From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #363 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, July 18 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 363 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- BSG (ex LRB) choose Joni [Gerald McNamara ] Re: 8 Songpoets Book [Gary Zack ] Turn it Up, I can't Hear the Words ["Colin Bishop" Joni as hypocrite? LONG [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Mark or Travis" Joni as hypocrite? LONG ["Donna Binkley" Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [Jenny Goodspeed ] SMSs for madiba's 85th birthday NJC [dsk ] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG [Catherine McKay ] MP3s (was covers king) njc [Doug ] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG [dsk ] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? [Deb Messling ] Re: eastmountainsouth NJC [dsk ] july 18!!!!!!! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC ["Donna Binkley" ] Woman of Heart and Mind [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: MP3s (was covers king) njc ["Music Is Special" ] touched by an angel njc [tantra-apso ] Re: t-shirts -- njc ["kerry" ] Re: t-shirts -- njc [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? njc ["mack watson-bush" Joni as hypocrite? [=?utf-8?Q?Emiliano_Pati=C3=B1o?= Subject: BSG (ex LRB) choose Joni Went to a concert last night here in Melbourne at the stately Forum Theatre. Before the curtain rose the BSN album was playing over the PA. Most unusual as we hardly ever hear any Joni, anywhere. There was a long delay before the band came on, so the audience got to hear just about the whole album. So what band would chose Joni as its pre-show music ??? It was Birtles, Shorrock and Goble who were the founding members and main singers and songwriters of the Little River Band. Backed by a 5 piece group of multi-instrumentalists, they were absolutely fantastic. Kinda like Brian Wilson with the Wondermints, but B,S & G are singing better than ever. Some entertainers improve with age ! If you ever liked LRB, you'd have to love BSG. The band called Little River Band continue to tour the world, but they haven't been back to Australia for many years, and although BSG sound exactly like the old LRB records, they've all signed away their legal rights to the LRB name and logo. I wonder what the current LRB sounds like. Nowhere near as good as BSG, I'll bet ! -Gerald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:15:04 -0700 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: 8 Songpoets Book I have this book and I am sure that either Joni or Laura or both have a chapter in the book. I don't have it handy as it's in storage but I'll be going through some of my things next week and I'll see if I can find it - and at least we can find out who the chapters are about. Best regards, Gary p.s. Hi Kakki!! kakki wrote: >Adding a me, too. I think I have heard of it but it was long ago. Would >love to read more details, Mike. > >Kakki > >> Hey, Mike >> I'd be very interested in the book you describe. I've never heard of >> >it > >>but if anyone knows of a copy for sale, I'd probably buy it; biographies >>fascinate me and I ESPECIALLY love bios on musicians. >> >> Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:47:06 +0100 From: "Colin Bishop" Subject: Turn it Up, I can't Hear the Words Mike has recalled the title of the book accurately. It was published by Simon and Schuster, Ny, in 1973 & by Coronet in Britain in 1975. It concentrates on lyricists (obviously), and particularly Bob Dylan, Robert Hunter, Van Morrison, Joni, Randy Newmam, Laura Nyro, & Don Mclean. Colin Bishop - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 7/17/03 3:00:36 AM, "mike pritchard" > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:58:44 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Ron writes: << SMS's >> Is it too early in the morning for me to figure this out? Or do I not know what it means? In celebration of Mandela's birthday, here's my favorite quotation from him: Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, "Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?" Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are born to make manifest the glory of God within us. It is not just in some of us. It is in everyone. And as we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others. Nelson Mandela, Inaugural speech --Bob, who especially loves the "gorgeous" and "fabulous" bits ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:17:28 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: BSG (ex LRB) choose Joni (now NJC) In a message dated 7/18/2003 2:49:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, gfm@bom.gov.au writes: > If you ever liked LRB, you'd have to love BSG. Hi Gerald, & thanks for the report. I remember WAY back in '75 when my friend Smitty called me to come over & hear this new band with these incredible harmonies. He played "It's A Long Way There" a couple of times and I really thought it was fantastic. I bought their second record "Diamantina Cocktail" and made a mix tape of the best of those first two records which I probably wore out. It was great sing-along pop. AND I just loved the name "Beeb Birtles"! I thought it sounded like something out of The Hobbitt. :~) Bob NP: Stephanie Dosen, "Weak" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:39:52 -0400 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Bob wrote: << In celebration of Mandela's birthday, here's my favorite quotation from him: "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. [...]" >> I love this passage too; not to be nitpicky, more to give credit where it is due, I think it's only fair to mention that the originator of this quote is Marianne Williamson, a remarkable writer and teacher. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:41:19 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody will get too miffed by the length: "My least favourite genre of music in the entire world, even more so than opera, techno scratty music, or indie pop wuss music (with which it bears a certain degree of resemblance) is that peculiar self-pitying angst riddled singer songwriter bullsh*t which reached its peak in 1974, the twilight of cool. You know, James Taylor, Crosby Stills and Nash (Graham Nash: "being in the Hollies stunted my artistic growth" F*CK OFF!). Sitting round in mansions writing songs about how webve got to get back to the land, shagging other mewling singy-songwriters and oh how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git making lots of dosh singing about how awful it is being a whinging self pitying git. My least favourite song in the entire world, boys and girls, happens to be an example of this latter genre. And the winner isb& FOR FREE by Joni Mitchell! That there song appears on one of those 70s Joni Mitchell albums. "Ladies Of The Canyon", I even looked on a Joni Mitchell website to find that out...see the sacrifices I make for you? I had to stop looking because it was giving me a stomach ache, so I can't tell you what else is on there. What happens in this song that so invites my ire is this: La Mitchell is walking down a street and she espies a man playing solo clarinet "for free". Some say 'twas possibly the fine improv soprano saxophonist Lol Coxhill. She is rather impressed by his playing and speculates briefly about going over and "putting on a har-mon-eeeee" but then the lights turn green and she is off, back to the swish hotel from which she went shopping for jooo-ew-els. I hate this song because it is just about as hypocritically self-pitying as a song can get. She goes for a walk, sees a guy playing free, and she reflects briefly on her position as a commodity in the music biz marketplace. Thus, in this dismal song, Mitchell uses the fact of a fellow playing rather splendidly in the street as a vehicle for her own sellable self-pity, a means by which to make much more of the money she is moaning about. And did she speak to the fellow? Did she invite him to play on the record? Nope.... But the thing is, awful folky black hole of self pity romantic bullsh*t though it is, "For Free" actually begs a question about the artist's relation to the means of production and all that Ben Watson type of crap. In Mitchell's time, the record companies' control of the means of production was well-nigh absolute, to such an extent they could even distort sales figures, (such as the well known case of Trout Mask Replica which has actually sold millions). At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly to the public. This was bound up with fashionable romantic notions of bohemianism. It buttered no parsnips back then whether you agreed or disagreed with these platitudes, because in those days the mechanism was not in place to disseminate music for free. Pressing costs, manufacturing sleeves with those Joni Mitchell paintings on (and whoever told her she could paint?) etc." So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is - - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? Bob NP James Taylor, "Carolina In My Mind" 4/25/70 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:09:07 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? > > Bob > It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned. The guy is obviously some snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. Not worth the waste of paper & ink it takes to print the article (or the bandwidth, if that's the case). Mr. Cellophane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:22:12 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent quite a lot of time listening to and analyzing it. He memorized all the words. Usually when i don't like a song, i don't listen to it again. I wouldn't spend 15 paragraphs discussing it that's for sure. Maybe he's the hypocrit here... db This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:33:32 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:22:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent > quite a lot of > time listening to and analyzing it. But that's sort of the point. I mean, it's one thing to simply say, "I hate this song" and leave it at that. It's a closeout with nowhere to go. However, when he obviously has given it some thought and taken the time & effort to digest the lyric and attempt to understand what the song is saying, and states WHY he hates the song in some detail, it's a different issue imo. Like I said, you have to get past the anti-Joni content to try and get a handle on his point. And I will add that WE do the same thing on this list; we'll easily dis an Eminem/Britney/Madonna song without even having heard it! At least this dude has taken the time to familiarize himself with his subject. Bob NP: Bruce Sringsteen, "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:44:16 -0400 From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Mark wrote: << The guy is obviously some snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. >> Hear hear Mark! I think he's totally full of shit and has wilfully misinterpreted the song to shoehorn it into his half-baked theory about so-called self-pitying singer-songwriters. Lord knows I'm not averse to criticising Joni, but as far as I can see this is so far wide of the mark as to be risible. To me, the song is a thoughtful and even self-critical vignette about her privileged position and the money she earns from her art. The busker gives her (or should we say the song's narrator) pause for thought about her lifestyle. Perhaps she wishes for a moment that she could be free from the trappings and traps of music biz success; does that make it a self-pitying whinge? Only if you've already decided that everything she writes is self-pitying crap. As some wise person once observed, if the facts don't fit the theory, they must be disposed of. John B Morton? Pah! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:50:22 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:09:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: > The guy is obviously some > snot-nosed smart-ass, trying to be cute. And with this response, you've sunk to his level. ;~) I, however know you to be more astute than this, so I know that you can see beyond his juvenile behavior. Let's put it this way: What is Joni trying to say with this song? Is she slyly insulting us, her audience, when she says: "And I play if you have the money Or if you're a friend to me But the one man band By the quick lunch stand He was playing real good for free Nobody stopped to hear him Though he played so sweet and high" In other words: Here's a guy playing great stuff totally free of charge and he's ignored. Meanwhile, the same people who ignore him will PAY and go to great lengths to see me, and I'm really no better. And what of HER response: "I meant to go over and ask for a song Maybe put on a harmony" Is she putting herself down as well? How would the song be different if she HAD decided not to cross at the light and went over there and put on that harmony? Bob NP: John Wesley Harding, "Jackson Cage" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:56:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? That's exactly what I was thinking Bob. You have to get past that initial reaction..."You think Joni sucks? Well...you suck too, so there!!" I found the piece very amusing, given where he's coming from. I mean the very music he loathes the most in this entire world is the music I love the most, so we're not gonna agree. Even so, I think he let his bias against self-referential singer/songwriter music get in the way of his interpretation. Self-pity? No. Joni was not wishing she was the guy on the street corner or saying whoa is me I wish I didn't have to ride in limos. I see it more as her exploration of what happens when your art becomes your commerce - is something sacrificed? Is the horn player's music worth any less because people aren't listening - b/c he isn't paid for making it? No. Maybe it's even worth a bit more. More than anyone else in the "singer/songwriter" genre, Joni perfectly balances the ability to reflect on herself and her life without treading into self-pitying or angsty waters or sounding like she's singing something she just wrote in her diary. This guy put a label on her before giving her an honest listen. ...like we all do at some time or another as you so aptly pointed out, Bob. ; ) Jenny SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:22:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, djb@binkleybarfield.com writes: > IMHO for someone who hates this song, seems like he spent > quite a lot of > time listening to and analyzing it. But that's sort of the point. I mean, it's one thing to simply say, "I hate this song" and leave it at that. It's a closeout with nowhere to go. However, when he obviously has given it some thought and taken the time & effort to digest the lyric and attempt to understand what the song is saying, and states WHY he hates the song in some detail, it's a different issue imo. Like I said, you have to get past the anti-Joni content to try and get a handle on his point. And I will add that WE do the same thing on this list; we'll easily dis an Eminem/Britney/Madonna song without even having heard it! At least this dude has taken the time to familiarize himself with his subject. Bob NP: Bruce Sringsteen, "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" "Now I used to think that I was cool running around on fossil fuel, until I saw what I was doing was driving down the road to ruin..." JT SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:18:04 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Azeem writes: << I think it's only fair to mention that the originator of this quote is Marianne Williamson, a remarkable writer and teacher. >> I didn't know she was okay. I sorta thought of her as a lightweight guru to the stars with a cult-like following. Am I way wrong? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:48:02 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > > Azeem writes: > > << I think it's only fair to mention that the originator of this quote is > Marianne Williamson, a remarkable writer and teacher. >> > > I didn't know she was okay. I sorta thought of her as a lightweight guru to > the stars with a cult-like following. Am I way wrong? That's how I see her also, Bob, as a new age Christian-lite self-publicizer. She was the force behind the tv show "Touched by an Angel". For anyone who's never seen that show, it's extremely popular in the US, and is excellent at pulling the heartstrings and giving the "God loves you" message. When the God glow lights up the angel who's saying such kind words to that week's person in distress, zowie. I always end up crying every time I watch it, which isn't often. At the same time I get annoyed at how sappy it is. There may be (and probably is) more to her than that. A quick look at her website shows that the quote Mandela used is from her book "A Return to Love" from 1992. It is a magnificent quote, and impressive to me that a political leader would say those words. No wonder people love Mandela. He glorifies being human, not only in saying those words, but in the way he's lived his life. And, how about the way he snubbed George W. during his recent visit to Africa? Mandela just happened to be out of the country. Impressive to me that his actions match the critical words he's had for the W. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:58:43 -0400 From: dsk Subject: SMSs for madiba's 85th birthday NJC ron wrote: > > today (18 July) is madiba's (nelson mandela) 85th birthday > > some of the locals here are going for a world record attempt - the greatest > number of SMS's sent to 1 man in 1 day. > > if anyone would like to take part - the number is +27 82 158 85 > please note tho that it is a "premium" number, and sms's are more expensive - > the proceeds on all the calls will be going to the nelson mandela childrens > fund. So, Ron, an SMS is a phone message? His answering machine would hold millions of messages? (Wow, mine only has 20 minutes.) And how does the call benefit the childrens' fund? I'd like to wish Mr. Mandela a happy birthday. How much is "more expensive"? And, just to throw in another question in case those are not enough, does "Madiba" have some meaning beyond being a warm and fuzzy nickname? Does it mean something like "esteemed leader"? OK, I think that's it for my questions, in this message anyway. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. > Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some > interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". .... This guy's commentary cracked me right up. I get what he's talking about too, which is scary, but Joni still wins for me. > > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to > begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is > Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, > or what? Both. (copout answer, I know, but that's our Lady of Multiplicity for you.) ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:52:14 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: >Azeem writes: > ><< I think it's only fair to mention that the originator of this quote is >Marianne Williamson, a remarkable writer and teacher. >> > >I didn't know she was okay. I sorta thought of her as a lightweight guru to >the stars with a cult-like following. Am I way wrong? > not in my opinion. i have met the woman, atteneded a 2 day seminar, had close dealings with her. i found here to be a hard nosed fraud. She does not practice what she preaches. enjoys the power she appears to have and has little insight to people's real feelings and disregrads said feelings. > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:00:02 -0400 From: Doug Subject: MP3s (was covers king) njc The debate over MP3 sound quality is I believe often based on something other than rational thought. Unlike dubbed cassettes or noisey vinyl, the MP3 compression scheme was engineered to allow the sound to be deficient in ways that are less noticeable to the ear. I have always felt they sound about as good as a good cassette deck ( which is not saying alot, I admit ) So to answer the question once and for all, I proposed to myself a blind test. 1. Extract a song using Easy CD-DA ( I used "Car On A Hill" from C&S ) 2. Convert to MP3 with mkw at 160kbps, 256kbps, 360kbps and one at 56kbps made with Sound Forge 3. Reconvert the 4 MP3s to wave files using mkw 4. Normalize volume levels with Sound Forge 5. Burn a CD with the five tracks 6. Play the CD in random mode File sizes: Original - 31 MB 360k - 7 MB 256k - 5.6 MB 160k - 3.5 mB 56k - 1.2 MB I don't hear any significant difference in the original and three higher quality MP3s. Even the 56k didn't sound bad In my opinion, MP3s don't sound any worse than the LPs and cassettes most of us have been listening to for years. I'm listening to the music, not the technology. Feel free to disagree Doug ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:22:28 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG Great quote, Bob. Thanks for posting it. I love it when people get all emotional and passionate about something, like this guy has. There's a lot here to think about. First off, I'm always shocked by how some people hate Joni, really seem to hate her. I first realized that when reading messages somewhere around the time Joni and Kilauren found each other (not on this list, I think it was letters to the editor but don't recall the magazine) and there was one so hateful it was painful to read. The woman writer was furious at Joni and calling her so self-centered she not only gave up her child but even when she finds her child, Joni still makes it all about HERSELF! I felt bad for the writer. There was jealousy or something fierce going on inside her and Joni, a stranger, just plucked the strings. In a similar way that's happened with the guy who went to all the trouble to not only listen to Joni's song (and even give a name to the saxophonist; has anyone else ever heard of Lol Coxhill?), but also to think about it enough to get all riled up, and then take the time to write something about it. So the issues are obviously personally important to that guy. He does make it clear that it's not just Joni that he considers a "whiner", but it's interesting that he picks out that one song as the epitome of expressing self-pity. From my point of view, and without his inner baggage, he's missed the complexity of Joni's observations. She's enjoying the perks, the jewels, the limosine, the gentlemen escorts, resulting from the path she's chosen. I don't get the sense there's any "woe is me" for her in any of that. She's aware early on that music is her day job (and that painting comes first, which she's been saying for decades) and that, as with any day job that covers the rent when the passion is elsewhere, they are all about getting paid. She expresses some wistfulness at the idea of having passion for what she's spending so much time doing, and getting so much positive attention for. I have never been able to get my head around her claim that her music was just a day job for her, as though she has no passion for it. The intensity of the songs show me otherwise. However, in For Free and in other songs, and in many interviews, that is what she says. Someone long ago on this list speculated that she says "painting first" only to keep protected what is most important to her, and... maybe. My first thought, though, is that she's more straightforward than that, and her words about painting coming first have to be taken as her truth. She's always been businesslike and unromantic about her music, starting with setting up her own publishing company, and doing whatever it took to get paid for her work. Possibly incendiary comments alert: My guess is that part of the reason she married Chuck was to be able to work in the US, and that's as unromantic as a person can get. (And, yes, I know, there's the child story. I don't quite believe it. She's sharper than that when it comes to people, and I find it strange that she'd have no clue before she married him that Chuck would not be interested in helping raise her child.) As she claims, music has always been a way to make money for her, whereas so far she doesn't seem to mind doing paintings and just keeping them in storage, similar to the way the saxophonist played just because he loved doing it so much it didn't matter whether he was paid or not (or so she fantasizes), which is a completely romantic and old-fashioned idea about being an artist. So I do agree with the orginal annoyed-at-Joni writer's statements about being "... bound up with fashionable romantic notions of bohemianism." Unlike him, though, I don't see her as whining about it, but just trying to figure that all out. Debra Shea, who's so happy to see some people return from their fest-centered discussions that I've even stopped my playing to think and write about all this.... but now it's time to go out and play again... NPIMH: Joni singing "Summertime... [in the northern hemisphere] and the living is easy..." SCJoniGuy@aol.com sent us this message from a writer on another list: > > My least favourite song in the entire world, boys and girls, > happens to be an example of this latter genre. And the winner > isb& FOR FREE by Joni Mitchell! [snip] > What happens in this song that so invites my ire is this: La > Mitchell is walking down a street and she espies a man playing > solo clarinet "for free". Some say 'twas possibly the fine > improv soprano saxophonist Lol Coxhill. She is rather impressed > by his playing and speculates briefly about going over and > "putting on a har-mon-eeeee" but then the lights turn green > and she is off, back to the swish hotel from which she went > shopping for jooo-ew-els. [snip] > I hate this song because it is just about as hypocritically > self-pitying as a song can get. [snip] > At the heart of Mitchell's song is the assumption that the > dissemination of music by such capitalists, who care not a > jot for art, is somehow less noble than giving it away directly > to the public. This was bound up with fashionable romantic > notions of bohemianism. ... and then our Bob asks: > > So howzabout it? I guess perhaps the question to begin with is > - does this guy interpret the song correctly? Is Joni being > ironic in her lyric, or bemoaning her own celebrity, or what? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:25:27 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? I always heard a self-criticism in the penultimate line "I heard his refrain as the signal changed," as if her contemplation of the situation lasted only as long as the red light. He sounded pretty good, but hey, the signal changed, and I gotta push on in the life I've chosen. At 10:50 AM 7/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >And what of HER response: >"I meant to go over and ask for a song >Maybe put on a harmony" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:50:42 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: eastmountainsouth NJC Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > > They just played their new album in its entirety on WFUV in NY tonight. Also, > they will be appearing at a venue in NYC next week ("tues and Wed) - maybe > something like Joie's Bar - again, forgive my parochial ignorance of the NY > scene. Did you like what you heard? I've only heard one of their songs and it didn't grab me because the lyrics were too predictable. I did like the sound of it, though. (I'm definitely a lyrics-before-music person.) They're going to be at Joe's Pub, which is near Astor Place, next week. It's part of the Public Theater so if you need more info, a search on that will find Joe's Pub. The Tuesday show is at 7:30 and the Wednesday one starts at 9:30. It's a wonderful place to see performers, only 180 seats and different levels so everyone has a good view, and it's a very relaxed and friendly atmosphere. Jonatha Brooke is going to be there the first week of August. > so, should I try to go see them ? I take Kate's enthusiasm as an excellent endorsement, and am going to try to get to the later show. If you or anyone else decides to go, please let me know. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:50:20 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: july 18!!!!!!! NJC love mandela but... TODAY'S LORI FYE'S BIRTHDAY!!!! and what's an SMS? SAY H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y AND GLORIFY LORI FYE! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:19:06 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: July 18!!!!!!! NJC Happy Birthday Lori!!!!!!!!! Hope you have a great one! love donna >>> "Wally Kairuz" 7/18/2003 12:50:20 PM >>> love mandela but... TODAY'S LORI FYE'S BIRTHDAY!!!! and what's an SMS? SAY H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y AND GLORIFY LORI FYE! This message has been scanned by the E250. This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:08:37 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Woman of Heart and Mind I just read the full list of Emmy nominees, and WOHAM is up for two nominations. Sound Editing for Nonfiction Programming and Sound Mixing for Nonfiction Programming Go Joni, Go Joni, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:44:47 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: Re: MP3s (was covers king) njc I agree that at compression levels like 256k or 360 very few ears other than maybe joni's and mozarts would notice. I too have done experiments similar to yours. The point imbedded in my prior post is that the only way to get 40+ disks down to 4 is to compress at 160 or 56 in which case it is noticeable, at least to me and others I know. So, to each their own. Those who want compression with fewer disks can go that route and others like me can go the uncompressed route, as long as, there are some uncompressed version floating around. have a nice weekend Eric - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" To: "JMDL" Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: MP3s (was covers king) njc > The debate over MP3 sound quality is I believe often based on > something other than rational thought. Unlike dubbed cassettes or noisey > vinyl, > the MP3 compression scheme was engineered to allow the sound to be > deficient in ways that are less noticeable to the ear. > I have always felt they sound about as good as a good cassette deck ( > which is not saying alot, I admit ) > So to answer the question once and for all, I proposed to myself a blind > test. > > 1. Extract a song using Easy CD-DA ( I used "Car On A Hill" from C&S ) > 2. Convert to MP3 with mkw at 160kbps, 256kbps, 360kbps and one at > 56kbps made with Sound Forge > 3. Reconvert the 4 MP3s to wave files using mkw > 4. Normalize volume levels with Sound Forge > 5. Burn a CD with the five tracks > 6. Play the CD in random mode > > File sizes: > Original - 31 MB > 360k - 7 MB > 256k - 5.6 MB > 160k - 3.5 mB > 56k - 1.2 MB > > I don't hear any significant difference in the original and three higher > quality MP3s. Even the 56k didn't sound bad > In my opinion, MP3s don't sound any worse than the LPs and cassettes > most of us have been listening to for years. > I'm listening to the music, not the technology. > > Feel free to disagree > > Doug ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:21:26 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Cindy and Bryan welcome the tardy one Isn't it funny how completely exhausted adults look like they're at peace? ** CONGRATULATIONS ** Cindy & Bryan! Did you name Zoe after the President's daughter on "The West Wing"? Jim > From: Bryan Thomas - Soul Rock [mailto:soulrock@bryanthomas.com] > The tardy one is finally here. Zoe Ferrari Thomas arrived (15 > days late) with > eyes wide open Thursday, July 17 at 3:46 p.m, weighing in at 6 > lbs 7 oz. Mom > Cindy is recovering well from a C-section and should be home from > the hospital > by Monday. Proud papa Bryan has already posted a page of pics at > http://www.bryanthomas.com/zoe. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:45:31 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC In a message dated 18/07/2003 16:19:41 GMT Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: > I didn't know she was okay. I sorta thought of her as a lightweight guru to > > the stars with a cult-like following. Am I way wrong? > > I wouldn't say you're wrong at all Bob, in that I don't know enough about her. I've heard a tape of one of her lectures, and it was quite powerful in places, although a bit full-on with the God stuff for my liking. And Colin, fair dos, I haven't met her and can't comment on her as a person. Just note that I chose my word carefully, saying she is "remarkable"! She is certainly that, having a real charisma. And as Debra pointed out, that passage that Nelson Mandela quoted is exceedingly powerful stuff - anyone who came up with that can't be all bad. My main point in mentioning her is that so many people assume Mandela wrote the words himself, and are sometimes interested to hear of their actual provenance. I've actually got a book by Jean Hardy, "Psychology of the Soul", which quotes that passage and attributes it to Mandela. They repeated the error in the second edition, but spotted it before it went out to shops, meaning that some poor buggers at the publishers had to put a correction sticker into every single copy! Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:52:32 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: Re: madiba's 85th birthday NJC AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > Just note that I >chose my word carefully, saying she is "remarkable"! > Oh, what she writes is excellent, helpful, , and an explanation/extension(?) of The Course In Miracles. People often teach what they need to learn. She is very good at writing it and at speaking it(tho not as good as the writing it). As the saying goes, She can talk the Talk but not Walk the Walk. At least she couldn't 8 years ago. People change. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:55:41 +0100 From: tantra-apso Subject: touched by an angel njc Debra-I too wathc this series when it is on and I remember to. Gald you mentioned it otherwise i would not have! Yes it is syruppy but it has a message, a good one, and it works. Americans are very good at this sort of tv. Snetimental and overblown smaltz but hard to resist! Glad you cleared up the question i ahve wondered-what this somehting to do with Marrianne Williamson. Martha Williamson is credited in the credits. I like monica and Delta whatsit and the angel of death guy is rather attractive.... bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:08:50 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: t-shirts -- njc There's a new T-shirt in Milwaukee that says, "Don't Whack Our Wiener," inspired by the recent wiener mascot abuse incident! Kerry - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:35 PM Subject: t-shirts -- njc > Seen on a t-shirt tonight outside Fenway Park during a Red Sox game: > > ANY TEAM CAN HAVE A BAD CENTURY > > --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:14:34 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: t-shirts -- njc In a message dated 18/07/2003 22:06:45 GMT Daylight Time, myrtlmoo@ticon.net writes: > There's a new T-shirt in Milwaukee that says, "Don't Whack Our Wiener," > inspired by the recent wiener mascot abuse incident! > > Risque stuff - and contrary to the recent much-publicised (in the UK anyway) findings of a survey that suggested that, erm, how to put this, getting jiggy with oneself has major health benefits for those of a male persuasion. Enough of this filth anyway... Azeem in London NP: Tori Amos - Scarlet's Walk (I think this might be her best album yet) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:24:51 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG In a message dated 18/07/2003 18:19:46 GMT Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << So the issues are obviously personally important to that guy. He does make it clear that it's not just Joni that he considers a "whiner", but it's interesting that he picks out that one song as the epitome of expressing self-pity. >> It seems almost wilfully perverse to choose this song to illustrate his thesis, when there are other songs that would seem to fit into it much more readily - - not that I agree with his basic premise anyway, I hasten to add. Anyone looking to denigrate self-pitying songs and singers should head for straight for the Diane Warren/Michael Bolton oeuvre, of which the very title "How Am I Supposed To Live Without You?" is the epitome. It reminds me of a piece in one of the film mags a while ago, where the ed. had decided to stick the knife into Clint Eastwood. Well, you would think there was plenty of ammo for anyone looking for it: liberals could decontruct the dodgy subtext of Dirty Harry et seq, while afficionados of rubbish films could dredge up The Gauntlet and Firefox, two of the most wretched cinematic dogs ever to be banished to the kennel. But no, the writer went for... Unforgiven! The attempted hatchet job failed miserably, of course, as the writer just didn't have a leg to stand on. Still, I'm sure he received his fee nonetheless. Azeem in London NP: still Tori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:31:23 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? njc Joni, a hypocrite? Who knows? Aren't we all a bit hypocritical at times? Part of the human condition? mack np: olivia newton-john----magic ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:46:40 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: Sharon Isbin's tribute to Rosalyn Tureck - njc dear list: rosalyn tureck, who was one of the most famous interpreters of bach's keyboard music, died at home last night. there was a tribute on at mannes college in new york, and this statement was read there. we later found out that tureck died about 10 minutes after the tribute ended. patrick npimh - bach lute suites on guitar Sharon Isbin Tribute to Rosalyn Tureck -- July 17, 2003 I was invited to participate in today's tribute to my dear friend and mentor, Rosalyn Tureck, but performance obligations out of town prevent me from being able to be in New York. Michael Charry has kindly offered to read my message aloud instead. Rosalyn Tureck has been the most important musical mentor of my life. I am grateful for the gift she has given me which has guided me in every aspect of my artistic development. In her own words, as I thanked her yet again last week, she said: "I gave you everything I had." How true. And how fortunate I am. I first met Rosalyn in 1977. I was a student at Yale University completing my B.A. degree and about to begin my Masters degree there. I called her up to see if she would take me on as a student. She was intrigued with the idea of working with a guitarist on the Bach Lute Suites, especially given the musical/historical relationship between the lute and the harpsichord. I was thrilled since I'd not had a regular teacher since the age of 16, other than occasional summer master classes. After our first lesson, she agreed to take me on as a student. My lessons with her continued over a ten-year period. During this time, we edited all the Bach Lute Suites, published two of them in landmark editions for G. Schirmer, and I recorded the complete suites for Virgin Classics/EMI in 1988, a recording that made history as the first of this repertoire to incorporate baroque performance practice traditions. This recording is still in print 14 years later. Our first project was Suite BWV996. I remember going to each lesson thinking we'd soon move on to the next, only to discover that instead we would move on the next level of the same suite. Facing new challenges of embellishment, contrapuntal fingering, articulation, phrasing, dynamics, tempo, I learned quickly to banish the word "impossible" from my vocabulary. We spent one year working on BWV996, exclusively. When I performed it in my New York debut recital at Alice Tully Hall in the spring of 1979, Rosalyn was proudly in attendence. We've spent some marvelous hours together these last weeks, talking about death, love, life, music, animals...as I held her precious hands. It's remarkable how those hands still look so young. Filled with the vibrancy of music, they never aged. I told her how privileged I felt to be with her at her side in these last days. She answered: "You are." The feeling of love and appreciation is mutual, and she has often let me know this. I am honored to be the daughter she never had. I told her how the universe would welcome her with love and open arms, since she had given so much to so many hundreds of thousands of people.... That she would be enveloped by love. She responded that love is the most important thing, and as well, being surrounded now by her friends. In a visit at the hospital, I brought along a new recording of mine of baroque concerti just out which included a transcription she'd made with me last October of the Adagio from Bach's F minor keyboard concerto. The poignancy of the moment was overwhelming to me. Here lying next to me, nearly lifeless in a hospital bed, was the most important mentor in my life, listening with me to what represents the gift of her teaching some 26 years later. The spell of my misery was momentarily broken when she bolted up and exclaimed, "the G, where is the G, I can't hear the G!" Ah, it was the good old Dr. Tureck, once again, for a time. I am profoundly honored to know her, to have studied with her, to have her as a friend, to love her. May she be blessed by all the spirits in this world and the next privileged enough to meet her. Sharon Isbin July 16, 2003 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Cindy and Bryan welcome the tardy one njc People say this all the time about all babies, but that child is absolutely flawless. I don't think I've seen such a beautiful newborn in ages! Congratulations Bryan and Cindy (and Zoe too.) --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > ** CONGRATULATIONS ** > > Cindy & Bryan! Did you name Zoe after the > President's daughter on "The West > Wing"? > > Jim > > > From: Bryan Thomas - Soul Rock > [mailto:soulrock@bryanthomas.com] > > The tardy one is finally here. Zoe Ferrari Thomas > arrived (15 > > days late) with > > eyes wide open Thursday, July 17 at 3:46 p.m, > weighing in at 6 > > lbs 7 oz. Mom > > Cindy is recovering well from a C-section and > should be home from > > the hospital > > by Monday. Proud papa Bryan has already posted a > page of pics at > > http://www.bryanthomas.com/zoe. ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:49:43 +0200 From: =?utf-8?Q?Emiliano_Pati=C3=B1o?= Subject: Re: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: "For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite? LONG > All disrespect to Joni aside, this writer (Colin B. Morton writing > on the Captain Beefheart website) makes some interesting points > regarding Joni's decision in the song "For Free". This is a cut > & paste and is sorta long, but it's all JC so hopefully nobody > will get too miffed by the length: > > "My least favourite genre of music... Hi, JMDLers! Grrrr....... You should know by know you Colin Morton and dear Bob (I love that quotes *you* pick...this almost peaks that In France They Kiss On MainStreet one!) I REALLY get MAD DOG if some of you unpiously touch "For Free": Really, reading an e-mail subject like ""For Free" -> Joni as hypocrite" returning home from holidays is quite a hard experience (I love that call-up signs): First, I agree with you, Mack, hypocrytical (cynical is most attacking) attitude is indeed part of human condition: Everyone of us must get hypocritical from time to time, BUT in a song? in this godly piece of life? In my humble opinion, hypocritical means something like "lying about one self, in order to excuse or even trying to rise at other's level (that fucking competition again) Not one but a really biased guy (BTW: what "indie pop wuss nusic" means? I got to know to hear it now! (maybe some first Ani, Shawn, our Kate, and Corry, and Stryngs...) noone in his senses's power, except driven by bad faith could disrepute For Free as Hypocritical! Anyone could indeed aim at this Song because its simple and archaic music (your friend Emi gets with it something... like Amadeus!) and its lyrics so gracefully depicting some moment at an Artist's Life, some minutes of doubt; so GRACEfully painting (excuse my repeating) that any listener find his/herself at one of these moments of glorious de'ja' vu after hearing such a Classic! I digress... Joni is not at all being hypocritical in "For Free": (I don't recall our SIQOMB false, well, maybe some BMR :-) Caressingly balancing (as this waltz does) the street musician that Plays Real Good For Free and the ShowBiz singer with her jeeeeeewels, her velvet curtains and her well-looking men (funny her hesitating through years) is by no means lying or trying to lie at herself: she's not redeeming her after that "brief encounter", not playing the hero or punk hero role in it: remember: it's a song: she could paint herself (after all, it was LOTC, she wasn't a famous singer still) stopping to talk to that man, have a real nice interaction and so and so and so on I can understand that speech's author's rage considering For Free's possible attitude as "I'm a well paid star but I have a taste for Real Good things in life, man!" placing myself on that beautiful-losers'n authentic-cool-trended shoes: "Naturally, I'm a Captain Beefheart fan: that song not deals with me..." (Bob, you set the point "is she slyly _and with a view from the top_ insulting us, her audience?" though you cut before the crucial line "They knew he had never Been on their t.v. So they passed his music by") Well, I must cut now (is somebody still there?), I find it rather *self-criticism* like Debra said. Good night to You All! Emiliano NP: (always choosing special goodbyes:) For Free, PBS special, broadcasted november '69, Newport Folk Festival? (Doug, I'm with you, I love music, MP3 music too) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #363 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)