From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2003 #244 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 15 2003 Volume 2003 : Number 244 Sign up now for JoniFest 2003! http://www.jonifest.com ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams) [OzWoman321@aol.com] Re: daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ESSO BLUE NJC ["Lucy Hone" ] Re: When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams)njc [colin ] Re: ESSO BLUE NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] the parrot the parrot! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] to MG njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC ["ron" ] Re: When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams) NJC [Susan Guzzi ] Re:(NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Re:(NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? [Murphycopy@aol.c] RE: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY ["theodore" ] Re: (NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? [colin ] Re: Ms & Ps NJC [colin ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: "Exxon Blue" (njc) ["Kate Bennett" ] dylan & ginsberg njc ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: nambla - njc [colin ] Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC [colin ] Joni and My Media ["Jerry Notaro" ] The Kinks' song about the suburbs (tangential JC) ["Timothy Spong" ] RE: Childhood Sexuality NJC ["mike pritchard" ] Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC [colin ] Re: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? [SoulQuest7@aol.com] Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: men and boys... NJC ["theodore" ] Re: Re:NAMBLA, njc ["mack watson-bush" ] Re: Ms & Ps NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure [hell ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #130 "Exxon Blue" [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:04:56 EDT From: OzWoman321@aol.com Subject: When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams) Hello, All - Susan and Colin's comments... > >Actually and officially declaring myself "soft butch" > > > i guess that makes me a hard femme! ...in addition to this recent gender identification thread, made me think of the following - we really *do* have more similarities than differences, I believe... When I Was A Boy Dar Williams I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand I said I was a boy; I'm glad he didn't check. I learned to fly, I learned to fight I lived a whole life in one night We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck. And I remember that night When I'm leaving a late night with some friends And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me I need to find a nice man to walk me home. When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom, Climbed what I could climb upon And I don't know how I survived, I guess I knew the tricks that all boys knew. And you can walk me home, but I was a boy, too. I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bike Riding topless, yeah, I never cared who saw. My neighbor come outside to say, "Get your shirt," I said "No way, it's the last time I'm not breaking any law." And now I'm in a clothing store, and the sign says less is more More that's tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me That can't help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat When I was a boy, see that picture? That was me Grass-stained shirt and dusty knees And I know things have gotta change, They got pills to sell, they've got implants to put in, they've got implants to remove But I am not forgetting That I was a boy too And like the woods where I would creep, it's a secret I can keep Except when I'm tired, except when I'm being caught off guard I've had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds its way To catching fire-flies out in the backyard. And I tell the man I'm with about the other life I lived And I say now you're top gun, I have lost and you have won And he says, "Oh no, no, can't you see When I was a girl, my mom and I we always talked And I picked flowers everywhere that I walked. And I could always cry, now even when I'm alone I seldom do And I have lost some kindness But I was a girl too. And you were just like me, and I was just like you. Susan http://www.heartsdesireconcerts.co m "But truth is just like time, it catches up and it just keeps going..." ~ Dar Williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:10:36 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC In a message dated 4/15/2003 12:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, flopit@mweb.co.za writes: > and can anybody that does listen to it, or has already > heard it elsewhere > please let the rest of us know how it is.......... Will do, Ron...and thanks for the link. I upgraded my AOL account to Broadband last week, and what an amazing difference! Not just in speed, but in the quality of the sound. I had all but forgotten Lanois - he put out two GREAT solo discs, and also had some nice work on the 'Slingblade' soundtrack, and I didn't know if we'd hear from him again other than his producing. His work reminds me a lot of Peter Gabriel, it has that same ethereal quality. Fleetwood Mac's also coming out today, so Nikki & Evian, prepare to twirl! This one's actually supposed to be decent, I'm planning on picking it up later today. Bob NP: Joni, "Magdalene Laundries" Morning Becomes Eclectic '94 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:19:17 +0100 From: "Lucy Hone" Subject: ESSO BLUE NJC ESSO BLUE...Oh Esso there was..... the ad ran "boom boom boom boom, Esso Blue" It was a paraffin that was used in paraffin burner heaters and the Esso man came round to the house. It burned with almost no smell and did not leave smuts. The ad on the telly had a little man made out of flames and I used to get that ad mixed up (tune and hoook wise) with "Opal Fruits, made to make your mouth water.. fresh with the tang of citrus, 4 refreshing fruit flavours. ORANGE LEMON STRAWBERRY LIME....." but I would hear the Esso Blue thing and instantly want to go in to "made to make your mouth water" What sort of a sad git am I that I can remember telly ads from the early 1960's when we didn;t have a telly and I used to go next door or watch it my grandparents house 96 miles away. OK UK JMDL-ers....... who remembers the ads for 1001 carpet cleaner.... Cadburys drinking chocolate, Consulate cigarettes, Plumrose chopped ham and pork and lets not forget Summer County Margarine.... And how come the studio idents for ABC, Anglia and Chiltern telly remain in my head? I need to clear out the brain.... Lucy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:17:50 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams)njc OzWoman321@aol.com wrote: > > >When I Was A Boy >Dar Williams > > > Hi Susan-thanks for posting this appropriate Dar song. Dar is wonderful and certainly can give Joni a run for her money..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:27:25 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: nambla - njc hi >>>>>colin wrote: >>>>>more importnatly, wally, why is the subject of child abuse seen as a 'gay' thread? well, - man/boy would tend to kinda indicate that in this thread it originally was :-) anyway - ive been kind of resisting. even typed up some mails then deleted them. but what the hell - heres my 2c. i had a bad experience at the age of 9 with an adult male lured me into his car on the pretext of being lost, then took me to an isolated spot and started talking about sex, but never did anything physical. the fear i felt was incredibly intense - i cannot even describe it. a few years later i also had a friend whose father used to get drunk and rape her. i have grown up with an absolute horror of child abuse in all its forms. so perhaps my point of view is irreversably slanted, but i sincerely have a great difficulty in imagining any kind of an equitable relationship between an 11 year old and a 22 year old. im not saying it cant exist, im saying that it is outside my experience. it would have to be truly exceptional. but i guess i am prepared to believe that there are those in the world who are ready for sexual encounters at a significantly younger age than most of the rest of us (im quite prepared to believe that wally is one of those -and i mean that nicely and sincerely). im even prepared to believe that there are those in nambla who are quite sincere in their efforts to protect those people who run the risk of imprisonment in order to be able to express their sexuality. but scrapping the age laws altogether is not the way to do it. that *will* just throw the doors wide open to all sorts of predators who would abuse kids. ron np - steve baker - pw botha a trance mix ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:24:28 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: ESSO BLUE NJC Lucy writes: << What sort of a sad git am I that I can remember telly ads from the early 1960's >> Not as sad as this git! I remember ads from the late 50s. ("Charlie says, 'Love my Good 'n Plenty . . .'") And re: Lori's comment about Esso being a Canadian thing . . . not in New England. --Bobi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:32:03 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: the parrot the parrot! njc ron, well, WHAT happened?????? what did you decide to do? i have used the situation as a values clarification exercise with my cambridge certificate students and they want to know what you did in the end. wally, definitely one TIRED teacher that would resort to ANYTHING to keep his class busy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:35:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: to MG njc maryG, i'll take the rolls! (thank you for the collective invitation and for being the JMDL's anima...) love, wally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:40:10 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: daniel lanois' "shine" on streaming audio NJC hi >>>>bob wrote about daniel lanois >>>>> I had all but forgotten Lanois - he put out two GREAT solo discs, and also had some nice work on the 'Slingblade' soundtrack, and I didn't know if we'd hear from him again other than his producing. His work reminds me a lot of Peter Gabriel, it has that same ethereal quality.<<<<< >>>>>chuck wrote >>>>>Thanks for the link I'm on my second time through Shine. I really like it. Sounds like he has a few guests defiantly heard Emmy Lou Harris and Bono. Nice guitar work. Nice and moody bluesy country folky.I will be buying this one for sure. thanks for the info chuck. i have already pre ordered this one so im glad to hear yet another positive opinion. emmy lou is apparently on it, and i would be very surprised if most of the U2 crew didnt put in an appearance. i first saw him on "sessions at west 54th" with emmylou and was hooked. i have both solo albums and love them. i am actually surprised that they didnt do better ,cause virtually everyone who has heard "beauty of winona" has raved about it. (tho the cover dfinitely gets mixed reviews!!!) people seem to be a little more undecided about "acadie" and it took me a bit longer as well - but it is also a great album. and i agree that that soundtrack contributed immensely to the success of "slingblade" so eery and brooding and haunting - perfect for the movie. ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:38:25 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: wearing shots . . . with cinnamon bun content -- njc Winter here in the Northeast has been dragging on since last October. Until today, that is. We've gone right from winter to summer in one turn of the daily calendar page, with today's temps in the mid-70s. It's so hot, I'm wearing shots! (Boston pronunciation for "shorts.") So, Mr. Muller . . . if you're so smahhhht, connect Joni to cinnamon buns! Not "cinnamon," as in she's a friend of Neil Young who recorded "Cinnamon Girl," and not "buns," as in she wrote "Eating muffin buns and berries" in "Sisotowbell Lane" . . . but "cinnamon buns." (Insert maniacal laughter) Okay. Go! --Bobi, magnolias hopeful in what's left of my auburn, graying hair ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:50:14 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: wearing shots . . . with cinnamon bun content -- njc In a message dated 4/15/2003 1:38:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Murphycopy writes: > So, Mr. Muller . . . if you're so smahhhht, connect Joni to > cinnamon buns! Need a good recipe for home-made cinnamon buns? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0913990167/102-4484476-2147365?vi=glance And while you're at Amazon, pick up a Joni CD or 2. Everyone else seems to be! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:06:42 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC loving the momma's & pappa's thread...what beautiful music, poetic lyrics, heavenly harmonies... ps i've had a similar background to those females who grew up playing with the guys- i was the neighborhood organizer of softball games & circuses, plays, etc...i rarely played with dolls...i had a closet full of stuffed animals though...but i grew to cherish & need my female friends so much more after having a son, which of course brings more boys into the house, an ex husband & boyfriends until finally a current husband...also having mostly guys in the band...all my pets are females because i needed that balance! my female dog acts like a male however... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:07:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: When I Was a Boy (Dar Williams) NJC - --- Susan/OzWoman321@aol.com wrote: > ...in addition to this recent gender identification thread, made me think of > the following - we really *do* have more similarities than differences, I > believe... > > > When I Was A Boy > Dar Williams > > I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand > I said I was a boy; I'm glad he didn't check. > I learned to fly, I learned to fight > I lived a whole life in one night > We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck. > And I remember that night > When I'm leaving a late night with some friends > And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me > I need to find a nice man to walk me home. > So in my Never Neverland does that make me Peterless Pan?! DOH! Actually Susan, thanks for posting this and you are right we have more similarities than differences. But thank goodness for the differences, that's what really puts the color on the canvas - bold as it can be sometimes. Always nice to see you post! Peace, Susan The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:06:55 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: "Exxon Blue" (njc) Lori wrote: > I do, although I recall Esso stations being found mostly in > Canada. "Esso" is phoenetic for S.O., or Standard Oil. > I didn't know that! That's like the other day I found out that Arby's was the phoenetic spelling for R.B., or Roast Beef. The things we learn on this list! Happy Tax Day! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:19:08 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: sorrow njc well, ever since i heard joni pronounce it that way i have also...i agree with those who say it is so much more expressive that way...i also have a good friend who grew up in montreal who pronounces it that way too www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:41:17 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re:(NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? Chris writes: > Geez, more messy stinky nasty poop juice all over the jmdl This reminds me, I heard Ben Affleck purchased a $105,000 gem-studded toilet seat for fiancee Jennifer Lopez. Now that's something for the Jonifest raffle !!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:53:00 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Re:(NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? Jimmy writes: << This reminds me, I heard Ben Affleck purchased a $105,000 gem-studded toilet seat for fiancee Jennifer Lopez. >> Yes, Jimmy, but can you imagine the SIZE of that seat? --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:00:20 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY I had never heard of NAMBLA either, if it makes a difference I would like to have sex with a woman, but, this said, is touching or rubbing or licking or whatever you want to do the only sexual contact we have with each other. To my mind someone that wants to give it to me good and hot in the entertainment center may be a homosexual, be he sure ain't my lover! How do boys learn about sex? From women only? From other boys? I don't know, and, I learned something I guess. I do know one thing, that these behaviors vary from culture to culture, and there appears to be some aspect of it that is learned. So if we are in some way engaged at teaching young boys about sexuality, is this not a homosexual act by it's very nature? If this is the case, what is so controversial about showing a younger brother some love so they don't have the same problems we have had. Plus wouldn't it be great if everyone felt like it was ok for them to ask about things, or express their sexual feelings without shame, guilt, embarrassment. I don't see that as being controversial. Women in our society are the carriers of culture. A great deal of responsibility and ritual surrounds the purity of a woman. I'm not putting a value judgment on that. It just seems to be the case, right or wrong. Men and boys are taught they must at least proffer some lip service in regards to the protection of the woman's purity in order to have sex. I'll still respect you in the morning. Ok, the filter here is romantic love, the process and pomp of displaying your intentions and way for the woman to proceed with the relationship without fear of reprisal from the community. When you were sixteen you wanted a car, right? Why? What kind of girl are you going to go out with on the bus? You need a little job, so you can spend a little cash, etc. This is very old school. Nowadays we try to teach kids that sex kills so we all have a stake in ritual purity, it's a health issue. Instead of teaching young women, if you let these evil boys get in your panties you are a slut, and, will wind up being a slum goddess, we introduce the subject as health related. Instead of the strict rites of courtship, we impose a barrier of time, after you go to college, then you make the decision to get married, in the meantime, birth control and safe sex. For the guys, birth control, safe sex, this is what your dick looks like if you aren't careful, plus if you do get a girl pregnant, here is the district attorney, the paternity suit, child support, date rape laws. So we are solid right? We have science to keep us pure, and, the state who will toss you in the pen if try any funny stuff (interesting note that the biggest fear of prison is that men will rape you). The merits of teaching health are great, if sex wasn't so unhealthy we would face a tougher road in the schools. The merits of using the police and the penal system to deter and punish crime are debatable, and, come at a great cost. Which brings us to the next issue which we are no longer allowed to publicly ignore, or, simply condemn without fear of legal reprisal, homosexuality. Being the rational minded, pragmatic, rulers of all that is free the courts have deemed that in spite of all the politically funded science (propaganda) the nod has come down in favor of the overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is a phenomena that is as natural as heterosexuality. In fact the science shows that we are all bisexual in degrees. Now and then we hear rumblings of some new school of science, most likely funded by a political entity, that wants to flip this paradigm, so far no cure for homosexuals. Again the public has a right, and, the schools a responsibility to prevent AIDS by teaching kids about the legitimate risk to their health. The other health issue is mental, psychological, psychosocial, do we teach our kids to feel good about their bodies, themselves? If we do and we cover these topics then we need to teach our young school children that it's ok to be gay! Science confirms it and the state will straight fuck up anyone caught perpetrating crimes on you for it(we know that this is rarity, but that is a problem that you will have to take down the hall.) Once we open the door to mental well being and teach it in the concern for a healthier happier future, then we face a whole host of very real threats that need be addressed, or at least merit discussion in this forum. So we start teaching our girls they don't have to be punching bags. We confront and discuss incest, rape, drug abuse, suicide. We try and be politically correct we try to use terminology that reflects the situation as we understand it versus an older term that by it's nature implies a conclusion that has been shown false by science. So we are in a Shangri-La of progressive, pragmatism, as our politics are brought closer and closer to what our greatest tool western science tells us we can claim as truth. So when a woman wants to know why she makes 76 cents for doing the same work a man does, no longer do we have to come up with statistics to show that because of her hysterical mental state caused by the menstrual flow of blood, and increased hormonal changes induced by the swelling of the nipple during puberty, on average 24 cents is lost out of the dollar because she needs to go potty more than the men. Nope we say right on sister! Now take your silly assed problem down the hall, and go try and get action through the courts, and, by the way you're fired, clean your cubby hole and make some coffee on your way out. So what is the problem? We don't have utopia but we aren't burning witches! Well, the problem is we are facing a huge backlash of people that are so disturbed by the diversity of human behavior and experience and their apparent position in it being discussed as just another way of doing things, that bless their hearts they want to go back to the old way, where if you didn't like something you got all worked up, went to the elders and convinced them indeed its an abomination, and in fact now it isn't just me that's outraged, Jesus himself commands us to burn the witch! The world is flat! Actually its square. So now we have people that pride themselves basically on their disdain of knowledge, and, their love of a certain fictional representation of a simpler time when education meant breaking your spirit, that'll teach you, and achieving agreement by the flat out refusal to give forum to anything, or anyone who threatened the feel good parade of crap science and fairy tale history that made them feel special good and right as they went to work pillaging the environment, killing for peace, or slurping off the public trough, who although most likely are not a majority, have the fervor of the righteously pissed off. Nothing better for a politician than a debate won on emotions puffed up by a nod where appropriate to the application of some scientific voodoo, most likely statistical, figures lie and liars figure, to push the issue to one that is a win win win, because he gets political capital for bringing it up, brings his passion and character to bear on something that seems to be patriotic, and, first and foremost shifts the debate away from the merits of actual policy to the school of thought, or mystery trend that spawned all this confusing debate that keeps you good people away from enjoying TV with your family. Instead of blame the victim, we play blame the teacher, hell, blame learning itself, most people don't understand it hence they won't blink when I tell them what it is, we're not actually going to fund it anyway, so why not have a very high ideal to ramble on about crap like hearts and families, and tradition and history, when we vanquish the great foe of teachers and knowledge that really causes these kids to fuck and kill each other anyway. Yeah that's the ticket, all this cyncical mistrust, I trust the people of America to do what's right, we don't need school's and books, look when we had less schools we had less unwanted pregnancies, correlation really is causation! The world is flat! Whew! Ok ...The world isn't flat! It's Square! We have journeyed now full circle through the mind of a madman, a felon, a seasoned con man, who uses the safety and anonymity of the internet to target the fans of folk rock musicians and warp them towards his evil agenda of self gratification and ritual torment in the name of rock and roll. Ok... that of course is really my suggestion. We tried telling people and even gave them the tools to show the world is round. However how do we proceed when the argument seems to be, "is not." I for one say "is too, look round." "nope, FLAT." After how many thousands of years of civilization, whatever, that is the argument. Is not ... is too ... is not ..is too. so I am telling you the problem with the world is it's square. They got the guns, but, we've got the numbers ... we are never going to get anything accomplished in these square institutions, there is only one way to change society and that is from the ground up. Now we are empowered, we have the ability to be cool to one another to have a refuge outside of squaredom. If you want to make it in the world, you have to play the square game, no more, I might walk out on the street and meet some soft butch hotty with a big mouth who cracks me up, we become friends and start a company that installs horoscope dispensers in elevators, not only do we make a fortune, but, the conversation that is provoked by the reading of horoscopes during an usual time of uncomfortable silence, liberates people to behave and interact in elevators and in fact marriages result and babies ... ok that is a goofy example, but, not without merit. Ok... when your kids go out the door to play, what do they find? The public school? The sex ed teacher? No, think about your own quest for identity. As kids we made our own worlds, this is where we found exactly where the pressure lies. We have with all good intentions left our kids desires in the hands of the porn industry. Left the law of the playground in charge of their ethics. Why? Because we wanted the best for them, and, went to set about doing it within the constraints of squaredom, because it provided security, hedged our fears, and there wasn't much else. Sure we put on a few good rock shows and damn good festivals, but, when it came exodus time, there was the wasteland, no easy street, just history repeating, there is no repetition, only insistence. Since the wizard got busted you know the angels want to wear my red shoes ... so what do we do? Worship the golden calf of our science? The beautiful golden calf of our sexuality? The golden calf of our memories of a wasted youth? Make a god of politics make a god of police float it down the river to where the sewage hits the sea ... Maybe this NAMBLA isn't your thing, however maybe this debate about it's merits will inspire some to step out of squaredom and get together with all the brother's and sister's you know have been dying to meet you ... and let's jump back! Cause there's people outside staring, standing in a trance, and sister's out in the back yard doing her outtasight dance, The mind's true liberation will not be televised, or expressed in words, your mind will be liberated from all that ... well, well, well, when does that happen? Put on your eye shades, put in your ear plugs, you know where to put the cork ... that didn't work ... howabout ... when she wiggle like a glow warm and dance like a spinning top, she got a crazy partner, you ought to see them reel and rock, if she got a dime the music won't ever stop, roll over Beethoven ...dance ...rhythm ... balance the yin and yang ... nourish the soul ... liberate the spirit ... do we need to be afraid? NOOOOOOOO, we need to let it be, he leads me to lie down in green pastures, so lay down your fears, put a little love in your heart, let the motherlovin' sun come shining right on in, and just use my simple test, can you feel it? It doesn't have to make sense, but you got to feel it! How will you know? It's got a back beat, you can't lose it ... took my love over across the tracks ...to hear my man wailing sax ...I must admit they had a rockin band ... they was blowing like a hurricane ... come away come away and we're going just as fast as our feet can fly, catch a ride to the end of the highway, leave a sinking ship behind, come on the rising wind ... Ted said it I believe it so shut up! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of MGVal@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 3:53 AM To: joni@smoe.org; joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: NJC: NAMBLA, ETC, OHMEOHMY My good buddy Lama writes: > Maybe we should start up a really offensive thread by and for heterosexuals. > Are there enough of us on the JMDL to support that? > Now before this goes off into a flame war and while I'm still full throttle into my morning, I'd like to just dash off this quick reply. Back off from this one: all people on all sides. Stop for a second and think that Lama's post is not inspired by a mean streak but more, perhaps, from exasperation. And now, take that one step further and spin it around, (not TOO hard because then you'll get dizzy, throw up and lose the whole thread), and see what we can learn. Welcome to the world of the oppressed! Sure, it may seem that gay threads get gross or go on ad nasuem. Maybe, maybe, this is one rare place that they can go on ad nauseum. Without fear of losing one's job or sullying up a neighborhood reputation. Maybe, maybe this is one rare place where they have the luxury of doing the same hasing/re-hasing that straights may do over their specific topic. Specifically, I think that the very insertion of "boy" in NAMBLA is a very tough area. You'll get survivors and those struggling to survive and those for, those against and those who think that NAMBLA may just be a new variation on the RHUMBA and those who aren't sure if it's the computer thing or the dance itself. The point is, once again, compassion and more compassion. Put it right out there full force if you sense someone who is struggling and maybe return a post with kindness. It seems to me that there are offensive threads based on somewhat inappropriate topics, (ie "how far can you stretch your ding dong without the creame filling messing up the carpet"), to that which is offensive on surface because it's an emotional issue. Certainly NAMBLA counts as in the latter category. Anyhow I've been around enough to know that this can be the start of a nasty backandforth. Wouldn't it be cool if we all stepped back and just went into the kitchen to make some cinnamon rolls? Neither side of the pu-pu platter means to be mean. MG - clearly ready for breakfast ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:10:07 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: (NJC) Now, how is it Nambla & Joni are related?? FMYFL@aol.com wrote: >Chris writes: > > > >>Geez, more messy stinky nasty poop juice all over the jmdl >> >> > >This reminds me, I heard Ben Affleck purchased a $105,000 gem-studded toilet >seat for fiancee Jennifer Lopez. > and there are starving people! Now wuldn't be a bit hard on her bum? lacerated cheeks? > Now that's something for the Jonifest >raffle !!! > >Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:12:45 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: ESSO BLUE NJC Lucy Hone wrote: > >"Opal Fruits, made to make your mouth water.. fresh with the tang of citrus, 4 >refreshing fruit flavours. ORANGE LEMON STRAWBERRY LIME....." but I would hear >the Esso Blue thing and instantly want to go in to "made to make your mouth >water" > > > yes and the changed the name to STARBURST!!! And Marathon got changed to the awful SNICKERS. they changed the recipe of Milk Way. Now Immac is called Veet, Jif is called Cif. MacDonald's is still called crap tho..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:14:24 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > an ex >husband & boyfriends until finally a current husband... > gosh haven't you been busy.... > my >female dog acts like a male however... > very common, especially if spayed. But also if she sees herself as Alpha. > >www.katebennett.com >"Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. >Brilliant writing, absolutely." >Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:19:28 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC >he is so economical with his words and sticks to point! veyr hard to keep a converstaion going beyond a few sentences< i love this colin! it makes me laugh to hear this from a man as i have often heard men complain about women's conversations wandering away from the point they want to stay on... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:19:31 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: "Exxon Blue" (njc) speaking of trademark colors & playing with dolls (or not) did you know that barbie has a patent on their particular color of pink? www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:19:32 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: dylan & ginsberg njc >However, it seems obvious that Dylan was influenced by the Beat poets (Ginsberg, Keroreac, etc), and Ginsberg even did a cameo appearance in one of Dylan's early videos (title?).< we were watching that on dvd last night- i think the song is SUBTERRANEAN HOMESICK BLUES where he's holding up signs & with ginsberg is changing clothes in the background talking to someone...who is the guy ginsberg is talking to? >Remember that Ginsberg was taken to court for obscenity after the publisher printed his epic poem "Howl." < my nj suburb parents took away my brentano books credit card when i came home from the mall with 'howl' & other beat poet literature...try as they might, they could not keep me from going that direction... i was part of a pretty amazing discussion with only a handful of people & ginsberg after one of his talk/reading/chant performances...darn that it never crossed my mind to get him to sign my copy of howl... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:16:52 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: nambla - njc ron wrote: >hi > > > >>>>>colin wrote: > >>>>>more importnatly, wally, why is the subject of child abuse >seen as a 'gay' thread? > >well, - man/boy would tend to kinda indicate that in this thread it >originally was :-) > > > only because people still do not understand that the vast majority of men who abuse boys(and girls) are heterosexual. they would not have sex with a man, only with a boy or girl or woman. man/boy abuse does mean gay man/boy abuse. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:30:19 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC Kate Bennett wrote: >>he is so economical with his words and sticks to point! veyr hard to keep a >> >> >converstaion >going beyond a few sentences< > >i love this colin! it makes me laugh to hear this from a man as i have often >heard men complain about women's conversations wandering away from the point >they want to stay on... > > > how about asking him how he is and he tells you what he did? wanting to snuggle up to watch tv and he thinks you want sex? or getting you hair cut from very long, shoulder length, to shaved like a marine and he says the day after'you look different, what have you done?'!!!! Or you do a really special dinner for your anniversary, salmon, champagne, the lot. he says 'that was nice' and falls asleep, still not knowing why he got the special dinner... i still wouldn't change him tho men just think differently-usually. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:45:57 -0400 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: Joni and My Media A reporter for our university newspaper did a story on my video collection. The interesting part was the Joni connection in the story, and which I, believe it or not, had nothing to do with it: Right now, its amazing what the faculty wants, Notaro said. As for students, they are pleased with the collection. Theres a high demand for America classics and 1920s comedy movies. Students love American classics, such as Casablanca, on DVD. DVD provides tremendous added value with its choices of languages, histories, commentaries, he said. Its definitely a point and click generation. Joe DellaGuardia, a sophomore in computer science at St. Petersburg College, a USF affiliate, checks out movies often at the Poynter Library. They have a lot of hard-to-find movies that you cant find anywhere, he said. Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light is one. Ive been looking for this for ages, the 31-year-old said. I cant find it anywhere; its out of print. The savings appeals to DellaGuardia too. I dont have the money to go to Blockbuster, he said. The selection here is awesome, you cant beat it. Sometimes, I feel like Im taking advantage of it. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:54:26 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: The Kinks' song about the suburbs (tangential JC) On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Dave Cuneo wrote (about suburbs): > >Ciao Joniphiles, > > I grew up in New York City and now live in the "suburbs" of >Wilmington, >DE. I love it! I hate the city. I love having a garage with an automatic >opener, a lawn and garden, a house that is way too big for just me, a >cellar >where I can keep all my vino. Suburbs rule, dudes. > > "But I love that Joni spears that perfect suburban >image and roasts it on her patio BBQ for everyone to >see! By 1975 it was about time..." > > Hey, the Monkees beat her to it with "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and the >Kinks did an early song about this topic too but I don't remember the name >of it. > > Ciao, dave. > Howdy, neighbor Dave! I have little doubt that you are referring to the Kinks' song that has the recurring line "Lazing on a Sunday afternoon." I think, but I am not sure, that the title thereof is "Sunday Afternoon." Tim Spong (right in the center of) Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:37:01 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Ms & Ps NJC Kate Bennett wrote: > an ex husband & boyfriends until finally a current husband...< colin- gosh haven't you been busy.... lol colin, not as busy as you might think & not on purpose, just looking for mr right...i had many years of NO BOYFRIENDS ALLOWED! believe it or not... > my >female dog acts like a male however...> colin- very common, especially if spayed. But also if she sees herself as Alpha. yes she is spayed & probably alpha ...although her breed (northern breed mix)is quite headstrong anyway... www.katebennett.com "Lyrically, it's a work of art overall. Brilliant writing, absolutely." Indie-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:35:06 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: RE: Childhood Sexuality NJC >>Do you think it's ok to fuck the dead?<< Yes, if they are adults and they consent. mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:53:48 +0100 From: colin Subject: Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC mike pritchard wrote: >>>Do you think it's ok to fuck the dead?<< >>> >>> >Yes, if they are adults and they consent. > you'll need a medium for the consent.... >mike in bcn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:55:22 EDT From: SoulQuest7@aol.com Subject: Re: how is Ginsberg, Dylan, & Joni are related?? Refuge of the Roads by Joni Mitchell I met a friend of spirit He drank and womanized And I sat before his sanity I was holding back from crying He saw my complicationsn And he mirrored me back simplified And we laughed how our perfection Would always be denied "Heart and humor and humility" He said "Will lighten up your heavy load" I left him for the refuge of the roads I fell in love with some drifters Cast upon a beachtown Winn Dixie coldcuts and highway hand me down And I wound up fixing dinner For them and Boston Jim I well up with affection Thinking back down the roads to then The nets were overflowingIn the Gulf of Mexico They were overflowing in the refuge of the roads There was spring along the ditches There were good times in the cities Oh, radiant happiness It was all so light and easy Till I started analyzing And it made most people nervous They just didn't want to know What I was seeing in the refuge of the roads I pulled off into a forest Crickets clicking in the fern Like a wheel of fortune I heard my fate turn, turn turn And I went running down a white sand road I was running like a white-assed deer Running to lose the blues To the innocence in here These are the clouds of Michelangelo Muscular with gods and sungold Shine on your witness in the refuge of the roads. In a highway service station Over the month of June Was a photograph of the earth Taken coming back from the moon And you couldn't see a city On that marbled bowling ball Or a forest or a highway Or me here least of all You couldn't see these coldwater restrooms Or this baggage overload Westbound and rolling taking refuge in the roads. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:10:48 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Childhood Sexuality NJC << mike pritchard wrote: >>>Do you think it's ok to fuck the dead?<< >>> >>> >Yes, if they are adults and they consent. > Colin replied: << you'll need a medium for the consent.... >> What? Don't the dead like small and large? --Bobi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:25:09 -0700 From: "theodore" Subject: RE: men and boys... NJC I'm gonna come down firmly on the other side ... throw out the baby dump the bathwater ... forget it brother you can go it alone ... you can't really have a moral compass if you want the state to protect you ... you either get a: freedom or b:security ... it's on, or off ...0 or 1 ... all or nothing ... pretty soon the police will be breaking down people's doors and arresting people for joining the wrong websites ... oops guess that happened ... and now we are down to weighing evils ...on ...off .... 0 ... 1 Yup ...no groups, no protection, no repression, no country, no benefit, no doubt ... Ted - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of AzeemAK@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 3:05 AM To: lulu.hone@virgin.net; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: men and boys... NJC In a message dated 13/04/2003 10:33:07 GMT Daylight Time, lulu.hone@virgin.net writes: << My stance is always one of absolute concern for the child.. working for a charity that deals extensively with the after affects of abuse, and works hard at trying to prevent it from happening, there can be no excuse for any adult (male of female) to engage in sexual activity with underage children. >> Thanks for this wonderful post Lucy, you have hit every nail squarely on the head. I was uneasy about some of the posts on this subject: while I didn't believe that anyone was promoting sexual abuse of children, I though some of the arguments advanced were giving the benefit of the doubt to NAMBLA, where it seems obvious that, despite the guff about civil liberties and not wanting to stifle young people's sexuality, at the end of the day it is about adult men wanting to fuck young boys and get away with it. As for Allen Kinsberg, I can believe that he may indeed have been a gentle soul who didn't advocate harming anyone. He was certainly a libertarian, and I think libertarians sometimes lose sight of their moral compass, throwing out the baby of essential protection of vulnerable groups with the bathwater of social repression. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:41:16 -0500 From: "mack watson-bush" Subject: Re: Re:NAMBLA, njc "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Maybe we should start up a really offensive thread by and for heterosexuals. > Are there enough of us on the JMDL to support that? You just did and that remains to be seen. It always comes down to us and them. how about us-- homophobes. And I don't find Wally sharing his soul offensive. mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Ms & Ps NJC --- kakki wrote: We did dress > up the cats occasionally, though LOL I still do that. They look so cute, like something out of Beatrix Potter. But they friggin' hate it! ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) From: hell Subject: Re: Re: Gertrude Stein of music NJC for sure Azeem wrote: > Hmm, where does that leave me? I have more female friends than male, > and like the fact that I can talk about all sorts of stuff with women > that some men don't readily talk about. I can feel very intimidated by > aggressively macho men. And since I got into the world of counselling > (both as client and now as a practitioner) I am meeting more guys who > can converse about matters of the heart, which is great - they do exist, > even hetero ones, honest! At the same time, my girlfriend considers me > rather dry! While I made the comment that I have more male friends than female, I should say that they aren't really "macho" kinds of guys. They're all reasonably intellectual, and capable of having real conversations. We've had some fascinating talks about all manner of subjects in the wee small hours of the morning! Admittedly large amounts of bourbon usually precede these discussions, but they do happen! > Then again, I also love sport, and sometimes pine for people I can > natter with about cricket, rugby, football etc - the sort of sad people > (like me) who might get up at 6.00am to watch a rugby match beamed live > from New Zealand, and with whom I can debate whether Michael Holding or > Dennis Lillee is the greatest fast bowler of my lifetime. 6.00am? Try 3am, and it happens quite often when the All Blacks are playing in Europe! But it's a pity we don't live closer, because I'm sure we could have some great conversations about matters of the heart AND who is the greatest fast bowler of our lifetimes - which is a tough one, because on paper, their statistics are nearly identical! But I'll go for Michael Holding, simply because he never played for a country that bowled the final ball in a one-day game under-arm, just to ensure a win! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:59:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2003 #130 "Exxon Blue" --- Wiloboy@aol.com wrote: > I enjoyed reading everyone's posts about Exxon Blue, > Since Joni says it's not important what it means to > her but what it means to the listener, I think all > your interpretations are right! > > I just put the words "Exxon Blue" into google, not > much came up, mostly "Passion Play" itself. Then I > thought why not try "Esso Blue" Some of you may > remember Exxon use to be called Esso. In the US, do they call the gas stations Esso or Exxon? Here in Canada, they're Esso. I'm sure they called them Exxon for a while, but switched back to Esso. I could be dreaming. Maybe they were always called Esso here and it was just the big bad head office company mothership overlord that they called Exxon? ===== Catherine Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:02:36 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: Where are the Weapons? (leftish political humor, may expire tomorrow, definitely njc) http://coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ patrick np - george michael - killer/papa was a rollin' stone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: hell Subject: Re: Re: I's A Muggin' Bobi wrote: > I think she works both ways, Hell. For example: the painting of the > burning WTC buildings. I seem to remember that Joni told Kakki and > Stephen that she took photos first from her TV before painting that > piece. But then at the time, photos of that scene were everywhere, so > she could have used her photos and others. Those photographs aren't really "art" though, are they? They're more "documentary". That's my point - where do you draw the line between using a photograph a piece of art (as I would class the cover photos for Hejira, for example) and using it to create another piece of art? Is it plagiarism or not, or does it depend on how the author of the photograph feels? Hell ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2003 #244 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)