From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #352 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 8 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 352 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni w/ Laura Nyro ["kakki" ] Re: Joni w/ Laura Nyro, and Judee Sill and Today's artists ["o" ] Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' ["o" ] Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: joni vs. laura ["Garret" ] RE: joni vs. laura and Maddonna too ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: Colin NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Raffle! NJC ["Maggie McNally" ] Damien Rice/Yes at Glastonbury (NJC) [ReckersL@ebrd.com] Joni vs. Laura [noble@taosnet.com] 22 njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Joni w/ Laura Nyro ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Joni w/ Laura Nyro ["Richard Flynn" ] RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' ["Heather" ] Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' ["o" Subject: Re: Joni w/ Laura Nyro Welcome to the list Richard! What coincidence - my best childhood friend is the same age as you and also was a precocious musician at age 8 heavily into the artists you mentioned (especially the Canadian ones). She also knew about Joni long before the first album and I still give her all the credit for introducing me to Joni's music from before the "official" beginning. The first time I saw the Song to a Seagull album I just stared at it transfixed and held it in my hands as if it were the holy grail. LOL How wonderful that your parents were always so supportive of you. Do you still have that Martin D-28?! Wow! A friend offered to sell me one in 1971 for $1,700 which was, of course, way too steep for me but I wished I would have siphoned off some student loan money to buy it considering what they are worth today. ;-) Joni has provided the soundtrack to so many of our lives. For The Roses is especially "my" album, too. Thanks for sharing your background stories! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 09:17:21 +0100 From: "o" Subject: Re: Joni w/ Laura Nyro, and Judee Sill and Today's artists That's very impressive, I've not seen Joni once (my only chance would have been the 98 tour), and Laura died just before I discovered her. I can't think of any artists these days who would compare... of course I'm always a bit sceptical about my peers, maybe I would've hated Joni and Laura if they'd been my contemporaries! Actually something I've been wondering recently - does anyone think that by writing confessionally through much of her career Joni unwittingly validated the current trend for shoe-gazing, self-obsessed whiners? I mean obviously there are a wider range of factors at work, but 'Blue' was so influential that I can't help wondering if a lot of people (alanis morisette etc) ignored the art in it and just thought "Oh listen, she's singing her diary. I'll do that too!" I also just started looking into the music of Judee Sill - anyone heard of her? She was on Reprise in the 70s, only did two albums, had a very hard knock life by the sound of it (she's like a female Nick Drake in that sense), but her music and lyrics are outstanding from what I've heard. o ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:45:50 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura Owen wrote: > However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than Joni's, I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into something brand new and distinctly her own. >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. That's a great way to describe it. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:03:45 +0100 From: "o" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' That's exaclty what I meant, in fact I read a quite somewhere that said something like "Laura influenced a lot of people, but no-one seemed to have influenced her". Obviously there are influences in her music, but it was so against 'pop' music in a lot of ways... having said that, I think Laura was allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! This is what the industry doesn't get anymore - there has been lots of hand-wringing in the UK recently about the "state of music", and the reason the charts are full of crap is because the companies now go after the trend, the quick-hit, and don't look recognise or care about real talent anymore. They don't have a clue that all artists (and hence good long-term investments) need support to grow and experiment. But then maybe they see artists as trouble, artists make albums like 'Mingus'! Of course, in the 60s and 70s the industry was practically made up of music fans who happened to have good business sense, now it's full of accountants who wouldn't know art if it screamed at them like Laura Nyro at the end of 'Tom Cat Goodby'!! o >Owen wrote: >> However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than Joni's, >I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's >music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into something brand new and distinctly her own. >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. That's a great way to describe it. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 05:16:41 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura NJC I'm ashamed to admit that I have nothing of Laura's. Months ago she was discussed on the list and I went as far to going to Best Buy the next day to make a purchase and DID NOT. What's with me? (don't answer that) But all this talk..wonderful writing...and the dissection of her music..makes me think that I'm really missing out. Soon to change!! Thanks.. Bree > Laura's music is by >turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not >try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into >something brand new and distinctly her own. > > >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. > >That's a great way to describe it. > >Kakki _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 06:05:31 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' In a message dated 08/07/2003 10:04:26 GMT Daylight Time, owen.duff@ntlworld.com writes: << I think Laura was allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! >> I think you're spot on there, Owen. It would never happen nowadays, although there is a slightly more recent example of a record company giving a lot of time and space to develop an artist because they knew she had the talent: Kate Bush. Her early story is even more remarkable in a way, as unlike Joni & Laura, who had both had songs covered by the time their first albums appeared, Kate had not - indeed very few people have even attempted her songs as they are so damn idiosyncratic, and rely on her extraordinary voice and charisma to carry off. I remember Pat Benatar made a plucky but preposterous stab at covering Wuthering Heights; I had to admire her chutzpah, but the result was ghastly. Anyway, I digress. Joni and Laura are both in my top half-dozen singer-songwriter pantheon, of either sex. Both are unique, and I wouldn't want to label one as greater or less great than the other. However, to me there are clear areas of differing strength, one obvious one being Joni's artistic longevity. Joni's peak period (as I see it at any rate) spanned an entire decade, whereas Laura's spanned about three years. Laura's flame may not have burned as long, but it burned just as fiercely, perhaps more so. For one area in which Laura had a clear edge for me was the sheer burning passion in her singing. Just listen to Laura's soulful wail on the line "Oh you'd better hide your heart" on Eli's Coming, and it is plain that she had something Joni would never have. And I get goose pimples just thinking about the way Laura sings Poverty Train. Of course this absolutely doesn't mean Joni lacked soul. Her ability to capture the strongest emotions, for example on Blue, was unparallelled. Joni had an almost forensic ability to express really complex thoughts and emotions in words and music, which for me means she is one of the most cerebral songwriters ever. Nobody could accuse Laura of being cerebral - as someone has already mentioned, Laura's songs tend to be more impressionistic, just as effective in a different way. As to how quick they were off the blocks, I'm struck by a curiosity. Although their debut albums are very roughly comparable in terms of maturity, with Joni's possibly being a bit more realised than Laura's, after that Laura absolutely sprinted ahead: I've never been a great fan of Clouds or Ladies of the Canyon, and Joni herself has more or less dismissed them as juvenalia. Laura's second and third albums, by big, big contrast, were Eli & The 13th Confession and New York Tendaberry, fully formed masterpieces. Then there is a convergence again, with both producing all-time classics as number 4: Blue and Christmas & The Beads Of Sweat. After that, Joni continued to grow and produce work of unprecedented brilliance, whereas I think Laura's most ardent fans would accept that she plateaued with that trilogy. That's my twopenn'orth, Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:51:51 +0100 From: "Garret" Subject: RE: joni vs. laura Do u realise what fits of rage-tinted jealousy you have just sent throught the list? eh?? And thanks for all the details:-) Welcome to the list; enjoy the ride Richard. GARRET np Patti Smith, Piece Of My Heart (live) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:19:54 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: RE: joni vs. laura and Maddonna too In the Laura Nyro biography, it says that Joni went backstage to great Laura when Laura played her comback shows in either 88' or 89' in Los Angeles as part of her tour. The book didn't say what they said or if they got along, I guess only JOni knows what was said.. probably something like: JONi: "Hey Laura, (Takes a puff) Loved the show" LAURA: "Thanks Joni" JONI: "Too bad you didn't play 'the Cat Song", but I liked that song about the Japanese restaurant" LAURA: THanks JONI. SCENE! Who knows.. i bet it was more colorful than that though. The part of the book I liked was during that tour, in California, Madonna, then Boyfriend Warren Beatty, and Sandra Bernhardt went to a Laura Nyro Show. I wonder what Madonna thought. Probably, "Gosh, she really needs some dancers. Not edgy enough" The book does say that Sandra Bernhardt went on and on about Laura, her music and what it meant to her. Beatty, obviously one who didnt really 'get' or like the music made the comment, "Now THAT's a Great song!!" after Laura started playing Wedding Bell Blues. Blair :) > --- Richard Flynn wrote: > >I'm new here, but two of my most sublime concert > > experiences were Joni in > > '68 at the Cellar Door in Washington & Laura Nyro, > > same 300 seat club a > > couple of years later. > > > >Wow! Lucky you! Welcome to the list. > >I don't suppose anyone knows whether or not Joni and >Laura ever met (?) I believe one of Joni's top picks >(was it 12? whatever - some number!) was Laura's >"Captain for dark mornings" (or was it "Captain St >Lucifer"?) > >Yes indeed. How do you compare these two women? Both >so different and each one completely unique. > > >===== >Catherine >Toronto > >______________________________________________________________________ >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:32:06 -0400 From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Colin NJC > so the years spin by > and now our love is twenty two Awwwwwwwww...Happy Anniversary Colin and John! I'm holding youse guys up as my role model! Congratulations! MG - coming up for a brief post from newlywed-hood. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:34:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "walterphil" Subject: joni and laura laura has always had a slight edge for me but mainly because she is all but forgotten by most people and music books (at least until most recently) i could never actually choose between the two. impossible. but which laura are we comparing? which joni? the teenage laura full of passion and conviction pumping out "and when i die" and "stoney end?" the fragile hippie joni spinning musical webs so beautifully ala "night in the city" and "song to a seagull?" scarey drug enhanced laura sreaming "tomcat goodbye." hip rockin joni casually dropping "this flight tonight" or "raised on robbery." nostalgic laura dreamin about being a vandella or a shirelle or carole king. or a looking back joni doin the rightous brothers/elvis/carole king. laura screaming about "christmas in my soul" (behind a minor key jingle bells.) joni skating down her depressin' river (behind a minor key jingle bells.) pregnant full voiced laura singing from a new heart on "nested." joni experimenting with synths and new wave producers. laura talking to trees and crying by the washing machine. joni taking limos with a diamond snake around her arm. joni bitter against the music business reciting over a lush orchestra. laura plainly and simply giving her last performances at the bottom line. as was so perfectly stated before "who, the frig, would want to?" it reminds me of being a dorky kid in highschool arguing with my equally dorky hippie friend (in gym class yet!!) who was the better-- joan baez or judy collins? hahahahahahahahahaha excuse me, but ain't that rich? or even earlier on this list, comparing judy to joni. its irritating because it's all good. it's all good. i am so grateful for having so much music to cherish. i'm so sad that laura died so young. and will be equally as devastated if joni doesn't record anymore. xxx walt The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:42:59 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Colin NJC Congrats Mary Grace!!!! and Congrats John and Catman!!! Wishing the all of you all the best life has to offer. ~rosie your jersey pal In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:23:55 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: Raffle! NJC The Jonifest is fast approaching, and I wanted to remind you of one more exciting piece of the weekend action - the RAFFLE! Let me whet your appetite for all things Joni - directly related or indirectly - by giving you a glimpse of just a few of the items that will be offered at our Saturday evening raffle. Remember, these are just a few of the items that have thus far been donated by your fellows of the JMDL community: 1.. Gold Mine Magazine, 2/17/95, with a long, wonderful article 2.. Joni Mitchell Songbook, Complete, Volume Number 1, 1966-1970 3.. Turbulent Indigo poster 4.. 2002 New England Jonifest at Full Moon coffee mugs - very few are left! 5.. Needle-point work by Les Ross inspired by images Paprika Plains - entitled 'and the turquoise river snaking'. It'll be colored appropriately / consistent with the album sleeve with some additional color invention by him. It will measure approximately 8 by 5 inches with a double card mount making it up to about 12 by 9. 6.. Signed and framed Sir Edmund Hillary NZ dollar - not Joni in the least, except that it comes from darling Hell. This is the 50th anniversary of Sir Hillary's climb and a rare opportunity to possess something that has been in the hands of one of the 20th centuries greats - so that alone makes it appropriate for Jonifest. Hell will have made it even more special in its packaging. 7.. California Rock book 8.. cds generously donated by our many of our more talented members 9.. and you know, there may be (are) more!!! Alex and I will be hawking tickets at the cost of $1 US each, or $5 US for six. This money will go to settling the 'fest debt or, if the good news holds and we make our numbers, to help with the expenses of our cyber community. I'll bet that for most of us it was either or both of the web sites - JoniMitchell.com and JMDL.com that first enlightened us to the reality that we were not alone in our passion for the music, words, art and philosophy of Joni Mitchell, so please, do plan on being as generous as you can. Know, too, that we are still gratefully accepting your donations of raffle items - you can mail them to Ashara or plan on bringing them with you. They will all be on display Thursday when we arrive through Saturday when we will have a "cocktail hour" and raffle drawing in the barn (I think) prior to dinner. If you are not going to the 'fest [:-(((] and still wish to contribute, you can mail your raffle items to Ashara at: Ashara Productions, LLC 40 Parsonage Lane Topsfield, MA 01983 USA If you are just dying to get a piece of the raffle action, email someone you know who is coming and make your arrangements with them. You don't want to miss out on the fun! I'm going back on vacation, so if you email me you'll get a big ole silence. Be well everyone...counting the days until we meet again. Best, Maggie Cambridge, USA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:23:57 +0100 From: ReckersL@ebrd.com Subject: Damien Rice/Yes at Glastonbury (NJC) I've been back for a week now, but have not had time to post a proper review. So I'll just give you a few small observations that pick up on names discussed here before. Main one: Damien Rice. Oh yes, he was quite a revelation, I know now why some of you were going so wild over him! I must rush out and get his CD as fast as I can! I can't remember whether anyone mentioned the resemblance in his style with Jeff Buckley but to me this was quite obvious. There was this eery moment during the concert when he suddenly went into the guitar solo of Cohen's "Halleluia", then he sang several lines of the song in EXACTLY the way Jeff did on his Grace album. It gave me the goosebumps, I first felt very happy and then very sad, it was the most emotional moment of the whole festival for me. I did not hear Damien say it and if he didn't then I think he was wrong: he should have said "this is a tribute to Jeff Buckley" - I hope he did. Anyway the audience roared, I think most of them got it. Someone in the same vein is the British Tom McRae. I knew his first album, expected him to be quite good, but was really bowled over by his stage presence, much more than expected. Great songs, strong meaningful lyrics, powerful delivery... what can I say? Catch him if you can! (He's got a new album out but I haven't heard it yet.) And yes, I saw Yes! When they first came on it seemed a bit bombastic, and they took a while to warm up, but they were pretty good once they got going properly. It was good to hear songs again that I had forgotten for 30 years, to find they were still intact somewhere in a locked away section of my memory! "I See All Those Good People Turn Their Head These Days So Satisfied I'm On My Way" - oh Yes! Paz, there was no chance I could have said hello from you to the sound guy, because the place was absolutely PACKED! I saw and heard so many others. Too many to mention. I literally walked MILES from one stage to another and back again, sometimes to find I had just missed one act or sometimes to hear someone I had not planned on hearing, and finding they were very good. The jazz saxophonist Andy Shepard was brilliant, playing his piece Nocturnal Tourist. Ideal to lie in the grass by, with eyes closed and enjoy! I was also really impressed with Macy Gray whom I hadn't planned on seeing. But I walked past the stage where she was playing and stayed on quite a while, she was so infectious! OK, this is it. If you'd like to find out more, ask me at Jonifest! Lieve. ______________________________________________________________ This message may contain privileged information. If you have received this message by mistake, please keep it confidential and return it to the sender. Although we have taken steps to minimise the risk of transmitting software viruses, the EBRD accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by computer viruses and would advise you to carry out your own virus checks. The contents of this e-mail do not necessarily represent the views of the EBRD. ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 11:30:16 -0700 From: noble@taosnet.com Subject: Joni vs. Laura Suffice it to say Joni is a woman of heart and mind and Laura a woman of heart and soul! Both equally AWESOME! Greetings from Tucker in Taos, New Mexico where the Forest Fire RAGES ON! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:16:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: 22 njc colin & john!!! major congrats to you both! we should all be so lucky to have such longlasting love in our lives... its spooky to me that it is was your anniversary yesterday because yesterday you & john were very present in my thoughts for no reason at all (that i was aware of)... >so the years spin by and now our love is twenty two though our dreams have gained some grandeur coming true there'll be new dreams, better dreams, and plenty before the last revolving year is through< kate www.katebennett.com [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of clip_image002.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 12:16:35 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni w/ Laura Nyro richard, what a great story! i'm amazed at your early awareness...how did you get word of joni's album two years prior to its release? tell more! >I was a precocious folkie. I started playing guitar at age 8 (in 1963)and grew from the Kingston Trio to Peter Paul and Mary to Bob Dylan to Ian& Sylvia, Buffy Sainte Marie, Eric Andersen, Tom Rush, etc. so I was anticipating Joni's first album for two years from the age of 11 till the age of 13 when "Song for a Seagull/Joni Mitchell" was first released. I wrote to an address in _Sing Out_ Magazine for lead sheets and chords to her songs & never heard back.< kate www.katebennett.com [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of clip_image002.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:07:07 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni w/ Laura Nyro Kate, As I said, I was a young folkie. I just knew her songs from other people's recordings of them and then since she was so legendary, there was an ad in Sing Out magazines offering lead sheets of her songs for sale. When I think back on this childhood as a young folksinger (I'm now a college professor and only an amateur folksinger) one pongnant memory I have is that my mother (who died in 1990)loved "Circle Game" and would ask me to play it & sing it for her when I was 11 and 12, which I did, but it always made her cry. Anyway, I kept my ear to the ground & took the bus to the record store to get "Song for a Seagull/Joni Mitchell" on the day of its release. Alas, the D-28 was stolen in 1973, but replaced with a D-35 I still play. Richard Flynn Professor Dept. of Literature and Philosophy Georgia Southern University Statesboro, GA 30460-8023 E-mail: rflynn@gasou.edu Home page: http://www.gasou.edu/~rflynn - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Kate Bennett Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 3:17 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Joni w/ Laura Nyro richard, what a great story! i'm amazed at your early awareness...how did you get word of joni's album two years prior to its release? tell more! >I was a precocious folkie. I started playing guitar at age 8 (in 1963)and grew from the Kingston Trio to Peter Paul and Mary to Bob Dylan to Ian& Sylvia, Buffy Sainte Marie, Eric Andersen, Tom Rush, etc. so I was anticipating Joni's first album for two years from the age of 11 till the age of 13 when "Song for a Seagull/Joni Mitchell" was first released. I wrote to an address in _Sing Out_ Magazine for lead sheets and chords to her songs & never heard back.< kate www.katebennett.com [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of clip_image002.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:11:23 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' If you want a good read of Laura's life, check out "Soul Picnic" by Michele Kort. I found it quite interesting since I'm a Laura Nyro fan. Best- Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of o Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:04 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' That's exaclty what I meant, in fact I read a quite somewhere that said something like "Laura influenced a lot of people, but no-one seemed to have influenced her". Obviously there are influences in her music, but it was so against 'pop' music in a lot of ways... having said that, I think Laura was allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! This is what the industry doesn't get anymore - there has been lots of hand-wringing in the UK recently about the "state of music", and the reason the charts are full of crap is because the companies now go after the trend, the quick-hit, and don't look recognise or care about real talent anymore. They don't have a clue that all artists (and hence good long-term investments) need support to grow and experiment. But then maybe they see artists as trouble, artists make albums like 'Mingus'! Of course, in the 60s and 70s the industry was practically made up of music fans who happened to have good business sense, now it's full of accountants who wouldn't know art if it screamed at them like Laura Nyro at the end of 'Tom Cat Goodby'!! o >Owen wrote: >> However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than Joni's, >I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's >music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into something brand new and distinctly her own. >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. That's a great way to describe it. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Judee Sill njc --- o wrote: > I also just started looking into the music of Judee > Sill - anyone heard of > her? She was on Reprise in the 70s, only did two > albums, had a very hard > knock life by the sound of it (she's like a female > Nick Drake in that > sense), but her music and lyrics are outstanding > from what I've heard. Hey, Owen, if you haven't already done it, check out this website - this guy named, wouldn't you know it, BOB!!! has a website where he has posted a whole bunch of mp3s of Judee's demoes and live performances: http://www.webnoir.com/bob/music/ I had heard of her before but kind of forgot about her until I heard Shawn Colvin singing, "There's a rugged road" and then I just had to find out who wrote it (and get the guitar chords for it and all the words without having to transcribe from the disc) and then when I found this site, I realized I was also familiar with "Jesus was a crossmaker." ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 23:42:49 +0100 From: "o" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' Hi Heather - I want to read that book, but haven't seen it in a bookshop yet (I haven't gone out of my way to find it though). I'd be very interested to hear what Laura thought of Joni - like did she at all resent her for her stardom? I know Joni is guarded in her praise for Laura, but you can tell she very much admired her, I hope Laura knew that in her lifetime. O - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather" To: "o" ; Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > If you want a good read of Laura's life, check out "Soul Picnic" by Michele > Kort. I found it quite interesting since I'm a Laura Nyro fan. > > Best- > Heather > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of o > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:04 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > > > That's exaclty what I meant, in fact I read a quite somewhere that said > something like "Laura influenced a lot of people, but no-one seemed to have > influenced her". Obviously there are influences in her music, but it was so > against 'pop' music in a lot of ways... having said that, I think Laura was > allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was > indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record > company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the > budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! This is > what the industry doesn't get anymore - there has been lots of hand-wringing > in the UK recently about the "state of music", and the reason the charts are > full of crap is because the companies now go after the trend, the quick-hit, > and don't look recognise or care about real talent anymore. They don't have > a clue that all artists (and hence good long-term investments) need support > to grow and experiment. But then maybe they see artists as trouble, artists > make albums like 'Mingus'! Of course, in the 60s and 70s the industry was > practically made up of music fans who happened to have good business sense, > now it's full of accountants who wouldn't know art if it screamed at them > like Laura Nyro at the end of 'Tom Cat Goodby'!! > o > > > > >Owen wrote: > > >> However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than > Joni's, > > >I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's > >music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original > and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding > to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing > quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are > amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, > Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura > seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than > the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by > turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not > try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into > something brand new and distinctly her own. > > >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. > > That's a great way to describe it. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:23:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Alison E Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] Re: Happy Birthday (NJC) JIMMERS! I am SOOO tragically late to wish you a happy birthday, but i have been on vacation since last week and just now am getting around to answering and reading emails. I hope you had a f*cking fabulous day! i'm sure that you're sweetie did something special (shutup smurph!) and that you celebrated in high fashion. i can't wait to see you and eduardo at jonifest. i will give you a big kiss on your round head, and maybe leave some snail tr...just kidding! seriously, i love you and i hope you had a great day. xoxo, alison e. in slc - --- fmyfl@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the good wishes Kate. > Give my best to Jeff! > > xo > Jimmy > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' Owen- Finding what exactly Laura thought of Joni is a bit more challenging. I'll have to scour Kort's book some more. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: o [mailto:owen.duff@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:43 PM To: Heather Cc: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' Hi Heather - I want to read that book, but haven't seen it in a bookshop yet (I haven't gone out of my way to find it though). I'd be very interested to hear what Laura thought of Joni - like did she at all resent her for her stardom? I know Joni is guarded in her praise for Laura, but you can tell she very much admired her, I hope Laura knew that in her lifetime. O - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather" To: "o" ; Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > If you want a good read of Laura's life, check out "Soul Picnic" by Michele > Kort. I found it quite interesting since I'm a Laura Nyro fan. > > Best- > Heather > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of o > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:04 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > > > That's exaclty what I meant, in fact I read a quite somewhere that said > something like "Laura influenced a lot of people, but no-one seemed to have > influenced her". Obviously there are influences in her music, but it was so > against 'pop' music in a lot of ways... having said that, I think Laura was > allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was > indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record > company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the > budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! This is > what the industry doesn't get anymore - there has been lots of hand-wringing > in the UK recently about the "state of music", and the reason the charts are > full of crap is because the companies now go after the trend, the quick-hit, > and don't look recognise or care about real talent anymore. They don't have > a clue that all artists (and hence good long-term investments) need support > to grow and experiment. But then maybe they see artists as trouble, artists > make albums like 'Mingus'! Of course, in the 60s and 70s the industry was > practically made up of music fans who happened to have good business sense, > now it's full of accountants who wouldn't know art if it screamed at them > like Laura Nyro at the end of 'Tom Cat Goodby'!! > o > > > > >Owen wrote: > > >> However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than > Joni's, > > >I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's > >music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original > and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding > to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing > quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are > amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, > Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura > seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than > the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by > turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not > try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into > something brand new and distinctly her own. > > >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. > > That's a great way to describe it. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:50:52 -0400 From: "Heather" Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' -LONG Owen- See if they have Kort's book in your local library. Ya never know. Let's see ... I'll snag some excerpts from the book. On the back jacket there are wonderful praises of Laura by Rickie Lee Jones, Suzanne Vega, Mary Travers, Donna Summer AND then our Ms. Mitchell. Joni's is by far the most lack luster one: "Laura Nyro you can lump me in with, because Laura exerted an influence on me. I looked to her and took some direction from her." Joni compares musical craft: Nyro obviously "saw" music in colors, shapes, and textures - perhaps having a mild form of synesthesia, a sensation deriving from a sense other than the one being stimulated. Joni Mitchell has said that both she and Nyro could speak of music only in such terms. "It used to be embarrassing to myself and to Laura Nyro in particular to play with technical musicians in the early days," explained Mitchell. "It would embarrass us that we were lacking in a knowledgeable way, and that we would give instructions to players in terms of metaphors - either color descriptions or painterly descriptions." Not a quote by Joni but interestingly put: "Mitchell and Nyro, the primary goddesses of the singer-songwriter pantheon, became beacons of permission for other women musicians. These two women weren't just allowed to be confessional, but encouraged to be so by their listeners, who yearned to identify their own feelings in the songs. Mitchell's and Nyro's work thus became part and parcel of second-wave feminism, which craved personal expression as a tool to break down decades of the feminine mystique. Rock music critic Robert Christgau said of Mitchell, but it's equally applicable to Nyro, that, "In a male performer such intense self-concern would be an egotistic cop-out. In a woman it is an act of defiance." Another interesting one: Stephen Paley remembers that Mitchell, who would eventually surpass Nyro in popularity, was deferential to her at this early point in their careers. "Laura was the queen," says Paley. But Mitchell was only one of many popular artists of the day who showed a reverence toward Nyro. "I was always amazed watching other artists go over to Laura and just be completely mesmerized by her," says Paley. "She was really an artist's artist."  Nyro became friends with a number of music celebrities of the time. "She had a lot of artist friends for a while," says Richard Chiaro, who worked as Nyro's booking agent and road manager after Geffen moved to California in 1969. "She was generally comfortable with artists. Stevie Wonder came down and sang with her at a piano once. In L.A., I think Joni Mitchell came over to the Chateau Marmont [the West Hollywood hotel famous for celebrity guests] for Laura and me to teach her yoga." Yet another: Gonna Take a Miracle was released on November 17, 1971, and drew mostly favorable reviews. Despite reservations he had about the arrangement of certain cuts, Aletti called it ''as good as anything I've heard this year," and rated it the seventh-best album on his annual list-ahead of Joni Mitchell's acclaimed Blue (No.8) and Carole King's wildly popular Tapestry (No.10). In the British magazine Sounds, Penny Valentine opined that the songs took on a fresh sheen without losing their original feel, "even though [Nyro] has bent them round her voice and restructured them to her own ideas." And another: Finally, John Rockwell judged Nyro's music to be as strong as ever, with "I Am the Blues" matching her best work. He deemed the poetry of Smile as lesser in quality than that of Nyro's "inspired adolescence," but expected she would reach a far wider audience than before with the album. Having "paved the way for Joni Mitchell, Janis Ian, Dory Previn, and Phoebe Snow, . . . now they've paved the way for her," he predicted. The album did not meet such lofty expectations, however, despite being played widely on album-oriented FM stations after its release in March of 1976. It reached only No. 60 on Billboard's album chart. Critics and fans had hoped that the Nyro who returned from her self-imposed retreat would be the same Nyro who left. But as a woman who always did things on her own terms-let alone someone who had married, moved from the city, discovered feminism, and lost her precious mother-she was bound to disappoint. She was in the same no- win situation that Joni Mitchell would describe a few years later in an interview with Rolling Stone's Cameron Crowe. Any artist, said Mitchell, gets crucified for too-often repeating the formula that brought them initial success, yet is equally criticized for upending that formula and going in another direction. "But staying the same is boring," said Mitchell.  And change is interesting. So of the two options, Id rather be crucified for changing." So, too, would Nyro. And even though she had changed, the concert tour she'd soon embark on would prove that her audience was waiting with welcoming arms rather than hammer and nails. Joni admires Laura: "Writer Patricia Romanowski has pointed out that when a male song- writer such as John Lennon ponders fatherhood, critics bend over back- ward to praise his sensitivity, but women whose work is informed by parenthood are often misunderstood or disparaged. Combine motherhood with a career and you're dealing with an enormous amount of societal prejudice about women's roles. The ever-insightful Joni Mitchell unmasked that particular dogma, refusing to take the bait when Rolling Stone interviewer Cameron Crowe suggested that Nyro simply hadn't been "tough enough" to survive in the record business. "Laura Nyro made a choice that has tempted me on many occasions," Mitchell demurred. "And that was to lead an ordinary life. . . . Which is brave and tough in its own way." "Growth is the nature of the creative process," Nyro herself said to an interviewer in 1984. "You have to accept it, respect it, and move on." It was a sentiment that some of her fans might not have wanted to accept, especially the baby boomers who weren't ready to slow down and "mellow out" quite yet. Nyro had perhaps matured faster than they had, but like other great artists, she couldn't wait for everyone to catch up." That's about it. Joni is referenced plenty of times in Kort's book. I think Kort did a good job of painting a picture of the music industry along with capturing Laura Nyro's life. Sorry for the long response but I thought some people might like the read. Heather - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of o Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:43 PM To: Heather Cc: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' Hi Heather - I want to read that book, but haven't seen it in a bookshop yet (I haven't gone out of my way to find it though). I'd be very interested to hear what Laura thought of Joni - like did she at all resent her for her stardom? I know Joni is guarded in her praise for Laura, but you can tell she very much admired her, I hope Laura knew that in her lifetime. O - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather" To: "o" ; Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: RE: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > If you want a good read of Laura's life, check out "Soul Picnic" by Michele > Kort. I found it quite interesting since I'm a Laura Nyro fan. > > Best- > Heather > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of o > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:04 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Joni vs. Laura and a rant about 'the industry' > > > That's exaclty what I meant, in fact I read a quite somewhere that said > something like "Laura influenced a lot of people, but no-one seemed to have > influenced her". Obviously there are influences in her music, but it was so > against 'pop' music in a lot of ways... having said that, I think Laura was > allowed to grow as an artist because she wrote hits early on, so she was > indulged in a way and allowed to do whatever she wanted - what record > company these days would give a 20-year old who never had a hit herself the > budget for an orchestra and to take over a year to make an album?! This is > what the industry doesn't get anymore - there has been lots of hand-wringing > in the UK recently about the "state of music", and the reason the charts are > full of crap is because the companies now go after the trend, the quick-hit, > and don't look recognise or care about real talent anymore. They don't have > a clue that all artists (and hence good long-term investments) need support > to grow and experiment. But then maybe they see artists as trouble, artists > make albums like 'Mingus'! Of course, in the 60s and 70s the industry was > practically made up of music fans who happened to have good business sense, > now it's full of accountants who wouldn't know art if it screamed at them > like Laura Nyro at the end of 'Tom Cat Goodby'!! > o > > > > >Owen wrote: > > >> However out of the two, I think Laura's music is more original than > Joni's, > > >I kind of think this, too, in a way that's difficult to explain. Laura's > >music just seemed to have sprung forth from her fully formed and original > and the fact that she was so young when she started out is always astounding > to me. Joni's very first songs were much less developed (though her writing > quickly evolved). Joni's travels through different musical genres are > amazing but she did have friends (CSN, Tom Scott, Guerin, Jaco, Mingus, > Klein, et al.) who influenced and helped her along the way -whereas Laura > seems not to have been particularly influenced by anyone else (other than > the Doo Wop kids on the neighborhood street corner). Laura's music is by > turns operatic, funky, jazzy, soulful, poppy and celestial. She does not > try out different genres so much as blend disparate ones all together into > something brand new and distinctly her own. > > >Lyrically you can't compare them easily, Laura's are much > > more figurative and Joni's more descriptive. > > That's a great way to describe it. > > Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #352 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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