing a handful of Waits classics from > the '70s and early '80s with spiffy new liner notes and, reportedly, > bonus tracks from the vaults. Blue Valentine (1978) and Heartattack & > Vine (1980) are the first titles slated for expansion. Release dates > are yet to be confirmed, but as per usual, the best damn 24-hour > newswire on the block'll keep you updated. > > http://www.officialtomwaits.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:14:24 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Fw: august 26!!!! njc Happy Birthday, Mary! Are you here? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wally Kairuz" To: ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:26 PM Subject: august 26!!!! njc > the BF won't be roused from its beauty sleep (the BF usually takes a 36-hour > nap a day.) (days are DIFFERENT over there.) > > so i'll have to rush and tell you all that today is > > > MARY PITASSI'S BIRTHDAY!!!!! > > > please join the chorus and use the expletive liberally! > > HAPPY F*CKING BIRTHDAY, MARY THE SAGE, MARY THE BEAUTIFUL! > > love, > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:29:07 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: New Tom Waits Album... due next spring NJC Thanks a jillion for sharing this good news Emiliano! Waits is right up there with Joni for the most part, and may even pass her by as he's still out there writing brilliant stuff and following his own drummer and unlike Joni he's NEVER had a hit song or a moment of popularity...I'm currently playing through all my Tom collection at present, and he always pleases and challenges. Also excited about that Blind Boys release...they did a couple of Waits songs on their last CD, which I picked up & LOVED thanks to Ron & Laurent, so you can bet I'll be visiting my local independent shop on the 16th. And the re-releases are BIG BIG news to me too - and good news as well. After Hejira, Blue Valentines is my favorite record, and Heartattack & Vine is also a gem...I recall Murphy singing "On The Nickel" in his Jackie Mason voice when we were heading up to the waterfalls with Kenny & Maggie. I'll have to bookmark that site so I can keep up with the man. I was on the Raindogs list for awhile but it was just AWFUL, made me appreciate what we have here all the more. Thanks again, Bob NP: Tom & Bette, "I Never Talk To Strangers" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:31:32 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: VACATION (NJC) I'll be un.sub.bing in a few hours. This is the big vacation (or holiday as the Brits would say). Even though our 25th anniversary was in June, the celebration starts today for almost 2 weeks!!! If I get access to a computer, I'll check in with you guys. So happy birthday's to Mary, and anyone else who has one coming up. If I see the Pope, I'll make sure I give him your emails :~) I'll miss you guys, xoxo Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:33:34 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: The Catholic Church Sorry to give a little Catholic Sunday school lesson here, but I was exposed to anti-Catholic bigotry as a child and it amazed me then and amazes me even more to see some of it displayed here on the list all these years later. Not saying at *all*, Mark that you have displayed this,but I have felt it in some of the other posts and sometimes one feels the need to set some of the record straight. Kakki - ------------------------- Kakki, I believe the entire world saw a total genocide on all of the native people by the Catholic church, including California how they lied to all of those people that the bill of rights failed. In California Practically every town their is taken from some Catholic mission. They have done a lot of very sick and evil to every indigenous person on earth "If you don't believe like we do you must be a heathen or savage, but not to worry we'll change you to be just like us"! They were tied to the governments of World domination. I speak as one of those indigenous people. Sorry to be harsh about it but I as a human being cannot condone such evil. "After the church got through (the catholic church) they traded their beads for bottles smashed on railway avenues" Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: nuns (njc) > Ever wonder why a nun traditionally dressed the way she did? Well, a burqua by any other name... I think (my opinion only, I realize) that the Catholic church teaches guilt instead of reverence and operates on greed instead of good. I grew up in one of the most active and prominent parishes in the Boston archdiocese. Thankfully, I was never physically touched, but, man, did they try to f*ck me up emotionally and spiritually. Nuns showed horribly graphic images of the holocaust, burned bodies piled up, the ovens, people being herded into trains like cattle. And then these nuns tried to blame US!!!! We were five year old girls. Five years old!!! If that's not perverse, I don't know what is. As for original sin - I freed myself from all that bullsh*t one Sunday when I stood up in plain view of everyone during a sermon on original sin and how we were all doomed to burn in hell. I marched out of that church and never went back. And I never will. As for the Baltimore Catechism, there is one little statement that's worthwhile. It asks, "Where is God?" and replies "Everywhere." That's the only thing in church and Sunday School that ever made sense to me. Not that anyone cares, but I think there is a force that binds us, and even links us with nature. That's God to me. Not some bearded guy sitting in the clouds. Just my own belief. lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:38:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: VACATION (NJC) bye bye, jimmy!!!!! you and ed (ed is going, right? :-)) have a great time. i love you, wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:55:16 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: VACATION (NJC) In a message dated 8/26/03 8:33:08 AM, FMYFL@aol.com writes: << If I see the Pope, I'll make sure I give him your emails :~) >> Yikes, Jimmy! That'll make him shit in the woods . . . Have a wonderful anniversary celebration! My best to Ed. Europeans are much less uptight about nudity, so Ed should feel at home there. XO, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: Counting Crow's concert They will be playing here in a few weeks at USF. Just announced that Diana Ross' daughter was to be opening for them. Jerry Quoting vince : > I can't get the actual article since the archives will not let me but in > > the August 5th Kalamazoo Gazette, the concert review of their appearance > > in Grand Rapids' Van Andel Arena, their version of BYT was praised and > Joni was mentioned by name. > > It said their version of BYT was "peppy" (in a good way) and it wasn't > til they did it that they opened up and started playing good. > > Vince > > (I can't search the GR Press either that far back - the search feature > only allows a 14 day search - maybe if I read my papers faster I would > have had this info sooner...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:39:05 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: sexism in the temptation stories- njc I started Catholic school in 1955 and we had to memorize the Baltimore catechism, word for word. Not only do I remember being taught that it was Eve's fault for original sin, but that the pain of childbirth was hers and every woman's reminder of it. Jerry Quoting kakki : > Vince wrote: > > > But look carefully at almost every catechetical work, including > > Baltimore, used through the 60s (it takes catechetics a while to > catch > > up with scholarship) and it is there implicit and explicit -and is > still > > seen in a number of places today in various places in the Church - > > orthodox, roman catholic, protestantism, etc. We still have much > work > > to do. > > I took my first Cathecism class in 1958 and was not taught from the > Baltimore catechism. I have the little book I was taught from around > here > somewhere and recall it was written for children and the tone was very > spiritual and positive. I came away with the idea that Eve and Adam > were > equally complicit in their fall but the concept of sin was not what was > emphasized. Rather what was overwhelmingly stressed were the concepts > of > love and forgiveness - from God to us and from us towards others. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:59:31 +0000 From: Roger Burns Subject: Re: The Catholic Church I know I'm new here, but could this thread be moved to NJC? Thanks for your consideration. - Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:16:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Larry D." Subject: Re: Guitarists Sister Rosetta Tharpe. - ---------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:23:17 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Joni on Rolling Stone's poll of top guitarists Reuters reports that Joni Mitchell came in at #72 on Rolling Stone's list of the 100 top guitarists of all time. Jimi Hendrix is number 1. The only other woman to make the list is Joan Jett, at #87. Not sure from the Reuters article if this is a reader's poll or a creation of the Rollling Stone editors. I can think of a couple of other women who might deserve to make such a list. Didn't someone on the list recently mention Ellen McIlwaine? What about Rory Block? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:23:18 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Joni & Sports (Thanks to Hell for the offlist inspiration for this one): Joni's writing covers a gamut of subjects, but one topic which she barely addresses, which is a tremendous part of our culture, is sports. I can't think of any reference to Baseball/Football/Basketball/Soccer in her songs, indeed the only sports references that Hell came up with are: 1. The Hockey mention in Raised On Robbery; 2. Richard got married to a figure skater 3. The very obscure "golfer's tee" mention in the unsung portion of "Paprika Plains". Now each of these references is sorta on the negative side - the jokers glued to that damn hockey game, Richard's figure skater mentioned in an eye-rolling way, and the Golfer's tee used as a comparison to a nuclear mushroom cloud! Joni is obviously surrounded by sports, living in LA where many celebrities are seen at Lakers games and etc. I wonder if she casts a negative eye on sports/competition in general? Maybe it comes from her suffering from polio and not being able to compete athletically at that point in her life? "Let's see you run We'll be betting by the starting gun Shall we shower you with flowers Or shall we shun ya When your race is run?" Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Bad Liver & A Broken Heart" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:32:28 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Baltimore catechism question njc Sorry to have said a word - jeez - carry on. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:51:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: august 26!!!! njc WOOO HOOO MARY! Happy Happy Day TO YOU! Growing older - NOT! - Getting better - YES! All the best to you ... take time to enjoy the day and celebrate sweetie! Peace, Susan Wally Kairuz wrote: the BF won't be roused from its beauty sleep (the BF usually takes a 36-hour nap a day.) (days are DIFFERENT over there.) so i'll have to rush and tell you all that today is MARY PITASSI'S BIRTHDAY!!!!! please join the chorus and use the expletive liberally! HAPPY F*CKING BIRTHDAY, MARY THE SAGE, MARY THE BEAUTIFUL! love, wally Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:30:36 -0400 From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] Kakki wrote: I just have a problem when misinformation as to the *faith* itself perpetuates. It seemed there was a thought that somehow Catholics had invented the Adam and Eve story as part of some ongoing evil conspiracy to keep women down. Catholics did not write the Old Testament of the bible and weren't even in existence until several thousands years later. As for interpretations of that story, it is interesting that Bob, Lama and myself have all been told a different meaning for it. Kakki ~~~~~~~~~~~ This whole thread, starting with the Magdalene Laundries discussion has me thinking (uh oh)... The discussion of the Adam and Eve myth within our familiar judeo-christian framework has been very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks in particular to Vince the Rev for all his info, and to Murph for his big nose. ;-) Certainly the Catholics did not invent this story; I suspect that the myth is an extremely old, archetypal story that predates the entire judeo-christian tradition. The point/observation that many have made, particularly Mark, is that for the most part, women get blamed. That is a universal theme, and you can see evidence of it in all world cultures. Particularly when you consider the selective abortions that occur in China even today; and when you consider that old chestnut, the favorite of many ancient cultures: leaving the female babies out in the elements to die. There is an extremely ancient psychological "wound" that the human race seems to carry, and our religious myths and stories really only serve to explain it, I think. Just as other ancient myths sought to explain thunderstorms and earthquakes, phenomena which could not be explained except as actions of the gods. Think back 200,000 years, or even further back, to the dawn of humanity; the ability of female hominids/pre-modern humans to give birth must have frightened and mystified the males; as the cognitive abilities of our ancestors increased, there would be a need to explain this most powerful and most mysterious of phenomena. Perhaps the roots of sexism lie here; the need of the male to compensate through physical power/control, since they did not possess the power of creation, at least not in the very obvious way that females did. Obviously evolution plays a part in determining this role -- most males are larger and stronger -- but the uniqueness of our cognitive abilities at some point became a factor in our evolution. I'm just thinking out loud here, I don't have any answers... anyone have any other thoughts?... Kay _____________________________________________________________ The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:05:53 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) Hey Kay - I have many thoughts, and have followed this thread as it has woven its way from Magdalene Sister/Laundries/Asylums through Catholicism and the bad things that come out of some organized religions to Adam and Eve and blame (or not to blame). My background is that of a daughter of a Unitarian-Universalist minister who was himself raised Roman Catholic, mixed with having a mother who could not embrace her own Jewish heritage despite having grown up with a household of aunts and uncles who paid a big price in fleeing oppression in Eastern Europe to come to America. I went on to study cultural anthropology in undergraduate school. These experiences have made me pretty darn respectful of the myriad belief systems that are out there, and pretty darn DISrespectful of the hypocrisy that I see in so many organized religions. As I have said so many times, if Jesus were around today he would be shocked and disgusted with many of the acts that are committed in his name. Ditto Mohammed. Here's my take on the roots of sexism. I think that much of the repression to which you refer, Kay, actually has its roots in the very base instinct to pursue maximum opportunity to reproduce. This is seen in wildlife, and in human patterns of behavior as well. Men cannot reproduce, they can only get women to do the reproducing for them. But, because they are not the ones carrying the child, they can actually have much greater success in reproducing than can the woman. Men have zillions of chances to reproduce when you count how many seeds they have, but woman only have so many eggs (even Guzzi with her golden eggs). So, controlling women is the best route to having maximum contribution to the next generation's gene pool, and for parents, having sons is the best way to ensure that THEIR genes get passed on, too. Now, before anyone starts slinging the dinner plates at me, I'm not suggesting that we cannot overcome this, that these *urges* are something that we must give in to, or anything like that. And certainly, anyone who knows me knows that I am a feminist and strong believer in equality and justice. But, if we remember that we were animals first, and that our cultural patterns evolved out of our instinctive behavior, it becomes a little bit easier to understand the roots of our behaviors. What I am saying is that the roots of sexism do not lie in fear or compensation but in the instinctive drive to contribute to the next generation's gene pool. I'm probably doing a really crappy job of explaining myself here...what we need is a bottle of wine and a spot on the front porch at Jonifest to *really* get into this (and I want Vince to join us on the porch). Best, Maggie (Boston/Cambridge) -----Original Message----- From: Kay Ashley [mailto:kay.ashley@willis.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:31 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] Kakki wrote: I just have a problem when misinformation as to the *faith* itself perpetuates. It seemed there was a thought that somehow Catholics had invented the Adam and Eve story as part of some ongoing evil conspiracy to keep women down. Catholics did not write the Old Testament of the bible and weren't even in existence until several thousands years later. As for interpretations of that story, it is interesting that Bob, Lama and myself have all been told a different meaning for it. Kakki ~~~~~~~~~~~ This whole thread, starting with the Magdalene Laundries discussion has me thinking (uh oh)... The discussion of the Adam and Eve myth within our familiar judeo-christian framework has been very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks in particular to Vince the Rev for all his info, and to Murph for his big nose. ;-) Certainly the Catholics did not invent this story; I suspect that the myth is an extremely old, archetypal story that predates the entire judeo-christian tradition. The point/observation that many have made, particularly Mark, is that for the most part, women get blamed. That is a universal theme, and you can see evidence of it in all world cultures. Particularly when you consider the selective abortions that occur in China even today; and when you consider that old chestnut, the favorite of many ancient cultures: leaving the female babies out in the elements to die. There is an extremely ancient psychological "wound" that the human race seems to carry, and our religious myths and stories really only serve to explain it, I think. Just as other ancient myths sought to explain thunderstorms and earthquakes, phenomena which could not be explained except as actions of the gods. Think back 200,000 years, or even further back, to the dawn of humanity; the ability of female hominids/pre-modern humans to give birth must have frightened and mystified the males; as the cognitive abilities of our ancestors increased, there would be a need to explain this most powerful and most mysterious of phenomena. Perhaps the roots of sexism lie here; the need of the male to compensate through physical power/control, since they did not possess the power of creation, at least not in the very obvious way that females did. Obviously evolution plays a part in determining this role -- most males are larger and stronger -- but the uniqueness of our cognitive abilities at some point became a factor in our evolution. I'm just thinking out loud here, I don't have any answers... anyone have any other thoughts?... Kay _____________________________________________________________ The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:28:17 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc lol!! Not often that someone one-ups Smurph on my laugh-out-loudometer! -----Original Message----- From: vince [mailto:revrvl@chartermi.net] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:41 PM To: Murphycopy@aol.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: more from the Baltimore catechism very njc No wonder the nuns beat you. Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Vince asks: > ><< 47. Q. What is the sin called which we inherit from our first > parents? >> > >Noses that are prone to become bulbous with age? > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:29:17 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: Magdalene Laundries - njc This sounds like the church I was raised in...hey, Catherine, just come on over to Unitarian-Universalism, New England style! -----Original Message----- From: Mark or Travis [mailto:mark.travis@gte.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:18 AM To: Catherine McKay; Murphycopy@aol.com; kakkib@vzavenue.net; Bobsart48@aol.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Magdalene Laundries - njc > Personally, I love cafeterias. There's so much choice. > Let's open a new church called the Holy Cafeteria and > see how many people show up - we serve up religion > like you likes it! > Isn't this called 'Unity'? ;-) Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:33:47 +0000 From: fauchja@comcast.net Subject: Re: njc baltimore catechism #43 NJC The Baltimore Cathechism. I can see it now - Cardinal Cal the Pius, Monsignor Brooks, and Pope Earl the Ist - -- GUITAR GUY EXTRAORDINAIRE > what did the Romans teach? > > Go to the source: the Baltimore Catechism > http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Catechism/4/bk4ls5.html#RTFToC6 > > The official catechism taught that Eve sinned and then induced Adam to > sin, lead Adam to sin - it was Eve inducing Adam to sin, not a joint, in > concert action of Adam and Eve, but something Eve induced Adam to do. > And that is the basis for question of how - sex, woman as temptress to > cause men to stray. (Emphasis added to the below reprint of the > Baltimore catechism #43. > > > 43. Q. Did Adam and Eve remain faithful to God? > > A. Adam and Eve did not remain faithful to God, but broke His > commandment by eating the forbidden fruit. > > As it is told in the Bible (Gen. 3), Eve went to the forbidden tree and > was standing looking at it, when the devil came in the form of a serpent > and, tempting, told her to take some of the fruit and eat. It does not > appear that she went and tasted the fruit of all the other trees and > finally came to this one, but rather that she went directly to the > forbidden tree first. Do we not sometimes imitate Eve's conduct? As soon > as we know a certain thing is forbidden we are more strongly tempted to > try it. > > See, then, what caused Eve's sin. She went into the dangerous occasion, > and was admiring the forbidden fruit when the tempter came. She listened > to him, yielded to his wicked suggestions, and sinned. So will it be > with us if through curiosity we desire to see or hear things forbidden; > for once in the danger the devil will soon be on hand to tempt us-not > visibly indeed, for that would alarm us and defeat his purpose, but > invisibly, like our guardian angels; for the devil is a fallen angel who > still possesses all the characteristics of an angel except goodness. But > this is not all. Eve not only took and ate the fruit herself, but > induced Adam to do likewise. Most sinners imitate Eve in that respect. > Not satisfied with offending God themselves, they lead others into sin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:13:48 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: JoniCento Some of you may recall that among the presentations at "Wall to Wall" Joni in NYC this year was a "Cento" made up of all Joni lines... I mentioned it a week or so ago referring to the Sugarpants performance as well. Well, I just discovered that this Cento is posted on the web, so that those of you who might be interested can see what was said. Keep in mind that while the lyrics were being recited, a local punkish-type trio band was playing "Jungle Line"... http://www.unpleasanteventschedule.com/JoniCento.htm Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Fawn" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:08:22 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: sexism in the temptation stories- now joni content hi >>>>>>vince wrote >>>>>>Boys may sow their wild oats, but girls are bad and the bad influence/corrupting girls must be put away. well, i have heard a couple of different teachings on this, within the same church. seems to me the only real sexism evident in the story is that of adam. closely followed on that is the blaming of god for our own actions.. adam blamed first the woman, - the *woman* - then god - that *you* gave me.......... now the women in the magdalene laundries get blamed for being "temptresses" when the bible clearly states that we are tempted by being led astray of our *own* lusts............ and also people blame god for our actions. bad experiences with churches, "christians" etc lead to rejection / condemnation of god instead of the people who are responsible. and one of the reason why i love the magdalene laundries is quite simply because joni nailed it right on. she blames the people, not god. These bloodless brides of Jesus If they had just once glimpsed their groom Then they'd know and they'd drop the stones Concealed behind their rosaries They wilt the grass they walk upon They leech the light out of a room They'd like to drive us down the drain At the Magdalene laundries and of course, a special thanks is due to Les Ross for bringing something so fresh and gentle and beautiful to the song. people talk about hearing a pin drop - man, i dont think anyone would have heard an anvil drop in that hall during that set - all attention was fully focussed.............. ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:28:01 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: joni mentions and pic in uncut magazine hi not sure if anyone mentioned this yet - the july issue of uncut has a feature article on neil young. theres mention of her in the main story, as well as a pic of him with joni, and a sidebar discussing him and jonis relationship. they say that circle game was written for neil, in response to sugar mountain, which ive never heard before - well not the songg - ive heard both songs - i just never heard that circle game was written for neil :-) they also mention that neil wrote "sweet joni" for her, "only love can break your heart" is about her & graham nash, and mention that there has been speculation that "stupid girl" was written for her as well. ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:31:52 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Joni & Sports - ----- Original Message ----- From: > > Joni's writing covers a gamut of subjects, but one topic which > she barely addresses, which is a tremendous part of our culture, > is sports. > > I can't think of any reference to Baseball/Football/Basketball/Soccer > in her songs, That's true isn't it? There are a few references to skating, sailing and running . There are lots of odes to everyone's favorite sport: GOAT DANCING. Is this unusual do you think? I'm trying to think of sports references in song and besides the famous few there aren't that many sports based songs, are there? I don't suppose "Yankee Yachts and lobster pots" qualifies... :>) How about if it was Yankee bats and lobster pots, but you'd have to use a Red Sox fan's accent to make the rhyme. Had a little earthquake here in NJ today, but I think maybe it was because the Boss is coming back on Thursday and the Big Man just rumbled across the Jersey state line. Patty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:35:15 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Jonifest 2003 audio/video njc Joniphiles - Reminder and disclaimer! Jonifest 2003 can be relived on VHS tape (NTSC format) and audio CD - and now even on DVD! The "general store" page has been updated to reflect this - - go to http://www.jonifest.com/store.cfm for more details. Last year we distributed the audio CDs for B&P (blanks and postage) and/or trade. This year they are up on the store page for a price. It's certainly not our intent to "sell" anyone's performances this year - everyone is free to b&p/trade for the CDs as always. If, however, you want to make a contribution towards the scholarship fund using the audio CDs as your vehicle... then go for it! The audio will be available sometime in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for your patience! Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:58:34 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Amelia in a new book The lyrics to Amelia, among other poems, are featured in a new book, Flight: A Celebration of 100 Years in Art and Literature. http://tinyurl.com/la8c - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:13:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Monica Anastase Subject: I'm a desperate fan! I have been lookink for Joni's albums like crazy and have been quite unlucky. I've only found "Hissing of summer lawns", "Don Juan's reckless daughter" and that's about all. And I'm spending hours and hours on the net using Kazaa, but it's very hard.... I thought maybe some other of you fans of hers could help me in some way.... Please help meeeeeeeee!! Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:17:00 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonifest 2003 audio/video njc In a message dated 8/26/2003 5:36:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ljirvin@jmdl.com writes: This year they are up on the store page for a price. And a very fair price, I would add...take it from someone who does lots of media copying. Does this mean I'm off the hook this year for tree-ing up the CD's? Yippee!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:21:34 -0400 From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: RE: Adam, Eve, etc. (NJC) [Checked by NAI at US SMTP Gateway] Maggie wrote: Here's my take on the roots of sexism. I think that much of the repression to which you refer, Kay, actually has its roots in the very base instinct to pursue maximum opportunity to reproduce. This is seen in wildlife, and in human patterns of behavior as well. Men cannot reproduce, they can only get women to do the reproducing for them. But, because they are not the ones carrying the child, they can actually have much greater success in reproducing than can the woman. Men have zillions of chances to reproduce when you count how many seeds they have, but woman only have so many eggs (even Guzzi with her golden eggs). So, controlling women is the best route to having maximum contribution to the next generation's gene pool, and for parents, having sons is the best way to ensure that THEIR genes get passed on, too. Maggie, that is really fascinating. Your explanation points to a real answer (as opposed to my aimless speculation) as to how the animal instincts we all have form our psychological archetypes. Maggie wrote: Now, before anyone starts slinging the dinner plates at me, I'm not suggesting that we cannot overcome this, that these *urges* are something that we must give in to, or anything like that. And certainly, anyone who knows me knows that I am a feminist and strong believer in equality and justice. But, if we remember that we were animals first, and that our cultural patterns evolved out of our instinctive behavior, it becomes a little bit easier to understand the roots of our behaviors. What I am saying is that the roots of sexism do not lie in fear or compensation but in the instinctive drive to contribute to the next generation's gene pool. And this part of your answer also gives hope -- our cognitive abilities allow us to "decide" to evolve further. And, to come full circle, isn't that really the higher purpose of all the religions? To show us how to evolve into something better? Boy, we humans are a pretty interesting bunch, aren't we? ;-) I was watching a bit of "The Life of Birds" on PBS last night -- now, if we could only convince our men to incubate all the eggs like the Argentinian ostrich. ;-) Kay _____________________________________________________________ The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of its content to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:55:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: staring a hole? --- Wally Kairuz wrote: > i've just realized that this line from coyote seems > to lack a preposition. > don't people always say "stare AT something"? does > "staring a hole in his > scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic? > wally It's because he's staring so hard at the scrambled eggs, that he's making a hole in them (burning with his eyes). If there was a hole in them already, he might stare at IT, but he's not. So there. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:59:56 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: staring a hole? Wally, In this phrase, AT isn't needed because he isn't staring AT the hole in the eggs. She's using this phrase to say that he's practically "making" a hole in the eggs by staring so hard. It's not a common idiomatic phrase, but we know what she means by it. (Staring doesn't always go with "at." It's also used with "into," i.e. "He's staring into the distance." or "She's staring into a microscope.") I'm not sure if this answers your question. I was trying to think of a phrase that would be similar, but couldn't. Just Joni being creative again? Kerry P.S. I'm still having flashbacks of Bob Murphy staring a hole in Susan's scrambled eggs at the fest! - ----- Original Message ----- From: Wally Kairuz To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 7:19 AM Subject: staring a hole? > i've just realized that this line from coyote seems to lack a preposition. > don't people always say "stare AT something"? does "staring a hole in his > scrambled eggs" sound idiomatic? > wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:51:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Magdalene Laundries - njc --- Maggie McNally wrote: > This sounds like the church I was raised in...hey, > Catherine, just come on over to > Unitarian-Universalism, New England style! > As long as I don't have to actually GO to a church! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:56:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Emiliano_Pati=F1o?= Subject: Re: New Tom Waits Album & Blind Boys of Alabama NJC Hi! Anyone has a clue about that show? Blind Boys Of Alabama... weren't in "O Brother were are thou?" (I must confess I don't like no Coen brs. film, although I keep trying on their tv passes) I guess that Go Tell It In The Mountain (I love that godspell, any remarkable version?) is a "must hear", for sure! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron" To: "Emiliano Patiqo" Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: Re: New Tom Waits Album... due next spring NJC > hi > > > >>>>>emiliano wrote > > > As previously reported, Waits is also among the artists appearing on the > forthcoming Blind Boys Of Alabama album, Go Tell It on the Mountain, due > September 16th via Realworld. The album is the first Blind Boys holiday > release and will feature Waits lending a hand to the title track. > > >>>>>bob responded > >> Also excited about that Blind Boys release...they did a couple of Waits > songs on their last CD, which I picked up & LOVED thanks to Ron & Laurent, > so you can bet I'll be visiting my local independent shop on the 16th. > > > and i give a great big ME TOO - tom waits and the blind boys - now theres a > wonderful thought - i reackon theyll blend in perfectly!!! > > i was watching tv last night - and there was a blind boys track being used > as a theme song for a tv show - what a great surprise!!! typical me - cant > remember the show - but the music runs thru my head even now. > > and anyone not familiar with them really should chek them - they really are > amazing........... > > ron ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #423 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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