From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #414 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, August 22 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 414 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Inside Story Of Joni Mitchell [Michael Paz ] Re: chord changes [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: chord changes [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: That "institution" (njc) [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: owning your favorite chords/language njc [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: The Pizza Fund (njc) & after JoniFest happenings [PassScribe@aol.com] RE: fate (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: owning your favorite chords/language njc [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #413 [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Today in History: August 22 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: August 22 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: joni/king/bach/ravel ["StephenToogood" ] Re: The Magdalene Sisters ["kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:19:00 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: The Inside Story Of Joni Mitchell > Amazon says that this book (another one by Stacy Luftig) is coming > out this month... > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0825672856/qid=1061482923/sr=1-6 > /ref=sr_1_6/104-9140060-4554367?v=glance&s=books > > Maybe it's going to tell us who all of these songs are about! ;~) > > Bob > > NP: Ralph Towner/Gary Burton, "Some Other Time" > DID YOU SEE THIS???? Look at all the 80's shit! OMG http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0825639077/ref=pd_sbs_b_5/104- 6865042-4487963?v=glance&s=books Paz Artist PA Track Album/Source Time Options Joni Mitchell Cool Water Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:26 Joni Mitchell Night Ride Home Night Ride Home 3:21 Joni Mitchell Come in from the Cold Night Ride Home 7:31 Joni Mitchell The Beat of Black Wings Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:25 Joni Mitchell My Secret Place Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:03 Joni Mitchell Dancin' Clown Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 3:53 Joni Mitchell You Dream Flat Tires Wild Things Run Fast 2:53 Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi Ladies of the Canyon 2:15 Joni Mitchell Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody Wild Things Run Fast 5:20 Joni Mitchell Wild Things Run Fast Wild Things Run Fast 2:16 To get th ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:45:57 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: The Inside Story Of Joni Mitchell I'm sure you all know to avoid this particular useless piece of crap, as Neil Young would say: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1860743110/qid=1061523634/sr=1 - -2/ref=sr_1_2/002-2791500-7829662?v=glance&s=books I'm addicted to rock & roll bioographies, but there are few good ones. However, none rises to the depths of Mr. HInton's cobbling together of news stories in an act of near plagiarism from mostly unreliable sources. Yuck! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > Michael Paz > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 1:19 AM > To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com; Joni Digest > Subject: Re: The Inside Story Of Joni Mitchell > > > > Amazon says that this book (another one by Stacy Luftig) is coming > > out this month... > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0825672856/qid=10614 > 82923/sr=1-6 > > /ref=sr_1_6/104-9140060-4554367?v=glance&s=books > > > > Maybe it's going to tell us who all of these songs are about! ;~) > > > > Bob > > > > NP: Ralph Towner/Gary Burton, "Some Other Time" > > > > > DID YOU SEE THIS???? Look at all the 80's shit! OMG > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0825639077/ref=pd_sb s_b_5/104- 6865042-4487963?v=glance&s=books Paz Artist PA Track Album/Source Time Options Joni Mitchell Cool Water Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:26 Joni Mitchell Night Ride Home Night Ride Home 3:21 Joni Mitchell Come in from the Cold Night Ride Home 7:31 Joni Mitchell The Beat of Black Wings Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:25 Joni Mitchell My Secret Place Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 5:03 Joni Mitchell Dancin' Clown Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm 3:53 Joni Mitchell You Dream Flat Tires Wild Things Run Fast 2:53 Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi Ladies of the Canyon 2:15 Joni Mitchell Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody Wild Things Run Fast 5:20 Joni Mitchell Wild Things Run Fast Wild Things Run Fast 2:16 To get th ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:46:44 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Sisters Mark, I think you are so on target with your comments on "original" sin. And your quote from "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow" perfectly encapsulates the issue. The concept of "original" sin has damned women for the entire Christian era. The most recent and heinous example of this unfortunate double standard was exhibited by our President, William Jefferson Clinton who dishonored every woman who supported or donated to his campaign when he wagged his finger, "I did not have relations with that... woman...Miss Lewinsky." That...Eve. People might argue that his presidency offered many good opportunities for women but his personal convictions on the issue became crystal clear at that exact moment. It made me wretch. I didn't think I'd ever have the opportunity to let that bubble up, thanks for giving me a venue. As far as what allows something like the Magdalene Laundries to propagate, the 20th century had so much social unrest and humanitarian disasters due to economic and idealogical perceptions (Germany in the 1930s, the US sending its sons and daughters to slaughter in Vietnam, through Kosovo to Liberia and so many, many more) and the inability of some nations to separate Church from State (in this case: Ireland) which is the single most unalienable right the US can still strive to maintain (the myth of freedom of press notwithstanding). I'm pretty inarticulate when it comes to politics (I'll defer to Kakki!), but sometimes stuff does get to me and hopefully I remember enough to use my vote effectively. CC "Breathtaking ignorance adding insult to injury." -- JM >From: "Mark or Travis" >To: ,"c Karma" >Subject: Re: The Magdalene Sisters Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:59:39 -0700 > >c> > > Has anyone else seen this film or the documentary on whicih it >claims > > to be based? > > > > CC > >I saw it last weekend with my friend Melanie. A very powerful film. >Fine performances from all of the actors and very well-done all the >way around. One of the American televsion news magazine programs also >did a piece on the laundries that I saw part of recently. It featured >interviews with some of the women who had been incarcerated. They >filmed a couple of them at the actual site of the laundry they had >been imprisoned in. One of them wouldn't go any further than the >front gate. She didn't want to get any closer. > >It's hard for me to comprehend the whole system and way of thinking >that produced these hell-holes. There is so much that is screwed up >about it and where do you lay the blame for it? With the Catholic >Church? The Irish government? The families of these poor unfortunate >women? The local church officials? Melanie has lived in Ireland and >she says it's all of the above and more. One thing that struck me was >that, like most of recorded history, it was the women who were >victimized; the women who were accused; the women who were sullied >and had to be 'cleansed'. It seems to me that when a woman gets >pregnant or is raped or is considered sexually provocative that there >is a man or men involved in these particular 'sins' as well. Where >were the work houses for the men who conceived those children or >committed the rape or lusted after some poor girl who had the bad >fortune to be born with physical attributes that made her sexually >desirable? > >But then the church is a patriarchy and part of the religion is >founded on the principle of 'original sin' as committed by Eve in the >Garden. And women have been paying for it ever since. That doesn't >make it reasonable. That doesn't make it right. > >'Wash my guilt of Eden >Wash and balance me' > >Mark E. in Seattle > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:46:50 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: chord changes In a message dated 8/21/03 6:15:25 AM, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << I don't know if you'd class this as a "chord change" - probably not, in fact. But one of the reasons Two Grey Rooms is one of my favourite songs, is the harmonies and melody when she sings "with a view...." There's something really haunting about that one line, that seems to convey the whole emotion of the song with just those three words. She definitely IS SIQUOMB! Hell >> Hell, I'll have to listen to "Two Grey Rooms" when I get a chance and check it out. I'll get back to you on that one. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:46:55 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: chord changes In a message dated 8/21/03 9:23:37 AM, FMY FL writes: << In a message dated 8/21/2003 9:05:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, waytoblu@mindspring.com writes: << The chords Joni uses are a big part I think of what makes her music so unique. >> I finished watching the Joni tribute in Toronto last night. When she sat down at the piano to play, she was talking (Joni TALK????) about when she wrote "Paprika Plains." She said she kept making up all these strange chords which sounded good, and THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A WRONG CHORD! So you're right Victor! Jimmy >> Well, I must admit that statement seems profound and a bit idealistic. But I think anyone who has learned to play an instrument knows that there ARE some very bad chords. Sometimes they just don't go with the rest of what you're playing and often, they just sound terrible no matter how you try to use them... that's why they're called "discordant." Obviously, the final decision lies with the composer or the player but I think everyone would find some "bad chords" from time to time. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:47:02 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: That "institution" (njc) << From: Catherine McKay > Subject: Re: Joni the wildflower > I feel compelled to admit that, as of next week, > I will have been > "institutionalized" for 38 years to the same > wonderful woman... and it hasn't been so > bad, guys. > > Kenny B Kenny, I often make inappropriate comments of that kind and I apologize to those whose marriages are wonderful, as I know many are. My marriage wasn't wonderful at all - to be honest, the most wonderful thing about it was that it ended. I apologize for my disdainful and too-flippant remarks about the "institution" of marriage. I am truly envious of (but at the same time happy for) those who have a great and long-lasting relationship with a kindred soul. It's basically my way of hiding the hurt and I am truly sorry if my snarky remarks offended anyone. I didn't get to talk to you at Jonifest, but I could tell by just looking at you, and from your posts on the list, that you are a wonderful person and I wish you and your wife many more years of happiness together. >> Catherine (and all those who replied to my original comment): I must admit that I expected some feedback after my little post since it's hard to find people staying together that long these days... and I AM a little proud of my marriage and my family. (I have two children that I am tremendously proud of, not because they're fabulously wealthy or CEO's of IBM or anything... but because they are good people.) And I don't want anyone to think our marriage been all sweetness and honey every day; in reality, we've had our ups & downs too (and I don't mean just under the covers.) But the longer you're with someone and the longer you're able to share GOOD things together, the easier it is to work through the BAD times. Nowadays, as soon as conflicts arise, too many people say, "I'm outta here," and they refuse to even try to make it work. (IMHO, of course.) Of course, if you've had a bad relationship, or someone has changed for the worse, or someone was abusive, then I see no reason for those people to stay together. The best thing, sometimes, is to know when to pack it in. Some people stay too long, thinking, "Oh, he (or she) will change." I've seen a lot of folks who were hurt more than they should have been, waiting for the other person to change, whether it was an alcoholic, an addict or cumpulsive gambler or an abusive spouse. I don't take offense to anything you said since all of us speak from our past experiences andbas you saidbyours was not a good one. People joke about "the institution" of marriage all the time and I can laugh along with the rest of you. But when reality sets in, I know I've lived 38 years with a great person, my best friend and lover, and someone who has put up with all of MY crap for all that time. ;-) Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:47:00 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: owning your favorite chords/language njc In a message dated 8/21/03 9:02:20 AM, anima_rising@yahoo.ca writes: << Wally Kairuz wrote: > i am profoundly affected by some chords and > progressions. major 7th and > major 9th chords appear in all my songs. Wally, I'm crazy about major 7ths too. I'll put them in any song I can, just to get that crazy sound. I also love those weird minor chords - I'm awfully fond of minor 6ths and minor 7ths, as well as sus 2s and 4s - - if you can get a minor 6th or 7th and sus it, so much the better! Catherine Toronto >> Wow! I'm just getting into chords big time with my piano lessons. Major 9th's; I think those are VERY hard to play on piano as it's SUCH a span... you need big hands or long fingers. Is it easier on guitar? Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:47:04 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: The Pizza Fund (njc) & after JoniFest happenings In a message dated 8/21/03 3:01:21 AM, les@jmdl.com writes: << From: CScag333@aol.com Subject: After-fest Impressions > What Ron didn't tell yall is that on the way he was approached by a young black man who asked for a contribution to the United Negro Pizza Fund!!!!!!! And Ron reached into his pocket and gave a very generous donation, because Ron is simply an amazingly kind person. What the black guy didnt know was that this generous donation was coming from a first rate South African white guy! Alright!!!! ( : Peace and Love, flower power, Cindy Scaglione< >> The United Negro Pizza Fund.... NOW I've heasrd it all! Even I would have donated to that guy on the basis of "originality and content." Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:20:05 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: fate (NJC) > are we fated to be who we are and be who we are with? this question has > haunted me all my life. it so boggles the mind. ! as > it is, i believe it was only fate and none of our individual designs that we > have to thank for (or curse) for our relationship. > but it does boggle the mind. > wally It does indeed. This very question continues to boggle my mind. Victor NP: Braves vs. Giants (3-0 Giants)top of 8th Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: owning your favorite chords/language njc > << Wally Kairuz wrote: > i am > profoundly affected by some chords and > > progressions. major 7th and > > major 9th chords appear in all my songs. --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > > Wow! I'm just getting into chords big time with > my piano lessons. Major > 9th's; I think those are VERY hard to play on piano > as it's SUCH a span... > you need big hands or long fingers. Is it easier on > guitar? > I'm not even sure what the difference is between a 9th and a 2nd, unless it's that a 9th is always an octave plus one note above the root (or an octave above the 2nd). I get a bit confused about it once it goes past a 7th. Also I'm not clear on whether or not you have to play the entire triad PLUS the other note (a 7th for example), or whether you can cheat a bit by getting rid of one of the notes. For example, an Am7 (A-minor-7th) chord in first position, standard tuning, on a guitar can be played: EADGBE ||||x| ------ ||x||| ------ with two fingers only, one on the first fret, B-string (a C), and the other on the 2nd fret, D-string (an E), so with the open chords as well, you've got: EAEGCE (ACE are the triad, G is the 7th) or you can play it like this: EADGBE ||||x| ------ ||xx|| ------ |||||X ------ Here you have to use 4 fingers, one on the first fret, B-string, one each on 2nd fret D and G, and one on third fret high E string. So this chord is: EAEACG (ACE for the triad of Am, G for the 7th - but this G is the highest note, so it is really a 7th? or is it a 15th?) The guitar books call both of them Am7 and they sound kind of the same, but not really. The first one is more plaintive sounding to me and the 2nd one is more like a rollicking blues sound - but what do I know? It's all in how you hear these things. I hope those stupid diagrams turn out once I send this, because my brain really hurts after trying to "draw" those chords using - and | ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:30:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: The Pizza Fund (njc) & after JoniFest happenings --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > > The United Negro Pizza Fund.... NOW I've heasrd > it all! Even I would > have donated to that guy on the basis of > "originality and content." I confess. So would I. If someone can make me laugh, it's worth the donation. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:46:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: That "institution" (njc) --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > it's hard to find people staying together that long > these days... and I AM a > little proud of my marriage and my family. (I have > two children that I am > tremendously proud of, not because they're > fabulously wealthy or CEO's of IBM or > anything... but because they are good people.) This is why I so love my kids, who can be right pains in the ass sometimes (but who can't?) I know they're good people and I want them to be happy & I don't give a rat's behind what they want to do for a living, (provided it's legal - or they don't get caught!). My kids aren't top scholars by any means, but they've got good hearts & they think for themselves, which is better than a PhD any day. I say, do what you love - if you can paid for it, so much the better. > Of course, if you've had a bad relationship, or > someone has changed for > the worse, or someone was abusive, then I see no > reason for those people to > stay together. The best thing, sometimes, is to know > when to pack it in. Some > people stay too long, thinking, "Oh, he (or she) > will change." I've seen a lot > of folks who were hurt more than they should have > been, waiting for the other > person to change, whether it was an alcoholic, an > addict or cumpulsive gambler > or an abusive spouse. That's basically what happened with me. He was abusive verbally, emotionally and sometimes physically (having read a description of Paranoid Personality Disorder, he displayed every symptom of this & there's really not a lot of treatment available, because, being paranoid, he wouldn't trust anyone enough to get help). Even though I knew on a practical level that I should get out a lot sooner than I did, part of me felt that I *had* to stay in it (for better or for worse which in this case was for worse or for worser! and because I didn't want to admit what a terrible mistake I had made - I'm way the hell too proud about that stuff!) I like to think I've learned something from that though, so all is not lost (and I've got those two great kids and a bunch of other stuff that I might not have appreciated otherwise.) Also, this isn't the kind of personal info I would normally share with a bunch of strangers, but we're not all strangers here, and I know there are others out there who have been through a lot of crap, so if they can see they're not alone, I don't mind sharing that, esp. if it can help someone else out who might be in a bad position right now (sorry - I don't have an 800 number though! LOL.) > I don't take offense to anything you said since > all of us speak from our > past experiences andbas you saidbyours was not a > good one. People joke about > "the institution" of marriage all the time and I can > laugh along with the rest > of you. But when reality sets in, I know I've lived > 38 years with a great > person, my best friend and lover, and someone who > has put up with all of MY crap > for all that time. ;-) Well, if I marry again and live to be... in my 80s or more? ... then maybe I'll have a 38-year marriage too. (Wow! It's still possible!) To conclude with the words of Joni: "Love takes so much courage; love takes so much shit!" (True, isn't it?) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:02:34 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2003 #413 This may have been mentioned earlier, I may have missed it....but I learned today that David Sanborn covers Man from Mars on his new CD, Timegain. A good cover year for Joni. Bryan That should have been "Timeagain." "Timegain" sounds like a bad sci-fi movie. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:04:04 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: August 22 1974: Joni performed at Temple University in Ambler, Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia. 1979: Joni performed the first of two nights at the Merriwether Post Pavillion in Columbia, Maryland. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=850 http://mppconcerts.com/home.asp - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:04:04 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: August 22 On August 22 the following articles were published: 1979: "Joni Mitchell's new disc includes Mingus' music" - Milwaukee Journal (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=849 1988: "Chalk Up Another One For Joni Mitchell" - US (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=392 1998: "Mitchell Unleashes 'Tiger' On Reprise" - Billboard (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=50 2000: "For Joni Mitchell, Artist, Singing Was Not Enough" - New York Times (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=540 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:27:49 +0100 From: "StephenToogood" Subject: Re: joni/king/bach/ravel Larry Klein said that, but I agree with him and with what you are saying too. I listen to Carole as well as Joni so hopefully they will both rub off me. Steve - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wally Kairuz" To: "StephenToogood" ; "Joni List" Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:04 PM Subject: joni/king/bach/ravel > stephen, > you've put it so precisely! i think that a popular music education should be > based on the study of the music of carole king and that of joni mitchell. > with king you learn all the conventions of pop, even a measure of > "conventional inventiveness". after studying her music you can write pop > very proficiently. she's the "bach period" that everybody must go through > when studying composition. joni is the "ravel period", when one begins to > deconstruct and later integrate all the traditional music education one's > had. in joni's chord structures you find all those old friends but in > entirely new clothes. snippets of pop chord progressions will show up now > and then but in fragments and in totally unexpected contexts. get king and > you'll get the beatles, the standards, etc.. get joni and you'll get all > that with a new perspective plus the key to understanding all the rest. > (disclaimer: i am NOT comparing the musicianship of bach and ravel with > those of king and mitchell. i am drawing an analogy between bach's and > ravel's places in a musician's education and the roles of king and mitchell > in a pop musician's learning process.) > wally > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > > StephenToogood > > Enviado el: Jueves, 21 de Agosto de 2003 03:46 p.m. > > Para: Joni List > > Asunto: Re: Joni chord changes > > > > > > She's not > > hemmed in by it at all and she moves the chords just in > > the way that they feel right to her. She was the James > > Joyce of guitar tunings. > > Steve T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:38:16 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Sisters Chris wrote: >I'm pretty inarticulate when it comes to politics (I'll > defer to Kakki!), but sometimes stuff does get to me and hopefully I > remember enough to use my vote effectively. Ha! That's just my verbose Irish side! ;-) Your post is very articulate and well said and I appreciate hearing it coming from a man. You get it. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #414 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)