From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #292 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, May 18 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 292 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: re Atkins (NJC) [colin ] Re: Eddie Reader & Joni now njc ["o" ] Re: Abe njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Hooked on STRYNGS (njc) ["Martin Giles" ] Perma Vine CD ready for next stop. [Mary Casey ] Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: For The Roses - the wind last night, chilly now [Ricw1217@aol.com] Re: For The Roses - the wind last night, chilly now ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: for the roses ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings [colin ] Re: for the roses and pondering success [magsnbrei ] Re: [NortheastJonifest] may 17!!!! njc [anne@sandstrom.com] Re: Abe njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Karrin A and SJ Morris ["michael o'malley" ] Joni's songwiting methods. [Matty Nesbitt ] Re: Joni's songwiting methods. [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Abe njc [David Sadowski ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:43:15 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: re Atkins (NJC) AsharaJM@aol.com wrote: > You shouldn't have to be defending anything you eat to >anyone > unless you are called Monica.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:34:02 +0100 From: "o" Subject: Re: Eddie Reader & Joni now njc The link for clips of Eddie Reader's new album is here: http://www.roughtraderecords.com/ Ta! O ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 06:08:28 -0400 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Abe njc > Mark E. writes: > > Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here. I believe Honest > Abe only decided to free the slaves when the Civil War had drug on so > long that he needed to do something to hasten it's end. He figured it > would cripple the Confederacy sufficiently to bring it to its knees > and deal a final death blow to any hope on the South's part that > England or France would ever aid them in their Cause. He was also of > the opinion at one time that the slaves should all be sent back to > Africa once they were freed. He did, of course, change his > mind on > that point. > > Well that's what Ken Burns said anyway! Just some late thoughts on Ole Abe thread, ya'll. Lincoln's *public* policy on emancipation as a goal of the Civil War never wavered. He always made plain that, as President, he was devoted to the preservation of the Union and indifferent to the future of slavery. In August 1862, Lincoln said: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing *any* On slave, I would do it; if I could save it by freeing *all* the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." But it is clear that, like Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln hoped for the gradual extinction of the peculiar institution of slavery. Lincoln observed the consolidation of Southern opinion in favor of slavery prior to the war and sadly noted that an institution lamented as a necessary evil was now promoted as a positive good. One Virginian named George Fitzhugh had even argued, by way of justification, that slave labor was preferable to free labor, because under slavery workers had security and greater real freedom. Ever logical, Lincoln found the argument specious: "Although volume after volume is written to prove slavery a very good thing," he noted, "we never hear of the man who wishes to take the good of it, by being a slave himself." Defenses of slavery were reversible arguments to Abe: "If A. can prove that he may, of right, enslave B. - why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally that he may enslave A.?" If slavery was justified on the ground that masters were white while slaves were black, Lincoln warned "By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet with fairer skin than your own." If it was defended on the ground that masters were intellectually the superior of blacks, the same logic applied: "By this rule, you are slave to the first man you meet with an intellect superior to your own." With regard to whether Lincoln was "of the opinion...that the slaves should all be sent back to Africa, as our devil's advocate contends. It is true that Abe proposed various colonization schemes for blacks during the Civil War, but it is important to note that he always opposed compulsory deportation and always proposed government funds to assist with colonization. Moreover, on August 14, 1862, Lincoln invited a delegation of Blacks to the White House to hear his views on the subject. The first time Blacks had ever been invited to the White House in history. The fact is that slavery was doomed when Lincoln and the Republicans won the Presidency. As Barbara Fields wrote in Burns' _The Civil War_: "The slaves decided at the time of Lincoln's election that their hour had come. By the time Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation, no human being alive could have held back the tide that swept toward freedom. How far the slaves' freedom would extend and how assiduously the government would protect it were questions to which the future would provide a grim answer. But, for a crucial moment, the agenda of the slaves and merged with that of government. The government discovered that it could not accomplish its narrow goal-union-without adopting the slaves nobler one-universal emancipation." - --Julius n.p.: Nina Simone "Mississippi Goddam" > > Mark E. in Seattle > (back on NJC) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:29:06 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings In a message dated 5/17/2003 11:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Harry83house@aol.com writes: > P.S. Has anyone ever > showed up for the last day of Jonifest? I can only come on the last day, > but > I want to attend the whole thing so much. *sigh* maybe next year... > Yes, Harry, if you are talking about Sunday. Everyone is out the door sometime Monday morning/early afternoon. There is a "per day" price, and you can sign up for the one day by filling out the online form, sending me the money, including a separate check to Jim Johanson, and the hard copy release form. All the info is at: www.jonifest.com Hope to see you there! <<*sigh* maybe next year...>> There may not be a "next year" at this point. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:49:36 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings In a message dated 5/17/2003 11:54:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Harry83house writes: > >(And I HATE that I didn't get all of the "Beat of Black Wings"!) Well, you got some of it, and it's amazing how much intensity shines through just in this 2-minute segment...and listening to it along with all the other artists brought back SO many good memories. Hopefully, someday it will ALL show up, but til then this fills the gap very nicely. > P.S. Has anyone ever showed up for the last day of Jonifest? I can only > come on the last day, but I want to attend the whole thing so much. *sigh* > maybe next year... > Harry, I'm not sure there will BE a next year based on the low turnout expected thus far...ONE DAY will work just fine, come on up, it's not far from where you're at. Ashara offers one day passes, several folks did that last year and it was a welcome breath of fresh air to the celebration. Please consider it and see what you can work out - I'd LOVE to shake the hand that snagged these recordings for us! :~) Bob NP: Carole Pope, "Down To You" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:05:05 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Hooked on STRYNGS (njc) Hi Kerry Thanks so much for your praise of the album. Strings' lyrics are stunning aren't they? I went with Chris and Strings along to the Kashmir Klub in London last night. You may know that this is a gorgeous little live music club devoted to showcasing new musical and songwriting talent. I've been a regular in the audience for years, and was hoping that Stryngs would play there sometime soon. Unfortunately, the owner of the building has decided to sell it, and so has shut the venue down - last night was the Last Night. :( Anna (the violinist on our album) was there too. She was co-hosting the night, and accompanying people from time to time. We were really hoping our band might be able to squeeze in one number at some point in the evening, but it was not to be. Sadly, the end of an era. Martin. In London. > > I cannot stop listening to this CD!!!! > > If you love original and interesting lyrics, great guitar and bass playing, a > singer with a unique voice and a touch of violin adding color to beautiful > melodies, you will love Stryngs. (http://www.stryngs.com/) > > It's the best new music I've heard in a long time. > > Thanks Chris and Martin! > > Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:16:20 -0700 From: Mary Casey Subject: Perma Vine CD ready for next stop. I have a copy for someone who can't burn their own and am ready to send it to the next burner. Please let me know who you are. Thanks, Mary PERMA-VINE RULES: 1) When you receive your Perma-Vine disc you must MAKE COPIES FOR YOURSELF and re-post an offer on JMDL. You will forward the ORIGINAL DISC onto the next recipient (you may NOT keep the original Perma-Vine disc). This method ensures that all participants can get a clean, glitch-free copy of this show directly off the original disc. 2) You must re-post your offer of this vine only to JMDL. Once you have selected the next recipient, you must post their name, e-mail and state/country to the JMDL list. If, after TWO postings within a 48-hour period, there is no response, you may then, and only then, post the Perma-Vine offer to another group, but you MUST post an announcement to JMDL indicating which group you have transferred this Perma-Vine to. 3) By requesting these Perma-Vine discs, you have agreed to make this show available to those who are unable to burn copies for themselves (and, thus, cannot participate directly in this Perma-Vine). You agree to post an offer(s) on JMDL for at least one burnerless individual as soon as you have forwarded the original Perma-Vine disc onto the next recipient. You must post the name, e-mail and state/country of the burnerless recipient to the JMDL list. Additionally, you may B+P or trade this to as many as you like AFTER you have forwarded the Perma-Vine discs onto the next recipient. You are not required to post subsequent trades or B+P's to the list 4) You further agree to keep the Perma-Vine disc in your possession no longer than 72 hours before re-offering. 5) Lastly, you agree to ENJOY this music immensely! Here is the track information: 1) That Song About the Midway Joni 2) The Gallery Joni 3) Rainy Day Man James 4) Steamroller Blues James 5) The Priest Joni 6) Carey Joni 7) Carolina in My Mind James 8) California Joni + James 9) For Free Joni + James 10) The Circle Game Joni + James 11) You Can Close Your Eyes Joni + James 12) Hunter Joni 13) River Joni 14) My Old Man Joni 15) A Case of You Joni 16) Carey (unedited intro) Joni ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:09:35 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings Harry and Bob thanks so much for your efforts on Wall to Wall! Bob..I just went back and read your review...again.. I felt like I was there. Very eager to here all....but I must say, Bob, after your words "This is a performance I'll remember my whole life".....referring to Helga Davis......she would top my list. Were most of these performers fans of Joni? Any remarks from Joni about Wall to Wall? Thanks Again.... Bree NP: A Case Of You....Phoebe Snow >I then took those cd's and made a (2) cd collection of JUST the music, with >no or very little dialogue, and this makes a nice 2-hour sampler of the >music. Here's what's on the 2 cd's: > >Disc One: >1. Lucy Kaplansky - Carey >2. Lucy Kaplansky - Willy >3. Lorinda Lisitza - Cherokee Louise >4. Lorinda Lisitza - Song For Sharon >5. Lorinda Lisitza - Ray's Dad's Cadillac >6. Stretto - Little Green >7. Helga Davis - The Beat Of Black Wing (edit) >8. Sylvia McNair - Chelsea Morning >9. Syvia McNair - California >10. Laurie Anderson - Both Sides Now >11. Jason Moran - The Priest >12. Jason Moran w/Alicia Hall - Woodstock >13. Garland Jeffreys - People's Parties (edit) >14. Garland Jeffreys - You Turn Me On I'm A Radio > >Disc Two: >1. Jane Ira Bloom - Woman Of Heart And Mind >2. Morley - This Flight Tonight >3. Morley - River >4. Morley - Chinese Cafi >5. Lauren Flanigan - Song To A Seagull/Hejira (edit) >6. Gregory Douglas & Jeremy Mendocino - Free Man In Paris >7. Carole Pope - Down To You >8. Carole Pope - Raised On Robbery >9. The Four Bags w/David Garland - Songs To Aging Children Come >10. The Four Bags w/David Garland - Turbulent Indigo >11. The Four Bags - Wild Things Run Fast >12. The Four Bags - Help Me >13. Fred Hersch - My Old Man (edit) > >Obviously, all this is included as well in the three-cd collection. (edit) >means that this is just a portion of the performance. > >If you want to revisit my review and opinions of these performances: > >http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1077 > >If you'd like to get cdr copies, I'm happy to make them for you. Here's >what >to do: > >a. Send me blank cd's (any kind are fine) and postage to return them to >you. >I can re-use the envelope you send them in, but if you want to include a >self-addressed stamped envelope, that's cool. > >b. Send me $2 per cd ($4 for the 2-cd set, $6 for the 3-cd set), which will >cover the cost of the cd (in a thin jewel case), a padded mailer, and >postage >to you. I do have a paypal account if that's helpful to you, use my >"SCJoniguy@aol.com" address. > >In either case, please include a note saying "Wall to Wall" so I know what >you want. > >If you don't want either of these collections, do nothing. > >These instructions are for US only. If you're outside the border, I'm still >happy to share - it just gets a bit trickier to do. So just drop me a line >& >we can work it out. > >My address: >Bob Muller >309 West Prentiss Ave. >Greenville, SC 29605 > >And don't thank me...thank Harry. I am but a vessel through which his >goodness & generosity has passed. > >Bob > >NP: Groove Armada, "Sun Toucher" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:17:16 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Abe njc Your arguments are somewhat simplistic and overlook a number of factors. The Ken Burns documentary was, in itself, also a massive oversimplification of an incredibly complicated subject. First of all, Lincoln became morally opposed to slavery possibly as early as the late 1840s. I could quote from letters he wrote in the mid-1850s that demonstrate that pretty clearly. As far as that goes, his opposition to slavery never wavered throughout the rest of his life. However, when Lincoln re-entered the political arena in 1854 (after the Kansas-Nebraska Act became law) he had to work within the confines of what was socially and politically possible in his time. Yes, there were Abolitionists but on the whole, they weren't going to be elected to much of anything except in a few places. And there was, unavoidably, still a strong undercurrent of racism even in those areas of the country (like the Northeast) that were Abolitionist. So, Lincoln's public stance was always pragmatist even as he was privately a moralist. It is a mistake to take Lincoln's public pronouncements and work backwards to project them onto his private views. There was always a difference between the two, and Lincoln thought of his public persona in much the way that an actor plays a part written for him on the stage. In real life, the part written for Lincoln was quite large and, in myth, certainly equals any of the great characters created for the stage, such as Hamlet. Lincoln, more than any other person, changed the political and social structure of the nation in such a way as to bring about the end of slavery. Thus, he made reality conform to his personal moral view, but it certainly wasn't easy (it took a bloody Civil War to do that) ad it didn't happen overnight, either. Yes, Lincoln proposed buying the slaves' freedom and sending them back to Africa. He was not able to convince many people that this was a good idea, even though he tried. Yes, Lincoln was surprised to find that American blacks considered themselves Americans first and did not want to return to Africa. Such stumbles did not prevent him from enlisting a few hundred thousand blacks to fight as soldiers in the Union Army where they served with distinction. But, at the end of his life, in his last speech, he supported voting rights for some blacks. He also invited Frederick Douglass to be a guest at the White House after his second inaugural, and told him that his opinion of the speech mattered to him more than anyone else's. There were early attempts at de facto emancipation of slaves earlier in the war, and Lincoln squelched them and reprimanded the officers involved... not because he did not think it was right, but because the time was not yet right, and to do so at too early a stage would have hurt the cause in the long run. Keep in mind also that prior to the Civil War, Lincoln, as president, had no power to free anybody. Slavery was thought to be protected by the Constitution as a property right in those states where it was sanctioned in state constitutions. The Supreme Court even seemed in the late 1850s to be on the verge of extending those property rights everywhere in the country. Slavery was also defeated in part by the course of social changes in the South, to the extent that by war's end, the South was ready to abandon slavery in exchange for independence. But since slavery was the cause of the separation (the "cornerstone"), this was not a logical way to win the war. The Civil War had the effect of completely undermining ALL the so-called values that the South held dear at the start of the war. The South wanted to remain a largely rural, agricultural economy, where a class of aristocrats derived their wealth off the backs of slaves. In order to fight the war, the South had to rapidly industrialize and try to become a manufacturing economy with large cities that would've utilized the skilled labor of workers. By refusing to abandon slavery at the start of the war, the South suffered total devastation by the end... a devastation that had also been predicted with startling accuracy in a speech before the war by Alexander Stephens, the same man who became Confederate vice-president and gave the "Cornerstone" speech shortly after the war started. When you take a closer look at the Civil War, ironies abound. - -Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:18:19 -0400 From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: For The Roses - the wind last night, chilly now mark! what a beautiful post about my second favorite of all time joni songs, (FTR) with my second favorite of all time images in joni lyrics! (the moon as an empty spotlight). you make me wanna go and listen to tlog's version of it once again, which i will do. (i have hated it since the first few listens and now skip over it on the rare occasions i play that disc at all...but maybe your musings will reopen it for me. i'll let you know.) thanks, as always, for sharing your heart and mind with a fellow traveller on this lonely road... love and peace, ric ps. oh all right, if you insist. my VERY favorite joni song is refuge of the roads, and my VERY favorite image in all of her lyrics is the amazingly deft bit about the photograph of the earth taken coming back from the moon.... but what about the pawn shops glittering like gold tooth caps? or the miami sky red as meat? or the white flags of winter chimneys? or hurrying through the blackness to lay down an impression of your loneliness... stop me, please. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:42:45 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: For The Roses - the wind last night, chilly now I concur..it was beautiful Mark! >love and peace, ric > >ps. oh all right, if you insist. my VERY favorite joni song is refuge of >the roads, and my VERY favorite image in all of her lyrics is the amazingly >deft bit about the photograph of the earth taken coming back from the >moon.... > >but what about the pawn shops glittering like gold tooth caps? or the >miami sky red as meat? or the white flags of winter chimneys? or hurrying >through the blackness to lay down an impression of your loneliness... > >stop me, please. No...go on...And you couldn't see a city..on that marbled bowling ball.....or the forest or a highway..or me here least of all... Sweet bird you are...briefer than a falling star ..all these vain promises on beauty jars..somewhere with your wings on time..... varnished weeds in window jars...tarnished beads on tapestries....kept in satin boxes are.....reflections of love's memories Bree _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:15:49 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings In a message dated 5/18/2003 11:09:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bree_mcdonough@hotmail.com writes: > >Bob..I just > >went back and read your review...again.. I felt like I was there. Hey, me too! :~) Actually, I went back and read through that this week as well, and it amazed me how much I had FORGOTTEN. I'm glad I wrote all that down when I did or it would have been lost fer sher. > Very > > >eager to here all....but I must say, Bob, after your words "This is a > >performance I'll remember my whole life".....referring to Helga > >Davis......she would top my list. While I loved 90+% of the day's performances, this was truly something that was unique. Went so far beyond a simple Joni cover set I still get chills and emotional thinking about it. And I'll always remember Debra sharing the moment with me. > >Were most of these performers fans of Joni? I would wager to say that ALL of them were, many gushingly so. For the benefit of those who don't ever want to hear any of this, I intend to post some of the quotes from the performers that are included in the 3-CD set. F'rinstance...Garland Jeffreys had this to say: "What a thrill to be part of this event...they called me a few months ago, asked me if I wanted to be part of it...boy, I didn't realize what a job it would be to work on these songs! I got a chance to get to know Joni Mitchell a number of years ago, we used to hang out in a familiar place, she was good friends with a very good friend of mine, and she was absolutely a lovely person. And you know they often say she's one of the great, great, great WOMEN artists of this, you know, pop generation, but I beg to differ, and say that she's truly one of THE great artists of this generation, brilliant...absolutely brilliant." (so we can assume that Garland Jeffreys 'gets it') > >Any remarks from Joni about Wall to Wall? She has yet to return my call. ;~) But the folks at WFUV tell me that they'll be doing a special broadcast of some of the highlights from Wall to Wall on Joni's birthday, which is cool. Bob NP: Bruce Springsteen, "Does This Bus Stop At 82nd Street", unplugged in Somerville, MA 2/19/03 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:52:51 EDT From: Harry83house@aol.com Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings Say, Bob, did you happen to notice any video cameras or filming going on at Symphony Space that day? It would be nice if it was preserved somewhere, even if only for archival purposes. I also have to tell you I've been listening to Covers #22 (the one that starts out with the Yale Whippenpoofs of 1972) all day and its a wonderful collection. It has a great flow and its perfect Sunday morning music. My favorite C&C, (so far). :) Harry NP: Frank Stallone!!!, "A Case of You" !!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:18:00 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: For The Roses - the wind last night, chilly now > but what about the pawn shops glittering like gold tooth caps? or > the miami sky red as meat? or the white flags of winter chimneys? > or hurrying through the blackness to lay down an impression of your > loneliness... > > stop me, please. I wouldn't dream of doing same! these are the clouds of Michaelangelo, muscular with gods and sun gold give me some time, i feel like i'm losing mine, out here on this horizon line with the earth spinning and the sky forever rushing still the winter days unfold like magazines fading in dusty grey attics and cellars the place where you can stand and press your hands like it was bubblebath in dust piled high as me while the song that he sang her to soothe her to sleep runs all through her circuits like a heart beat Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:18:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings In a message dated 5/18/2003 12:52:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Harry83house writes: > >Say, Bob, did you happen to notice any video cameras or filming going >on > at Symphony Space that day? It would be nice if it was preserved > > somewhere, even if only for archival purposes. That WOULD be awesome! I didn't see anything like that, but of course was in a fog most of the day. Time will tell, I suppose. Last night I was hanging with a fellow Bruce fan (he's here on a visa from Italy, and let me tell you, these Bruce fans are a RABID lot - we watched some bootleg DVD from some of the 2002 Bruce tour, the quality & sound are just incredible. The technology out there these days is something else!) >I also have to tell you I've been listening to Covers #22 (the one that > >starts out with the Yale Whippenpoofs of 1972) all day and its a >wonderful > collection. It has a great flow and its perfect Sunday >morning music. My > favorite C&C, (so far). Thanks for the great feedback Harry...I just know you've got Murphy steaming! :~) And 4 more in the mail to you as we speak...including the upcoming #41 for a sneak peek. > NP: Frank Stallone!!!, "A Case of You" !!! And produced by another great Harry, Harry Nilsson! Bob NP: Bruce, "Sherry Darling" Somerville MA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:37:27 -0700 From: Casey Certis-Milby Subject: Joni-James Perma-Vine burnerless recipient A burned copy of Joni/James in London has been sent to: Kerry Berghoff kilauren@msn.com Scottsdale AZ I still have the Perma-Vine ready to fly, so email me off list and it's yours. Casey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:39:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "walterphil" Subject: for the roses dear mark in seattle--- liked your recent treatise on the song "for the roses" but i always thought it was an open letter to james taylor. after all she does say "you" a lot and i think if she was referring to herself, she would probably have said "i" i get a feeling she escaped to that cabin partly to get away from it all (and james). i may be wrong, but james had huge sucesses with "sweet baby" and "mudslide" by then. joni had yet to have her "court and spark" success. i believe she was critically successfull by then but had not reached james mass success. "they toss around your latest golden egg..." and he was seen on a lot more "giant screens" than she was. also the image of an artist pouring simple sorrows to " the soundhole and your knee" seem to me a much more masculine/james image rather than a joni one. not to mention at the time his songs were steeped in sorrow a lot more than hers. also the line "did you get a round resounding for you way up here" seems to be tinged with more than a touch of sarcasm. lastly, especially, joni getting notes from girls who just have to tell her (painful to her i'm sure) that they saw him somewhere. this coupled with the fact that "see you sometime' is definately about him, made me always think that "for the roses" is an open letter to him. just my opinion walt The guitar work on the original 'For the Roses' is a thing of beauty that I wouldn't change one note of for all the world. It works really well when the lyric turns to pictures of a poet selling his songs to a record company exec or when Joni is waxing nostalgic about the days when she could sit in relative peace, even in a performance setting, and compose, play and sing with nothing but her guitar as accompaniment. But for me it doesn't evoke the lyric's ambiguity about the music business or illustrate the disquiet of Joni's thinking on the subject the way this new version does. Of course, when she wrote 'For the Roses' she was quite a few years from the level of frustration and weariness that she is at now. A lot of waves have washed up on that bit of BC coast and the moon has waxed and waned many times since then and both the arrangement and the vocal on Travelogue are reflective of that. The focus has shifted away from pouring her simple sorrow to the sound hole and her knee to thoughts of hammers, boards and nails and people who have slices of her from the company. The wind is chilly now. Her relationship with the music business has cooled considerably as well. Summer's over. But the optimist in me is still in deep denial that the relationship is over as well. Mark E in Seattle The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:33:38 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: for the roses walterphil wrote: > dear mark in seattle--- > liked your recent treatise on the song "for the roses" > but i always thought it was an open letter to james taylor. > after all she does say "you" a lot and i think > if she was referring to herself, she would probably > have said "i" > > i get a feeling she escaped to that cabin > partly to get away from it all (and james). You could very well be right about this as far as the original intent and recording of FTR is concerned. I thought about that as I was writing my post. There is definitely someone else she is addressing in the song and she uses the pronoun 'he' when referring to the trembling poet. And those notes on lilac sprays and butterflies were definitely about somebody she had been recently involved with. But I also thought she was talking about her own experience with the music business. Maybe she hadn't yet had the attention that 'Court and Spark' brought her but she had released 'Blue' and that had made a huge impact. She had appeared in the Isle of Wight film and the 'Celebration at Big Sur' movie. And she uses the first person when she sings the 'I guess I seem ungrateful with my teeth sunk in the hand...etc' verse. Anyway, as I said in my original post, I think the focus of the song has shifted in the Travelogue version. A lot of time has gone by and it would seem odd that she would still be much pre-occupied with James at this late date. I wanted to add one more thought that may not have been evident in my post. I used to think her ruminations on these subjects were taking place on a late summer/early autumn night that was clear and dry with an occasional breeze stirring those noisy arbutus trees. That's what the tranquil, quiet quality of the guitar suggested to me. The new version is stormy with gusting winds and, in my mind anyway, it's a wet night much more like winter than summer. By the way, Walt, I was searching back through the archives to see if anyone had talked about this song while I was on hiatus from the list and I ran across your track list for Joni's Xmas cd. What a scream! And then I found Steve Polifka's 'The Last Time I Saw Carly' and I was howling! Good job and thanks for the laughs to you both, guys! Seems I signed off just as the Travelogue controversy was beginning to heat up. I almost labelled my post 'WARNING - TRAVELOGUE CONTENT' but thought better of it. Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:25:10 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Wall to Wall Joni Mitchell recordings i ahve a cd called 'close your eyes' with joni and james. the listing is as follows: Songs about the midway gallery rainy day man steam roller priest carey carolina on my mind california he played real good for free circle game you can close your eyes. I mistakenly(it seems) assumed htis was the cd you are talking about tho on my cd(it is german) it says it was recorded live in the usa but gives no other info. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT) From: magsnbrei Subject: Re: for the roses and pondering success I love Mark's interpretation of For the Roses, as I have written to tell him so off list in two letters. I can almost hear Joni saying.... wow thanks for telling me what it means to you. Thanks Mark for showing us another way of seeing. That's one of the beautiful things about this list. In addition to the winds that Marks hears as well as the sounds of the arbutus trees shifting, whispering, dancing in those winds...I can see colours throughout the orchestral productions. I cannot judge negatively what I hear, see, feel from within this project. Admittedly , I am influenced by an indepth exposure to "classical" music in my life, as well as the performance at the Hommage in Toronto that October, so long ago now, when Joni gave us a demo demonstration . She was so excited to share her evolving work...her work in progress, a new way of seeing, hearing, feeling so many songs. as far as Joni's success is concerned...I pose this question to the list. How do you see that? Is she successful? Why? Is it because of number of sales that you deem someone successful? for me, I see Joni as successful because of my life long relationship with her music, she has written the sound track to my life and the lives of so many across nations. Ive been hook line and sinkered ever since Court and Spark in the spring of 74. Joni has made an impact, she has influenced so many of us here on this list and beyond. She has moved me beyond words so many times, and with each listening, I hear something new. And just when I think I have my mind made up, someone like Mark in Seattle offers up a new view, his vision. MagsnBrei, delighted to be Joni fans, together, at last ;-)) np: Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire nw: the landscape beyond our living room window....gorgeous sun light dancing over deep grey clouds on that moody skye today. You open my heart, you do. Yes you do. - JM The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: Re: [NortheastJonifest] may 17!!!! njc I hope Your Blueness had a most splendid day! And many more Smurphdays to come! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:55:46 -0400 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Abe njc > David S. writes: > > Your arguments are somewhat simplistic and overlook a number of factors. > The Ken Burns documentary was, in itself, also a massive > oversimplification of an incredibly complicated subject. Are you talking to me, David? If so, you should know that I didn't base any of my comments on a Burns book except for a very brief excerpt from an essay called "Who Freed the Slaves" that was actually written by Barbara J. Fields. I am mindful that any writings on Lincoln or the Civil War are bound to be simplified due to time and space constraints, just as your observations below are. And just so you know, the primary sources for my comments were: _Lincoln_ (1995) by David Herbert Donald and _A Documentary History of the Negro People in the United States_ (1951) by Herbert Aptheker. > First of all, Lincoln became morally opposed to slavery possibly as > early as the late 1840s. No, much earlier, actually. Lincoln was born into a family of Separatist Baptists in 1809. Adhering to a very strict code of morality, most all Separatist Baptists were opposed to slavery. Lincoln said he was "naturally anti-slavery" and added in 1864 that "I cannot remember when I did not so think, and feel." > However, when Lincoln re-entered the political arena in 1854 (after the > Kansas-Nebraska Act became law) he had to work within the confines of > what was socially and politically possible in his time. Yes, there were > Abolitionists but on the whole, they weren't going to be elected to much > of anything except in a few places. I can't make sense out of this passage. Please clarify. > So, Lincoln's public stance was always pragmatist even as he was > privately a moralist. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. > It is a mistake to take Lincoln's public > pronouncements and work backwards to project them onto his private > views. I've done no such thing. I believe you're comitting the fallacy of confusing a causal relationship with a temporal sequence. My comments were meant to correspond to the questions posed by Mark E.'s email. > There was always a difference between the two, and Lincoln > thought of his public persona in much the way that an actor plays a part > written for him on the stage. I would be interested in knowing what basis you have for this conjecture. Are you suggesting that Lincoln was being directed by others during his presidency? > In real life, the part written for Lincoln was quite large and, in myth, > certainly equals any of the great characters created for the stage, such > as Hamlet. Lincoln, more than any other person, changed the political > and social structure of the nation in such a way as to bring about the > end of slavery. Thus, he made reality conform to his personal moral > view, but it certainly wasn't easy (it took a bloody Civil War to do > that) ad it didn't happen overnight, either. This passage teeters precariously on the brink of the bullshit abyss, David. I don't see anything factual here. Is this not an oversimplifcation? > Yes, Lincoln proposed buying the slaves' freedom and sending them back > to Africa. He was not able to convince many people that this was a good > idea, even though he tried. Yes, Lincoln was surprised to find that > American blacks considered themselves Americans first and did not want > to return to Africa. Such stumbles did not prevent him from enlisting a > few hundred thousand blacks to fight as soldiers in the Union Army where > they served with distinction. I fail to see the connection, direct or indirect, between Lincoln's colonization schemes and the enlistment of blacks in the Union Army. And to say that all of the approx. 200,000 blacks that fought as soldiers in the Union Army did so with distinction is an unwarranted objectification, I think. > But, at the end of his life, in his last speech, he supported voting > rights for some blacks. He also invited Frederick Douglass to be a > guest at the White House after his second inaugural, and told him that > his opinion of the speech mattered to him more than anyone else's. Okay. What is your point here? Does this make him a more noble figure in your opinion? > There were early attempts at de facto emancipation of slaves earlier in > the war, and Lincoln squelched them and reprimanded the officers > involved... not because he did not think it was right, but because the > time was not yet right, and to do so at too early a stage would have > hurt the cause in the long run. This is oversimple, but there is some truth to it, although I'm not quite sure what "cause" you're referring to. > Slavery was also defeated in part by the course of social changes in the > South, to the extent that by war's end, the South was ready to abandon > slavery in exchange for independence. But since slavery was the cause > of the separation (the "cornerstone"), this was not a logical way to win > the war. This is revisionist drivel. Where did you read this, please? > The Civil War had the effect of completely undermining ALL the so-called > values that the South held dear at the start of the war. The South > wanted to remain a largely rural, agricultural economy, where a class of > aristocrats derived their wealth off the backs of slaves. In order to > fight the war, the South had to rapidly industrialize and try to become > a manufacturing economy with large cities that would've utilized the > skilled labor of workers. Oversimplification of the highest order here. Can one realistically say what the "the South" wanted to do. Didn't "the South" contend that what they were fighting for was individual state's rights? > > By refusing to abandon slavery at the start of the war, the South > suffered total devastation by the end... I believe you may be confusing cause and effect here again, Dave. This is a classic Post Hoc logical fallacy. You assume that since A. occurred before B., then A. is the cause of B. Can you prove that the first event precipitated the other? Thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts on these issues. - -Julius > > -Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:03:45 -0400 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Karrin A and SJ Morris I'm just back from my high-school reunion in Montreal, where I picked up tickets for two concerts during this summer's jazz fest. Can you believe it? Karrin Allyson and Sarah Jane Morris are playing back to back, on June 26 and 27 at Club Soda in Montreal. I'm very excited at the prospect of being able to hear these two great singers live, after having dicovered them through this list. Thanks folks. All are welcome to join us. Catch the fest line up at http://www.montrealjazzfest.com/fijm2003/programmation/grille_en.asp?progType =payant&dateselected= Allyson has a busy performance schedule this summer, she's all over the place. You can follow her tour here: http://www.karrin.com/sched.html#currentmonth Joni Content: Now if only we could get Karrin to add Blue Motel Room to her set - that would take us over the top! Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:01:16 +0100 From: Matty Nesbitt Subject: Joni's songwiting methods. hi, My name is matty, and I'm new to the list, and love Joni's music. As a musician/songwriter myself, I am very interested in Joni's songwriting methods, can anyone point me in the right direction in this regard? Any online articles etc? thanks matty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:15:01 EDT From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's songwiting methods. In a message dated 5/18/2003 10:03:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mattygn@blueyonder.co.uk writes: > My name is matty, and I'm new to the list, and love Joni's music. > As a musician/songwriter myself, I am very interested in Joni's songwriting > > methods, can anyone point me in the right direction in this regard? Any > online articles etc? > First of all, welcome to the list, Matty! There are many, many articles in the JMDL database, and you can run a search on keywords that you think might be helpful. Go to www.jmdl.com and click on the library section and then sit back for a moment and take it all in. You won't believe your eyes! Happy reading, and again, welcome to the list! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:19:13 -0500 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Abe njc JRMCo1@aol.com wrote Lincoln could not have been elected President (or Senator from Illinois, or much else) if he'd positioned himself as an Abolitionist. >>However, when Lincoln re-entered the political arena in 1854 (after the >>Kansas-Nebraska Act became law) he had to work within the confines of >>what was socially and politically possible in his time. Yes, there were >>Abolitionists but on the whole, they weren't going to be elected to much >>of anything except in a few places. >> >> > >I can't make sense out of this passage. Please clarify. > > > >Lincoln was very much playing a part, a public persona different in some respects from his private self, but the person directing the performance was Lincoln, not anyone else. However, Lincoln did make some bad bargains in order to get elected president, which included giving a cabinet post to the corrupt Simon Cameron who was a political bigwig in Pennsylvania. > > > >>There was always a difference between the two, and Lincoln >>thought of his public persona in much the way that an actor plays a part >>written for him on the stage. >> >> > >I would be interested in knowing what basis you have for this conjecture. Are you suggesting that Lincoln was being directed by others during his presidency? > > It's readily apparent that Lincoln helped shape, to a great extent, the way that the Civil War broke out, progressed, and ended. One can imagine quite a different set of outcomes if someone else with a lot less fortitude had been president. He brought events in line with his personal moral beliefs... moral beliefs that are stated pretty clearly in a number of important speeches and addresses, such as House Divided, the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Cooper Union, Gettysburgh Address, and especially the Second Inaugural. > > >>In real life, the part written for Lincoln was quite large and, in myth, >>certainly equals any of the great characters created for the stage, such >>as Hamlet. Lincoln, more than any other person, changed the political >>and social structure of the nation in such a way as to bring about the >>end of slavery. Thus, he made reality conform to his personal moral >>view, but it certainly wasn't easy (it took a bloody Civil War to do >>that) ad it didn't happen overnight, either. >> >> > >This passage teeters precariously on the brink of the bullshit abyss, David. I don't see anything factual here. Is this not an oversimplifcation? > > While Lincoln steadfastly proposed colonization schemes, which essentially assume that blacks aren't just as American as anyone and don't belong here, he was also more than willing to let them fight and die as soldiers... and thought that they should gain not only their freedom, but suffrage too. > > >>Yes, Lincoln proposed buying the slaves' freedom and sending them back >>to Africa. He was not able to convince many people that this was a good >>idea, even though he tried. Yes, Lincoln was surprised to find that >>American blacks considered themselves Americans first and did not want >>to return to Africa. Such stumbles did not prevent him from enlisting a >>few hundred thousand blacks to fight as soldiers in the Union Army where >>they served with distinction. >> >> > >I fail to see the connection, direct or indirect, between Lincoln's colonization schemes and the enlistment of blacks in the Union Army. And to say that all of the approx. 200,000 blacks that fought as soldiers in the Union Army did so with distinction is an unwarranted objectification, I think. > Well, yeah. Being right in the end does make him a "more noble figure," doesn't it? > > > >>But, at the end of his life, in his last speech, he supported voting >>rights for some blacks. He also invited Frederick Douglass to be a >>guest at the White House after his second inaugural, and told him that >>his opinion of the speech mattered to him more than anyone else's. >> >> > >Okay. What is your point here? Does this make him a more noble figure in your opinion? > > > > >There are any number of books I could site that shed light on this, and they use reams of historic documents to demonstrate that the course of war in the South undermined slavery... and fostered the same sorts of rapid industrialization and urbanization that were taking place in the North, which required skilled labor with a stake in the outcome, not slave labor without anything to gain. It's an incontrovertable fact that the South's bargaining position in early 1865 (after Lincoln was re-elected, which they were hoping would not happen) was to offer to abandon slavery in exchange for independence. None of this is revisionist. You could, for example, take a look at Robert E. Lee's stance on arming the slaves near the end of the war, the debates in the Confederate Congress over whether to arm slaves, the secret negotiations with the North (Hampton Roads, etc., Davis's secret letter to Lincoln) which are all well established historical fact and not revisionist in any sense. > > > > >>Slavery was also defeated in part by the course of social changes in the >>South, to the extent that by war's end, the South was ready to abandon >>slavery in exchange for independence. But since slavery was the cause >>of the separation (the "cornerstone"), this was not a logical way to win >>the war. >> >> > >This is revisionist drivel. Where did you read this, please? > > One of the most telling signs that the war had undermined Southern "family values" was the high desertion rate in 1864-65, after wives wrote their husbands at the front telling them that they would starve to death unless they came home. Many deserted. The "Cause" led to the near-total destruction of the South, much as Alexander Stephens had predicted during the secession debates. > > >>The Civil War had the effect of completely undermining ALL the so-called >>values that the South held dear at the start of the war. The South >>wanted to remain a largely rural, agricultural economy, where a class of >>aristocrats derived their wealth off the backs of slaves. In order to >>fight the war, the South had to rapidly industrialize and try to become >>a manufacturing economy with large cities that would've utilized the >>skilled labor of workers. >> >> > >Oversimplification of the highest order here. Can one realistically say what the "the South" wanted to do. Didn't "the South" contend that what they were fighting for was individual state's rights? > State's Rights was the thin veneer they applied to Slave Rights. And the Confederate government found that they could not fight the war by adhering to "state's rights," therefore they had to nationalize the Southern railroad system, and time and time again took rights away from the states while empowering a stronger central government, just like in the North. Read Stephens' speech to the Georgia legislature during the seccession debates and see if this is not true. > > >>By refusing to abandon slavery at the start of the war, the South >>suffered total devastation by the end... >> >> > >I believe you may be confusing cause and effect here again, Dave. This is a classic Post Hoc logical fallacy. You assume that since A. occurred before B., then A. is the cause of B. Can you prove that the first event precipitated the other? > >Thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts on these issues. > > >-Julius > > > > > > > > > >>-Dave ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #292 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)