From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #365 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, July 20 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 365 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- For Free [BRYAN8847@aol.com] Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC [tantra-apso ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] warning: gay topic njc [tantra-apso ] Re: warning: gay topic njc [tantra-apso ] Re: Marianne W. NJC ["kakki" ] Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re: For Free [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc [Catherine McKay Joni as hypocrite? [Catherine McKay ] Re: JoniFest Activities, njc ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: MP3s (was covers king) njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc [Randy Remote ] To Joni Fans - a note from anonanon [Icnh@hotmail.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [dsk ] re: For Free ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: For Free [dsk ] Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc [tantra-apso ] Re: For Free [dsk ] Re: For Free [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Brag njc [Catherine McKay ] Perma-Vine ["Garret" ] Re: Brag njc [tantra-apso ] Fw: Lines njc ["Mark or Travis" ] [none] ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Fw: Lines njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: JoniFest Activities, njc [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Covers njc [Gary Zack ] Re: Brag njc [Susan Guzzi ] Re: Covers njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Today's Library Links: July 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today in History: July 20 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 03:07:34 EDT From: BRYAN8847@aol.com Subject: For Free Speaking of For Free (sorry if this is NJC sort of), has anyone hear Judy Collins' cover of For Free? It was recorded in the late 80s with Richard Stolzman (or something like that). A more mature and sophisticated treatment of the song, it's very nice. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:39:04 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC happy happy birthday lori, hope you enjoyed your day with mr & mrs c! > SAY > > H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y > > AND GLORIFY LORI FYE! kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:07:37 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Kate Bennett wrote: >>She can talk the Talk but not Walk the Walk.< >> >> > >well said, this is what i've heard from others who have been in her sphere >of influence...she is very intelligent & a good writer...its just that >certain kinds of writings almost require that the person be true to what >they say/write... > I have never been into gurus. I was persauded aganist my better judgement to attend theis seminar. I had read her stuff, was impressed. i was just so disappointed to realise she wasn;t as she wrote. And genuinely appalled at the way she was with some people at the seminar. You live and learn. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:44 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] warning: gay topic njc Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >: fenway park, > there is a fenway round here. This are is called The Fens. The locals are called Fennies. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:12:14 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Marianne W. NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Kakki writes: > > about what God >allegedly wants or how I am supposed to act, I have trouble focussing! > me too. it is the height of arrogance. NO ONE knows what God wants or what God's plan is! It makes me stomach churn when people say'it's God's plan'. There has been a lot of that recently here in the hoo ha over a gay Bishop and so called 'gay marriage'. Allthese bigots shouting about God's Plan. They don't know, all they know is the filth in their own hearts and minds. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:16:15 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: warning: gay topic njc Wonderful news Wally.The UK is supposedly following soon.... Wally Kairuz wrote: >today july 18 2003, at 4:30 pm buenos aires had its first civil union >between two same-sex people!!!!!!!! it is the first time a civil union takes >place in latin america. four couples got the "paper from the city hall": two >men, two women, a transgendered person and a man, and a straight couple. >the straight couple did it because the license fee is cheaper for a civil >union than for a civil marriage. > >oh where is my bridegroom when i most need it? > >wally, so very happy and wistful at the same time ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 02:41:53 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Marianne W. NJC Murph wrote: > There's credibility for ya! Ah, yep! ;-) > And didn't Marianne have something to do with the Clintons? I seem to > remember something about her being a White House guest, at least. Don't know - I tuned out to most of all that back then! >She gave me quite a few MW tapes to listen to > and I did what I always do when confronted with anyone who professes to have > all the spiritual answers in a neat little package -- I tuned out. Aiiiiy and oy! I've had a few friends succumb to similar situations with cults and it has made me very intolerant of them. It's hard to see a friend give themself over to such manipulation ;-( >(I have been doing this since my early and catastrophic introduction to Catholicism. This is funny because I think my own being steeped in Catholicism has made me immune to anything else that may come down the pike thereafter. I get what you are saying, however, having also attended a very fundamentalist protestant school for a few years. Believe it or not, I was raised up by liberal nuns and priests who I think all went on to become the early hippies in Haight Asbury! I got the kinder, gentler version ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC Woooo Hooooooooooo HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!!! Lori hope its the beginning of the best chapters in your life! I have raised many a martini this past night in your honor and will continue to do so for you and all our July & August Birthday celebrations - after all we are now comin upon Leo and it is the best time of the year. And oh yeah that silly little party we'll all be at in less than 3 weeks ... well there'll be soome glass raising there too - ya think? Looking forward to laying a big birthday kiss on ya in person sistah! Peace, Susan - --- Lori Fye wrote: > > SAY > > > > H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y > > > > AND GLORIFY LORI FYE! > > > Aww shucks, Wally! (And Donna and all!) Thanks!! > > I've probably said this here before, but my mom would sometimes wake me > by saying "MorninGlori!" > > : ) > > gLori Fye, > who would've named a daughter "Electra" except for that complex and > cartoon Cathy's dog, but who also likes Clara, Morti, and Recti Fye ... > and Semper Fye, too!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:23:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free In a message dated 7/19/2003 3:08:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BRYAN8847@aol.com writes: > has anyone hear Judy > Collins' cover of For Free? Yes, among MANY others, Bryan. It is a lovely version, perhaps my favorite Judy Collins' Joni cover. Ethel Ennis does a fun jazzy version, and HER street musician is playing a saxophone. David Crosby, always very vocal about Joni's genius, praised the song and recorded it with The Byrds & performed it live many times with them and with CPR. Bette Midler performed it in her early bathhouse shows, with Barry Manilow tinkling the ivories. And speaking of the ivories, Fred Simon turns in a beautiful version of it on his "Songs Of My Youth, Volume 1", along with other Joni's, Beatles, and other gems. James Taylor (who may have partially been the muse - who knows?) has performed it live solo as well (1970), in his own inimitable 'aw shucks' style. Thanks to wonderful JMDL'ers everywhere, we've got these unreleased recordings in our covers collection - soon to be re-released in an inbox near you, so stay tuned! To see details about all the (23) For Free covers I've found thus far: http://www.jmdl.com/covers/index.cfm And search on the song title. Bob NP: Tasmin Archer, "Sleeping Satellite" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc --- vince wrote: > someone(s) came through our apartment complex and > torched 2 cars, 1 of > mine being 1 of them - the other car received much > worse damage (it is > burnt down) than mine since my upstairs neighbor > used the fire > extinguisher on mine, although from what I can see, > it may be a total > loss anyway. > > firefighters everywhere right now and my mind is > just blown away That is nasty, and completely creepy. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:34:51 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Buffy In a message dated 7/18/2003 10:01:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, michaelo@webnet.qc.ca writes: > Buffy's still in excellent voice, very dynamic > and cheerful, still singing her old hits, Up Where We Belong, Until Its Time > For You to Go and Universal Soldier. And fwiw, she also recorded "Song To A Seagull", "The Circle Game" and the controversial "For Free". ;~) Her warbly voice is really not my cup of tea, but that's just me. She followed Ian & Sylvia's lead with Circle Game and tried to compress it into a 3-minute hit, which just comes off as always so funny to me. It flies right by the tenderness of the song imo. Bob NP: Stevie Ray Vaughan, "Pride & Joy" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:40:11 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Marianne W. NJC I asked: << > And didn't Marianne have something to do with the Clintons? I seem to > remember something about her being a White House guest, at least. And Kakki answered: Don't know - I tuned out to most of all that back then! >> Boy I love it when my memory works! I did a quick search and found the following at motherjones.com: By preaching peace and love, Williamson herself has become a celebrity of sorts, going from small prayer circles to the stages of auditoriums seating thousands. She was at the altar blessing Elizabeth Taylor's last failed marriage. She was invited to the White House to share her thoughts with Hillary Clinton. As a result, she is in the awkward position of promoting emotional accessibility while hiring handlers to keep unpleasantness away. Publicists want to know in advance what Williamson will be asked. An agent refuses to provide sales figures for her books and cassettes, arguing that the figures are proprietary. She too can be elusive, or at least more circumspect than her books would indicate. Williamson says she never considered what The Healing of America might accomplish, for example, and she is reluctant to address the impact she has had on so many Americans. For more, go to: http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/ND97/gorov_jump.html --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > I may have to surrender my decoder ring when this is > widely known but LADIES > OF THE CANYON often strikes me, in places as > cloying. Not today, though. > Today I'm in tune with "Morning/Morgantown" and the > later "California". I don't listen to it much either. I loved it when I was a teenager but now I find it a bit too saccharine or something. Then again, I haven't listened to it for a while, so maybe it's time. "For Free" isn't one of my favourite songs, but maybe it's because it's one that you hear so often (not as often as BYT - Gaaaah!) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:29:25 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY LORI!!!! HOPE IT WAS GRAND ROSIE In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:36:18 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers Possibilities > > Hey Bob, What would you think about converting all the covers to MP3 so > > they would fit on 4 CDs instead of 40. > > > > I suppose I could, depending on the interest. I've learned not to become too > > overzealous and go for it and then have 4-5 people respond. > Bob, I only have a couple of your covers CD's (frankly, I've had more new material to absorb in the last couple of years than I could really handle, but now I am ready for a bit more). The 2 you sent to me were the Sweet 16 disc and the Covers 1 disk. It struck me that there was such a broad range of quality on these that the next challenge for the world renowned expert might be to compile them in useful formats of various types. I suspect that that might take some high-tech assistance, but.... On the Covers 1 version, I particularly enjoyed Tim Curry's CBS&SF and Holly Cole's River (my wife hated the Barry Manilow cover of that song, but loved the JT cover at the tribute). As against that, I was a bit disappointed (perhaps because of all of the hype that preceded it) with Bonnie's cover of Midway (I think Joni's version flows better with this song, which has "round-like" qualities. I would be interested in hearing (and even in helping to compile) some of these covers into different formats. Several ideas spring to mind. For example, reconstructing the various Joni albums using the "best of " each song (not necessarily trying for homogeniety or seamlessness). I realize that not all of Joni's records could be completed on that basis, but you could start them all (heck, maybe fill in the missing cuts with Joni's version, until a cover appears). The suggestion to condense them into fewer MP3's might enable you to enlist opinions from other "judges" on the list as you see fit (like, "I am torn between 3 covers of CBS&SF - please vote among them gang"). Or, you could hold contests on the frequently covered songs, selecting what you think are the 10 best and letting us help pick a winner. Or, you could compile a covers CD of Love Songs, or Traveling/Flight Songs, or Life in Suburbia Songs, or Social Commentary Songs or Sorrow Songs or RocknRoll songs or Anti War Songs (10 to an album is enough, no ?) or Universal Theme songs, or Raceless Genderless Songs or Well, I was just splashing out some pretty useless thoughts, but I am sure you and others could come up with better compilation themes. By keeping down the riff raff and making the doses digestible and of high quality, I bet you could keep people interested for some time. Maybe we could talk some at the Fest about a first "trial ballon" of this type. Anyway, thanks for all your contributions to the list. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:38:17 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut > & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody > will get too miffed by the length: Trying hard to provoke a response again, eh Muller ? (note that Bob M and Bob S do not get the job done on this list, so since you were mulling this over I thought I'd call you a muller - oh you pronounce your name like the pack animal - never mind). Anyway, my preliminary thoughts on this post are: 1. Morton was very good about stating his biases in front of his opinion. 2. I think that he is not terribly accurate with this words - perhaps his lack of sensitivity to words and art makes it difficult for him to appreciate the artistry of this (and similar songs). Also, it may limit his ability to express what he is actually thinking, I suspect. 3. I do not find Joni to be self-pitying generally, and certainly not in this song. Au contrere, I think she is self critical in this and many other songs, painting honest portraits of her failings, and once again striking the chord of recognition in many of us with similar feelings and experiences. Here, she is not feeling sorry for herself - she does not like herself particularly for her passing his music by (especially since she is capable of appreciating him). She is perhaps pitying the clarinetist, and feeling guilty about her wealth and good fortune in contrast to his. There is much more self-pity to pick on in Conversation than there is in For Free. 4. I am unimpressed by the casual use of vulgarity to make one's point - vulgarity has its place, but this was not the place, IMO - his use of it biases me against his point of view. 5. Joni's self pitying persona took form (I think) in the late seventies, and peaked in the 80's and early 90's. It did not become her, IMO, and this guy sounds to me like he was reacting to that persona rather than to the genre his is criticizing when he posted this piece. "Sitting round in mansions writing songs about how webve got to get back to the land, shagging other mewling singy-songwriters and oh how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git making lots of dosh singing about how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git." Now this could be about the whole Laurel Canyon group, but it sound like he is aiming at Joni in particular here. There is a difference between getting back to the land and getting back to the garden - is that distinction lost on this author ? Getting back to the land could be a means to the end of getting back to the garden, but there are other routes back there, don't you think ? And the implication of promiscuity for its own sake is unmistakably there and off the mark in this case - I am unimpressed by that type of inaccuracy. Finally, Joni did not write at all about how awful it was to be Joni, the rich performer. I agree that it ironic that Joni made money writing a song about how guilty she felt about having been lucky enough to have made money writing earlier songs. People who miss the point of irony are insensitive, and as I have stated, I think all insensitive people should go to hell. (Now, if anyone on this list does not get my insensitive remark as ironic, I give up). "Mitchell uses the fact of a fellow playing rather splendidly in the street as a vehicle for her own sellable self-pity, a means by which to make much more of the money she is moaning about. And did she speak to the fellow? Did she invite him to play on the record? Nope...." The implication here is that Joni wrote the song as a means to make money. However, I believe (and I think most would agree) that Joni pretty much throughout was primarily concerned with the art, and secondarily about the making of money. That seems to have been lost on the author, but that is his loss. "At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly to the public." I do not believe that said 'assumption" is at the heart of this song at all. The heart of this song is the sad realization that virtue and talent and beauty often go unrecognized, while less talented, less virutuous, and/or better packaged material often gets more reward than it deserves. It is not even close to being a perfect world. Just a commentary. I bet we have all felt sorry for ourselves in this regard from time to time (perhaps even the tougher-than-that author Mr. Morton, though I doubt he would admit it publicly so as to spare us from his angst). Joni did imply that the music on the street had a purity not to be found in commercially packaged work (hers included), and was probably feeling some pity for the guy, and some guilt about her success - and about passing his music by - but that guilt passes like the summer, we live to fail again and again, and once in a while we do something good to help make up for it, or maybe we never do. If Joni were holding herself up as a paragon of virtue, she would be hypocritical - but she is not. Au contrere, she exposes her failings, and thereby her limitations and her humanity. "(and whoever told her she could paint?)" You know something - I think this person is more bitter about Joni's success (and his lack of success - or perhaps the relative lack of success of his favorite artist - than Joni was about her lack of recognition. There - that's my take on this. What do you all think ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:04:35 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: MP3s (was covers king) njc Thanks for your reply, Jim. Of course I will admit that MP3 is not technically as good as a CD. It is suitable for "sampler" albums which is how I would describe the covers project. I'm guessing that many of those songs aren't worth listening to more than once, if that. ( please don't take offense, Bob) I was surprised 56kbps sounded reasonably good. Thats a 24X reduction in file size. I didn't make it clear enough, I burnt a regular CD and played it in my living room stereo. I'll bet in a few years, everyone will be pooh-poohing CDs in favour of DVD-Audio. 8-) btw A while back, you mentioned something about the sound quality of your cheap-o DVD player. I recently bought a no-name $69 Cdn. DVD and definitely agree. When I bought my first CD - - a Sony changer 14 years ago, I remember thinking that it sounded "flat" , that is the sound didn't seem to fill the room. It seemed to be stuck to the wall like wallpaper. This DVD is much better, much warmer, more present. I may sound like an audiophile, but I'm not really. I repair audio and electronic musical equipment for a living. Doug Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >4. Amp and speakers. Everything sounds "good enough" at Radio Shack when >the 6 O'Clock Nightly News is on 3 feet away. Tell me you're not judging >ultimate sound quality using a desktop's CD-ROM, sound card, and computer >speakers! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:31:10 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: JoniFest Activities, njc Not to worry. The "Shock" phase sets in on Monday when people are in airports. "Burn-out" doesn't happen until Tuesday morning. For some it's very severe but for me, it's the exciting beginning of the "Publishing" phase. Lama (remember that njc tag) np: YES, recorded in Aug 2002 Kenny B said,> I'm sorry I can't let up to Full Moon for the Thursday & Friday activities but at least I was able to arrange all day & night Saturday & Sunday (leaving Monday morning). I hope all of you arriving early don't burn yourselves out by the time I get there....> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:00:31 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc Good Lord! Vince, this is such horrible news. Whoever would do something like this is really messed up. I remember feeling completely violated and angry when my car was stolen in San Francisco while I was at the gym. But, had that been a personal attack, I'm sure it would feel even worse. I hope you are doing okay and I'll be saying prayers for you. You are a good person and much beloved. I think about what Joni once said about how hard it is to maintain your heart in the world today when the streets are so mean... Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:08:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: MP3s (was covers king) njc In a message dated 7/19/2003 12:10:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmeek@falls.igs.net writes: > I'm guessing that > many of those songs aren't worth listening to more than once, if that. ( > please don't take offense, Bob) > Hey, no offense taken at all, Doug. To each their own, you know. Some aren't interested at all, some here have all of them and still want more. Some have 2 or 3 or just want the creme de la creme and that's cool. But I usually find something to like in all of them sooner or later; sometimes an interesting harmonic, sometimes a changed lyric, sometimes a radically different interpretation. Sometimes just a good chuckle when you hear one that's really bad. If for nothing else, at least it keeps me hanging 'round. Bob NP: Death Cab For Cutie, "405" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:45:05 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc Vince, that's terrible. If it's any help, we all love ya. vince wrote: > someone(s) came through our apartment complex and torched 2 cars, 1 of > mine being 1 of them - the other car received much worse damage (it is > burnt down) than mine since my upstairs neighbor used the fire > extinguisher on mine, although from what I can see, it may be a total > loss anyway. > > firefighters everywhere right now and my mind is just blown away > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:53:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: 1 of my cars got torched today njc vince! unbelievably sad and creepy. why would anyone do something like that? i am so happy that you were not hurt. love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:58:43 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: touched by an angel njc tantra-apso wrote: > > Debra-I too wathc this series when it is on and I remember to. Gald you > mentioned it otherwise i would not have! Yes it is syruppy but it has a > message, a good one, and it works. Americans are very good at this sort > of tv. Snetimental and overblown smaltz but hard to resist! And to that show's credit, they do cover some serious topics, ones that are not easily resolved. The "God loves you" speech toward the end of every show doesn't solve the problems of that week's person in distress, but just points the person in a direction he or she hadn't seen before, which is the point of any spiritual awakening. So, as sappy as the show can be, there are some good things about it. > Glad you cleared up the question i ahve wondered-what this somehting to > do with Marrianne Williamson. Martha Williamson is credited in the credits. Turns out I was completely wrong about Marianne being connected with the show. Must be because I was always searching for tissues at the end of each show and never paid close attention to the ending credits. Add to that Martha and Marianne having the same surname, both promoting spirituality, and both being identified with LA, and, whoops, I was mistaken. It's obvious with just a quick google search that Martha and Marianne are so busy in their respective careers there's no way they could be the same person. Their photos are so similar it looks like they could be sisters, but there's no mention of that anywhere. > I like monica and Delta whatsit and the angel of death guy is rather > attractive.... And his name is John Dye. How appropriate is that? He's mentioned on talk shows that when he travels by plane, the passengers are very afraid. I wouldn't want to see him coming my way either. I imagine the rational part of my brain would have to go into painful overdrive to lessen the stress. "he's just an actor, just an actor...." Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Icnh@hotmail.com Subject: To Joni Fans - a note from anonanon Dear Joni Fans, Your friend anonanon was visiting The Quote Garden website today and wanted to share this page with you: http://www.quotegarden.com/conformity.html Best regards, The Quote Garden www.quotegarden.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:35:55 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > > I have a perspective for you on this question. Joni was conflicted about > seeing the freedom of the street musician. She was conflicted about getting > wealth, status, and adoration for her work. She was conflicted about the > demand to be a human jukebox. > > Finally, she felt that her skin was like cellophane; she had see-through > skin. And being aware of all those conflicts, and willing to share them, is what makes her such a great artist. > I *know* you're with me so far. Yep, and then... > The only logical thing to do was to get back to the Garden. Build a garret. > Reclaim her amateur status. > ..... > Transformed, her true self, the painter who only pleases herself, was thus > restored. Complete again, she is able to go *TO* the city without BECOMING > the shut-down Urbanite that conflicts her. Maybe so. Motives for behavior are extremely complex, though. I have difficulty understanding why *I* do things, and I think it's impossible to figure out the reasons for anyone else's behavior, even though it can be an interesting and imaginative exercise. While reading your twisty thoughts about Joni, I picture a maze or a snake biting its own tail... and usually I see her as a "straight ahead" type person, who doesn't do a lot of backtracking and second guessing of herself. She experiences, she feels, she captures both in some creative form, she moves on... Whatever her inner psychological and emotional dynamics may be, my simple thought is that I'm glad they spewed out in all that she's given us. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 15:04:31 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: For Free <> I think this guy does not understand the setting of the song, at least in the way I see it. First of all, Joni is on the other side of the street watching the clarinet player. "across the street he stood." She wants to get over but can't because the light is red. So she is stuck watching all the passersby on the other side of the street ignore this musician. Second of all, when the light turns green, she tries to cross the street to get to the musician, but then she hears his "refrain." A "refrain" plays throughout a song; however, typically, songs also end on the "refrain." I think the musician was ending his song and then packing it up. I don't think Joni used the word "refrain" without intention. I especially like Joni's version on the "refuge of the roads video" where she adds in: "Playing like a fallin' angel, Playing like a rising star, Playing to a hat full of nothing, to the honking of the cars" Even though, the musician was playing good for free, he still would have liked to have made some money, thus the "hat full of nothin'." I would think that Joni has experienced playing to a "hat full of nothing" early in her career and can sympathize/relate to the musician. I have to agree with Emiliano's statement: >In my humble opinion, hypocritical means something like "lying about one self, in order to excuse or even trying to rise at other's level (that fucking competition again) Joni is not hypocritical, rather she is courageous for facing internal conflict head on! Mia _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:17:11 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Free Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > 3. I do not find Joni to be self-pitying generally, and certainly not in > this song. I agree with both those statements, and then I started wondering about other Joni songs that I think do express self-pity. (For the record, in my opinion small doses of self-pity can be healthy when they're the first stage in processing one's feelings about whatever upsetting thing has happened. Without recognizing one's feelings, no matter what they may be, I don't think it's possible to completely move on and learn from the experience, and Joni does always move on. That, for me, is what makes her music so healing.) So, with the highest regard for all of Joni's feelings, my vote for most self-pitying song goes to "River": "I'm selfish and I'm sad. Now I've gone and lost the best baby that I ever had, oh, I wish I had a river I could skate awaaaaaaay on..." Great song! My vote for second most self-pitying song goes to "Amelia": "It's so hard to obey his sad request of me to kindly stay away..." That's my favorite Joni song because it's raw and melancholy sounding and completely honest, and she's making deliberate efforts to process her self-pitying feelings. Self-pity songs are not nearly as much fun to think about as "boom boom pachyderm" ones are, but we've already done the Joni's sexiest song thing, although I'd be up for another go round of that one if anyone's interested. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:34:18 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: 1 of my cars got torched today njc this just reminds me of the hell hole we used to live in. that happened all the time. My car was wrecked plenty of times-never torched but all tirres slashed, windows smahed, windows in our home samshed. How I managed to live there so long I don't know. I know what this feels like. Wally Kairuz wrote: >vince! unbelievably sad and creepy. why would anyone do something like that? >i am so happy that you were not hurt. >love, >wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:36:15 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Brag njc I am still awaiting my trip to Papworth for whatever it is they intend doing to my heart. However, my brag is I have now lost 55lbs. It has been very easy, nevr hungry, never felt so good. oh and perfectly stable mood wise too-for 9 mths now and no meds. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:06:16 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Free Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > The implication here is that Joni wrote the song as a means to make money. > However, I believe (and I think most would agree) that Joni pretty much > throughout was primarily concerned with the art, and secondarily about the > making of money. That seems to have been lost on the author, but that is his > loss. It's a complete creativity killer to imagine what might happen to any finished "product". So in the sense that Joni was completely involved in and absorbed by the creative process (whatever the product might be), where her music is concerned I agree she was primarily concerned with the art. At the same time, I think she always had the business aspect of it in mind, in a way she never has with her painting. It's an interesting paradox that the product she had the least creative romanticism about is the one that is most honest and originally expressive (in my opinion). Debra Shea NPIMH: Graham Nash in WOHAM talking about Joni "not being there" when she was working on something... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:06:23 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: For Free In a message dated 7/19/2003 10:38:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobsart48 writes: > The heart of this song is the sad realization that virtue and talent and > beauty often go unrecognized, while less talented, less virutuous, and/or > better packaged material often gets more reward than it deserves. Hey, a great post there Bob...I've been mulling/mule-ing it over, and you put a LOT out there to ponder upon. This is certainly one facet of this song; it's almost like a cut gem with many sides to it. It's also, As Azeem stated, about the trappings of fame, and the realization that she couldn't return to that status herself. In some of the '74 recordings she goes on after the song to tell a story about seeing the clarinetist without his clarinet, and she asks him where it is, and he says that someone stole it. So she goes and buys him another one...and then she runs into him again, and again his clarinet is gone, only this time he's wearing sunglasses and has a sign around his neck which reads "Help Me - I'm Blind", and she realizes that maybe the guy was more con artist all along than anything else. It's sort of an interesting epilogue I think. How would you (meaning any of you obviously) compare For Free to For The Roses, in terms of "musical innocence lost", particularly this section: Up the charts Off to the airport Your name's in the news Everything's first class The lights go down And it's just you up there Getting them to feel like that Remember the days when you used to sit And make up your tunes for love And pour your simple sorrow To the soundhole and your knee Bob NP: Train, "Meet Virginia" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:15:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 7:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emilianopd@mundo-r.com writes: > (Bob, you set the point "is she slyly _and with a view from the top_ > insulting us, her audience?" though you cut before the crucial line > "They knew he had never > Been on their t.v. > So they passed his music by") > That's a good point, Emiliano...but like so many of her songs the good lyrics just go on & on and it's hard to know when to cut them. And she updated that lyric for her '83 tour (the Refuge Of The Roads that Mia referenced) and sang: "They knew he had never been on MTV..." And yes, that "hatful of nothing" coda adds a lot I think. And it's another point that probably today in your town (or mine) there will be good musicians playing somewhere (although probably not for free) but we'll "pass them by" because we haven't heard of them either. SOme of the best shows I've seen were the ones I took a chance on (like REM in a small club in 1980), or opening acts I'd not heard of, like Amy Correia opening for Richard Thompson. Bob NP: Elvis Costello, "Ship Of Fools" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:39:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Brag njc --- tantra-apso wrote: > I am still awaiting my trip to Papworth for whatever > it is they intend > doing to my heart. > However, my brag is I have now lost 55lbs. It has > been very easy, nevr > hungry, never felt so good. > oh and perfectly stable mood wise too-for 9 mths now > and no meds. Wayda go, bro! and this was all due to avoiding... crabs... right? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:08:07 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: Perma-Vine I have recieved the Joni and James perma-vine and am now posting an offer for this disc. Who wants it next?? Whoever wants this original, just let me know:-) And, anyone who doesnt have burniong facilities and wants to get a copy of this let me know, and ill pop one in the post soon. Im really enjoying it. GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:53:57 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: Brag njc Catherine McKay wrote: > --- tantra-apso wrote: > I am >still awaiting my trip to Papworth for whatever > > >>it is they intend >>doing to my heart. >>However, my brag is I have now lost 55lbs. It has >>been very easy, nevr >>hungry, never felt so good. >>oh and perfectly stable mood wise too-for 9 mths now >>and no meds. >> >> > >Wayda go, bro! and this was all due to avoiding... >crabs... right? > yes. very few crabs..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:15:37 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Fw: Lines njc > > Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, > > "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and > > drink whatever comes out?" > > > >Who was the first person to say, "See that chicken > > there... I'm gonna eat the next thing that comes > > outta it's butt." > > > > Why do toasters always have a setting that burns the > > toast to a horrible crisp, which no decent human > > being would eat? > > > > Why is there a light in the fridge and not in the > > freezer? > > > > If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there > > a song about him? > > > > Can a hearse carrying a corpse drive in the carpool > > lane? > > > > If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a > > radio out of coconut, why can't he fix a hole in a > > boat? > > > > Why do people point to their wrist when asking for > > the time, but don't point to their crotch when they > > ask here the bathroom is? > > > > Why does your OB-GYN leave the room when you get > > undressed if they are going to look up there anyway? > > > > Why does Goofy stand erect while Pluto remains on > > all fours? They're both dogs! > > > > What do you call male ballerinas? > > > > Can blind people see their dreams? Do they dream?? > > > > If Wile E. Coyote had enough money to buy all that > > Acme crap, why didn't he just buy dinner? > > > > If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? > > > > If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is > > made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made > > from? > > > > If electricity comes from electrons, does morality > > come from morons? > > > > Is Disney World the only people trap operated by a > > mouse? > > > > Why do the Alphabet song and Twinkle, Twinkle Little > >Star have the same tune? > > > > Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet > >Soup? > > > > Why do they call it an asteroid when it's outside > > the atmosphere, but call it a hemorrhoid when it's > >in your ass? > > > > Did you ever notice that when you blow in a dog's > > face, he gets mad at you, but when you take him on a > > car ride, he sticks his head out the window? > > > > Does pushing the elevator button more than once make > > it arrive faster? > > > > Do you ever wonder why you gave me your e-mail > > address in the first place? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:16:09 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: [none] Experts. Perusing music sites and currently on Gino Vanelli. While doing so, looked up Nightwalker and thought I would get the cd as I left the album back in Texas. It gives credit to our Joan. Is she on that album? mack ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:20:26 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: Lines njc Mark asks: << > > Why do people point to their wrist when asking for > > the time, but don't point to their crotch when they > > ask here the bathroom is? I do. And: > > What do you call male ballerinas? >> Homos? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:31:53 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: JoniFest Activities, njc In a message dated 7/19/03 12:31:23 PM, jlamadoo@fuse.net writes: << Not to worry. The "Shock" phase sets in on Monday when people are in airports. "Burn-out" doesn't happen until Tuesday morning. For some it's very severe but for me, it's the exciting beginning of the "Publishing" phase. Lama (remember that njc tag) >> I thought it HAD Joni content; after all, it's the JoniFest! Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:17:35 -0700 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: Covers njc But I usually find something to like in all of them sooner or later; sometimes an interesting harmonic, sometimes a changed lyric, sometimes a radically different interpretation. Sometimes just a good chuckle when you hear one that's really bad. If for nothing else, at least it keeps me hanging 'round. Bob And we are very glad of that Bob!!! Best, Gary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Brag njc Woo Hoooo Colin congrats hun - I know its not easy but seems like when you are ready you can almost do it with your eyes closed - course that helps when trying to avoid food, - not being able to see it that is. Now if only we could avoid smelling it too! LOL! Ya know I never get hungry either - never give myself the chance to! Keep on keeping on brother! Peace, Susan NP: Laura Nyro/And When I Die - --- tantra-apso wrote: > I am still awaiting my trip to Papworth for whatever it is they intend > doing to my heart. > However, my brag is I have now lost 55lbs. It has been very easy, nevr > hungry, never felt so good. > oh and perfectly stable mood wise too-for 9 mths now and no meds. > bw > colin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:56:33 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers njc Muller wrote: << If for nothing else, at least it keeps me hanging 'round. >> And Gary kindly said: << we are very glad of that Bob!!! >> Yes, Bob. Ecstatic. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:07:37 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: July 20 On July 20 the following article was published: 1983: "Time has been good to Joni Mitchell" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=877 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:07:37 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: July 20 1983: Joni performed a controversial concert in Boston. More info: http://www.jmdl.com/performances/docs/830720.cfm - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #365 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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