From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #282 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, May 13 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 282 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: U.S. political, media content (njc) pc ["kakki" ] Today in History: May 12 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] kakki constitution ["mike pritchard" ] Mothers Day NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] "Yesterday and Today", in praise of, njc ["Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["Mike Pritchard" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["kakki" ] Alms for the poor? njc ["Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Looking For Joni BBC IN Concert on Video [PAUL LOGAN ] the BEST Joni cover [anne@sandstrom.com] Gregg & Maggie Cagno hitched at last [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Gregg & Maggie Cagno hitched at last (njc) [lfye@cresapartners.com] Re: kakki constitution, njc [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: kakki constitution, njc [] wedding songs NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc [lfye@cresapartners.com] Re: kakki constitution, njc [] David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" [Little Bird ] Re: wedding songs NJC ["Rache A" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: kakki constitution/now slave owners njc [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["kakki" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: kakki constitution, njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Abe njc ["kakki" ] Re: Abe njc [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: wedding song ["Maggie McNally" ] Re: kakki constitution and getting the boot, njc [] Re: kakki constitution, njc [] "That Song About the Midway" ["Kerry Berghoff" ] Re: "Yesterday and Today", in praise of, njc [Randy Remote ] Re: David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] And how great is this lyric? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] bev! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: And how great is this lyric? [RoseMJoy@aol.com] bjork njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Little Green/Circle Game [Bobsart48@aol.com] FWD URL: The Be Good Tanyas - Bio NJC [hirahara@sierratel.com] RE: And how great is this lyric? ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: kakki constitution, njc ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Abe njc ["kakki" ] political tidbits NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: kakki constitution njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:29:49 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: U.S. political, media content (njc) pc Lama wrote: > I'll take this one. (That's a cue to my tag-team partners in the 'JMDL Boy-Girl Politically Moderate Choir'.) I think the choir has been scaled down to a duo at this point ;-) > mike in barcelona said, > >>>>>and would that be Thomas Jefferson, who owned slaves and backed legislation to > protect the rights of the slave owning classes and who presided over a country > that defined black people in its constitution as worth 60% of a white person?>>>> Mike can you point me to the part of the US constitution that provides this definition? My vague recall from history classes years ago is that the members of Continental Congress, in plotting the course of independence during the Continenal Convention, wanted slavery abolished and wanted to deny future statehood to any colony which did not comply. Most of the original 13 colonies agreed but a few of the Southern ones would not agree and this ultimately led to the Civil War. That's a simple wrap-up, I know, but the general goal was always to rid the country of involuntary servitude. Regarding media ownership, it seems the current issues/dilemmas stem in part from the 1996 Telecommunications Act. I would have to do a lot of reading up on the issues involved to make a decision about it, but I found a transcript of a hearing on broadcast ownership rules this past February where several groups weighed in on the debate: http://www.fcc.gov/ownership/richmond022703.html It also states that every two years the FCC is required by Congress to examine its broadcast ownership rules and that courts in the past few years have ruled against some of them. This may be in part what is driving the rule changes. It also seems that there is a built in system of checks and balances with the review every two years and ever-evolving court rulings, i.e. nothing it ever set in stone, especially when it comes to protecting the public interest. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:05:34 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: May 12 1983: Joni performed in Stockholm, Sweden - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:57:49 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: kakki constitution Mike wrote: >> and would that be Thomas Jefferson, who owned slaves and backed legislation to protect the rights of the slave owning classes and who presided over a country that defined black people in its constitution as worth 60% of a white person?<< Kakki replied >>Mike can you point me to the part of the US constitution that provides this definition? << Article 1, section 2, paragraph 3 states: "Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." This was changed by section 2 of Amendment XIV in 1868, 81 years after the signing of the Constitution, when 17 presidents had been in office, including Jefferson. The amendment was rejected by Kentucky and New Jersey, apologies to Lama and Rosalita for my bad taste in mentioning this. There is a good discussion on this by Naomi Zack in 'Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality: The Big Questions', edited by Zack, Shrage, and Sartwell, and also, less well discussed, in my own "One drop of blood" article. mike in barcelona, winners of the European Basketball League. NPIMH We Are The Champions - thousands of people ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:54:34 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: Mothers Day NJC There have been lovely posts and lyrics about Mothers Day...Mothers Day in the UK is in March and so we were a few months ahead. . Ah MOthers......This is where I sort of came in to posting on the JMDL when there was a discussion about grief and Truly Madly Deeply....(was it really ony in January!!!) and I posted about losing my mum. My mothers' body died on 19th May 2000. I say that, as I do truly believe, that however comfortable her body was to hug, however much the shape of her filled something in my horizon that I miss in the catch of my breath, however much I remember her careful ministrations of both love and caring, the body was just the means of transport for her soul and personality. For even as she has left my father and my sisters and brother and the grand children without her physical presence, she is there in all our faces, our rememberings of her, (whether they be of her total loopiness and mad logic or of her real kindness), and in her poetry, pieces of artwork, gigantic collection of books, and in the sense of her being still in the house she and my father created as out family home. She had a wonderful smile, and that is how I remember her most. I am thankful that I came home to that smile after school, saw it after the birth of my children and have it plastered over my face as I write this. I know I have been lucky to have had a mother like her. Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:16:14 -0400 From: "Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Yesterday and Today", in praise of, njc Holy. I had forgotten how GREAT this album is. For fun I shuffled the order so it starts in the middle, with "Doctor Robert". It's a shock to segue from that semi-obscure track into "Yesterday". I never noticed that George Martin adds some reverb to the vocal for about 2 seconds. Then it disappears. It's sweetening I never "caught" before and it completely covers whatever Sir Martin wanted to intended to cover. Remember "Your Bird Can Sing"? It sounds like this must have been the first album after George Harrison hung out with Roger (Jim) McGuinn. They even put a "byrd" in the title. George is playing that jangly sound for sure. That's a Rickenbacker? Lama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:22:53 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: to people in/from scotland NJC do you know a song called *in praise of old women*? i heard once in an old movie with emma thompson, i think it was called the winter guest, which took place in scotland. i loved that tune. it was sung by a little kid. i bought the soundtrack but it wasn't included. is it a folk song? wally, downloading a whole stack of songs from the british isles, especially welsh songs. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:27:57 -0400 From: "Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Mike can you point me to the part of the US constitution that provides thisWow, he's GOOD, Kakki! I'm steering clear. This one's on YOU girlfriend. I suppose you can't "spin" that Native Americans got a great deal from the Framers...... Sorry all. Sick humor. Ashara, help us out! Was Jefferson a democracy loving patriot or an oppressive slave owner? Lama Mike wrote: Article 1, section 2, paragraph 3 states: "Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." This was changed by section 2 of Amendment XIV in 1868, 81 years after the signing of the Constitution, when 17 presidents had been in office, including Jefferson. The amendment was rejected by Kentucky and New Jersey, apologies to Lama and Rosalita for my bad taste in mentioning this. There is a good discussion on this by Naomi Zack in 'Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality: The Big Questions', edited by Zack, Shrage, and Sartwell, and also, less well discussed, in my own "One drop of blood" article. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:31:29 +0000 From: "Mike Pritchard" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Hi Lama, Could you explain why 'uppity' is charged. I am not aware of any 'extra' meaning in the word as I used it the other day, although I was, as you said, being deliberately argumentative. How is 'uppity' different? Mike - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" To: "list" ,"mike pritchard" CC: "Ashara" ,"Randy Remote" ,"kakki" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:27:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mta03.fuse.net ([216.68.1.123]) by mc7-f10.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 12 May 2003 03:28:01 -0700 Received: from jlamadoo ([216.68.35.12]) by mta03.fuse.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with SMTP id <20030512102759.KVYF20135.mta03.fuse.net@jlamadoo>; Mon, 12 May 2003 06:27:59 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Q1OJDRSDidP Message-ID: <001601c31871$28ac08c0$0c2344d8@jlamadoo> References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Return-Path: lamadoo@fuse.net X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 May 2003 10:28:01.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A1360F0:01C31871] Mike can you point me to the part of the US constitution that provides thisWow, he's GOOD, Kakki! I'm steering clear. This one's on YOU girlfriend. I suppose you can't "spin" that Native Americans got a great deal from the Framers...... Sorry all. Sick humor. Ashara, help us out! Was Jefferson a democracy loving patriot or an oppressive slave owner? Lama Mike wrote: Article 1, section 2, paragraph 3 states: "Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." This was changed by section 2 of Amendment XIV in 1868, 81 years after the signing of the Constitution, when 17 presidents had been in office, including Jefferson. The amendment was rejected by Kentucky and New Jersey, apologies to Lama and Rosalita for my bad taste in mentioning this. There is a good discussion on this by Naomi Zack in 'Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality: The Big Questions', edited by Zack, Shrage, and Sartwell, and also, less well discussed, in my own "One drop of blood" article. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:56:22 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Lama wrote: >Wow, he's GOOD, Kakki! I'm steering clear. Yes, he's good (thanks Mike) but I'm with your original point on this - Jefferson and others worked with what they could in a formative representational democracy at the time. That original constitutional clause came about as a result of the Great Compromise, which sought to unite the Northern free and abolitionist states with the Southern states which would not abolish slavery. Trivia question for bonus points - which progressive civil rights political party founded in the mid-1850s had the first elected African American representatives, fought to bring about the 13th and 14th amendments and led the way towards fighting and securing womens' right to vote? ;-) > Ashara, help us out! Was Jefferson a democracy loving patriot or an oppressive slave owner? I didn't know Ashara voted for him! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:01:07 -0400 From: "Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Alms for the poor? njc Analog disaster: I fitted an upgraded counterweight to the tonearm, balanced it, & set the tracking force. It was about 1AM when, using one hand, I unlatched the tonearm from it's anchor. That was a bad idea. I can see that now. When I unlatched the arm with one hand, the spring tension of the catch LAUNCHED THE ARM TOWARDS THE SPINDLE. The arm executed a graceful, slow motion arc. The stylus dipped into the felt mat. And stayed there. The momementum of the arm buried the stylus. Deep. Then the arm rebounded upward and outward, bending the cantilever in a most unnatural and utterly permenant way. In slow motion I said, "NO-ooooo-oooooooooo oooooo-oooooooh... crap." Before anyone points out that this never happens with a CD player, let's get this straight: vintage Beatles LPs don't fit in the drawer. Neither do Japanese pressings of MINGUS. Lama, who's pulling up the couch cushions this morning. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 04:16:08 -0700 From: PAUL LOGAN Subject: Looking For Joni BBC IN Concert on Video Hi--I am looking for "Joni Mitchell sings Joni Mitchell"--BBC In Concert 1970 on video tape or dvd-r with James Taylor. Will trade for or purchase---have several BBC In Concert videos for trade off DirecTV--excellent quality. paullog@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:22:23 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: What's your favorite feature of JMDL.com? njc That one is easy. Bree McDonough. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:28:04 -0500 From: est86mlm@ameritech.net Subject: Joni/James Perma-Vine If you're without a CD burner I have a burned copy to send out pronto! I have burned 4 copies for 4 burnerless JMDLr's. I also have the original disc to send on to someone who has a burner and willing to continue the Vine. Let me know if this is you! I'm on digest so if I'm 24-hours slow in responding you'll know why. Here is the track information: 1) That Song About the Midway Joni 2) The Gallery Joni 3) Rainy Day Man James 4) Steamroller Blues James 5) The Priest Joni 6) Carey Joni 7) Carolina in My Mind James 8) California Joni + James 9) For Free Joni + James 10) The Circle Game Joni + James 11) You Can Close Your Eyes Joni + James 12) Hunter Joni 13) River Joni 14) My Old Man Joni 15) A Case of You Joni 16) Carey (unedited intro) Joni Laura in Illinois ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:32:10 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: gladys knight njc Have read of all the concerts that my fellow JMDL's have gone to in their lives and have been very jealous. Finally, out of oblivion, although I miss it much, and tomorrow night is Gladys in Milwaukee. Excited more than I can write here and yesterday to get myself even more prepared I read her book. It was interesting and she is not quite the goody two shoes that her image portrayed to me over the years although she still seems a fine lady. I think I like her more after reading about her, warts and all. She paints a very poor picture of Motown and of the treatment of many of the stars there. It was she, not Diana Ross, that originally notified the brass of the Jackson Five. That was propaganda put out by Gordy himself for Diana. Also read that she and the Pips had the original version of 'heard it through the grapevine', not marvin Gaye. Always thought it was the other way around. She wrote very candidly about her gambling addiction as well and after reading that info I am perplexed as to why she is singing where she is in Milwaukee. It is a casino. I wonder if she has fallen back into that game. I am looking forward to gambling myself for the first time. Anyway, just some thoughts. np: motown compilation. mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 05:59:59 -0700 (PDT) From: anne@sandstrom.com Subject: the BEST Joni cover I agree that Bonnie's TSATM is up there, BUT by far hands down no question about it... The best Joni cover is Tom Rush's Urge for Going. It's the one Joni song for which I prefer the cover to Joni's version. Another personal favorite of mine was our own Michael Paz doing Amelia at the second NE JoniFest. Brought me to tears... Actually MANY of the covers by our own list members are stunning! lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:09:34 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Gregg & Maggie Cagno hitched at last sorry for the njc, but this is too happy an event to keep from the Joni only folks as many of u know them and love them as I do...Gregg sent me some more pics of the wedding in a very large doc.file...I will get these up somewhere this evening....she looks beautiful...and Gregg well we all know he's a looker;~) In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:11:41 -0400 From: lfye@cresapartners.com Subject: Re: Gregg & Maggie Cagno hitched at last (njc) I'm very happy for Gregg and Maggie!! : ) And not as happy for many of the rest of us ... ; ) Myself included, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:14:33 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Lama said: << Ashara, help us out! Was Jefferson a democracy loving patriot or an oppressive slave owner? >> Not sure why you asked this question to me, Lama. I do not get into politcal discussions on the JMDL, nor have I ever in the 6 or so years I've been here. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:17:26 -0400 From: Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc > Trivia question for bonus points - which progressive > civil rights political party founded in the mid-1850s had the first elected > African American representatives, fought to bring about the 13th and 14th > amendments and led the way towards fighting and securing womens' right to > vote? ;-) I haven't posted to the list in...well...probably two or more years, but I just had to answer this question - - and the answer is (I'm fairly sure) - -The Republican Party If I'm right, whada I get with my bonus points??? Bev Wolfe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:38:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: wedding songs NJC NRH is my fav joni song to sing these days - i love that line too...& love singing it with my hubby usually right there beside me (although it usually ends up being the bass player though i do love him lol...because jeff hasn't figured out a harp part yet if that would even work)... the very wise man we choose to marry us (who has married many couples) told us that the words in our vows (we wrote them) were so important because he has seen how the words spoken are very much what sets the tone for the entire marriage (which is what promted me to add i promise to always love you! lol)...so i would think the songs would also be part of that...so my suggestion would be if you really loved one of her songs but some of the lyrics weren't exactly what works for you, leave them out for the ceremony (if this is possible to do, are you using a cd or is someone performing?)...careful in those heels! >I do! I do! (want a Joni song!). I agree with Andrew that there is a lot of darkness and inappropriate wedding day analysis in her love songs; a perspective that never really worked well for me since I don't see things the same way that she seems to see. I also thought of using "Night Ride Home." There is such a quiet sincerity in the "I love the man beside me" line. < www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:45:59 -0400 From: lfye@cresapartners.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc >> Trivia question for bonus points - which progressive civil rights >> political party founded in the mid-1850s had the first elected >> African American representatives, fought to bring about the 13th >> and 14th amendments and led the way towards fighting and >> securing womens' right to vote? ;-) > I haven't posted to the list in...well...probably two or more years, but I > just had to answer this question - - and the answer is (I'm fairly > sure) - -The Republican Party I'm trying so hard to bite my virtual tongue but it's just not working ... Would that be the same Republican party that is currently opposed to affirmative action at the University of Michigan? Lori NPIMH: Abraham Lincoln singing, "The Times They Are A-Changin'" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:03:40 -0400 From: Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Lori wrote: >>Would that be the same Republican party that is currently opposed to affirmative action at the University of Michigan? Ironically so - - yup >>NPIMH: Abraham Lincoln singing, "The Times They Are A-Changin'" Abraham Lincoln - - Republican ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:14:08 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" On his new release titled "timeagain", hitting the shops June 3. Cool! Chaka Khan/Chaka Khan's also covered it, as has Kristen Vigard on the "Grace Of My Heart" soundtrack. Looks like MfM is the cover of choice on TTT! :~) Bob NP: Pearl Jam, "not for you" Seattle 11/6/00 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Bird Subject: Re: David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" > Looks like MfM is the cover of choice on > TTT! :~) This will probably make Bob squirm in his seat but I think Bjork would do an absolutely incredible cover of this song. It's as if it was written for her, in fact. Hey, she's a Scorpio too. And I'm sure she likes cats. - -Andrew __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:46:25 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: barry njc Major coup again, at least for lovers of mr. manilow. no snickers please. then again, go again. he he. just found 'this one's for you' on cd here at the local recycle bin. damn, damn, damn. smiles from ear to ear. np: the above mack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:51:39 -0400 From: "Rache A" Subject: Re: wedding songs NJC MG wrote: >I do! I do! (want a Joni song!). I agree with Andrew that there is a lot of darkness and inappropriate wedding day analysis in her love songs; a perspective that never really worked well for me since I don't see things the same way that she seems to see. I also thought of using "Night Ride Home." There is such a quiet sincerity in the "I love the man beside me" line. OTOH, what I really want is a jazzy, upbeat tune that makes me almost want to skip down the aisle, which I do need to be wary about, though, because part of the "aisle" is a ramp and I'll be wearing rare heels. Well Solid Love is pretty good, more upbeat, and shows the positive side of love.. I've been trying to think of all the names mentioned in Joni's songs, and without looking through lyrics already have nearly 90 (about a third from HOSL & DJRD)...I don't know DED really, so I don't have any from that, and not too many from NRH (i couldn't think of ones that aren't in the titles other than Boticelli), and only 2 from Clouds - can anyone think of more? The only names she used more than once in different songs that I found are Jesus (mentioned 4 times), her name, Mary, and Betsy. who is Betsy, are both mentions of that name the same person? She speaks in Song for Sharon and Moon at the Window. Maybe I should start doing some work now... Rachel _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:26:54 -0400 From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc I am not political, nor am I attempting to start a discussion, but couldnt' he be both a slave owner and a democracy loving patriot? Blair NP: NEw Year-The Breeders >Lama said: > ><< Ashara, help us out! Was Jefferson a democracy loving patriot or an >oppressive slave owner? >> > >Not sure why you asked this question to me, Lama. I do not get into >politcal >discussions on the JMDL, nor have I ever in the 6 or so years I've been >here. > >Hugs, >Ashara _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:42:34 -0400 From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution/now slave owners njc About Thos. Jefferson, Blair asks: << couldnt' he be both a slave owner and a democracy loving patriot? >> This reminds me of a lecture I went to see with the writer/American history bigrapher David McCollough about ten years ago. During a question and answer period, someone asked him how slave owners from the 19th century could be viewed as anything but evil, hateful people. McCollough answered that although it is hard for people in the present day to think of slave owners as anything but evil, for the most part they were just average joes (paraphrasing here, of course). He then said something that has always stuck with me: He said that although we might think of ourselves as good people, future generations will probably consider us all as bad as the slave owners for what we're doing to the environment. - --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:34:56 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Bev, I can't believe this brought you out of a 2+ year lurkdom! Good to hear from you! You are correct. > If I'm right, whada I get with my bonus points??? A virtual toy elephant and a welcome back hug ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:13:01 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc someone throw her a Joni boot In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:20:37 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc In a message dated 5/12/03 8:14:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RoseMJoy@aol.com writes: > someone throw her a Joni boot > > I meant a bootleg for clarification...LMAO In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:47:16 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Abe njc Lori wrote: > I'm trying so hard to bite my virtual tongue but it's just not working ... That's OK - don't bite it! > Would that be the same Republican party that is currently opposed to > affirmative action at the University of Michigan? Point taken. > NPIMH: Abraham Lincoln singing, "The Times They Are A-Changin'" LOL You know I can picture old Abe singing it! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:32:18 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Abe njc I wish we had Presidents like we use to.... In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:04:54 -0400 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: wedding song I've got to get out of this office and go home to rest, but I was trying to wade through the always-present backlog and spotted a few wedding song messages. First of all MG, CONGRATS! I had no idea. When Alex and I were married (more than 12 years ago, now), I wanted a Joni song - and had a friend who was game to sing/play guitar for whatever I wanted. I had her do "Love," the standard wedding reading. I know, not Joni's words, but she had the courage to take them and make them her own. I regret to say that I don't have a recording of my dear friend Linda singing that song just for us, but it resonated for us right through to this day. BTW, I was just in NYC for a family wedding and got to see Patrick (hi, Patrick!) and Kay (ditto!) for an evening. Patrick is a fantastic NYC tour guide, and the two of them were just fabulous to hang and be in the big, fast city with. Then the next day I was on to the wedding where the bride's cousin read the Corinthian's reading on which "Love" was based. Now that I have turned it full circle, may I go home? Maggie Please come to Jonifest!! -----Original Message----- From: mia ortlieb [mailto:hvnphun16@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:51 AM To: MGVal@aol.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: re:wedding song Hi MG, Have you considered playing "Underneath the Streetlight" for your wedding? This is a very upbeat love song, and it won't offend any wise guys that may be sitting in the Chapel. Lyrics: Yes I do I love you! I swear on the stars above I do! I swear on the streetlight on the corner Shoving back the shadows! One shadow cursing Another shadow laughing Underneath the streetlight I don't know where they're coming from I just see 'em passing Underneath the streetlight Yes I do I love you! I swear on the buildings above I do I swear on a billion yellow And T.V. blue windows Gayboys with their pants so tight Out in the neon light Underneath the street light A m-m-madman - madman Kicking over garbage cans Underneath the streetlight Yes I do I love you! I swear on the blinkin' planes above I do I swear on the truck at the stoplight With his airbrakes moaning All night the trucks roll Up to the tunnel-toll Underneath the streetlight They come rollin' rollin' Rollin' for a living Underneath the streetlight Yes I do I love you! I swear on the disco sparkle dark I do I swear on the be-bop boys Chasing the black bird Rock 'n roll broadcast Movin' up now full blast Underneath the streetlight They come dancin' dancin' Really rock 'n rollin' Underneath the streetlight Yes I do I love you I really love you Yes I do yes I do I love you! Mia _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:36:04 -0400 From: Subject: Re: kakki constitution and getting the boot, njc Joisy-Girl -- I no'd whatcha meant....I'll take a boot as long as it's got stiletto heels and maybe one to match, a bootleg - - or both! Either'd be fine Bev - - who nose your humor from lurking...uh, and stuff....and yes....that wuz a LMAO moment...it's weird, but no clarification was needed >>I meant a bootleg for clarification...LMAO ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:36:53 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Abe njc > I wish we had Presidents like we use to.... > Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here. I believe Honest Abe only decided to free the slaves when the Civil War had drug on so long that he needed to do something to hasten it's end. He figured it would cripple the Confederacy sufficiently to bring it to its knees and deal a final death blow to any hope on the South's part that England or France would ever aid them in their Cause. He was also of the opinion at one time that the slaves should all be sent back to Africa once they were freed. He did, of course, change his mind on that point. Well that's what Ken Burns said anyway! Mark E. in Seattle (back on NJC) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:43:36 -0400 From: Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc > A virtual toy elephant and a welcome back hug ;-) Awww, gee! Thanks, Kakki...hugs are always welcome!! Hmmm...this is a hard decision. I'm not sure if I want a boot, a bootleg, or a virtual toy elephant. Wondering if the toy elephant winds up and plays Joni songs? B P.S. This, of course is a rhetorical question ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:38:48 -0700 From: "Kerry Berghoff" Subject: "That Song About the Midway" Hello all! After reading about people's favorite Joni covers, I had to chime in with those of you who love Bonnie Raitt's version of "That Song About the Midway" and confess to a moment of naiveti. I remember the first time I heard it (well, maybe the second), thinking about how clever and vivid the lyrics are, and I thought how Joni-esque the song is. especially the line about "he stood out like a ruby in a black man's ear." Then I found out that Joni had written it! Duh! Happy listening, Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:48:50 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: "Yesterday and Today", in praise of, njc Lama-Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Holy. I had forgotten how GREAT this album is. For fun I shuffled the order so it starts in the middle, with "Doctor Robert". This song is about the dentist that surreptitiously dosed John and George with LSD for the first time. > > It's a shock to segue from that semi-obscure track into "Yesterday". I never noticed that George Martin adds some reverb to the > vocal for about 2 seconds. Then it disappears. It's sweetening I never "caught" before and it completely covers whatever Sir > Martin wanted to intended to cover. Alot of that went on. Then again, Y&T was a Capitol compilation of singles and tracks pulled from Revolver and Rubber Soul. Capitol actually added extra reverb to some of the Beatles master takes for the US releases. Without comparing it to the British Yesterday (from Help!) I couldn't say. Alot of the mixes were done quickly, so there are mistakes in places that they just left in. But as you say, it could've been to cover up a technical problem. I haven't noticed it before. > Remember "Your Bird Can Sing"? It sounds like this must have been the first album after George Harrison hung out with Roger (Jim) > McGuinn. They even put a "byrd" in the title. George is playing that jangly sound for sure. That's a Rickenbacker? I've always loved this one tho John considered it a throwaway. The lead guitar part is John and George both playing parallel harmony parts on electric guitars. By this time (Revolver) they had guitars by Rick., Gretsch, Gibson, Fender, Epiphone...hard to say what was used. The Rickenbacker 12 string electric, by the way, was used by The Beatles before The Byrds. In fact the company presented The Beatles with the 12 string model just after they developed it. McGuinn (or was it Crosby?) has said that they became intrigued with the instrument after seeing A Hard Days Night. It's amazing how well Martin's mixes hold up considering the primitive (by today's standards) equipment that they were using at the time. RR, who's been reading the recent big book "Beatles Gear"-an in depth look at the instruments they made their music with. Can you tell? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:53:19 -0700 From: "Kerry Berghoff" Subject: Wedding march MG- After reading your posting about using a Joni song for your march, possibly "Love," I went and listened to it again, and it seems like a great choice. Beautiful and slow, upbeat, and with a wonderful message. Sounds like a very original and meaningful idea. Best of luck and congrats! Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:09:29 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: David Sanborn covers "Man From Mars" In a message dated 5/12/2003 5:54:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, littlebird3333@yahoo.com writes: > This will probably make Bob squirm in his seat but I > think Bjork would do an absolutely incredible cover of > this song. It's as if it was written for her, in fact. > I actually have a broad mind...I've heard some Bjork stuff that I like. I think many of Joni's songs would suit her. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:13:52 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: And how great is this lyric? "Love's a repetitious danger" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:15:47 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: bev! njc bev, never do that to us again! you're so funny, we want you out of lurkdom. want to sign up for the birthday greeting list? i can pass the info to the birthday fairy. or maybe you don't know what i'm talking about. wally - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de thefishpond@cfl.rr.com Enviado el: Lunes, 12 de Mayo de 2003 11:44 p.m. Para: kakki; joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: kakki constitution, njc > A virtual toy elephant and a welcome back hug ;-) Awww, gee! Thanks, Kakki...hugs are always welcome!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:18:54 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: And how great is this lyric? She sorta got that from the I Ching...but i concur it's great...and so feckin true I ain't accustomed to it yet r u? btw...I actually spoke to the Blindman on the phone today...we're makin' progress....;~) In the morning there are lovers in the street They look so high You brush against a stranger And you both apologize ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:20:30 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: bjork njc have you all noticed how many people are doing bjork covers? madonna, of all people. i believe bjork is one of those artists you have to *get*. all these scorpio women -- joni, rickie lee, bjork, bonnie. they truly have some key to the mysteries of creation. wally, waxing mystical and scorpio obsessed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:21:07 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green/Circle Game Thanks for the 'guess' and the extra info, Bob. My weak and lazy mind was finally sufficiently humiliated that I began the heavy research and discovered the Circle Game was copyrighted in 166, while Little Green was 1967. Sounds like you are right (I doubt that by then Joni wasted any time copyrighting her songs before they got 'covered' :-) ). Still, that said, I thought there might have been some evidence to that contrary, such as Little Green having been recorded on a bootleg from the Coffe House era, before Circle Game. Also, Circle Game was recorded before Little Green, which is why I felt disappointed for a long time with Little Green - it felt like an inferior 'copy' of the first, that disappointing 'repeating the formula' thing that Joni is so well known for eschewing. That changed for me when I later came to understand the lyrical significance of Little Green. I did not know about the medley. They are more that in the same tuning - they have very, very similar chord structures. At times you could simpley toggle from one song to the next, if you felt like it. Bobsart Bob Muller replied I certainly don't know for sure...my guess would be "Circle Game", although she may have written the two pretty much simultaneously. They're written in the same tuning...at least they seem to be; she's performed the two as a medley which is very moving. If they are in the same tuning originally, that's possibly an indication that they were written about the same time. ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 2003 20:23:13 -0800 From: hirahara@sierratel.com Subject: FWD URL: The Be Good Tanyas - Bio NJC The Be Good Tanyas Have you heard these women? They are great, I became an instant fan.Go to http://www.begoodtanyas.com/begood.php?loc=bio Caught Jonatha on PBS the other night doing War. Spring has sprung in Yosemite. Love & Peace, Barbara Hirahara NP:Jericho Miles of Aisles Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:23:11 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: And how great is this lyric? that line is such a favorite that in my wild days i used to write it on walls and carve it on tables. you know, restrooms, school desks, park benches. GRAFFITI too! what an extraordinary youngster i used to be. w - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de SCJoniGuy@aol.com Enviado el: Martes, 13 de Mayo de 2003 12:14 a.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: And how great is this lyric? "Love's a repetitious danger" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:34:19 -0400 From: Subject: Re: bev! njc >i can pass the info to the > birthday fairy. or maybe you don't know what i'm talking about. > wally Wally, dear! I wuz in lurkdom...not six feet under (although SFU is my mostest favorite tv show) And, I lurked with all my heart...didn't miss a beat > want to sign up for the birthday greeting list? Yup! I gave Rose a list of stuff I wanted, and I ALREADY got it....like within 15 minutes!!!...stuff happens fast here!...what wuz I thinkin'???? sooooo................ January 5th (tell the fairy that it's a long way off....so he/she might wanna put it in his/her database or just put a sticky on the fridge...thanks for passin' on the info)! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:51:15 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: kakki constitution, njc Wasn't the EPA formed during Richard Nixon's administration? If so..pretty progressive and quite gutsy I might add. ANd just today on the front page of the main newspaper in Cincinnati they did a feature on a republican commissioner who beat out the democrat who got tons of money from construction companies because the democrat wanted more subdivisons built..wal-marts etc,. The republican wants more greenspace..less concrete. Yes..the times are a- changin. Bree > > I haven't posted to the list in...well...probably two or more years, but >I > > just had to answer this question - - and the answer is (I'm fairly > > sure) - -The Republican Party > > >I'm trying so hard to bite my virtual tongue but it's just not working ... > >Would that be the same Republican party that is currently opposed to >affirmative action at the University of Michigan? > >Lori > >NPIMH: Abraham Lincoln singing, "The Times They Are A-Changin'" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:04:42 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: barry njc No snickers here. I love that song...chills...longing.. whenever I hear it. Let's us know about the concert. ANd good luck on the gambling! Bree >From: "mack watson-bush" >Reply-To: "mack watson-bush" >To: "joni" >Subject: barry njc >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:46:25 -0500 > >Major coup again, at least for lovers of mr. manilow. no snickers please. >then again, go again. he he. just found 'this one's for you' on cd here >at >the local recycle bin. damn, damn, damn. smiles from ear to ear. > >np: the above > >mack _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:33:55 -0700 From: "kakki" Subject: Re: Abe njc Welcome back to NJC Mark ;-) you wrote: > I believe Honest Abe only decided to free the slaves when the Civil War had drug on so > long that he needed to do something to hasten it's end. Lincoln ran for the Senate in Illinois in 1858 in part on an anti-slavery platform. The Civil War began in mid-1881. Lincoln's primary, initial goal was to save the Union and was not to abolish slavery per se. However, within the first year of the war, in July 1882, he wanted to free the slaves but was advised to wait for a Northern victory. In September 1882, he issued the preliminary emancipation proclamation - the final proclamation came in January 1883. There were certain legal issues involved which tied his hands to some extent because of the war. Remember that several Southern states had seceded, adopted their own constitution, established the Confederate States of America and elected their own president, Jefferson Davis. So he took the gamble to free them in mid-war, but not because he never considered they should be freed. The war was the final result of tensions between the North and South from the beginning of the establishment of the US. From the late 1700s until 1881 many compromises were made to keep the Union together, but the South, in part because a candidate from a fairly new political party which stood against slavery had surprisingly won the election, became increasingly alarmed and self-protective and began the secession movement and the seizure of Federal property in the South. >He figured it would cripple the Confederacy sufficiently to bring it to its knees > and deal a final death blow to any hope on the South's part that > England or France would ever aid them in their Cause. This is true. England and France had long abolished slavery and never would support the South in a fight to preserve it. > He was also of the opinion at one time that the slaves should all be sent back to > Africa once they were freed. He did, of course, change his mind on > that point. I'm sure he had some opinions that would nowadays be considered quite ignorant or racist. But he always believed that slavery was morally wrong and got the gist of it right in the end. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:32:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: political tidbits NJC following up on the recent fcc discussion, other issues of great concern to many are addressed in this article: current environmental, health, & separation of church & state issues...it is alarming...http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15814 went to hear dennis kucinich...althought he's a seasoned politician he sounded like a spiritual/philosopy lecturer which i must say is REFRESHING! don't know what his chances are of making the democratic candidate but i applaud his vision...as a congress person he sits on one of the defense sub committees- he said the pentagon has 3 TRILLION that is unaccounted for... after 9/11 when everyone was concerned about safety & security there was a resolution up before congress regarding these issues...at the last minute it was pulled & the patriot act replaced it...he said most of our reps in congress NEVER EVEN READ IT...btw, he said he wouldn't vote on anything he hadn't read ... he should have addressed the reasons why he once was not in favor of a woman's right to choose, as a peace lover, vegan i would understand if his views fell into the category of not killing but he did not address this past thinking at all...he did say that his woman friends convinced him that pro choice was the right thing... i hope this does not raise the ire of those who don't want politics discussed here...i feel that (to quote jackson browne), there are "lives in the balance" and "wake up" www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:45:48 -0400 From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: kakki constitution njc While not disputing the gist of your point below, Mike, that the U.S. Constitution is essentially a pro-slavery document, I believe your contention that the Constitution "defined black people ...as worth 60% of a white person" is somewhat inaccurate. Your citation below makes a distinction between "free persons" and "all other persons." Keep in mind that many black people were free persons at the time the Constitution was drafted. The Revolution itself made it possible for Blacks to gain their freedom in at least two ways: from the flight of a Tory enslaver, or from faithful service by the Black person in the Revolutionary Army. Some 5000 Black people fought in the Army, of whom many were slaves who subsequently petitioned for and were granted freedom. It seems to me erroneous and unnecessary to construe Article 1, section 2, paragraph 3 so that it refers to the human "worth" of the 750,000 slaves of the time, when in fact it speaks to mathematical matters of taxability and representation. The circumstances surrounding the vile institution of slavery itself speaks volumes on the inhumanity of the enslavers. Jefferson himself wrote the following, with regard to legalized slave ownership, in "Notes on Virginia" (1781): "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever... The almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest." - -Julius > Mike wrote: > >> and would that be Thomas Jefferson, who owned slaves and backed legislation > to protect the rights of the slave owning classes and who presided over a > country that defined black people in its constitution as worth 60% of a white > person?<< > > Kakki replied > >>Mike can you point me to the part of the US constitution that provides this > definition? << > > Article 1, section 2, paragraph 3 states: > "Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several > states which may be included within this Union, according to their respective > numbers, which shall be determined by adding the whole number of free persons, > including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians > not taxed, three fifths of all other persons." > This was changed by section 2 of Amendment XIV in 1868, 81 years after the > signing of the Constitution, when 17 presidents had been in office, including > Jefferson. The amendment was rejected by Kentucky and New Jersey, apologies to > Lama and Rosalita for my bad taste in mentioning this. There is a good > discussion on this by Naomi Zack in 'Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality: The > Big Questions', edited by Zack, Shrage, and Sartwell, and also, less well > discussed, in my own "One drop of blood" article. > > mike in barcelona, winners of the European Basketball > League. > NPIMH We Are The Champions - thousands of people ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #282 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)